Dublin's Commuter Belt-Really this wide??

Lennoxschips

This is incredible. 15 years ago Ireland didn't have a commuting problem. People lived near their work and took the bus, walked or drove a short distance.

That's quite an achievment by the government, in 15 years they've managed to create the same urban sprawl problems that other countries took decades to create.

What a farce.

BendiBus

Navan Junction wrote:

And there lies the biggest obstacle..

You have to get to the towns to get access

Well, living in towns rather than being dotted all over the place might solve a lot of problems in the area of infrastructure. The lack of alternative urban areas to Dublin is the reason everyone needs to commute to Dublin.

Another thing to note is that not everyones working day is spent in front of a computer.

Aidan1

This is incredible. 15 years ago Ireland didn't have a commuting problem

Not true. Recently I took out my old leaving cert geography book (Brunt, B. (1990) Western Europe: A Social and Economic Geography - there was a 2nd edition in 1997ish) which went into the economic geography of Ireland at the end of the 1980s. In the discussion of regional planning in Ireland, particular attention was paid to the transport problems caused by urban and suburban sprawl since the 1970s boom, with poor regional planning and an inability of central govt to curtail the zoning activities of local govt.

This commuting problem is one that has been growing since the 60s and 70s, the period we had the first sustained phase of economic growth in the history of this state. The state has never formulated a successful national strategy (or even an informal set of rules) to curtail the spread of housing, to meet housing demand with zoned sites in the right areas, or to provide transport solutions in a timely fashion.

There have been some local strategies that have kinda worked - the LUTS/CASP plan in Cork being an obvious example, and things are getting better, despite the fudge that was the NSS. But all that we are doing now is reaping the whirlwind (or the 2 hour commutes) of past neglect.

orbital83

As an extra-long distance commuter myself (living in Longford and working in Dublin city centre full-time) it certainly does take a toll on your life.
The last train home is at 7pm so unless you want to cough up 50 euro for a B&B you can forget about a few drinks or shopping after work.

IE could make life easier by providing later trains and more "semi-express" commuter services which stop at fewer stations.
We had to fight tooth and nail to get the current 6pm service from Dublin to Mullingar

Work performance probably suffers from long-distance commuting too.
This has to be viewed in perspective though - there's plenty of mornings you arrive into work a lot fresher than colleagues who have fallen into bed in a drunken stupor around the same time you were getting up! I assume employment contracts specifying a required radius from Dublin would also legislate against this type of activity?

On my route there would be a large number commuting from Mullingar on a permanent basis. Further out most of the commuters would be short-term - temporary jobs, waiting for transfers, etc.
I also know of people coming from places like Castlepollard (Westmeath), Newtownforbes and Lanesboro (Longford) and have heard tell of individuals making the daily trek from parts of Leitrim

I hoped my commute would be temporary - I aimed to save up for a deposit to bridge the gap between the maximum mortgage available and the price of a flat or house. Unfortunately after 11 months prices have risen much more rapidly than I could save
As a single person on a salary just above the average industrial wage, the nearest to the capital I could afford to buy is Edgeworthstown - almost 70 miles (assuming I want to buy in a private development)
I am now coming round to the idea of renting. It's definitely better value for money in the vastly inflated Dublin market, where average prices are now almost 13 times the average industrial wage of €31k

A Dub in Glasgo

Lennoxschips wrote:

This is incredible. 15 years ago Ireland didn't have a commuting problem. People lived near their work and took the bus, walked or drove a short distance.

Strange because in 1988, I worked in in Fitzwilliam Pl. I used to get the bus from Ballymun to Leeson Street... it took about 1 hour to travel the 6 miles by bus. Dublin always had a commuting problem (from what I remember).

DerekP11

Aidan1 wrote:

Not true. Recently I took out my old leaving cert geography book (Brunt, B. (1990) Western Europe: A Social and Economic Geography - there was a 2nd edition in 1997ish) which went into the economic geography of Ireland at the end of the 1980s. In the discussion of regional planning in Ireland, particular attention was paid to the transport problems caused by urban and suburban sprawl since the 1970s boom, with poor regional planning and an inability of central govt to curtail the zoning activities of local govt.

This commuting problem is one that has been growing since the 60s and 70s, the period we had the first sustained phase of economic growth in the history of this state. The state has never formulated a successful national strategy (or even an informal set of rules) to curtail the spread of housing, to meet housing demand with zoned sites in the right areas, or to provide transport solutions in a timely fashion.

