How Ireland deals with issues relating to sex. What I think needs to be changed...

DOLEMAN

As we all know, Ireland has some serious issues when it comes to sex. It seems we'd rather keep our head in the sand, hoping our problems go away, rather than face the issues. Below are my thoughts on certain topics. I would appreciate your comments. My opinions are based on "what is best for society" rather then my moral issues (for example, I quite dislike the concept of abortion.)


Sex Education

Our sex education system is a mess. Young adults are leaving school knowing all about fallopian tubes but being clueless as to the responsibilities of safe sex, the consequences of unsafe sex, and why sex and love are not the same thing. Basically, our teenagers are learning by trial and error. With so much Chlamydia and pregnancies going around, our system is not working...

I think we should have professionals (not one of the teachers) giving candid sex education. This would include putting condoms on sex toys, all about sex diseases, consequences and the emotional aspects of sex. I think the key here is a professional teaches this rather than the uncomfortable science teacher...


Rapists/Pedophiles

Our current system isn't working. I see two problems.

1. I don't think rapists/pedophiles are criminals. Someone who has money problems and robs a bank is a criminal. Someone who abuses someone is mentally ill. I do not believe anyone chooses to be a rapist or pedophile. Rather than outcasting them we should try to understand them and help cure them. We should try to stop the shame someone may feel of being a sexual deviant and instead see it as an illness and encourage getting help.

2. Our current system is based on hoping the victim goes to the police and hoping we can catch the abuser. Obviously this isn't working. It will never solve the problem. I believe the way forward is trying to stop the attacks from happening in the first place. I believe some kind of anonymous counseling line which potential rapists/pedophiles can call and try to get help with their potential problem would help the abusers understand themselves more and understand the consequences of their potential actions. If this counseling system stopped some potential rapists/pedophiles from developing their problem further, many attacks could be prevented. I think long term it would help potential abusers be more open about their problems and stop staying off the radar.


Abortion

It should be the woman's choice. Sex education is the key to reduce unwanted pregnancies, but we have to accept that society has changed and some women want to abort their pregnancies.


Condoms

They're way too expensive. They need to be subsidised by the government.


Prostitution

Prostitution needs to be legalised. We can't just continue ignoring it and hope it goes away. With legalisation we can help control it (remove the criminal element), assure proper facilities for both the women and men, and make sure it is clean and safe. We can also tax it and use the money for sex education. I don't believe becoming a prostitute should be on the CAO form or anything like that, but accepting that some men want to pay for sex and some women want to be paid for sex is better than our current "it's wrong" mentality. Even if you think it is morally wrong, the prostitute and customer don't. I also believe we need clearer laws on what prostitution is. Our laws are extremely vague. Is a handjob for €50 illegal? If so, why exactly?


Sex Disease Clinics

Have you ever been to the sex disease clinic in St. James Hospital? It's pretty much the only place in Dublin where you can get screened for sex diseases. It's amazingly overcrowded. If you're not there at 7 in the morning and if you're not willing to wait all day to see a doctor, you won't be treated. The clinic is also only open two days a week. You also need a full day off work two weeks later to get your test results. It's ridiculous. So many people must be continuing with their infections, continuing to infect people, simply because they can't get treated. I know sex diseases are generally not life threatening, but making it extremely difficult to get treated is not clever.

LadyJ

DOLEMAN wrote:

Sex Education

Our sex education system is a mess. Young adults are leaving school knowing all about fallopian tubes but being clueless as to the responsibilities of safe sex, the consequences of unsafe sex, and why sex and love are not the same thing. Basically, our teenagers are learning by trial and error.

I think we should have professionals (not one of the teachers) giving candid sex education. This would include putting condoms on sex toys, all about sex diseases, consequences and the emotional aspects of sex. I think the key here is a professional teaches this rather than the uncomfortable science teacher...

I totally agree. I also think that it's time for both parents and teachers to stop treating sex and the discussion of sex as something embarrassing. It's a part of life and always has been,it's time we stopped being ashamed of that and start being realistic about the consequences of hiding or glossing over the facts with our children.

With so much Chlamydia and pregnancies going around

Lol. I found the phrasing of this funny.

Rapists/Pedophiles

Our current system isn't working. I see two problems.

1. I don't think rapists/pedophiles are criminals. Someone who has money problems and robs a bank is a criminal. Someone who abuses someone is mentally ill. I do not believe anyone chooses to be a rapist or pedophile. Rather than outcasting them we should try to understand them and help cure them. We should try to stop the shame someone may feel of being a sexual deviant and instead see it as an illness and encourage getting help.

