The Hazards of Belief

robindch

> that trend is compensated for by the way the more fundamentalist
> Christian denominaitons produce atheists.

Is there any research which documents how many atheists are born to fundamentalist parents?

I'm sure the odd atheist must develop from time to time in Alabama before being chased out of town, but I wonder if it's like the G6PD mutation (confers resistance to malaria in heterozygous individuals, and death from anemia in homozygous individuals) -- generally, do the stats indicate that a sufficient number of suitably impressionable viable offspring are produced, and that the occasional atheist turns up, but rarely enough that you won't be able to retain control of the gene pool.

Incidentally, the Amish do something like this: apparently, everybody has to go off and live in a big city for a while in their late teens and early twenties. At the end of the period, you've to decide whether or not you want to return and if you do, you've to sign up to an Amish life. This is a neat-o way of discarding disruptive gene lines (assuming behaviour is genetically determined in some way, which seems reasonable given recent research).

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

pH wrote:

I don't want to derail this thread - so if there's a discussion here let's move it, but I've been wondering about how religious the US is, really.

I watch quite a bit of US TV, and the image it portrays is not one of a country any more religious than the most secular European country. Factual/Reality programs don't start with a prayer, thanks are rarely given to God and in fictional drama religion is rarely touched on, and when it is - it is just as often portrayed in a negative light - when you see a Catholic priest you can presume ... etc etc.

As in everything there are exceptions (touched by an angel...) and the obvious argument is that this stuff is produced by Godless Californians, but these people above all want to make money and if they thought prime time bible stories would work I'm sure the airwaves would be full of them.

So why if the US is as religious as it is claimed are the TV ratings not filled with programs about Christ, Moses et al. Why doesn't American Idol start and and end with a prayer? Why when you watch desperate housewives are the characters religion and relationship with God not a far more central and important part of the story each week?

because the jews run the major television networks..

jesus, does no one listen to the nazi's anymore?

robindch

> So why if the US is as religious as it is claimed are the TV ratings not
> filled with programs about Christ, Moses et al.

There are many religious channels in the USA, and most of them are free to air too! They're interesting to watch to, at least from time to time, just to keep tabs on what complete and utter tosh people will believe, if the preacher closes his eyes, waves his arms and shouts a lot

I think you're perhaps sampling only from the channels which are broadcast country-wide or internationally and must appeal to everybody, not just the millions of backwood Jebs and Doris's.

Dades

There a God Channel on NTL; number 610 or something.

The reason we don't see more of such programming is that there is very little market for it here. It makes no sense economically to import Christian flavoured programming over to Europe.

Scofflaw

The Atheist wrote:

The reason we don't see more of such programming is that there is very little market for it here. It makes no sense economically to import Christian flavoured programming over to Europe.

And in general, sinners lead more interesting lives....after all, you don't make soaps about people being good, and leading blameless lives. It's hard to see how you'd have a soap full of Christians that would simultaneously be "interesting" and not offend most Christians. A large part of the point of public religion in the US is that it is associated with private morality.

pH wrote:

So why if the US is as religious as it is claimed are the TV ratings not filled with programs about Christ, Moses et al. Why doesn't American Idol start and and end with a prayer? Why when you watch desperate housewives are the characters religion and relationship with God not a far more central and important part of the story each week?

This will seem like an odd question, but bear with me - how many fat people do you see on US-produced media? Not as actors, but "in public", in "crowd scences" and just generally around the place?

Do you think that what you see there is representative of the US reality?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Splendour

Robindch writes:

'Is there any research which documents how many atheists are born to fundamentalist parents?'

Babies are born neither athiest or Christian no matter what their parents beliefs may be. We are all however, born seprated from God.

Zillah

An atheist is someone who does not believe in God. Therefore, all babies are atheists, as they have no beliefs.

Which is actually completely irrelevant to Robin's point. I believe his question would be better phrased with "...how many people who, as adults, were atheists..."

robindch

Tipping my hat to Splendour and Zillah, the question should of course read:

Is there any research which documents the religious beliefs of the offspring of self-described "fundamentalists", specifically documenting the religious beliefs of their offspring? Multi-generational research would be even more welcome.