There have been some local strategies that have kinda worked - the LUTS/CASP plan in Cork being an obvious example, and things are getting better, despite the fudge that was the NSS. But all that we are doing now is reaping the whirlwind (or the 2 hour commutes) of past neglect.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you there. In the early 1970s, as Blanchardstown, Clondalkin and Tallaght were planned for social and private housing development, including "town centres" that are now Blanchardstown SC, Liffey valley SC and the Square SC, some poor, but visionary souls in CIE actually drafted a plan to serve these areas by DART. Yes thats right, you read it correctly, DART. In full knowledge of what was planned, the transport iniatives were put in place. The housing went ahead. Transport plans were shelved. Buses went in at a stretch. The Howth - Bray section of rail line got the go ahead (years late) first as it was an existing commuter line. The rest of it was put on the back burner because we had no money. The shopping centres followed. Public transport struggled. CIE tried to reinvent the original plan as a light rail option. (Luas) This was high jacked by Government. Eventually lead to 2 lines and lots of indescision. Then we had to wait until Transport21, until we saw a complete replication and reinvention of what had been proposed over 30 years before. Think M50 folks. Planned in the 70s. Built 80s, 90s, and noughties. Still out of date and subject to massive upheavel to fix the timeline problem.

We did plan for future development of Dublin. Problem was we had no money to implement and when we did get money, we started to implement solutions drawn up in the 1970s. Thats the fault of your Government and Civil Service. Personally, I blame the civil service, because they actaually run the show.

Its a mess. For a complete overview of housing policy, transport infrastructure and poor implementation from 1970 to 2000, read my forthcoming book entitled, "Why do I live here?"

craigybagel

Heard an alternative side to the expanding Dublin commuter belt debate when i played a concert out in Lanesboro last summer.I think it was the local mayor or someone important in the town anyway gave us a speech about the town and how proud they were that with the new commuter trains from Lanesboro people could now live there and work in dublin and it was breathing new life to an area that had been in decline untill then.

Lennoxschips

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Strange because in 1988, I worked in in Fitzwilliam Pl. I used to get the bus from Ballymun to Leeson Street... it took about 1 hour to travel the 6 miles by bus. Dublin always had a commuting problem (from what I remember).

A commuter belt (urban sprawl) problem is what I was referring to, I should have been more specific.

You lived six miles from work, this is good. The ****e public transport is another matter.

Lennoxschips

There have been some local strategies that have kinda worked - the LUTS/CASP plan in Cork being an obvious example

I don't know if I can agree with this, having seen the Kinsale Rounabout with my own eyes. Public transport in Cork is still shocking and the ring road/tunnel has encouraged the development of a commuter belt, with entire plots in small villages being turned into identi-kit housing estates with no proper local amenities. Meanwhile, parts of the innercity aren't very lived in at all. The tunnel and ring road were a good idea, but planning in other areas, such as greenfield housing estates, and shopping centres (Mahon Point, Douglas, Bishopstown Dunnes) right next to the road have meant that the road has been misused for other purposes. There could be some great townhouses/apartments developed in Cork if the council put their minds to it. But now they just want to build a northern ring road as well, while public transport is still only limited to a few meagre bus lines.

The docklands plan for Cork is a good idea though, I hope that goes ahead. That area is in an excellent, accessible location and could be developed into a mixed residential/commercial area allowing short commutes and city living.

bk

Lennoxschips wrote:

I don't know if I can agree with this, having seen the Kinsale Rounabout with my own eyes. Public transport in Cork is still shocking and the ring road/tunnel has encouraged the development of a commuter belt, with entire plots in small villages being turned into identi-kit housing estates with no proper local amenities. Meanwhile, parts of the innercity aren't very lived in at all. The tunnel and ring road were a good idea, but planning in other areas, such as greenfield housing estates, and shopping centres (Mahon Point, Douglas, Bishopstown Dunnes) right next to the road have meant that the road has been misused for other purposes. There could be some great townhouses/apartments developed in Cork if the council put their minds to it. But now they just want to build a northern ring road as well, while public transport is still only limited to a few meagre bus lines.

The docklands plan for Cork is a good idea though, I hope that goes ahead. That area is in an excellent, accessible location and could be developed into a mixed residential/commercial area allowing short commutes and city living.

That is all very nice, but the reality is that Irish people still just don't want to live in apartments. Every Irish person still dreams of the three bed semi. Even people who buy apartments in Dublin, it is usually just a starter and they say that they'll move out when they can.