I sort of agree about paedophiles being mentally ill but rapists are a different story imo. Rape can occur if a wife doesn't want to have sex with her husband and he forces himself on her etc. I don't know if it's always necessarily the action of a sick mind,rather than that of an impatient one!

Yes,rape situations vary so much that it's impossible to deem all rapists to be mentally ill.

Abortion

It should be the woman's choice. Sex education is the key to reduce unwanted pregnancies, but we have to accept that society has changed and some women want to abort their pregnancies.

Agreed. There are so many reasons that a woman might choose to abort her child so I'm fully behind the right to choose.

Condoms

They're way too expensive. They need to be subsidised by the government.

Well they aren't that dear! However,I do think they should be subsidised.

Sex Disease Clinics

Have you ever been to the sex disease clinic in St. James Hospital? It's pretty much the only place in Dublin where you can get screened for sex diseases. It's amazingly overcrowded. If you're not there at 7 in the morning and if you're not willing to wait all day to see a doctor, you won't be treated. The clinic is also only open two days a week. You also need a full day off work two weeks later to get your test results. It's ridiculous. So many people must be continuing with their infections, continuing to infect people, simply because they can't get treated. I know sex diseases are generally not life threatening, but making it extremely difficult to get treated is not clever.

I agree,there should be far more clinics like this and free testing for all,day and night. By having so few and by only opening them on certain days I feel that we are ignoring how serious a problem STDs are becoming.

Nevyn

They could start with taking the VAT off them.

http://www.ifpa.ie/news/index.php?mr=118

McGinty

I would concur with all your points except for the sections on paedophiles, you seem to have a great empathy for them, and your second point pertaining to counselling listening services for them is somewhat naive, if a person has a sexual preference for children, do they really want to be cured of that, or indulge in it? I am approaching this in a logical manner, a person only wants to be cured of something if it is affecting them, if they don't feel affected by whatever, then they don't want to be cured.

When a person demands sex/ sexaul acts from another, in particular a child, it is my perception that they are seeking control that they don't have inside, as well as feeding some form of sexual gratification, I'm not a paedophile so for me I cannot understand so I am only guessing here, but for me there feels a sense of truth that I've said. I don't know for some reason your points on paedophiles annoyed me, and Im not sure why.

DOLEMAN

Well, my thinking is that we have to do something. Our current system guarantees many ruined lives.

I would imagine a pedophile is aware of his strange sexual feelings long before he acts upon them. I would also imagine that there is a period where he feels ashamed or wonders wtf is wrong with him. If some kind of counselling service was available he could at least ring it, talk about his feelings and perhaps, because he doesn't feel alone anymore, accept there is a problem and work on solving it.

Of course, there will always be weirdos, but they're not really the people the service would be aimed at. It's aimed more at the normal bloke who feels something weird going on inside him...

I accept I may be completely misunderstanding how these guys think, but I think some kind of prevention system is defo better than doing nothing...

kiffer

Thaedydal wrote:

They could start with taking the VAT off them.

http://www.ifpa.ie/news/index.php?mr=118

I'm allways amazed at the fact that they have vat on them... it's like a sex tax : )
Packet of 3 costs what these days? 5Euro?
With Vat at 17.5% theres about 75cent tax on that.
So the Sex Tax is 25cent each time you have sex.

Unless you buy in bullk ... which to behonest as a teenager I would never have bought in bulk... it would have just wishful thinking, not to mention sexpensive.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that they should subsidised condoms but taking the tax of would help... unless the shops just put up their prices to take up the slack... and lets face it this is Ireland that would take about a week to happen.

Cantab.

Thaedydal wrote:

They could start with taking the VAT off them.

http://www.ifpa.ie/news/index.php?mr=118

[sarcasm]Unbiased source[/sarcasm] if there ever was one. Don't agree with promoting condoms - sends out the wrong message to people that casual sex is to be condoned in society. I think women who let themselves go off with random men, let themselves down and are most unattractive - I certainly would never consider marrying a slut.

There have been more STDs than ever before since the introduction of condoms (and in particular the pill) and they are obviously not the solution to the world's problems. People should have civilised relationships with each other and not behave like bunny rabbits and expect the taxpayer to pick up the tab because of their drunken misadventures.

Cantab.

Cantab. wrote:

[sarcasm]Unbiased source[/sarcasm] if there ever was one. Don't agree with promoting condoms - sends out the wrong message to people that casual sex is to be condoned in society. I think women who let themselves go off with random men, let themselves down and are most unattractive - I certainly would never consider marrying a slut.

There have been more STDs than ever before since the introduction of condoms (and in particular the pill) and they are obviously not the solution to the world's problems. People should have civilised relationships with each other and not behave like bunny rabbits and expect the taxpayer to pick up the tab because of their drunken misadventures.

