'Fast trains' a step closer on Dublin to Cork route

_Kaiser_

dowlingm wrote:

Aer Arann allow booking up to -3hrs from flight time (just checked it). It's 4.53am Irish time and I can book the 8am ex Cork.

Ryanair - who also use the Navitaire system IIRC - don't allow web bookings but they do seem to allow phone bookings.

Aer Arann are no cheaper.. in fact going out next Saturday, returning Monday morning costs €98 in total! :eek:

Looks like driving or the bus is the only realistic option for those who'd be doing this trip regularly.

MarkoP11

Don't get me wrong the train service to Cork is third world, its slow and it is overpriced by virtue of no off peak discounts. On the upside the journey time by rail has fallen significantly in the last year, 25 minutes came off the 5:15 ex Cork, another 20 came off the 21:00 ex Dublin, another 10-15 minutes off nearly all trains next year and another 15-20 in the medium term, could be looking at up to 45 minutes reduction on some trains comparing 2005 times against 2010 ish, if the government gets the finger out and supplies the cash you could be looking at a 50 minute reduction on current times, with up to 1 hour 15 minutes saved on some of the 2005 times. At 2 hours the airlines would seriously feel the pinch that is if the fuel price situation didn't get them first

Problem with flying to Cork and in particular with Aer Arann is the fog at Cork Airport, colleagues of mine had a meeting in Cork one winter morning last year (the morning train would have been sufficiently early) but they weren't paying so Aer Arann, flight landed in Farranfore, then by road to Cork, meeting missed, return flight cancelled, needless to say the train was taken back to Dublin. Similar situation coming back from Galway half the team are getting the train half them are flying back, phone call from pub to confirm flight on time, nope cancelled all rush and get on the train.

The online booking widget will offer Adult, Child, Faircard, Weekend and Student tickets, it does. Its still not so intuitive and has a few issues with certain browsers but it does work

I've never experienced a intercity train failure, I've experienced 3 or 4 technical problems over the last 5 years leading to a delay of 10-15 minutes but never an incident where a locomotive was summoned to rescue, the stats are in the region of 1 failure per 10k to 20k miles (Dublin suburban is more like 30k, DART 60k+). Looks like some people are really unlucky or I have been lucky, but unlike Ryanair you can get a 50% refund for a delay more than an hour and 100% for more than 2 hours. To be fair compared to 5-10 years ago failures and delays were rife its got a whole lot better.

The new Cork train is nice, it has the electronic seat reservations, it has its problems like the ugly freight engine on the back, no one has been able to explain why the 200kph power cars were not ordered as the main order even if limited to 165kph the extra power and resiliency to failure would have a positive effect on journey times not to mention public perception, we have been here before back in 1984 CIE could have bought the UK IC125 powercars (with the bigger radiators), its either a lack of ambition, funds or both.

Bus Eireann don't seem terribly eager to compete with only 6 direct services a day to Cork, Aircoach have only 8 but claim 4 hours journey

Stark

Aircoach are now claiming 4 hours 30 mins since they decided to take in Kildare. I tolerated 4 hours because it was so cheap, but 4 hours 30 mins is a bit too much for me. The weekend is short enough without losing an additional 4 hours (down and back).

Slice

What I don't understand is why IE wont introduce an Enterprise-style service between Dublin-Cork with only two or three designated stops at major towns in between for all Dublin-Cork trains...

Stark

They have express trains from Dublin - Cork. Sometimes they're non-stop all the way, other times they stop in Limerick Junction and Mallow.

MarkoP11

Slice wrote:

What I don't understand is why IE wont introduce an Enterprise-style service between Dublin-Cork with only two or three designated stops at major towns in between for all Dublin-Cork trains...