This is partly the fault of planners and developers, who build apartments like boxes, rather then attractive palces where people might actually want to live and raise a family. But really it is simply ingrained in every persons mind that they want a three bed semi. Sad but true.

lostexpectation

bk wrote:

That is all very nice, but the reality is that Irish people still just don't want to live in apartments. Every Irish person still dreams of the three bed semi. Even people who buy apartments in Dublin, it is usually just a starter and they say that they'll move out when they can.

This is partly the fault of planners and developers, who build apartments like boxes, rather then attractive palces where people might actually want to live and raise a family. But really it is simply ingrained in every persons mind that they want a three bed semi. Sad but true.

so I know this was dicussed a bit in accomodation and in the SOHO thread on archeire but does anybody actually live in new family apartments now?

(not townhouses)

Victor

MarkoP11 wrote:

SeanW makes a very astute observation, distance means nothing its the time taken

Yes and no. Surely its better to have a train serve Leixlip twice in the AM peak than Mullingar once?

mfitzy wrote:

Coyne has noticed a trend for Dublin buyers to commute for a time before finding work locally, perhaps with the Prison Service or healthcare company Abbott Laboratories which are major employers locally.

Um, when the Prison Service Actually get there.

MarkoP11 wrote:

Its more likely got something to do with the fact Martin Cullen (from Waterford) is in charge of CIE and holds the one and only issued share in the three subsidiary companies. Note the new train from Killkenny starts in Waterford, need I say more?

Something to do with ethnic cleansing of south Kilkenny by Waterford City Council? http://www.munster-express.ie/050805/news4.html

markf909

But really it is simply ingrained in every persons mind that they want a three bed semi. Sad but true.

Hammer, nail, head.
I dont know myself what the attraction is but until it changes then the sprawl will go on

dr zoidberg

Yep but even so there is still significant land closer to the capital not being developed, a major example of this is the large green area between Lucan and Blanchardstown which is in the metropolitan area and not a strategic green belt, so development should occur there instead of places like Athy, Enfield etc which are too far in my opinion.

Development should be allowed in certain centres outside Dublin but near enough but it should really be tied to industrial & employment development and commitments to actually make the place a sustainable centre (Naas, Navan etc).

It is true that we did have decent plans for the country, the original plans for DART to Blanchardstown and Tallaght, as well as the Buchanan report in the late 60s which set population targets for sustainable, balanced development (only Dublin actually reached its target, Cork and Limerick were one half of what they should have been). But a lack of money, which might have been valid then, is no excuse now, we're in a stronger position than ever. Even if there is a downturn we'd still be strongly placed and in a position to borrow without fear due to our low debt/gdp ratio compared to other countries. There's no excuse for bad planning and infrastructure in this day and age.

And of course the mentality towards apartments has to change, I think it will now that we have high-quality apartments whereas in the past they were synonomous with poverty and decline (Ballymun etc).

Victor

dr zoidberg wrote:

Yep but even so there is still significant land closer to the capital not being developed, a major example of this is the large green area between Lucan and Blanchardstown which is in the metropolitan area and not a strategic green belt, so development should occur there instead of places like Athy, Enfield etc which are too far in my opinion.

Eh, in the Liffey Valley? Parkland?

dr zoidberg

I was referring specifically to the area from Lucan to Clonsilla, yes the Liffey Valley essentially, it seems like a sizeable chunk of land (especially from the train) but on a closer inspection it is taken up a lot by the likes of Luttrellstown castle and Westmanstown. It was discussed here.

Whatever about the merits of that particular site the point remains that there is significant land near Dublin for development and it need not violate the planning guidelines or undermine the sustainability of the capital.

replytohere2004

dr zoidberg wrote:

Yep but even so there is still significant land closer to the capital not being developed, a major example of this is the large green area between Lucan and Blanchardstown which is in the metropolitan area and not a strategic green belt, so development should occur there instead of places like Athy, Enfield etc which are too far in my opinion.

Yeah, loads of space around Dublin,as this map shows:

(click on thumbnail)






Could we do anything with that blue expanse that is the Irish Sea? 'nawful waste of space!

Lennoxschips

There is also the option of building high-quality terraced housing with streets properly integrated into the city grid. You don't need apartments to achieve better land use. Part of the problem in Ireland is that estates with spiderweb like road systems are built with one access road facing on to a main road. Suddenly multiple estates are built along said main road and all the traffic from the area relies on that single road to get out.

Zoom in on Amstelveen, The Netherlands in Google Earth, you'll see a suburb that was planned properly, with housing and apartments mixed together, a decent road system, metro line and bus corridor.

r3nu4l

dr zoidberg wrote:

Whatever about the merits of that particular site the point remains that there is significant land near Dublin for development and it need not violate the planning guidelines or undermine the sustainability of the capital.

