'Fast trains' a step closer on Dublin to Cork route

Navan Junction

Irish Times, 08/06/2006

Minister for Transport Martin Cullen is expected to sign an order in the coming weeks which will see a €350 million increase in the level of CIÉ borrowing for new rail infrastructure which is guaranteed by the Government. John Downes reports.


This follows a ruling by the EU Commission that the guarantee does not constitute State aid.

This raises the permitted limit for the State guarantee from €250 million to €600 million and allows CIÉ to raise money with private banks to finance necessary investment.

In time, for example, this could see the speedier development of 200kmh "fast trains" along the Cork to Dublin route. These trains are currently the subject of a feasibility study by CIÉ.

If they prove to be viable, the new level of State guarantee might see the company proceeding with the construction of the necessary infrastructure through privately-raised finance, and seeking this money back from the Government at a later date.

It is also expected CIÉ will use its higher "credit rating" to implement key aspects of the Transport 21 initiative when they are needed, rather than waiting for the necessary Exchequer funding to come on-stream.

Similarly, smaller capital development works could be undertaken without having to seek Exchequer funds. These would then be repaid out of the company's own finances.

The EU Commission judgement, which was sought by the Government two years ago, has been warmly welcomed by a spokeswoman for Mr Cullen and a spokesman for Iarnród Éireann.

The EU Commissioner for Transport, Jacques Barrot, said it reaffirmed a "long-standing practice" of the commission.

He said under this practice supervising the construction of new transport infrastructure by a public authority is not an economic activity subject to competition law, but a sovereign decision of the member state.

However, this is under the condition that all potential users of the infrastructure enjoy "free and non-discriminatory access", he added.

The commission also noted that it had been told by Irish authorities that the rail network was currently in an unsatisfactory condition and in "urgent need" of investment.

© The Irish Times

Transport21 Fan

"However, this is under the condition that all potential users of the infrastructure enjoy "free and non-discriminatory access", he added."

So does this mean that private operator passenger and freight on CIE rails is now legally enshrined under EU law?

Victor

All the borrowing level change is, is a means of putting hte loans on CIE / IE books instead of government books.

At one stafe the RPA were financing Luas construction with an overdraft (12% interest rate anyone?), which was later changed to a revolving loan.

MarkoP11

Currently only the international market is deregulated, from 2007 the domestic freight market opens up. The one company that had expressed an interest has disappeared and I can tell you it wasn't one of the big UK companies it was a tiny outfit.

A third party can apply for access but must satisfy all safety requirements.

There is no obilgation on IE to provide trains/drivers. Should Irish Rail dispose of any equipment it is subject to EU tender proceedures, however for scrap equipment the value is such that a tender is not needed, Hammond Lane have long held the contract

This little article exposes what we all knew already that the government is slow in handing over the cash, problem is €350 million is peanuts and just like before the CIE group borrowing figure will go straight to the limit leaving a nasty interest bill, roughly half the cost of the DART project was interest payments and VAT on the loan taken out to pay for it after the Department of Finance intercepted the EC grant it was due

popebenny16

Also, IE have accelerated their scrapping plans on older GM locos, which makes any potential competitor coming over at a serious disadvantage. Not that that's the reason, of course, oh no.

dowlingm

I don't think a new freight op should be running 2x121/121+141s as at present because of their unreliability. When the regional railcars arrive then 071s should start becoming available from the final withdrawal of Mark2/Cravens and ideally the Chairman's dreams of power cars on the CDE fleet will become reality leaving 201s on the Mark3/Enterprise fleet and all the 071s and some 201s for freight.

The spotters will be sad but that's progress.

popebenny16

I'd say that the 071's will get mashed as well.

bk

Irish Rail will definitely need to speed up the trains from Cork to Dublin. As a Corkonian living in Dublin, I can tell you that many of my friends now take the cheap flights to Cork rather then the train due to the speed.

Also with the new Cork to Dublin motorway being built over the next few years, I expect that the door to door car journey will be almost equal to and perhaps faster then the journey by rail and it will certainly be cheaper, more comfortable and more convenient.

And because of the new motorway, the cheap Bus to Cork will become more attractive for students, etc.

So potentially IR is faced with losing both it's upper class customers and lower class customers on this route if they don't do something about it.

A few questions:

1) What is the top speed of the new trains?
2) What will be their normal average speed be? (If the quad lining of the Dublin commuter routes is completed).
3) In order to operate these 200kmh trains mentioned in the article, would lots of expensive new track need to be laid or could they just use tilting trains?

MarkoP11

Despite the spin the new coaches are capable of 200kph just like the old coaches, indeed the old coaches are smoother in ride at high speeds, IE management agree on that, I keep hearing there are more tweaks coming. To the untrained the ride on the new train is good the engineers know it could be made better (smoother ride should mean lower running costs less wear and tear). The old coaches were tested to 200 kph the new ones have only been tested to 180kph

Primary problem is track quailty

Next year its looking at 2:35 with 3 stops, 64 mph ave, thats 10-20 minutes better than now, 50 minutes better than some trains last year
If all the long standing works are done you are looking at 2:20 with 3 stops, 71 mph ave
If the upgrade to 200kph gets the go ahead you are looking at less than 2 hours with 3 stops about 83 mph, Dublin Thurles could be 50 minutes or 103 mph ave

The proposal and it is only a proposal is to relay the track from Dublin to Limerick junction to 200kph standards and to clean up a few curves for the benefit of all trains, think the 70 mph limit through the Curragh, Dublin Mallow is thankfully a straight line with no curvature related speed limits bar Portarlington and Curragh

Mallow Cork is a bit curvy but its only over a short section of 10 odd miles it wouldn't justify the outlay on titling trains, the track would require a lot of work to support the faster speeds of tilting trains regardless. The problem out of Cork is the very steep and sustained gradient more horsepower would have a greater effect that higher speeds. Most of the benefits obtained in the UK from the fleet of titling trains are down to high acceleration rates the tilt is secondary.