And of course all women want children, right?

simu

Cantab. wrote:

[sarcasm]Unbiased source[/sarcasm] if there ever was one. Don't agree with promoting condoms - sends out the wrong message to people that casual sex is to be condoned in society. I think women who let themselves go off with random men, let themselves down and are most unattractive - I certainly would never consider marrying a slut.

There have been more STDs than ever before since the introduction of condoms (and in particular the pill) and they are obviously not the solution to the world's problems. People should have civilised relationships with each other and not behave like bunny rabbits and expect the taxpayer to pick up the tab because of their drunken misadventures.

Only drunk people use condoms? Or condom users don't pay taxes? Rly?

And nice double standards for men & women there. :rolleyes:

The situtation with regards to sex would improve in Ireland if there was less of your sort of attitude imho.

DOLEMAN

Cantab, why is casual sex wrong? Please don't give me the "STD" answer as you can catch an STD from your first ****...

I'm interested to hear your reasons. Also, are you religious?

Cantab.

DOLEMAN wrote:

Cantab, why is casual sex wrong?

Ok then, I take it you'd have no problem marrying a prostitute who engages in this kind of sexual activity on a daily basis?

DOLEMAN wrote:

Please don't give me the "STD" answer as you can catch an STD from your first ****...

Your surmise, not mine.

DOLEMAN wrote:

I'm interested to hear your reasons. Also, are you religious?

I am religous, yes. I wonder are you? Dogma of feel-good individualism perhaps?

Cantab.

simu wrote:

Only drunk people use condoms?

Didn't say this. Wasn't being specific in my use of the word 'drunken'. I would anecdotally say that huge numbers of people get into difficulties as a result of alcohol-fuelled sexual activities. My own experience being a visit to the college doctor on a Monday morning which was full of girls queueing up to 'see the nurse' in the STD clinic.

simu wrote:

Or condom users don't pay taxes? Rly?

You're arguing with yourself. Don't worry though, debating with a computer can make you think like this!

simu wrote:

And nice double standards for men & women there. :rolleyes:

Who are you? The politically correct police? I was talking about my own views on the matter from my own viewpoint - it's not as if I'm writing a government document.

simu wrote:

The situtation with regards to sex would improve in Ireland if there was less of your sort of attitude imho.

Funny that, because if you switch around a few words in that sentence, I would be inclined to agree with you! (although not in such an aggressive tone).

aidan_walsh

Cantab wrote:

Ok then, I take it you'd have no problem marrying a prostitute who engages in this kind of sexual activity on a daily basis?

Say what now? When did prostitution come into this?

Tar.Aldarion

DOLEMAN wrote:

I'm interested to hear your reasons.

He's catholic.

Religion is a personal belief, it and its morals should not be inflicted on others, not of the faith.

DOLEMAN

Cantab. wrote:

Ok then, I take it you'd have no problem marrying a prostitute who engages in this kind of sexual activity on a daily basis?

If what you're trying to say is "most men would prefer their girlfriends to be virgins", yes that is possibly true, but that doesn't mean a prostitute can't be a lovely attractive person or doesn't deserve love.

Personally, I try not to think too much about my girlfriends histories. It's their business, not mine. I also do not think sex is evil. It's as natural as eating, sleeping and breathing.

Cantab. wrote:

Your surmise, not mine.

STD's are a sad part of life. They are not punishment for having sex. It just so happens that bacteria/viruses have learned sex is quite an efficient way to pass fluids from one person to another.

Cantab. wrote:

I am religous, yes. I wonder are you? Dogma of feel-good individualism perhaps?

Surprise surprise. No I am not religious. You don't believe in condoms yet you believe in "religion" which is obviously - to anyone who's not brainwashed - total utter nonsense.

PS Cantab please don't hijack my topic with your religious viewpoints. There are religious forums where you are free to spout these views.

Cantab.

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

He's catholic.

Religion is a personal belief, it and its morals should not be inflicted on others, not of the faith.

Says who?! And you believe the dogma of liberalism should be the only belief allowed to be held in public? Drive all other beliefs underground?! I hate bringing up Nazi Germany, but it's the obvious analogy for what you've just proposed.

You'd be surprised the amount of people in public life who are Catholics (indeed members of Opus Dei and the Knights of the Campanile et. al.). Catholics live by the laws of the land and the laws of their God and should not be discriminated against because of their firmly held beliefs (just as Jews and Muslims are not to be victimised in society). I certainly won't be disregarding my religous viewpoints to satisfy some liberal consensus. Go Catholics!

simu

DOLEMAN wrote:

PS Cantab please don't hijack my topic with your religious viewpoints. There are religious forums where you are free to spout these views.