That happens in December 2006, Thurles and Mallow are the designated stops with connections forward, the current timetable reeks of parish pump politics having to call at every town on the way

There is an almost an unbroken suburban service across the entire Belfast line that avoids stoping everywhere

I can already hear the local politicos cry fowl despite getting a better net service, there is a strange assumption that everyone is entitled to a direct service to Dublin from every little town think again a proper efficent service will never work that way and from what I have seen a very nice arrangement of connections is to be put in place which will mean an end to people travelling in the wrong direction as many do now

bk

MarkoP11 wrote:

I've never experienced a intercity train failure, I've experienced 3 or 4 technical problems over the last 5 years leading to a delay of 10-15 minutes but never an incident where a locomotive was summoned to rescue, the stats are in the region of 1 failure per 10k to 20k miles (Dublin suburban is more like 30k, DART 60k+). Looks like some people are really unlucky or I have been lucky, but unlike Ryanair you can get a 50% refund for a delay more than an hour and 100% for more than 2 hours. To be fair compared to 5-10 years ago failures and delays were rife its got a whole lot better.

Your very lucky, in the past 6 months I've experienced three.

Cork to Dublin twice in the last 3 months on the 5:30 express. Once for 1h 30min and required a new engine, the other time was a 1h delay, didn't require a new engine, but headed to Dublin fairly slowly.

The other time was Dublin to Cork at 5:00. We actually didn't even get out of Hueston. We had just left the platform when the engine broke down!! We had to wait 30min to get a new engine which pushed us back into Heuston. IR told us that we would have to get off and get on the next train. But they didn't open the doors. After about 10 minutes of waiting for the doors to open they came back on and said that they had gotten a new engine and would leave shortly. Total delay was 1 hour.

And I travel only once a month.

BTW It would be nice if IR told the passengers about getting their money back, because I was never told.

Actually thinking about it, I've been getting the Cork to Dublin for 5 years now, it has seemed to get far less reliable over the last 12 months!

In some ways it is more reliable in that when the train doesn't fail, it does make the trip on time, when in the past it would often be be 10 - 15 minutes late. However there seems to be far more major failures these days, then in the past.

Interestingly I was talking to a Taxi driver leaving Hueston one day after a break down and he said that it was about the third time it had happened in the month alone.

John R

MarkoP11 wrote:

Bus Eireann don't seem terribly eager to compete with only 6 direct services a day to Cork, Aircoach have only 8 but claim 4 hours journey

Bus Eireann put in for an hourly service with every second one non-stop but were refused by the DoT.

Stark wrote:

Aircoach are now claiming 4 hours 30 mins since they decided to take in Kildare. I tolerated 4 hours because it was so cheap, but 4 hours 30 mins is a bit too much for me. The weekend is short enough without losing an additional 4 hours (down and back).

The online timetable still gives 4 hours but in most cases with those stops it is unrealistic and at peak times with heavy traffic there is no chance.

Unoficially Bus Eireann run most busy services with one express bus that runs non-stop except for a rest break and a following bus that services all the intermediate towns. Most of the weekend runs and a good deal of the weekday ones are allocated two coaches for this.

craigybagel

Just to break down all the arguements on this page and make things more simple. Im a student from Dublin but studying in Cork and have to make the journey more often than most, and ive done so using all possible methods. The car is always going to be the quickest and cheapest method and nothing IE or the airlines do can change that. So the people who dont drive do so because they either cant or they dont want to. So theyre left with 3 choices: the bus, the plane or the train.

Most of these people wont use the bus. Its officially 4 hours 20 mins Aircoach 25mins BE and over the course of the last year the record for me for quickest journey stands at 3 hrs 50 mins. This was a freak occurence and the average is about 4hrs 15 mins. Worst case though was a 6hr 30 min trip one Friday (less said about that the better). The journey is also cramped and you only have access to food and a toilet during the break at Urlingford. Yes at €18 return its cheap and for that reason alone (its even less for a student) i use it more than the other methods but if someone else is paying, or im unusually rich il find another way to go everytime i can, and most people who can afford to will do same.

So for most people it comes down to the train or the plane. City centre to city centre the plane is at least 2 hrs 30 mins (30 min journey to Dublin Airport, 40 min check-in, 50 min flight, 10 min to get from plane to bus at out-dated and cramped Cork airport, 20 min bus journey to Cork), but thats the absolute minimum with perfect connections, and realistically itd be almost impossible to get it below 3 hours. Costs start €60 return (€45 flights plus €15 worth of bus fares at either end) but this can quadruple depending on when you book your flights. The train is 3 - 3.5 hours and costs about €65 return (both including bus transfers at each end, although the need for one at cork is debatable), but that fare stays the same regardless of when the ticket is bought.