Its all coming about 10 years late

The problem with air is short notice travel, you can book online up to one hour before departure with IE, plus the upper price is limited by government. Off peak demand based pricing i.e. Ryanair style low fares is coming to Dublin Cork next year and I'm told if you want seat 27 window in the 3rd coach you can book it

John R

bk wrote:

Irish Rail will definitely need to speed up the trains from Cork to Dublin. As a Corkonian living in Dublin, I can tell you that many of my friends now take the cheap flights to Cork rather then the train due to the speed.

Also with the new Cork to Dublin motorway being built over the next few years, I expect that the door to door car journey will be almost equal to and perhaps faster then the journey by rail and it will certainly be cheaper, more comfortable and more convenient.

And because of the new motorway, the cheap Bus to Cork will become more attractive for students, etc.

So potentially IR is faced with losing both it's upper class customers and lower class customers on this route if they don't do something about it.

I think the threat of the airlines has been overblown somewhat, the actual city-city times for air travel are not that great and the numbers using the route are tiny compared to rail.

Cheap buses will always be attractive to students but even after there is motorway for most of the route there is going to be a big difference in journey times, particularly in peak times when the city traffic will ruin any speed gains the motorways give.

bk wrote:

1) What is the top speed of the new trains?

The exact same as the 20 year old ones they are replacing.

The coaches are rated for 125mph (200kph) The locos which are not being replaced will only do 100mph.

bk wrote:

2) What will be their normal average speed be? (If the quad lining of the Dublin commuter routes is completed).

The average speeds is affected by the number of stops and local speed restrictions more than top speed.

Dublin-Cork is 165 miles. The fastest trains in the current timetable are two non-stop Sunday services at 2h25 southbound and 2h35 northbound.

That is an average speed of approx 65mph which is really not great.

Most of the trains on the route make too many stops, if what MarkoP11 says happens the new hourly service will have a max of 3 stops so without any other improvements the journey time should be around 2h45

bk wrote:

3) In order to operate these 200kmh trains mentioned in the article, would lots of expensive new track need to be laid or could they just use tilting trains?

Tilting trains are only needed to increase speeds on lines with lots of severe bends.
Dublin-Cork is not too bad in that regard, the benefit from using tilting trains would be small. None of the new trains or those on order would be capable of tilting anyway so it is not an option.

Much of the track on the line is old, it was the first line to be relaid with CWR and that is now needing renewal.

Replacing the track and removing the numerous speed restrictions would be of much greater benefit than increrasing the top speed from 100mph

The track needs replacing anyway and removing the worst restrictions would require a modest investement, realistically an increase in the average speed to above 80mph with 2 stops would give an overall journey time around 2 hours.

Increasing the top speed sounds great in newspapers but removing a few miles of slow running will have a much greater impact on journey times.

Pushing the line speed to 200kph also has a huge effect on track wear and it also requires significant re-signalling to cope with the extended stopping distances.

bk

John R wrote:

I think the threat of the airlines has been overblown somewhat, the actual city-city times for air travel are not that great and the numbers using the route are tiny compared to rail.

55 minutes sounds great to me, much better then 2h 45m anyway.

I do think it is having an impact, most people I know, working professionals, now fly.

John R wrote:

Cheap buses will always be attractive to students but even after there is motorway for most of the route there is going to be a big difference in journey times, particularly in peak times when the city traffic will ruin any speed gains the motorways give.

Not that big of a difference. Currently a lot of the delay going from Cork to Dublin is going through small towns and getting stuck behind farming machines. All of that will be gone with the Motorway, I'd expect it to take 1 to 1 and a half hours off the trip. Yes you will still get caught in traffic coming out of Dublin, but the gap between bus and rail would no longer be that big and therefore more attractive. Bus Eireann could even lay on express buses that don't stop anywhere else, making it even faster and all for €12 - €15 return.

John R wrote:

The track needs replacing anyway and removing the worst restrictions would require a modest investement, realistically an increase in the average speed to above 80mph with 2 stops would give an overall journey time around 2 hours.

Increasing the top speed sounds great in newspapers but removing a few miles of slow running will have a much greater impact on journey times.

I guessed all the above, so are there any plans to actually do any of this and what is the time scale.

Victor

MarkoP11 wrote:

The proposal and it is only a proposal is to relay the track from Dublin to Limerick junction to 200kph standards and to clean up a few curves for the benefit of all trains, think the 70 mph limit through the Curragh, Dublin Mallow is thankfully a straight line with no curvature related speed limits bar Portarlington and Curragh

What about Thurles?

Red Alert

The chairman's 'dream' of power cars..... what an unbelieveable hubris display by that foolish man. We don't need them, no thanks. They constitute vendor lock-in and are unusable for anything else. Essentially they are a CAF locomotive with enough 'extras' to constitute a power car. The 201's are far too young to be replaced - replace what's needed, not to satisfy your ego.