Yeah, tbh you seem to be trolling, Cantab. Or at least, arguing with you any further will turn what could be an interesting thread into a yawn-fest that's been done a zillion times before.

Dirk Gently

Cantab, its religious sheep like you who have their heads stuck in the sand with no sense of reality that contribute to the problem of poor sex education and openness in talking about issues. Your solution seems to be no sex before marriage. i.e. everybody should get married and settle down to make little catholic babies.(no doubt with women staying at home to look after the children) Thankfully we are not oppressed by a dominant church anymore and attitudes like yours are on the decline.

aidan_walsh

I hate bringing up Nazi Germany, but it's the obvious analogy for what you've just proposed.

No, it wouldn't. What he is proposing is that you live your life by the laws of the land, and let him live his as such without the laws of your God being thrust upon him by you.

You'd be surprised the amount of people in public life who are Catholics

Probably not. But I don't see what that changes.

Catholics live by the laws of the land and the laws of their God and should not be discriminated against because of their firmly held beliefs

Indeed. Neither should you discriminate against people who choose to live differently than you. Love one another, etc.

I certainly won't be disregarding my religous viewpoints to satisfy some liberal consensus!

He didn't ask you to. It was asked that you respect other view points, albeit in a roundabout fashion.

Go Catholics!

Whoooo!

clown bag

clown bag wrote:

Cantab, its religious sheep like you who have their heads stuck in the sand with no sense of reality that contribute to the problem of poor sex education and openness in talking about issues. Your solution seems to be no sex before marriage. i.e. everybody should get married and settle down to make little catholic babies.(no doubt with women staying at home to look after the children) Thankfully we are not oppressed by a dominant church anymore and attitudes like yours are on the decline.

To be fair...

If it is my opinion that people should have religion as a personal thing and decide their morals etc for themselves, that's as much opinion as believing that morals should be proscribed.
They're kind of on equal ground.

DOLEMAN

We all know the Catholic Churchs mentality towards sex is messed up (one word: pedophilia) so I don't think a topic about facing the realities of sex should have a religious aspect.

Religion and sex have nothing to do with each other, this is my topic, so can we cut out the God nonsense?!?! Thank you

Tar.Aldarion

Cantab. wrote:

Says who?! And you believe the dogma of liberalism should be the only belief allowed to be held in public? Drive all other beliefs underground?! I hate bringing up Nazi Germany, but it's the obvious analogy for what you've just proposed.

You'd be surprised the amount of people in public life who are Catholics (indeed members of Opus Dei and the Knights of the Campanile et. al.). Catholics live by the laws of the land and the laws of their God and should not be discriminated against because of their firmly held beliefs (just as Jews and Muslims are not to be victimised in society). I certainly won't be disregarding my religous viewpoints to satisfy some liberal consensus. Go Catholics!

There is no proof of a religion and catholics can live how they want, you can't make a law against using condoms because of your beliefs, just as we can't have a law making them use them.
Yes I accept there are catholics and they should have fredom of choice but you must accept that there are a lot of non catholics out there that have views like,

You're such an inspiration for the ways
That I'll never ever choose to be
Oh so many ways for me to show you
How the savior has abandoned you
**** your God
Your Lord and your Christ
He did this
Took all you had and
Left you this way
Still you pray, you never stray
Never taste of the fruit
You never thought to question why

It's not like you killed someone
It's not like you drove a hateful spear into his side
Praise the one who left you
Broken down and paralyzed
He did it all for you
He did it all for you

Oh so many many ways for me to show you
How your dogma has abandoned you
Pray to your Christ, to your god
Never taste of the fruit
Never stray, never break
Never---choke on a lie
Even though he's the one who did this to you
You never thought to question why

Not like you killed someone
It's Not like you drove a spiteful spear into his side
Talk to Jesus Christ
As if he knows the reasons why
He did it all for you
Did it all for you
He did it all for you..

and these people have the right to be free too.
You think you are right, whoopty doo, so do we, one can't force the other to do something.
Choice is the only fair solution.


What I am proposing,as said above, is that you live your life by the laws of the land, and let me live his as such without the laws of your God being thrust upon me by you.

Have respect for peoples choice and beliefs as you so fervently protect your own.

adonis

doleman is obsessed! im convinced...
anyway, to deal with the Hamish guy - cantab - or whatever...

he states that people should only conduct in meaningful relationships with regards to sex.. implying that meaningful relationships cannot be conducted without sex...which is a bit of a contradiction but thats the hamish bible for you..
I think most hamish people would agree that in today's world its time to use protection to avoid and hopefully arrest the spread of these DEADLY std's,
So he either has a deathwish or is just trying to impose some crumby moral view based on his own inadequacies in the modern meat market that is single life..
Also, doleman you mention something about pregnancies.. I think a high number of young pregnant women is indicative of a poorer society and there were monetary and social reasons for bearing children... With this countries new found wealth i would suggest that(planned) pregnancies will decrease....