MarkoP11

craigybagel wrote:

The train is 3 - 3.5 hours and costs about €65 return (both including bus transfers at each end, although the need for one at cork is debatable), but that fare stays the same regardless of when the ticket is bought.

Student return (open return valid 30 days) is €38.50 €4 less than the cheapest possible air fare

dowlingm

One advantage the plane has over the train is the hotels at Cork and Dublin Airports. If IE were on the ball they would have excellent, reasonably priced conference facilities at/near Kent and Heuston. This would facilitate people who are solely in town for a meeting and want to be able to stay until the last possible minute and then have a short transit time to being in their seat back to the other end.

Putting wifi on IC trains would offer a huge advantage to trains as then business travellers could be in contact at all times, whereas there is that hour of dead time from boarding to deplaning with planes. If you're talking about people who can bill for time spent on the phone or working on documents over private internet the cost of a CityGold seat would be paid for before half-way.

The aim should be that CityGold be full always, with Standard being "gravy".

MarkoP11

Part of the current problem is the fact its not uncommon for citygold to be booked out, hourly city gold from next year will give the flexibilty to return in comfort regardless of any early or late finsh

craigybagel

MarkoP11 wrote:

Student return (open return valid 30 days) is €38.50 €4 less than the cheapest possible air fare

True im just pointing out how it is for most travellers. Students are few and far between on the train when the bus is less than a third of the price.

DerekP11

There is currently no incentive to bus companies to offer express non stop inter city trips from Cork-Dublin-Cork. Some do and do it successfully, but traffic congestion in certain towns has forced a lot of them to provide a stop to maximise income.

Lets think outside the box for a minute.

I'll use Dublin - Cork - Dublin as the most quoted example.

A long distance journey like this one has 2 types of passenger.

1. A car owner for business/pleasure.
2. A non car owner for business/pleasure.

Considering that Ireland is engulfed in a car ownership frenzy that may take up to 30 years to calm down, enticing drivers from their cars may prove difficult no matter what you do. So the real market leader and or threat, depending which way you look at it, is the non car owning traveller. The choices are as follows.

1. Bus
2. Train
3. plane.

Current road conditions limit the ability of a bus service, but make the car option reasonably attractive. Combined with our ability to buy new cars and the need to drive them, this makes the car option attractive. Add in a new motorway and it's gonna take years to get that passenger back. So the existing Bus passenger with a cheap fare, but long journey time is a possibility. However with the new motorway and more non-stop services(thats when they will be attractive and profitable to operators) cost will over rule service for many. The existing train service will not compete. Currently the biggest off putter for the bus is the laborious journey time. That will reduce significantly for end to end journey times with the advent of a motorway. (combine this with QBC developments) Dublin to Cork express bus will be achievable in 3 hours 15 mins. No question. There will be a big saving versus the train fare for a journey that may be 30 mins longer by bus. Thats attractive. As for the plane option... Heuston station is just as far for people as Dublin Airport. Same situation exists in Cork for Kent or Cork Airport. But 40 min check in rule remains a problem. Only for the idle rich in my opinion.

However I fear the real death knell for inter city rail is on the other inter urban routes such as Waterford and Galway. Motorway/Dual carraigeway versus line speeds/service far short of what Cork will have spell disaster. And its on these routes that bus transport is alive and well with Nestors, Citylink and Kavanaghs all bangin it out with gusto.

Cork may survive, but the others could be in real trouble.

popebenny16

At the moment, with the motorway finishing at Portaoise you can get to the following:

This is from the M50 only, add more time getting inwards:

Portlaoise 50 mins
Roscrea add 25 min
Nenagh add 20
Limerick add 30 (to ring road)

Less than two hours to Limerick right now. Half of that not on motorways. Add a motorway and reduce it further. The new train service to Limerick will take up a lot of the slack left behind by the CDE and the new timetable, pickign up at most of the intermediate stations. At the moment, the 1705 express gets from Heuston to Templemore in about 1.15. I can drive it in 1.35, including an 80kph strectch with three towns of 50kph from Abbeyleix onwards.