I think a private freight/night-train operator should have 'first refusal' on locomotives before scrapping. In fact this is something that should be set down to the semi-states: absolutely no vehicle/plant that can be sold should be scrapped. I'm sure someone somewhere would have found a use for the KD double deckers, and i'm amazed that the RH buses are being sold intact. Time for IE to follow suit me thinks.

dowlingm

Red Alert - the power cars don't necessarily have to be CAFs surely if a GM loco can push-pull it as it stands? Am open to correction but surely that makes sense. The DVTs could then possibly be refitted for Enterprise (replacing the ninth carriage) to reduce the current 201 failures due to HEP but that would be subject to agreement with NIR due to joint ownership.

The 201s are still needed for Enterprise and the Mark3 fleet especially if increased Belfast service goes ahead. At the end of the day the 201s are ideal freight locos being twice as powerful as any other IE loco and unlikely to be scrapped - the 121/141/181 (1960s) and 1970s 071s would go before the mid 90s built 201s.

Powercars would only displace the same number of 201s as CAF sets (8) and being twins would probably be able to get the train (albeit more slowly) to its destination in the event of a failure - if a 201/CAF goes bang the train isn't going anywhere.

John R

bk wrote:

55 minutes sounds great to me, much better then 2h 45m anyway.

55mns is the flying time which is a meaningless figure. The minimum time from walking in the door of one airport to walking out the door at the other end for a 55min flight would be around 2hrs. For rail it's more like travel time + 5 mns.

Then there's the travel time to/from the airport. For most people it's much greater than the rail stations. Fair enough if you are going from Swords to Douglas then there is no contest but for most door to door journeys a 2h30 rail time is competitive with a 50min air trip.

bk

John R wrote:

55mns is the flying time which is a meaningless figure. The minimum time from walking in the door of one airport to walking out the door at the other end for a 55min flight would be around 2hrs. For rail it's more like travel time + 5 mns.

For internal flights you need to check in 30 min prior to departure, most people without luggage turn up about 40 min before. And as it is an internal flight you have no delay leaving, unless you checked in Luggage.

Also in my experience for any busy time on the Cork to Dublin train route you need to be there at least 30 minutes before hand to guarantee you get on and get a seat, for the Friday 5:00 I usually try to turn up 45 minutes before and it usually takes me about an hour to commute to the station.

Plus in the last 5 times I've been to Cork (once a month), the train has broken down twice, causing a 1 hour delay and a 1 and a half hour delay. For supposedly the most important intercity line, it seems to break down an awful lot.

Being generous, I'd say door to door train time is about 3h15, more like 3h30 on a Friday and Sunday. By air it is 1h45, being very generous here, 55 min before departure. That is still about 1h 30 to 1h 45 faster then by train.

BTW AerArann is 55min, Ryanair is 50min to Cork. From what I'm told AerArann often arrives a few minutes early.

Don't let your love of trains get in the way of recognising that they have serious competition. If IR take the same view as you and don't work to reduce the journey times, then they will be in trouble eventually.

Stark

Despite the "Once upon a time I got a flight to Cork for €40" stories, airplane travel from Dublin - Cork is still rediculously expensive in my opinion. I just priced a flight for next weekend: €167 with Ryanair, €145 with Aer Arann. It will cost me €40 for the train (I've an under-26 card) or €12.50 for the bus. Although I don't consider the bus to be viable anymore now that it's taking in extra small towns on the route.

bk

Stark wrote:

Despite the "Once upon a time I got a flight to Cork for €40" stories, airplane travel from Dublin - Cork is still rediculously expensive in my opinion. I just priced a flight for next weekend: €167 with Ryanair, €145 with Aer Arann. It will cost me €40 for the train (I've an under-26 card) or €12.50 for the bus. Although I don't consider the bus to be viable anymore now that it's taking in extra small towns on the route.

You are right it can be expensive, most of my friends get it for about €60, the trick is to book about 3 weeks in advance. Yes that is less convenient then the train, but it does suit many people who travel regularly, you just need to be organised.

I've just finished with the u26 card. When I was paying €40 I was happy to use the train, but now it is €60 return for me, I'm seriously thinking of flying in future (quicker for same money) or getting a car (a lot cheaper but slower). When the Cork to Dublin inter-urban motorway opens, I'll definitely be taking a car if IR don't improve.

It really doesn't surprise me when I look around the train, I see that most of the passengers are students or u26 people. €40 seems to be fine for the trip, but when you get to €60, people start looking for alternatives.

I'll tell you a little story, my sister drives Cork to Dublin and back most weekends. However about two months ago she decided to take the train and was happy enough with it, she could work on the train, until she turned up at the station on a Monday morning three weeks ago, to find the drivers had gone on their stupid strike. Needless to say that she swore never to take the train again, she is back in her car this weekend.

dowlingm

stark

the closer to the flight the more expensive it is. Welcome to "yield-management" - coming soon to an intercity train near you.

Stark

I heard they were thinking of introducing cheaper fares for off-peak routes.

I couldn't see them charging you €150 for a train ticket if you don't book ahead in time though?