Dont care about prostitution and i dont think all women want to have sex for money, nor do i think all prostitutes do...

Catholics live by the laws of the land

LOL --- troll...
all those good catholics that live by the law...ah hahaa thats one for the belly laughs...no catholics have ever been to jail..blah blah...

Cantab.

DOLEMAN wrote:

If what you're trying to say is "most men would prefer their girlfriends to be virgins", yes that is possibly true, but that doesn't mean a prostitute can't be a lovely attractive person or doesn't deserve love.

I wonder what makes you think that most men would prefer their wives to be virgins? On the prostitute issue, I doubt very much that the life choices of a prostitute would be compatible with mine. Also, I don't think I could ever reconcile myself in a loving, paternal relationship with someone with such a sexual history.

DOLEMAN wrote:

Personally, I try not to think too much about my girlfriends histories. It's their business, not mine. I also do not think sex is evil. It's as natural as eating, sleeping and breathing.

I'd agree with a lot of what you've just said above. Now what's your point?

DOLEMAN wrote:

STD's are a sad part of life. They are not punishment for having sex. It just so happens that bacteria/viruses have learned sex is quite an efficient way to pass fluids from one person to another.

Mmm. I don't know what you're trying to say here, but if you're trying to imply that I think STDs are 'punishment for having sex', then you're imagination defeats you're rationality.

DOLEMAN wrote:

Surprise surprise. No I am not religious. You don't believe in condoms yet you believe in "religion" which is obviously - to anyone who's not brainwashed - total utter nonsense.

I accept that you have firmly held beliefs, and whilst disagreeing with these beliefs, I don't need to go down the name-calling road. It seems all beliefs except Catholicism are accepted these days in this Ireland of 'tolerance', 'political-correctness' and 'progress'.

DOLEMAN wrote:

PS Cantab please don't hijack my topic with your religious viewpoints.

You're the one who asked me what religion I am. I hope you're not suggesting that because someone has religious beliefs (Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc.) on moral matters that they're not entitled to an opinion? I suppose you'd be in favour of only allowing aethists a vote in abortion referendums?

DOLEMAN wrote:

There are religious forums where you are free to spout these views.

Don't try and dismiss my argument based on an opposing religous viewpoints. I'm quite willing to engage with you on your home turf - that is (it seems), logic and rationality without delving into theology (as I have been doing). Although either plane is fine with me.

DOLEMAN

Cantab. wrote:

I wonder what makes you think that most men would prefer their wives to be virgins?

People get jealous. There is no deep meaning to my words...

Cantab. wrote:

On the prostitute issue, I doubt very much that the life choices of a prostitute would be compatible with mine. Also, I don't think I could ever reconcile myself in a loving, paternal relationship with someone with such a sexual history.

Absolutely no problem. I could never be with a Catholic. I respect your choice and I hope you respect mine.

Cantab. wrote:

I'd agree with a lot of what you've just said above. Now what's your point? etc. etc.

??????

Your religious beliefs have absolutely nothing to do with this topic. I don't know why you can't see this. Please go away.

kiffer

Cantab. wrote:

I hate bringing up Nazi Germany, but it's the obvious analogy for what you've just proposed.

GODWIN you loose the thread.

If you believe that people will go to hell for their sexual actions then that should be punishment enough for them, calling them sluts and whores is overkill.
I didn't notice you use any nasty terms for the men sleeping with the "sluts"

In short let them damn themselves and stop whining about how much fun the sinners are having, their action do not effect you in any way.

Dirk Gently

bluewolf wrote:

To be fair...

If it is my opinion that people should have religion as a personal thing and decide their morals etc for themselves, that's as much opinion as believing that morals should be proscribed.
They're kind of on equal ground.

To be fair to me wolfy, I have no problem with someone having their own personal belief, I was just pointing out that organised religion is something that does hold back sexual education in schools, with a lot of schools run by a religious organisation sticking their head in the sand on the subject. Might have changed now but it was only a few short years ago when I had to sit through a religion class 3 times a week listening to a hardcore catholic nut "teach" us about sex and relationships. Studying for state exams and getting religion forced down my throat at the same time.(not good)

personal belief - ok, putting your beliefs on others - not ok.

Conar

Cantab. wrote:

Ok then, I take it you'd have no problem marrying a prostitute who engages in this kind of sexual activity on a daily basis?

I don't think you're helping the argument along with comments like that.
He mentioned casual sex, not marrying a prostitute.
Personally I don't have a problem with prostitution but I wouldn't marry a prostitute as I wouldn't fancy sharing a partner!