So, where does this leave the train service? Can they get the train competing along those lines? Of course they can, but it'll take a wallop of money to do it. Is 200kph the solution? Probably, it'll benifit the limerick galway lines as well, partly.

But will it be too late?

dowlingm

yeah but it's the bit from the M50 in that's the problem - with interconnector and quad tracking (the little bit they are actually going to do) M50 > Heuston is going to be a lot faster than any car can manage (we hope!)

As for those doing calculations on car costs - don't forget to add tolls

craigybagel

popebenny16 wrote:

At the moment, with the motorway finishing at Portaoise you can get to the following:

This is from the M50 only, add more time getting inwards:

Portlaoise 50 mins
Roscrea add 25 min
Nenagh add 20
Limerick add 30 (to ring road)

Less than two hours to Limerick right now. Half of that not on motorways. Add a motorway and reduce it further. The new train service to Limerick will take up a lot of the slack left behind by the CDE and the new timetable, pickign up at most of the intermediate stations. At the moment, the 1705 express gets from Heuston to Templemore in about 1.15. I can drive it in 1.35, including an 80kph strectch with three towns of 50kph from Abbeyleix onwards.

So, where does this leave the train service? Can they get the train competing along those lines? Of course they can, but it'll take a wallop of money to do it. Is 200kph the solution? Probably, it'll benifit the limerick galway lines as well, partly.

But will it be too late?

It is hard for rail to compete on a journey that doesnt invole the city centres, but how many people want to travel from Clondalkin-Glanmire or to the LImerick ring road. Add in city centre traffic and suddenly rail becomes a lot more reliable. One memorable Cork-Dublin journey for me took and hour from Rathcoole to the Red Cow and another hour from Heuston to BusAras.

MarkoP11

One interesting problem is certain towns on the Cork rail line have zero on no direct bus services to Dublin, eg Thurles, I managed 64 minutes by rail for the 86.4 miles, 81mph ave back in 1997, it was routine to do it in 65 minutes flat in the good days. Best time by car from the city centre is looking at 1:50 ish, the quays are horrible at the best of times.

Victor

DerekP11, I think you overstate the arguments for car and bus.

Car means (generally) owning a car, which a lot of urban (not sub-urban) dwellers just don't care about. Its alot of time, money and effort.

A bus can't do Cork-Dublin non-stop (nor can the car in practice) which means either a break or a change of driver on the way, that eats into time and/or money. Buses are legally limited to 80km/h (not that they stick to it), the would need to average 80km/h to do it in 3h20, no stops, no tolls, no congestion

Transport21 Fan

Personally I consider constant upgrading the Dublin-Cork line to be another version of reopening the Western Rail Corridor, just on a larger scale - at some point you have to balance the cost of the constant cycles of upgrade against the benefits and I am starting to beleive that we are approaching this already. How much money will it take to make the Inter-city rail network an alternative to the road transport once the motorway network is completed? I reckon billions and billions.

At some point in the next 20 years Ireland is gong to have to think about a high-speed line if Inter-City rail services in this country are to have any real meaning or modal advantage, and if we are going to spend billions on making victorian railways work in the 21st century, then why not move to the next level? I know a lot of you think it is bull**** (and it is for now) as Ireland does not have the population density for high-speed, but Dublin did not have the population density for a Metro when it was first proposed in Platform for Change either. The goal posts changed and the rest is history.

Without going into a WoT type "future-proofing" argument, upon completion of the motorway programme, I honestly only see a future for commuter rail in Ireland with Inter-City on the current network a perpetual under-achiever.

Look at the Enterpirse, it an over-hyped basket case and carries few passengers. There is no hope for it at all really, as the Interconnector won't provide a chance to enhance it and the M1 is a fantastic motorway to drive on. So we might as well admit that the Enterprise is failed project living on life support and to make it right would require huge sums of money.

The only way we will ever get serious rail travel in Ireland at modern inter-city levels will be new arterial high-speed line between Belfast, Dublin and Cork. Sounds like bollox now, but it's not as much bollocks as it first appears.