MarkoP11

Petrol alone on a return trip to Cork is looking at costing upwards of €35 and that can only go up,

The rail system is turn up and go, no need to book, no worries about needing identification, no worry about the over zealous security staff at Dublin Airport, no worry about what you can and cannot bring with you. The official baggage allowance on an Irish intercity train is 50kg. Ok turning up at 4:55pm for the 5pm train will typically leave you standing, but you can reserve a seat at no cost up to 1 hour before departure of a train from its starting station, with Ryanair you need to book the day before or incur the extra cost of calling the telephone booking line. From December I can book the exact seat I want on the train to Cork, so if I want a seat with a full table window or isle on the Inchicore side facing towards Cork in the third coach thats doable, its currently doable in First

Even if you book a century in advance the cheapest deal possible get from Ryanair is €43.38 assuming the €0.01 each way price, if you are organised enough to have a week or two notice otherwise you are looking at upwards of €150

A return trip on Monday is €203.34 by Ryanair, for next weekend its €153.34 in contrast

Irish Rail is €59 regardless, or €115 for first class both reserved with no surcharges or booking fees and of course there are 3 times more trains to choose from and student and other discounts available online. The reason the airlines are still more than happy to run Dublin Cork is down to the fact the train is packed, its not uncommon for all the first class seats to be booked out on the morning/evening citygold services

The big thing next year is off peak discounts, the tender is out for a fares study but travel off peak, book in advance and a discounted fare will be available. The peak fare i.e what you pay currently is regulated by the DoT so its restricted and will only increase by the minsters approval basically 3-6% per year, thankfully a UK style situation isnt happening

_Kaiser_

I just priced a flight from Dublin-Cork with Ryanair...

- next week (out Saturday, back Monday): €15 return
- week after (out Saturday, back Monday): €5 return

Compare that with IE's prices.. €59.00????

No wonder more people are flying down. How can they (IE) justify that price?

[EDIT: I may have missed additional charges? I don't fly much ]
[EDIT 2: Never mind.. with charges and taxes it goes to €58... oh well! :rolleyes:]

bk

MarkoP11 wrote:

Petrol alone on a return trip to Cork is looking at costing upwards of €35 and that can only go up,

Your way off there, less then €20.

Cork to Dublin return, is 320 miles. An average car will realistically do 22 mpg, it works out at €17.

That is why an awful lot of people drive the trip. It is a lot cheaper and door to door it takes only slightly longer then by train and you get to use your car at the destination.

On a Friday by train it takes me:
- 1 hour to commute to Hueston (DART, then LUAS).
- Wait 30 - 45 minutes
- 2h 45min on train (if it doesn't break down).
- 15 min in Taxi to get home
Total time 4h 30 min to 4h 45 min.

By car it takes about 4h to 5h door to door, depending on when you leave.

The total cost by train is about €85 (Train + 2xTaxi + DART/Luas). By car it is €20.

Man now that I think about it, I'm depressed, I need to get a car!

When the inter urban opens, the trip will be even quicker (probably 3h to 3h 30min) and easier (nice Motorway road).

I'm not trying to dish trains here, I just think IR need to improve their service or they may start to loose business.

I don't think anyone here would disagree that IR should be aiming to reduce the Cork to Dublin time to max 2h?

MarkoP11

I suggest you redo you math and if you can only get 22mpg on the open road you really need a more efficient car

166 miles, 332 round trip

Fuel price is according to AA 117.8

Assuming you can get 50 mpg (small car no prob)

1 gallon = 4.65 litres (must convert from gallons to littres)

332/50 = 6.64 gallons = 30.8 litres = €36.30 + road tax + insurance + deprecation on car

BTW for 22mpg it would be €82.66

They are my numbers I believe reasonable

If you want to save money you can get a ticket from a DART station to Cork as one and it includes the Luas transfer. I of course can book a seat so I need not show up more than 15 minutes before departure and for the 2:40-2:55 journey I can type/read/eat etc it can be very productive time.

If you want to save money get the bus, if you want to get there fast but money no option fly if you want to get there reasoanbly quickly and have rthe use of your time you get the train, IE claim a 50% market share to Cork despite it being crap overcrowded slow and overpriced, if they ever get the act together...........

Stark

That sounds more like it. I'm generally told it costs €40 for a return Cork - Dublin trip.

parsi

bk wrote:

Your way off there, less then €20.

Cork to Dublin return, is 320 miles. An average car will realistically do 22 mpg, it works out at €17.

hah ? The round trip is 320 miles (ish). My car does around 500 miles on a tank (55 litres). So it would take approx 33 litres which at 114.9 a litre (todays price down the Marina) is a tad over 37 euro...

John R

Kaiser2000 wrote:

I just priced a flight from Dublin-Cork with Ryanair...

- next week (out Saturday, back Monday): €15 return
- week after (out Saturday, back Monday): €5 return

Compare that with IE's prices.. €59.00????

No wonder more people are flying down. How can they (IE) justify that price?

[EDIT: I may have missed additional charges? I don't fly much ]
[EDIT 2: Never mind.. with charges and taxes it goes to €58... oh well! :rolleyes:]

Not having a go at you personally Kaiser2000 but I am constantly amazed by how many people really believe the Ryanair bullsh!t fare adverts.

Maybe IE should advertise ALL their services as free seing as they do not profit from them and then hand out a checkout reciept of all the incedental charges added on to make the fare.

The extra insult with RA is that at the end of the booking when they finally reveal the actual price there is still an additional €5 for using your credit card.


The cheapest all in fare with them is just over €50 and even booking 3-4 months ahead it is very limited availability. Fri/Sat/Sun the cheapest is €68 return

John R

bk wrote:

For internal flights you need to check in 30 min prior to departure, most people without luggage turn up about 40 min before. And as it is an internal flight you have no delay leaving, unless you checked in Luggage.

It would be a brave person that arrived at Dublin Airport 40 mns before departure at peak times. RA are notorious for closing check-in on the dot and isn't their check-in deadline 40 mns anyway?

Even without a specific delay it takes time to get from airplane to front door.

I stand by my 2hr timeframe, maybe it can be a little less but with the prospect of having to buy a second expensive ticket if the flight is missed I don't think that cutting it tight is terribly clever.

bk wrote:

Your way off there, less then €20.

Cork to Dublin return, is 320 miles. An average car will realistically do 22 mpg, it works out at €17.