Seriously though I think it's ridiculous to compare casual sex to prostituion.

clown bag

clown bag wrote:

To be fair to me wolfy, I have no problem with someone having their own personal belief, I was just pointing out that organised religion is something that does hold back sexual education in schools, with a lot of schools run by a religious organisation sticking their head in the sand on the subject. Might have changed now but it was only a few short years ago when I had to sit though a religion class 3 times a week listening to a hardcore catholic nut "teach" us about sex and relationships. Studying for state exams and getting religion forced down my throat at the same time.(not good)

personal belief - ok, putting your beliefs on others - not ok.

I know, and I agree, I'm just saying generally our belief that people should choose for themselves is about on equal footing with belief that people should not be let choose for themselves/obey a religious text, if the former is forced upon people and the latter is scorned even in believers...
It wasn't aimed quite at you, just at all the catholic-bashers.
If we're going to bash them, they're perfectly free to do likewise, and if we're going to respect everyone and their choices, that means respecting to some degree at least their conservative catholic views.
Disagreeing =/= being rude.

LadyJ

Cantab,frankly,your views make me foam at the mouth. However,in response to your first statement,promoting condoms is not promoting casual sex,it's promoting safe sex. It's helping people have sex without having a child a child every year.

I really hope you're old because it pains me to think that these kinds of views will still exist in 20 years.

Crucifix

kiffer wrote:

GODWIN you loose the thread.

Damn! I read through the thread waiting to get to the end and bring up Godwin's law, but you beat me to it.

Lots of great points Doleman. I especially agree about sex ed. We got the biology of the act, a vague indication that contraception exists but that the catholic church's official stance was that they were wrong, and a group of people who told us all about the magic of abstinence.
As for rapists/child abusers; I would say they are mentally ill, but in the same way a serial killer might be mentally ill. However I do think there should be work done with non-offending paedophiles, investigation into it's causes and, hopefully, ways to treat it.

Conar

I'm going a bit off topic here but its about prostitution so what the hell!
Did anyone ever see the strangeness in the fact that America allows people to be paid to have sex in front of the camera (i.e. for a porn flick) yet it is illegal for a man to pay a woman to have sex with them????

Following on from that, could people in the states not simply pretend they were setting up a porn movie to get around his law?

Cantab.

In summary, I refute this concept of individualism as being the answer to all our woes. Some might say but neither is Catholicism, and people are entitled to believe this (obviously me being a Catholic, I won't condone moral individualism). AFAIK, there is only one truth.

But Catholics are part of society too and have firmly held beliefs just as the liberal majority on this forum have. We will not supress our beliefs according to the popular vote of a particular time (often motivated by tax policy and party politics) and will stand firm against this wave of anti-Catholic sentiment that is becoming more and more prevalent in Irish society.

Good night and Go Catholics!

Cantab.

Cantab. wrote:

In summary, I refute this concept of individualism as being the answer to all our woes. Some might say but neither is Catholicism, and people are entitled to believe this (obviously me being a Catholic, I won't condone moral individualism). AFAIK, there is only one truth.

But Catholics are part of society too and have firmly held beliefs just as the liberal majority on this forum have. We will not supress our beliefs according to the popular vote of a particular time (often motivated by tax policy and party politics) and will stand firm against this wave of anti-Catholic sentiment that is becoming more and more prevalent in Irish society.

Good night and Go Catholics!

Hey, I was trying to help you out :rolleyes:

LadyJ

Cantab. wrote:

We will not supress our beliefs according to the popular vote of a particular time (often motivated by tax policy and party politics) and will stand firm against this wave of anti-Catholic sentiment that is becoming more and more prevalent in Irish society.

It's not anti-Catholic,it's pro not-wiping-out-humanity-with-STDs.

Cantab.

LadyJ wrote:

However,in response to your first statement,promoting condoms is not promoting casual sex,it's promoting safe sex.

There's no such thing as 'safe sex'.

LadyJ wrote:

It's helping people have sex without having a child a child every year.

At least you're being consistent in your argument, but your initial moral thinking is fundamentally flawed afaik.

LadyJ wrote:

I really hope you're old because it pains me to think that these kinds of views will still exist in 20 years.

No actually, I'm of the new breed of Catholic young people in Ireland and at 24, I'm here for as long as God wants me here!

Dirk Gently

meh, I think its fair enough to disagree with conservative catholic views while on a public thread dealing with sex attitudes. I would be part of the problem if I didn't disagree and simply left it unchallenged. I'm not stopping any individual practicing catholic methods, just saying they're not a solution to society’s problems. (Unless everyone willingly converted to Catholicism and was happy enough to restrict their own freedoms) I think its fair enough to catholic bash on this issue as I'm not so much bashing catholicism but I'm bashing catholicisms involvement in sexual education.
If I just earned myself a ban then so be it.