The IE Inter-city would cost so much to bring up European standard, that it will become more and more economically viable to look at high speed within a couple of decades if not sooner as our economy and population expands. Making a half-pointy train, have both ends pionty and straightening out a few curves here and there in the Midlands won't do it for Inter-City rail travel in Ireland, especially when the motorway programme is completed.

In recent times I have notice a major collaspe in passenger numbers on the Sligo line in the last year or so. I know a lot of this has to do with the crap 2900's, but driving from Sligo to Dublin is getting a lot easier and a high quality express bus service would probably kill the rail line altoghter. The Sligo line is providing a microcosm of the future of all inter-city lines I believe - the better the roads get, the less the train get's used for inter-city travel. Sligo today, Cork and Limerick tomorrow? Anyone who sincerely cares about the future of rail transport in Ireland and does not see the motorway programme as a major danger to Inter-City rail transport is being very naieve.

High-speed or partial high-speed inter-city rail in Ireland will happen one day, not for another 20 years or so, but it will happen. There comes a point were we can continue to tinker with the IE network and spend vast amounts of money trying to bring it up to a serious standard, or we can start with a clean sheet of paper and do it properly. I see the latter choice becoming a less distant option in the years to come.

Victor

Now, now T21F, you're being just a little cynical (not bad, both don't overplay it or CIE will get into the toll road business).

The backbone of the system is OK, yeah the whole system needs maintenance and upgrade, but building a whole new railway from Cork to Dublin is unnecessary, it would simply be repeating the mistakes of the past and present of having one piece of underused infrastructure competing with another piece of underused infrastructure, making them both uneconomical.

Building it in a big bang risks too much risk both financials, technically and politicly - they won't risk road projects over 40km, never mind 500km of HSR.

Slice

So what will happen to intermediate stations that aren't Thurles or Mallow? Will they be served by suburban services feeding into Dublin or Cork?

MarkoP11

You get the Limerick train every 2 hours get on/off at Thurles and wait 10-12 minutes for the connection which is at the same platform. Cork trains may stop in Charleville as well as Limerick Junction in rotation giving Limerick a hourly service. Given there will be twice as many Cork trains and an increase in Limerick direct services, all to a clockface timetable it looks like a good deal provided Irish Rail can get the punctuality aspect sorted out, thats the big question if they can it will be a revolution in rail travel

The precise details are not known but it will mean an end to having to travel the wrong way to start/complete a journey from smaller stations, thats a big complaint and quite rightly as it adds a huge amount of time to journeys. Not everyone is traveling to and from the end stations that said stopping at every station all the time is wasteful since it makes the journey much longer and demand is sensitive to journey times

popebenny16

Actaully, you'd be surprised how many people do go stright from the Surburbs and off, without going into the City Centre, that's why i started at the M50.
You can also add into the following to a rail journey:

Time to get to station, by car (therefore same time as if you are heading down the country and so neutal waste), or by bus (remember to leave early incase you miss the bus and therefore your train) and actually hanging around the station to ensure you get a seat (half an hour to be safe).

If youre getting to Heuston or Connolly by bus chances are you'll have to change and get a 90 or LUAS, that can be fun at times, add some more time.

All of the above would easily eat up the same time it would take you to get from home to the red cow. Do the same at your destination.

Personally I consider constant upgrading the Dublin-Cork line to be another version of reopening the Western Rail Corridor, just on a larger scale - at some point you have to balance the cost of the constant cycles of upgrade against the benefits and I am starting to beleive that we are approaching this already.

Ha ha, I said this over on P11 where we laughed about it for days on end!! :rolleyes:

BTW, if we wanted HSR we should have built it right down the middle of the new motorways. But then again, this aint Germany, Japan, Korea, (insert a few more T21 I coudnt be arsed) so we aint getting it.

DerekP11

Victor

For a start we'll agree to differ on whether or not you can drive Dublin to Cork or vice versa, non-stop. It would depend on the definition of "stop". I currently drive Dublin - Cork "non-stop". This means, I don't stop for fuel(full tank) or a break(don't need one) Traffic lights are the only stop, but i'd consider that to be part of driving as I must remain in control of the vehicle. Current drive time at 7.30 in the morning from West Dublin is 3 hours 15 mins to the jack Lynch tunnel. I can't break speed limits as my particular vehicle is not capable of high speed. With completion of a non-stop route from Newlands Cross to the Tunnel, speeds of 100/120kph are possible on a continous basis. Its actually the least stressful way to drive.