MPG - Miles Per Gallon. Fuel is around €1.20 a litre which is €5.45 per Gallon

That is why an awful lot of people drive the trip. It is a lot cheaper and door to door it takes only slightly longer then by train and you get to use your car at the destination.

bk wrote:

On a Friday by train it takes me:
- 1 hour to commute to Hueston (DART, then LUAS).
- Wait 30 - 45 minutes
- 2h 45min on train (if it doesn't break down).
- 15 min in Taxi to get home
Total time 4h 30 min to 4h 45 min.

Marko already told you how to save the 30 mns you spend queing up with all the sheep at Heuston to get a seat; reserve the seat.

bk wrote:

The total cost by train is about €85 (Train + 2xTaxi + DART/Luas). By car it is €20.

So you are spending over €20 on a 15 minute taxi ride and complaining about the rail fare?

bk wrote:

Man now that I think about it, I'm depressed, I need to get a car!

I think you ought to do some sums first. Obviously your petrol price guess is way out, add to that tax, insurance, nct, servicing, depreciation and unless you are very careful parking/speeding tickets. I can guarantee you that running a car is not a bargain.

bk

Sorry guys, me bad, got my maths completely wrong. But still even €36 is still far cheaper then the train.

For me the train costs about €86 including Taxi, that is probably true for most people as most people don't live in a train station. Just look at all the people running for the taxi rank (me included) getting off the train from Cork.

Must people look at their door to door cost and door to door travel time. By car it is far cheaper then by train and not much longer. It will become even more attractive with the new motorway.

Unlike some people here, not everyone loves trains, the vast majority of people are like me, they just want to get from a to b in the least amount of time, for the cheapest cost and in the most convenience.

I have the feeling that most of the people who take the train to Cork are those who don't have a car, like students, recent grads, etc. I think as soon as some one gets a car, they start to drive. That is certainly true amongst my friends who are now starting to buy cars and are driving to Cork, instead of by train.

I don't get why people are so upset, all I'm suggesting is that IR need to improve the speed of their service to Cork in order to remain competitive.

This is not like the bad old days when IR were almost a monopoly as most people didn't have a car. Nowadays most people have a car and now we are starting to get roads that match the quality of the cars. IR also need to improve or they will be left behind.

BTW I do get the integrated DART/LUAS ticket, but it is only a few cent cheaper, not worth talking about in the overall cost.

bk

John R wrote:

It would be a brave person that arrived at Dublin Airport 40 mns before departure at peak times. RA are notorious for closing check-in on the dot and isn't their check-in deadline 40 mns anyway?

No one who does this regularly goes via RA, they are crap, AerArann are much nicer.

John R wrote:

Even without a specific delay it takes time to get from airplane to front door.

It also takes about the same time or more to get to the train station.

John R wrote:

MPG - Miles Per Gallon. Fuel is around €1.20 a litre which is €5.45 per Gallon

I've already admitted that my maths was completely wrong on that, sorry. But even with the correct pricing it is still directly €24 cheaper and about €44 if you include Taxi that most people have to take.

John R wrote:

Marko already told you how to save the 30 mns you spend queing up with all the sheep at Heuston to get a seat; reserve the seat.

He is right, now that I'm not on the u26 card any more (you couldn't book with this), I should book now. But what happens if I miss the train, commuting through Dublin traffic on a Friday can easily make you miss the train. Are you allowed to board the next one or do you have to buy another ticket.

Still even with that, it is still not much shorter then by car and when the new motorway is in place.

John R wrote:

By car it takes about 4h to 5h door to door, depending on when you leave.

And it will become 3h to 4h door to door once the motorway is finished.

John R wrote:

So you are spending over €20 on a 15 minute taxi ride and complaining about the rail fare?

Actually I'm not really complaining about price at all, what I'm trying to get across is that the train certainly isn't the cheapest way to Cork, there are far cheaper ways and that they are about to become far faster and more convenient soon. If IR want to continue charging a premium for their service, they need to improve the quality (less f*$king break downs) and reduce the travel duration to at most 2h.

John R wrote:

I think you ought to do some sums first. Obviously your petrol price guess is way out, add to that tax, insurance, nct, servicing, depreciation and unless you are very careful parking/speeding tickets. I can guarantee you that running a car is not a bargain.

Ah come on, obviously a car isn't just for travelling Cork to Dublin. It is for other things like getting to work, doing the shopping, seeing friends, going to the beach on a beautiful day like today, etc. All the other costs would already be covered, so really it is just the price of petrol.

dowlingm

Aer Arann allow booking up to -3hrs from flight time (just checked it). It's 4.53am Irish time and I can book the 8am ex Cork.

Ryanair - who also use the Navitaire system IIRC - don't allow web bookings but they do seem to allow phone bookings.

_Kaiser_

dowlingm wrote:

Aer Arann allow booking up to -3hrs from flight time (just checked it). It's 4.53am Irish time and I can book the 8am ex Cork.

Ryanair - who also use the Navitaire system IIRC - don't allow web bookings but they do seem to allow phone bookings.

Aer Arann are no cheaper.. in fact going out next Saturday, returning Monday morning costs €98 in total! :eek:

Looks like driving or the bus is the only realistic option for those who'd be doing this trip regularly.