Cantab.

LadyJ wrote:

It's not anti-Catholic,it's pro not-wiping-out-humanity-with-STDs.

Yeah, because Catholics want to erradicate the non-believers with STDs... Get real.

Conar

Cantab. wrote:

Yeah, because Catholics want to erradicate the non-believers with STDs... Get real.

You're twisting her words there Cantab.

clown bag

clown bag wrote:

meh, I think its fair enough to disagree with conservative catholic views while on a public thread dealing with sex attitudes. I would be part of the problem if I didn't disagree and simply left it unchallenged. I'm not stopping any individual practicing catholic methods, just saying they're not a solution to society’s problems. (Unless everyone willingly converted to Catholicism and was happy enough to restrict their own freedoms) I think its fair enough to catholic bash on this issue as I'm not so much bashing catholicism but I'm bashing catholicisms involvement in sexual education.
If I just earned myself a ban then so be it.

Oh of course disagreeing is fine, I just meant let's have less of the "and we know all catholics are irrational so let's ignore them"

DOLEMAN

Cantab. wrote:

There's no such thing as 'safe sex'.

Fair point. "Safer sex".

If you leave out the religious aspect of your arguments, what are you left with?

PS I hope you know it's extremely rude to force your own moral and religious beliefs down someones throat. Please understand only you believe these views and you will not change anyones opinion. They are extremely extreme and not based on logic or reality.

LadyJ

Cantab. wrote:

Yeah, because Catholics want to erradicate the non-believers with STDs... Get real.

Well I'm afraid if condoms are forbidden then they'll be wiping out everyone ultimately,God-fearing or not!

Anyway,Cantab,I respect your opinions but I can't say that I agree with them in any shape or form. As long as you don't take away my contraception then I won't tread on your beliefs!

Cantab.

clown bag wrote:

meh, I think its fair enough to disagree with conservative catholic views while on a public thread dealing with sex attitudes. I would be part of the problem if I didn't disagree and simply left it unchallenged. I'm not stopping any individual practicing catholic methods, just saying they're not a solution to society’s problems. (Unless everyone willingly converted to Catholicism and was happy enough to restrict their own freedoms) I think its fair enough to catholic bash on this issue as I'm not so much bashing catholicism but I'm bashing catholicisms involvement in sexual education.
If I just earned myself a ban then so be it.

And why shouldn't a school with a Catholic ethos be in charge of its own sexual ethics program given that matters of faith and morals are central to the Church?

Liberal theology should not be allowed worm its way into Catholic schools under the auspices of 'sex education'.

Parents who want such views instilled in their children should send their children to aethist schools and stop demanding that the Church change their views to satisfy this liberal majority that I keep talking about!

Ok, I'm off for the night now. Thanks all for the discussion!

kiffer

The way forward should, IMHO, include honest and frank education about sex[1] and access to condoms, If you would like your children to abstain from sex untill their wedding night you can tell them that it's what God wants and if you've brought them up to be good christians then they'll believe you and abstain...
How ever they should still know the dangers involved and how to protect themselves should they choose to ignore your teachings.

[1] Children need to be told what's dangerous and what they can do to protect themselves, I have nothing against young people having sex but children really need to know that the only 100% safe sex is no sex, but should they choose to ignore such warnings ... which many will ... they need to know how to protect themselves.
Not telling them the truth about things and keeping them in the dark will just lead to trouble.

Teenagers are physicaly ready to have sex even if they are not emotionaly ready... you might say that god made them that way... If they don't know anything they'll just do what comes naturaly.

Telling them that such urges are evil isn't helpful...

Liberal theology should not be allowed worm its way into Catholic schools under the auspices of 'sex education'.

Telling them the actual effectiveness of condoms etc isn't liberal theology, it's cold hard fact. You can still follow it up with "but don't use them because it's wrong"

Conar

Cantab. wrote:

And why shouldn't a school with a Catholic ethos be in charge of its own sexual ethics program given that matters of faith and morals are central to the Church?

Parents who want such views instilled in their children should send their children to aethist schools and stop demanding that the Church change their views to satisfy this liberal majority that I keep talking about!

Firstly the catholic church already controls nearly every school in Ireland. If we could start again this might work.
Secondly I really don't think that segregation is the answer, it only ever causes problems!

Tar.Aldarion

Cantab. wrote:

Go Catholics!