As for the bus. Ive spoken to Dublin - Cork regulars. They don't like it. They choose it because of the price. They dread Abbeyliex, Mitchellstown and Fermoy. Another horror scene is getting stuck behind tractors(a huge problem on Irelands inter urban routes) However they already see the potential for decreased journey times as the Kildare/Monasterevan and Cashel bypasses have shown.

I know its difficult for lovers of rail travel to fully appreciate where the likes of myself and T21fan are coming from on this. One of my own colleagues in P11, Mark Gleeson, wouldn't fully agree with me. But thats not a problem, so long as someone is keeping an eye on it. I love rail travel, but I also have to drive the inter urban routes for work reasons. This gives me the chance to look at things from two perspectives. Major nations like the UK, France and Germany, lead the way in HSTs to counteract the threat from motorways. Seen as though we are in the middle of a road building frenzy that will undoubtedly reduce drive times, its a pity our railway is failing to address that. Inter City journey times in Ireland are still similar to the 1970s. I don't think we're out of the woods yet.

John R

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Personally I consider constant upgrading the Dublin-Cork line to be another version of reopening the Western Rail Corridor, just on a larger scale - at some point you have to balance the cost of the constant cycles of upgrade against the benefits and I am starting to beleive that we are approaching this already. How much money will it take to make the Inter-city rail network an alternative to the road transport once the motorway network is completed? I reckon billions and billions.

As has already been outlined a reduction to a 2hr journey time is realistic with a relatively modest investement. This would keep the speed advantage with rail.

Despite the motorway improvements our cities are not set to become less congested for cars, quite the opposite. Once you reach the end of the motorway in peak times you are still going to be crawling for extended periods.

The current system pushes car owners into a mindset of using their cars to the max, all the premiums on owning the thing mean adding additional trips is relatively inexpensive, until a Government changes that it will be very difficult for rail to compete no matter what the journey times.

Buses will not gain as much from motorways as people think, with a top speed of 100kph 3h15 will be the best possible time and that is without significant traffic in the cities.

To suggest that the rail line is doomed is just daft, if there was a decline or even a sign of decline in use then perhaps you would have a point.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

At some point in the next 20 years Ireland is gong to have to think about a high-speed line if Inter-City rail services in this country are to have any real meaning or modal advantage, and if we are going to spend billions on making victorian railways work in the 21st century, then why not move to the next level? I know a lot of you think it is bull**** (and it is for now) as Ireland does not have the population density for high-speed,

I don't necessarily think it is BS but for now anyway I believe that a proper attempt at maximising the current line's potential is the way forward. It can be financed internally at levels that wouldn't trigger huge political involvement, would require little land acquisition and could be implemented rapidly.

The sort of money, infrastructure and time needed to make speeds above 125mph worthwhile would be a huge barrier to getting it done at all and I am not at all sure the journey time reductions would be worth it.

The biggest obstacles I can see are Dublin and Cork. To make a HSR worthwhile on the route it would need to have as much high speed running as possible. That would mean a new line running right from city centre to city centre, finding a suitable surface alignment for either city would be near impossible, in the case of Dublin it would be a struggle getting within 15 miles.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Look at the Enterpirse, it an over-hyped basket case and carries few passengers. There is no hope for it at all really, as the Interconnector won't provide a chance to enhance it and the M1 is a fantastic motorway to drive on. So we might as well admit that the Enterprise is failed project living on life support and to make it right would require huge sums of money.

I think that is an unfair assessment, In my experience it has good loadings on most journeys. I have been on a number of services with 80-90% of seats taken.