MarkoP11

Don't get me wrong the train service to Cork is third world, its slow and it is overpriced by virtue of no off peak discounts. On the upside the journey time by rail has fallen significantly in the last year, 25 minutes came off the 5:15 ex Cork, another 20 came off the 21:00 ex Dublin, another 10-15 minutes off nearly all trains next year and another 15-20 in the medium term, could be looking at up to 45 minutes reduction on some trains comparing 2005 times against 2010 ish, if the government gets the finger out and supplies the cash you could be looking at a 50 minute reduction on current times, with up to 1 hour 15 minutes saved on some of the 2005 times. At 2 hours the airlines would seriously feel the pinch that is if the fuel price situation didn't get them first

Problem with flying to Cork and in particular with Aer Arann is the fog at Cork Airport, colleagues of mine had a meeting in Cork one winter morning last year (the morning train would have been sufficiently early) but they weren't paying so Aer Arann, flight landed in Farranfore, then by road to Cork, meeting missed, return flight cancelled, needless to say the train was taken back to Dublin. Similar situation coming back from Galway half the team are getting the train half them are flying back, phone call from pub to confirm flight on time, nope cancelled all rush and get on the train.

The online booking widget will offer Adult, Child, Faircard, Weekend and Student tickets, it does. Its still not so intuitive and has a few issues with certain browsers but it does work

I've never experienced a intercity train failure, I've experienced 3 or 4 technical problems over the last 5 years leading to a delay of 10-15 minutes but never an incident where a locomotive was summoned to rescue, the stats are in the region of 1 failure per 10k to 20k miles (Dublin suburban is more like 30k, DART 60k+). Looks like some people are really unlucky or I have been lucky, but unlike Ryanair you can get a 50% refund for a delay more than an hour and 100% for more than 2 hours. To be fair compared to 5-10 years ago failures and delays were rife its got a whole lot better.

The new Cork train is nice, it has the electronic seat reservations, it has its problems like the ugly freight engine on the back, no one has been able to explain why the 200kph power cars were not ordered as the main order even if limited to 165kph the extra power and resiliency to failure would have a positive effect on journey times not to mention public perception, we have been here before back in 1984 CIE could have bought the UK IC125 powercars (with the bigger radiators), its either a lack of ambition, funds or both.

Bus Eireann don't seem terribly eager to compete with only 6 direct services a day to Cork, Aircoach have only 8 but claim 4 hours journey

Stark

Aircoach are now claiming 4 hours 30 mins since they decided to take in Kildare. I tolerated 4 hours because it was so cheap, but 4 hours 30 mins is a bit too much for me. The weekend is short enough without losing an additional 4 hours (down and back).

Slice

What I don't understand is why IE wont introduce an Enterprise-style service between Dublin-Cork with only two or three designated stops at major towns in between for all Dublin-Cork trains...

Stark

They have express trains from Dublin - Cork. Sometimes they're non-stop all the way, other times they stop in Limerick Junction and Mallow.

MarkoP11

Slice wrote:

What I don't understand is why IE wont introduce an Enterprise-style service between Dublin-Cork with only two or three designated stops at major towns in between for all Dublin-Cork trains...

That happens in December 2006, Thurles and Mallow are the designated stops with connections forward, the current timetable reeks of parish pump politics having to call at every town on the way

There is an almost an unbroken suburban service across the entire Belfast line that avoids stoping everywhere

I can already hear the local politicos cry fowl despite getting a better net service, there is a strange assumption that everyone is entitled to a direct service to Dublin from every little town think again a proper efficent service will never work that way and from what I have seen a very nice arrangement of connections is to be put in place which will mean an end to people travelling in the wrong direction as many do now

bk

MarkoP11 wrote:

I've never experienced a intercity train failure, I've experienced 3 or 4 technical problems over the last 5 years leading to a delay of 10-15 minutes but never an incident where a locomotive was summoned to rescue, the stats are in the region of 1 failure per 10k to 20k miles (Dublin suburban is more like 30k, DART 60k+). Looks like some people are really unlucky or I have been lucky, but unlike Ryanair you can get a 50% refund for a delay more than an hour and 100% for more than 2 hours. To be fair compared to 5-10 years ago failures and delays were rife its got a whole lot better.

Your very lucky, in the past 6 months I've experienced three.

Cork to Dublin twice in the last 3 months on the 5:30 express. Once for 1h 30min and required a new engine, the other time was a 1h delay, didn't require a new engine, but headed to Dublin fairly slowly.

The other time was Dublin to Cork at 5:00. We actually didn't even get out of Hueston. We had just left the platform when the engine broke down!! We had to wait 30min to get a new engine which pushed us back into Heuston. IR told us that we would have to get off and get on the next train. But they didn't open the doors. After about 10 minutes of waiting for the doors to open they came back on and said that they had gotten a new engine and would leave shortly. Total delay was 1 hour.

And I travel only once a month.

BTW It would be nice if IR told the passengers about getting their money back, because I was never told.

Actually thinking about it, I've been getting the Cork to Dublin for 5 years now, it has seemed to get far less reliable over the last 12 months!

In some ways it is more reliable in that when the train doesn't fail, it does make the trip on time, when in the past it would often be be 10 - 15 minutes late. However there seems to be far more major failures these days, then in the past.

Interestingly I was talking to a Taxi driver leaving Hueston one day after a break down and he said that it was about the third time it had happened in the month alone.

John R

MarkoP11 wrote:

Bus Eireann don't seem terribly eager to compete with only 6 direct services a day to Cork, Aircoach have only 8 but claim 4 hours journey

Bus Eireann put in for an hourly service with every second one non-stop but were refused by the DoT.

Stark wrote:

Aircoach are now claiming 4 hours 30 mins since they decided to take in Kildare. I tolerated 4 hours because it was so cheap, but 4 hours 30 mins is a bit too much for me. The weekend is short enough without losing an additional 4 hours (down and back).