An interesting follow-up question is to determine if adult atheist offspring are living geographically (as well as religiously) further away from the parents than their religiously-compatible siblings, such details broken down by the gender of the siblings. I would suspect that the atheists live much further away, but that's just a guess.

5uspect

robindch wrote:

Tipping my hat to Splendour and Zillah, the question should of course read:
An interesting follow-up question is to determine if adult atheist offspring are living geographically (as well as religiously) further away from the parents than their religiously-compatible siblings, such details broken down by the gender of the siblings. I would suspect that the atheists live much further away, but that's just a guess.

And on that if the evangelical types "home school" their kids and send then off to an approved Christian college rather than subject them to a secular education in the local high school followed by a normal college is there a major difference? Surely the rise of home schooling suggests anecdotal evidence that the evangelicals are worried about the effects of secular education on their kids. How this will play out will be interesting.

Also wasn't there a documentary type movie about the leftist attitudes on US campuses made recently? I think the guy who made it was known as the Republican Michael Moore. Which brings me to pH's point about US telly. The different America you see in Moore's films is very different to the one we are normally used to seeing.

robindch

...then you may run into trouble with the cabbies. From here:

MINNEAPOLIS - Taxi drivers who refuse service to travelers carrying alcohol at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport face tougher penalties despite protests from Muslim cabbies who sought a compromise for religious reasons, officials said Monday.

The Metropolitan Airports Commission said new penalties were needed to ensure customers get safe and reliable taxi service, and voted to suspend a driver’s airport taxi license for 30 days for the first offense and revoke it for two years for a second offense. The new penalties take effect May 11.

Airport officials say more than 70 percent of the cabbies at the airport are Muslim, and many of them say Islamic law forbids them from giving rides to people carrying alcohol.

Under the old rules, a driver who refused to transport someone carrying alcohol would be told to go to the back of the taxicab line. Airport officials said that since January 2002, there have been more than 4,800 instances of drivers’ refusing to take alcohol-carrying travelers.

Commissioners said the old rules didn’t prevent customers from being stranded at the curb or — as reported in a few cases — dropped off before their destination after drivers learned of their alcohol on board.

Some Somalis who testified Monday urged commissioners to reject the new penalties and find some other solution.

“We see this as a penalty against a group of Americans only for practicing their faith,” said Hassan Mohamud, an imam and an adjunct professor at William Mitchell College of Law.

The airport had proposed one pilot program that had drivers who wouldn’t transport alcohol display a different top light on their cab, but the public’s reaction was overwhelmingly negative and taxi drivers feared it would make travelers avoid taxis altogether.

Dades

Some good new for robindch:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=MHAUSNIDEYQL&rss=rss1

robindch

Ooooh, thanks! I'll be grinning all day over this.

Now, how do we manage this for The Other Lot?

Stephen

Albanian man jailed for setting fire to Ferrari because "god told him to":

thread here - http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055091853
The article on unison requires registration to view.

AN Albanian man who said a "message from God" told him to set fire to a Ferrari car valued at €132,000 has been jailed for five years.

Safet Bukoshi (34), of Whiteoaks, Clonskeagh, told gardai he "received a message from God in English" to burn the Ferrari and his wife's Ford Fiesta, but he was unable to find a lighter to set fire to the Fiesta.

A jury at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court found him guilty on day-five of his trial of arson of two cars, including the €132,000 Ferrari, at Whiteoak, Clonskeagh, on May 12, 2004.

He was also convicted of attempted arson of a petrol pump and setting fire to a brief case and jacket in the forecourt of the Shell Service Station, Roebuck Road, Clonskeagh, endangering customers on the same day.

Judge Frank O'Donnell told Bukoshi: "I regret to have to say, that from the evidence and your likelihood to repeat given the fact you are wanted in Scotland for a similar offence since commiting this one, that you are a walking time bomb." He imposed concurrent sentences totalling five years' imprisonment. Mr Michael O'Higgins, SC, told the judge there was an arrest warrant outstanding for Bukoshi for a fire allegedly set in Scotland before he was picked up by gardai in March 2005. He added the Scottish authorities application to the High Court that Bukoshi be surrendered after sentencing in Ireland had been granted.