I recently took the early bus (6am from Dublin) to Belfast as I needed to be in by 9. It was quick and just about kept to the timetable, apart from a 5 minute delay on the M1 hard shoulder for a sick passenger. Problem was as soon as we got near Belfast we were reduced to a crawl along the motorway for about 5 miles. A 2h30 journey that we were on course for achieving turned into a 2h55 one.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

In recent times I have notice a major collaspe in passenger numbers on the Sligo line in the last year or so. I know a lot of this has to do with the crap 2900's, but driving from Sligo to Dublin is getting a lot easier and a high quality express bus service would probably kill the rail line altoghter. The Sligo line is providing a microcosm of the future of all inter-city lines I believe - the better the roads get, the less the train get's used for inter-city travel. Sligo today, Cork and Limerick tomorrow? Anyone who sincerely cares about the future of rail transport in Ireland and does not see the motorway programme as a major danger to Inter-City rail transport is being very naieve.

A similar thing happened with the Rosslare line, the ability of a 4 car 2900 rail car to cope with demand for 6 months says it all. However I think the poor quality of the rail product has more to do with it than raw journey times.

Long journey times, high fares and poor quality product are for sure a losing combination but dealing with the fares and quality issues with competitive if not world beating journey times will give an attractive product. The benefit from spending billions to cut the journey from 2hrs to what 1h10 is IMO marginal at best.

I am willing to be convinced otherwise mind, I could certainly think of worse things for public money to be spent on (more road building being one of them) I just don't buy the doom and gloom outlook.

Transport21 Fan

Victor wrote:

The backbone of the system is OK, yeah the whole system needs maintenance and upgrade, but building a whole new railway from Cork to Dublin is unnecessary, it would simply be repeating the mistakes of the past and present of having one piece of underused infrastructure competing with another piece of underused infrastructure, making them both uneconomical.

This is a similar argument to the whole "who needs a metro or a Luas, sure don't we have CIE..." - argument of the 1990's.

Back then and until quiet recent years, I would have agreed with this. But seeing just how good, highly successful and reliable the Luas, is along the promise it holds out for the future, made me, and a lot of other people in this country think outside the CIE box - and it was not as frightening and unviable as we had been conditioned to accept.

Honestly, would any of us now want the Luas and Metro projects in T21 to be cancelled now that we have all come around to potential of them. The "sure don't we have CIE" argument holds no water anymore as Irish people are finally learning to have certain expectations of public transport. The sad reality is that the most far reaching plans which IE have for Inter-City rail development in this county is just not a good enough alternative to our lovely motorways and new roads (and they really are lovely too).

We now have a certain expectation of public transport in this country and CIE playing 'follow the leader' while the motoways network expands is a doomed strategy when we look at Inter-City rail travel beyond T21 (which apart from the WRC madness is mainly a charter for rail commuting more than anything else).

CIE's tactic in the past in terms of rail transport development in this country was "ignorance is bliss" and "they'll take what we give they have no choice" - but Irish people are no longer the suckers who are willing to accept shoddy public transport that they once were, and we nearly all have cars to drive on them fantastic new roads. This is a very real, potentially fatal combination for Inter-City rail travel in this country.

If I was a betting man and I was going to put money on the Inter-City public transport option of choice in 20 years time, without hesitation I would place all my wager on Bus Eireann.

The exsisting rail network would serve a different function upon completion of a new HSR arterial route. It would become mostly commuter lines, and there would be some closings and major service reductions. There would be no contradition between the new HSR line from Belfast, Dublin and Cork and the Dublin-Cork Inter-City and the Enterprise as these services would be history. This is what is happening all over Europe. The timetabled Orient Express (the real one, not the luxury one for toffs) was one of many Eurocity rail services cancelled in the late 1990's as the TGV and ICE networks expanded. The same would happen here in Ireland with the Enterprise and so forth being binned as the Northen Line becomes offically a commuter line (which is it is at this point anyways if we are going to be honest about it)

Another thing, the more I think about the Interconnector, the most it seems like an awful missed oppertunity to just run DARTs through the heart of the city centre. What's wrong with one day going into Stephen's Green station and getting a HSR to Cork or Belfast? The Germans still run some of their ICE network over new lines in the countryside and then use the old DB IC lines into city centres. I have a freind who is a DB driver in Stuttgart and until recently drove double decker commuter trains on the same tracks as the ICE in and out of Stuttgart Hbf and you want to see the headways and frequencies they operate these trains at, it would land Anto and Deco in Loman's and yet the Germans think nothing of it. Because it makes sense and combines HSR and exsisting infrastructure in a very economical manner.