The online timetable still gives 4 hours but in most cases with those stops it is unrealistic and at peak times with heavy traffic there is no chance.

Unoficially Bus Eireann run most busy services with one express bus that runs non-stop except for a rest break and a following bus that services all the intermediate towns. Most of the weekend runs and a good deal of the weekday ones are allocated two coaches for this.

craigybagel

Just to break down all the arguements on this page and make things more simple. Im a student from Dublin but studying in Cork and have to make the journey more often than most, and ive done so using all possible methods. The car is always going to be the quickest and cheapest method and nothing IE or the airlines do can change that. So the people who dont drive do so because they either cant or they dont want to. So theyre left with 3 choices: the bus, the plane or the train.

Most of these people wont use the bus. Its officially 4 hours 20 mins Aircoach 25mins BE and over the course of the last year the record for me for quickest journey stands at 3 hrs 50 mins. This was a freak occurence and the average is about 4hrs 15 mins. Worst case though was a 6hr 30 min trip one Friday (less said about that the better). The journey is also cramped and you only have access to food and a toilet during the break at Urlingford. Yes at €18 return its cheap and for that reason alone (its even less for a student) i use it more than the other methods but if someone else is paying, or im unusually rich il find another way to go everytime i can, and most people who can afford to will do same.

So for most people it comes down to the train or the plane. City centre to city centre the plane is at least 2 hrs 30 mins (30 min journey to Dublin Airport, 40 min check-in, 50 min flight, 10 min to get from plane to bus at out-dated and cramped Cork airport, 20 min bus journey to Cork), but thats the absolute minimum with perfect connections, and realistically itd be almost impossible to get it below 3 hours. Costs start €60 return (€45 flights plus €15 worth of bus fares at either end) but this can quadruple depending on when you book your flights. The train is 3 - 3.5 hours and costs about €65 return (both including bus transfers at each end, although the need for one at cork is debatable), but that fare stays the same regardless of when the ticket is bought.

MarkoP11

craigybagel wrote:

The train is 3 - 3.5 hours and costs about €65 return (both including bus transfers at each end, although the need for one at cork is debatable), but that fare stays the same regardless of when the ticket is bought.

Student return (open return valid 30 days) is €38.50 €4 less than the cheapest possible air fare

dowlingm

One advantage the plane has over the train is the hotels at Cork and Dublin Airports. If IE were on the ball they would have excellent, reasonably priced conference facilities at/near Kent and Heuston. This would facilitate people who are solely in town for a meeting and want to be able to stay until the last possible minute and then have a short transit time to being in their seat back to the other end.

Putting wifi on IC trains would offer a huge advantage to trains as then business travellers could be in contact at all times, whereas there is that hour of dead time from boarding to deplaning with planes. If you're talking about people who can bill for time spent on the phone or working on documents over private internet the cost of a CityGold seat would be paid for before half-way.

The aim should be that CityGold be full always, with Standard being "gravy".

MarkoP11

Part of the current problem is the fact its not uncommon for citygold to be booked out, hourly city gold from next year will give the flexibilty to return in comfort regardless of any early or late finsh

craigybagel

MarkoP11 wrote:

Student return (open return valid 30 days) is €38.50 €4 less than the cheapest possible air fare

True im just pointing out how it is for most travellers. Students are few and far between on the train when the bus is less than a third of the price.

DerekP11

There is currently no incentive to bus companies to offer express non stop inter city trips from Cork-Dublin-Cork. Some do and do it successfully, but traffic congestion in certain towns has forced a lot of them to provide a stop to maximise income.

Lets think outside the box for a minute.

I'll use Dublin - Cork - Dublin as the most quoted example.

A long distance journey like this one has 2 types of passenger.

1. A car owner for business/pleasure.
2. A non car owner for business/pleasure.

Considering that Ireland is engulfed in a car ownership frenzy that may take up to 30 years to calm down, enticing drivers from their cars may prove difficult no matter what you do. So the real market leader and or threat, depending which way you look at it, is the non car owning traveller. The choices are as follows.

1. Bus
2. Train
3. plane.

Current road conditions limit the ability of a bus service, but make the car option reasonably attractive. Combined with our ability to buy new cars and the need to drive them, this makes the car option attractive. Add in a new motorway and it's gonna take years to get that passenger back. So the existing Bus passenger with a cheap fare, but long journey time is a possibility. However with the new motorway and more non-stop services(thats when they will be attractive and profitable to operators) cost will over rule service for many. The existing train service will not compete. Currently the biggest off putter for the bus is the laborious journey time. That will reduce significantly for end to end journey times with the advent of a motorway. (combine this with QBC developments) Dublin to Cork express bus will be achievable in 3 hours 15 mins. No question. There will be a big saving versus the train fare for a journey that may be 30 mins longer by bus. Thats attractive. As for the plane option... Heuston station is just as far for people as Dublin Airport. Same situation exists in Cork for Kent or Cork Airport. But 40 min check in rule remains a problem. Only for the idle rich in my opinion.

However I fear the real death knell for inter city rail is on the other inter urban routes such as Waterford and Galway. Motorway/Dual carraigeway versus line speeds/service far short of what Cork will have spell disaster. And its on these routes that bus transport is alive and well with Nestors, Citylink and Kavanaghs all bangin it out with gusto.