Schuhart

Mildly interesting example of the Ireland Dev dreamed of. (Although, admittedly, he hardly would have foreseen Irish speaking Jehovah's Witnesses on the national airwaves.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=53285789#post53285789

I don't share the general hagiography of TG4 as an organisation doing a loaves and fishes jobs with a miniscule budget, so I just want to make a gratutious swipe by pointing out they get essentially the same subsidy as RTE 2 and use it to broadcast old Westerns to 4% of the population.

Of course, they also do innovative home-made programmes. Like Glor Tire, an extremely innovative Country music talent show that spawned You're a Star/X Factor/American Idol. Fancy that, Simon Cowell owing his reputation to an idea pioneered by an Irish language channel in Connemara.

You won't hear the crowd in Dublin talking about it, though. They hate the idea of seeing yet another success story confounding the naysayers, and prefer to sneer at how any gob****e with a blas can point a camera at themselves and get on the air. They prefer to make cheap comments like you'd be broadcasting to a larger audience if you answer your mobile phone on the Dart.

Scofflaw

Schuhart wrote:

I don't share the general hagiography of TG4 as an organisation doing a loaves and fishes jobs with a miniscule budget, so I just want to make a gratutious swipe by pointing out they get essentially the same subsidy as RTE 2 and use it to broadcast old Westerns to 4% of the population.

You won't hear the crowd in Dublin talking about it, though. They hate the idea of seeing yet another success story confounding the naysayers, and prefer to sneer at how any gob****e with a blas can point a camera at themselves and get on the air. They prefer to make cheap comments like you'd be broadcasting to a larger audience if you answer your mobile phone on the Dart.

These are very mixed messages, Schuhart...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Schuhart

Scofflaw wrote:

These are very mixed messages, Schuhart...

Indeed. Halfway through writing the post I was possessed by the spirit of a provincial newspaper editor, hence the sudden conversion to mindless enthusiasm backed by dubious facts in the last two paragraphs.

Zombrex

Stephen wrote:

Albanian man jailed for setting fire to Ferrari because "god told him to":

Thank God the Feista was ok though...

Scofflaw

Schuhart wrote:

Indeed. Halfway through writing the post I was possessed by the spirit of a provincial newspaper editor, hence the sudden conversion to mindless enthusiasm backed by dubious facts in the last two paragraphs.

That explains it. I hope you're over it by Thursday.

cordially,
Scofflaw

robindch

Interesting bits highlighted below:

RTE News wrote:

The Catholic Church has agreed to act as patron for a new primary school in Dublin 15 even though it is believed the vast majority of children attending will not be Catholic. The new school is due to open this September with up to 90 children who have been unable to find places in existing schools in the Diswellstown area. Diswellstown is one of several areas in Dublin 15 which has seen a population explosion in recent years. It has two primary schools, both Catholic, and those schools have enforced a strict enrolment policy giving priority to Catholic children. Both schools are now full and up to 90 junior infants, many of whom would not be Catholic, are believed to have no school place for September. The Dublin archdiocese says it was reluctant to open another Catholic school in the area because it believes the existing schools are sufficient to cater for the Catholic population. But following a request from the Department of Education it has now agreed to act as a caretaker patron for this new emergency school but only until an alternative is arranged. Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has said Ireland needs to quickly find new models of school patronage to suit our changing society. It is not yet known where this new school will be accommodated or what the Department of Education's long-term plans are. The department told RTÉ today that it has no comment to make on the issue.

Religious discrimination is openly permitted, but Martin apparently wants to change things -- I wonder how?

5uspect

Maybe this calls for some aggressive secularism?

PDN

robindch wrote:

Interesting bits highlighted below:Religious discrimination is openly permitted, but Martin apparently wants to change things -- I wonder how?

It appears that one of the most prosperous and best-educated nations in Europe is incapable of establishing a school without having to seek help from the Catholic Church. The mind boggles.

robindch

5uspect wrote:

Maybe this calls for some aggressive secularism?

Out with the old "Ah, come on now" and "Down with this sort of thing" placards again?

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote:

It appears that one of the most prosperous and best-educated nations in Europe is incapable of establishing a school without having to seek help from the Catholic Church. The mind boggles.