So we have a heavy rail tunnel being built under the city centre, so there is the major cost of the new arterial Belfast-Dublin-Cork HSR sorted already. Like I said, the more you think of this idea, without CIE glasses, the less bonkers it becomes.

I honestly can't see IE inter-city rail services being meaningful in 20 years time and that's not being any more cynical than the people who say the oil will run out, as we all know that hybrid and electric cars will solve that problem. The way I see it, we have to considered HSR in this country as some point or the Inter-City rail network dies.

Transport21 Fan

John R wrote:

To suggest that the rail line is doomed is just daft, if there was a decline or even a sign of decline in use then perhaps you would have a point.

I never said any such thing - read my post again. I said that Inter-City rail services has a very dodgy future in this country - as an alternative to Intercity motorways and Aer Arran is were the potential fatal scenario lies, not the actual rail ine itself. That's not the same thing as saying the Northern Line and Dublin-Cork rail line is doomed to closure.

They will always have a function for commuter and freight even if an arterial HSR line is built. They might even have a brighter future in many ways and can be exclusively developed with commuter services.

This is becomming a very intersting thread BTW.

popebenny16

Another thing, the more I think about the Interconnector, the most it seems like an awful missed oppertunity to just run DARTs through the heart of the city centre. What's wrong with one day going into Stephen's Green station and getting a HSR to Cork or Belfast?

I would imagine that theres no reason why not, IF the HSR's are electric. Isnt there some regulation forbidding diesel going underground?

Anyhoo.....

Why does the rail service to Cork (as an example) HAVE to compete with the motor car anyway? They can compliment each other. Is the money justified in building and putting into place a train service to compete? Yes, there are many hidden benifits, enviiromental ones come to mind straight away, but does that justify spending millions just to cut down on the journey times?
How much can be cut out right now by:

1. Elimination of padding in the timetable.
2. The KRP
3. Elimination of the Portarlington Lisduff Ballybrophy slow bits

I can see why T21f is making the points he is, I think it wont happen, it should have happned with the Motorways but sure what do you want, intelligence form our leaders? Goway!! So we're left with tinkering with the existing infrastructure, and if we can get the line up to say 100mph (which it really should be) all the way from Mallow to Hazlehatch for minimal cost wont that be 90% of the job done without spending 90% of the money?

DerekP11

John R wrote:

As has already been outlined a reduction to a 2hr journey time is realistic with a relatively modest investement. This would keep the speed advantage with rail.

Your nearly right, in my opinion. However this has not been done and there is no plan to do it within T21. Granted IE will tell us that they "plan" to do it at some point in the future. But by then, it may be too late and people will have opted to drive on the sparkly new motorways. Remember, this is a car culture and it will take years and years for the Irish to fall out of love with their cars. More attractive credit options combined with better roads is a marraige made in heaven to some. Especially when it comes to hammering that new purchase down a motorway at 120kph.

Nobody has said that rail is doomed. Its a first class option for Commuting in and out of cities. On longer journies, it must offer benefits. The main benefit is speed and not the chicken and stuffing sambo or freshly cooked breakie. IE had an easy ride for IC trains for donkeys years because roads on inter urban routes where diabollical and car ownership was lower. Thats changing, but the railway isn't. Climbing passenger numbers can just as easily fall when the bus gets quicker and the advent of faster drive times is realised. 2 hrs 35 mins on the Cork route has been talked about since the early 70s. Its not bad, but its not 21st century either. And remember there are no plans to improve on this within the next 10 years.

The other additions to a rail journey have been well documented by other posters. All of this must be factored in. We talk about check in times at airports and the journey there. Well its still an attractive option to 1000s on the Northside as it eliminates the trek into town to Connolly or Heuston. A businessperson, in Swords, malahide, Portmarnock or Blanch would be crazy not to get a low cost flight to Cork, if they choose to leave the car at home. There's no integrated rail modes to get them from these areas quickly and then they are faced with rather laborious journey times on the IC network.
But, me being a rail advocate, my bottom line for IC rail in Ireland is journey times that destroy any legally driven car on a corresponding motorway. Its a small country and railways should be playing their part in making it smaller. But they're not.

Its just something that we should be considering and keeping an eye on.