Catholics...
Catholics...
Catholics, **** YEAH!
Coming again, to save the mother ****ing day yeah,
Catholics, **** YEAH!
Freedom is the not only way yeah,
Sinners your game is through cause now you have to answer too,
Catholics, **** YEAH!
So lick my butt, and suck on my balls,
Catholics, **** YEAH!
What you going to do when we come for you now,
it’s the dream that we all share; it’s the hope for tomorrow.

**** YEAH!

Jesus, **** YEAH!
STI's, **** YEAH!
The Pentecost, **** YEAH!
Ned Flanders, **** YEAH!
The Pope, ****, YEAH!
Christian Rock, **** YEAH!
The New Testiment, **** YEAH!
Revelation, **** YEAH!

**** YEAH!

The Host, **** YEAH!
Walking on water, **** YEAH!
zacharias, **** YEAH!
Abstinence, **** YEAH!
Weddings, **** YEAH!
Immaculate Conception, **** YEAH!
Knights of Columbus, **** YEAH!
Mortal Sin, **** YEAH!
Pectoral Cross, **** YEAH!
Women... (**** yeah, **** yeah)

Morals, **** YEAH!
One Truth, **** YEAH!
AIDS, **** YEAH!
The Seraphim, **** YEAH!
Bethlehem, **** YEAH!
Christmas, **** YEAH!
The Trinity, **** YEAH!
Our Father, **** YEAH!
Only one Truth, **** YEAH!
condoms (condoms..)
(**** yeah, **** yeah...)
Logic..
Jews...

Dirk Gently

Cantab. wrote:

And why shouldn't a school with a Catholic ethos be in charge of its own sexual ethics program given that matters of faith and morals are central to the Church?

Liberal theology should not be allowed worm its way into Catholic schools under the auspices of 'sex education'.

Parents who want such views instilled in their children should send their children to aethist schools and stop demanding that the Church change their views to satisfy this liberal majority that I keep talking about!

Ok, I'm off for the night now. Thanks all for the discussion!

Because its a state school system and even though the schools are run by religious organisations propper sexual education should be allowed as well as backward mythology. It's failing young citizens of this country to deny them an essential education. By only exposing them to backward mythology and not real life education these schools are delibertly perverting their education and endangering their health.

Conar

clown bag wrote:

Because its a state school system and even though the schools are run by religious organisations propper sexual education should be allowed as well as backward mythology. It's failing young citizens of this country to deny them an essential education. By only exposing them to backward mythology and not real life education these schools are delibertly perverting their education and endangering their health.

OK, I held back long enough.
Listen to clown bags comments carefully catholic people.
Imagine the majority of schools near you taught kids what you felt was the crazed teachings of a nonsensical cult. Then take it a step further and realise that in every town its the same so its not just the one you live in.
My daughter goes to a lovely Irish school. Great teachers, great emphasis on education and sport, but they also say their prayers in the line every morning which drives me absolutely crazy.
Religion should not be taught in school at all unless it is a private school in my opinion. Just like my beliefs (being that having any faith is ridiculous) should not be taught to kids.
My daughter sometimes comes home talking about Jesus, imagine your kids came home saying that Jesus didn't exist because all the schools were Jewish or even Atheist.
If you think kids need extra schooling on religion then set up a Sunday school system like the protestants (maybe presbyterians) have.

I hope I did not insult anyones faith as I simply mean to show you what its like for the other side.

LadyJ

Conar wrote:

OK, I held back long enough.
Listen to clown bags comments carefully catholic people.
Imagine the majority of schools near you taught kids what you felt was the crazed teachings of a nonsensical cult. Then take it a step further and realise that in every town its the same so its not just the one you live in.
My daughter goes to a lovely Irish school. Great teachers, great emphasis on education and sport, but they also say their prayers in the line every morning which drives me absolutely crazy.
Religion should not be taught in school at all unless it is a private school in my opinion. Just like my beliefs (being that having any faith is ridiculous) should not be taught to kids.
My daughter sometimes comes home talking about Jesus, imagine your kids came home saying that Jesus didn't exist because all the schools were Jewish or even Atheist.
If you think kids need extra schooling on religion then set up a Sunday school system like the protestants (maybe presbyterians) have.

I hope I did not insult anyones faith as I simply mean to show you what its like for the other side.

Yes,for "non-believers",our kids might as well be coming home preaching about the flying spaghetti monster.

Conar

LadyJ wrote:

Yes,for "non-believers",our kids might as well be coming home preaching about the flying spaghetti monster.

Exactly thats it in a nutshell.
Please people imagine you sent your kids to a private tutor and they had the cheak to start filling your kids heads with things that simply are not true.
You would not stand for it would you?
Now imagine a situation where your kids MUST be sent to a school where they filled their heads with such nonsense. That is the reality that some of us must live with!

It is simply not fair!!!!!!