I think FF are terrified of alienating the Catholic Church. McCreevy once said there are three important organisations in Ireland. FF, The Catholic Church and GAA. Makes you cringe eh?

5uspect

robindch wrote:

Out with the old "Ah, come on now" and "Down with this sort of thing" placards again?

Shouldn't you be writing your letters to the Irish Times and the Indo now?

Dades

Tim Robbins wrote:

I think FF are terrified of alienating the Catholic Church.

Sounds to me like the catholic church aren't too concerned about the Government alienating their schools - saying "Ireland needs to quickly find new models of school patronage".

Scofflaw

The Atheist wrote:

Sounds to me like the catholic church aren't too concerned about the Government alienating their schools - saying "Ireland needs to quickly find new models of school patronage".

Catholic Church more progressive than Government shock!

"Next they'll be telling us the world isn't flat!" says Minister.

"We must resist the aggressive secularism of the Catholic Church", says Bertie.

cordially,
Scofflaw

robindch

5uspect wrote:

Shouldn't you be writing your letters to the Irish Times and the Indo now?

Things must have been slow last night on the IT's letters page -- my email from last Tuesday evening finally met the public today

5uspect

Nice one. I don't have access at home, I'll pick up a copy later on down the shop.

5uspect

Ars Technica field trip the Creation Museum.

robindch

In what looks like a thoroughly gruesome read, a new book claims that a christian fundamentalist cult set up in Limerick in the 90's and spent much of their time having sex with each other, especially the children. One of whom has written about her experiences and who's due to give an interview on TV3 tomorrow (Friday) morning:

http://www.limerickpost.ie/dailynews.elive?id=8133&category=Daily-Thu
http://www.limerickpost.ie/dailynews.elive?id=8129&category=Daily-Thu

"The Family" is well-known, but I didn't realize that they operated in Ireland. Is anybody aware of anybody who's had contact with them?

Limerick Post wrote:

Castleconnell area was base for child sex cult, claims victim, by Mary Earls

THE shocking story of a religious cult which, it is claimed, set up base in the Castleconnell area in the 1990s, is detailed in a new book published by Harper Collins. THE Children of God Cult, in which orgies and sex between adults and children was considered the highest expression of love, had one of its communes in county Limerick in the late 1990's, it has been claimed in a new book. And Julianna Buhring, who lived in one of the religious cult's rented homes somewhere near Castleconnell for over a year, said she is "positive" the organisation is still active in this region. [...]

"Not Without My Sister" is a newly released book, penned by Julianna and her sisters Celeste and Kristina, about their struggle to escape the perverse community that robbed them of their childhood and saw them live in dozens of countries world-wide to maintain secrecy. The Children of God cult, which was founded by warped leader David Berg, is now known as 'The Family'. And today the three sisters work for a new organisation called RISE International set up to protect children from abuse in cults.

Speaking to the Limerick Post, 26-year-old Julianna alleged that "from as early as three years old, we were treated by our 'guardians' as sexual beings". "Sexual activity was actively encouraged. We received love letters and sexual advances from men old enough to be our grandfathers, and were forced into openly abusive relationships. We were also denied access to formal schooling, forced to beg on the streets for money, and were mercilessly beaten for 'crimes' such as reading an encyclopedia. [...]

"We used to dress up as clowns in Limerick and make a living doing face paintings and going to shopping malls etc. And we raked in loads of money but this all went to the family leadership. I always dreamed about breaking free, but the group constantly instilled fear into us from a young age as regards the outside world. When I finally left at aged 23, I had no money and no idea of how to function in the outside world. People wondered where the hell I'd come from, because I'd no bank account etc. And after I left, I was shunned by family and friends It takes a lot to get out of the clutches of the cult because you were born into this and don't know anything else," she said. [...]

Apart from the gross unpleasantness of the alleged abuse, what strikes me is the common themes between the cult and the more mainstream religions -- control of education and information, instilling fear, rejection of religion causes rejection by family, Jesus coming back soon to judge everybody, obsession with sex, money going to leadership without controls in place, religiously-derived violence is acceptable, etc, etc.