Cork may survive, but the others could be in real trouble.

popebenny16

At the moment, with the motorway finishing at Portaoise you can get to the following:

This is from the M50 only, add more time getting inwards:

Portlaoise 50 mins
Roscrea add 25 min
Nenagh add 20
Limerick add 30 (to ring road)

Less than two hours to Limerick right now. Half of that not on motorways. Add a motorway and reduce it further. The new train service to Limerick will take up a lot of the slack left behind by the CDE and the new timetable, pickign up at most of the intermediate stations. At the moment, the 1705 express gets from Heuston to Templemore in about 1.15. I can drive it in 1.35, including an 80kph strectch with three towns of 50kph from Abbeyleix onwards.

So, where does this leave the train service? Can they get the train competing along those lines? Of course they can, but it'll take a wallop of money to do it. Is 200kph the solution? Probably, it'll benifit the limerick galway lines as well, partly.

But will it be too late?

dowlingm

yeah but it's the bit from the M50 in that's the problem - with interconnector and quad tracking (the little bit they are actually going to do) M50 > Heuston is going to be a lot faster than any car can manage (we hope!)

As for those doing calculations on car costs - don't forget to add tolls

craigybagel

popebenny16 wrote:

At the moment, with the motorway finishing at Portaoise you can get to the following:

This is from the M50 only, add more time getting inwards:

Portlaoise 50 mins
Roscrea add 25 min
Nenagh add 20
Limerick add 30 (to ring road)

Less than two hours to Limerick right now. Half of that not on motorways. Add a motorway and reduce it further. The new train service to Limerick will take up a lot of the slack left behind by the CDE and the new timetable, pickign up at most of the intermediate stations. At the moment, the 1705 express gets from Heuston to Templemore in about 1.15. I can drive it in 1.35, including an 80kph strectch with three towns of 50kph from Abbeyleix onwards.

So, where does this leave the train service? Can they get the train competing along those lines? Of course they can, but it'll take a wallop of money to do it. Is 200kph the solution? Probably, it'll benifit the limerick galway lines as well, partly.

But will it be too late?

It is hard for rail to compete on a journey that doesnt invole the city centres, but how many people want to travel from Clondalkin-Glanmire or to the LImerick ring road. Add in city centre traffic and suddenly rail becomes a lot more reliable. One memorable Cork-Dublin journey for me took and hour from Rathcoole to the Red Cow and another hour from Heuston to BusAras.

MarkoP11

One interesting problem is certain towns on the Cork rail line have zero on no direct bus services to Dublin, eg Thurles, I managed 64 minutes by rail for the 86.4 miles, 81mph ave back in 1997, it was routine to do it in 65 minutes flat in the good days. Best time by car from the city centre is looking at 1:50 ish, the quays are horrible at the best of times.

Victor

DerekP11, I think you overstate the arguments for car and bus.

Car means (generally) owning a car, which a lot of urban (not sub-urban) dwellers just don't care about. Its alot of time, money and effort.

A bus can't do Cork-Dublin non-stop (nor can the car in practice) which means either a break or a change of driver on the way, that eats into time and/or money. Buses are legally limited to 80km/h (not that they stick to it), the would need to average 80km/h to do it in 3h20, no stops, no tolls, no congestion

Transport21 Fan

Personally I consider constant upgrading the Dublin-Cork line to be another version of reopening the Western Rail Corridor, just on a larger scale - at some point you have to balance the cost of the constant cycles of upgrade against the benefits and I am starting to beleive that we are approaching this already. How much money will it take to make the Inter-city rail network an alternative to the road transport once the motorway network is completed? I reckon billions and billions.

At some point in the next 20 years Ireland is gong to have to think about a high-speed line if Inter-City rail services in this country are to have any real meaning or modal advantage, and if we are going to spend billions on making victorian railways work in the 21st century, then why not move to the next level? I know a lot of you think it is bull**** (and it is for now) as Ireland does not have the population density for high-speed, but Dublin did not have the population density for a Metro when it was first proposed in Platform for Change either. The goal posts changed and the rest is history.

Without going into a WoT type "future-proofing" argument, upon completion of the motorway programme, I honestly only see a future for commuter rail in Ireland with Inter-City on the current network a perpetual under-achiever.

Look at the Enterpirse, it an over-hyped basket case and carries few passengers. There is no hope for it at all really, as the Interconnector won't provide a chance to enhance it and the M1 is a fantastic motorway to drive on. So we might as well admit that the Enterprise is failed project living on life support and to make it right would require huge sums of money.

The only way we will ever get serious rail travel in Ireland at modern inter-city levels will be new arterial high-speed line between Belfast, Dublin and Cork. Sounds like bollox now, but it's not as much bollocks as it first appears.

The IE Inter-city would cost so much to bring up European standard, that it will become more and more economically viable to look at high speed within a couple of decades if not sooner as our economy and population expands. Making a half-pointy train, have both ends pionty and straightening out a few curves here and there in the Midlands won't do it for Inter-City rail travel in Ireland, especially when the motorway programme is completed.

In recent times I have notice a major collaspe in passenger numbers on the Sligo line in the last year or so. I know a lot of this has to do with the crap 2900's, but driving from Sligo to Dublin is getting a lot easier and a high quality express bus service would probably kill the rail line altoghter. The Sligo line is providing a microcosm of the future of all inter-city lines I believe - the better the roads get, the less the train get's used for inter-city travel. Sligo today, Cork and Limerick tomorrow? Anyone who sincerely cares about the future of rail transport in Ireland and does not see the motorway programme as a major danger to Inter-City rail transport is being very naieve.

High-speed or partial high-speed inter-city rail in Ireland will happen one day, not for another 20 years or so, but it will happen. There comes a point were we can continue to tinker with the IE network and spend vast amounts of money trying to bring it up to a serious standard, or we can start with a clean sheet of paper and do it properly. I see the latter choice becoming a less distant option in the years to come.