Do you travel on the N4 in the morning? They are already building Adamstown in Lucan which is adding huge numbers of cars to the N4 therefore negating the effect of the N4 widening, so there will be no improvement there and yet you want even more property built between Lucan and Clonsilla!! Are you mad, man?

Metrobest

Lennoxschips wrote:

There is also the option of building high-quality terraced housing with streets properly integrated into the city grid. You don't need apartments to achieve better land use. Part of the problem in Ireland is that estates with spiderweb like road systems are built with one access road facing on to a main road. Suddenly multiple estates are built along said main road and all the traffic from the area relies on that single road to get out.

Zoom in on Amstelveen, The Netherlands in Google Earth, you'll see a suburb that was planned properly, with housing and apartments mixed together, a decent road system, metro line and bus corridor.

Totally agree.

base2

These people deserve every misery they force on themselves. They have the options to improve their standard of living. What job is worth commuting 5 hours a day for? They would be better off working in Tesco in some local town.

And its all because people in this country just have to buy a house.

Schuhart

Victor wrote:

Um, when the Prison Service Actually get there.

Indeed, the article is essentially estate agent hype. That's not to say that the issue they are hyping does not exist in some form. But where we're mostly discussing this on the basis of 'down with this sprawl kind of thing', their perspective is more 'charming dormer bunglalow defacing area of outstanding natural beauty ten miles outside Longford town. Features include toilet discharging bodily waste directly into your drinking water supply. Would suit person working in Sandyford Industrial Estate'.

BendiBus

Schuhart wrote:

'charming dormer bunglalow defacing area of outstanding natural beauty ten miles outside Longford town. Features include toilet discharging bodily waste directly into your drinking water supply. Would suit person working in Sandyford Industrial Estate'.

Classic!

orbital83

base2 wrote:

These people deserve every misery they force on themselves. They have the options to improve their standard of living.

That depends on whether you view standard of living as a function of distance from workplace alone.
There are a multitude of other reasons why people may choose to commute:

• family of 2 working adults earning the average industrial wage, with 2 children and renting in Dublin will need to pay away 25-30% of their gross wage in rent and will probably still face at least 30 minutes travel time each way
• if they lived in somewhere like Mullingar a mortgage would probably cost around 15% of gross income and there would be some capital accumulation... property ownership and inheritance culture won't die in Ireland overnight.
• desire to raise children outside Dublin in what is viewed as a safer and cleaner environment with higher "soft" standard of living
• family connections, e.g. parents, relations, spouse living or working in an area outside Dublin so proximity to them is more important than proximity to work

I don't believe it's unreasonable to ask for a service to Enfield after 6.17pm, a train beyond Greystones after 6.35pm, a train to Mullingar after 7pm etc etc etc
There's no hiding the fact that IE's evening longer distance commuter services are dire - and blaming the passenger for wanting a service won't wash.
It wasn't too long ago P11 were heralding commuting as the future of Irish railways. Perhaps now we should consider truncating the lines from Dublin at Maynooth, Malahide, Greystones and Newbridge respectively

MarkoP11

Commuting is going to be the back bone of the rail network, if intercity wakes up the strong city pairs will probably survive. But is commuting 70 odd miles from Longford sustainable? The ideal rail model is high density development supporting a high frequency electric service, a few random bungalows in Mostrim doesn't hack it.

Problem here is a resource allocation problem, a train that is sent to Longford non stop at 6pm is poor usage of resources as it could make a few out and back trips to Maynooth in the same time at crush loading levels making a real impact on congestion, until such time as the Department of Transport wakes up and provides the resources thats the way things are going to be. But the powers that be have put the brakes on and have refused to fund DART to Kildare and Drogheda. Most people don't realise that Irish Rail are about 60 coaches (40 railcars/20 DART) short of requirements, its a long way to Longford and a long long way back

Here is the big question

Do you run
Long distance train from station x limited stops to Dublin ~300 onboard
Short distance train, capacity loading all stops ~1200-1300

Thats the $64,000 question who has priority? Note the crew in Longford went up the wall when the the new timetable meant all calling at all stations, thats what suburban trains do. I don't know what the answer is but someone in authority is going to have to make a descision, what ever happened to the NSS, what on earth is going on with the greedy developers holding on to land

What is needed is a basic service level based on distance or some other reasonable metric, yes Mullingar deserves a service at 9pm not so sure about Wicklow, to be fair the service levels to both have improved a lot in the last 3 years, Bus Eireann can level with the times no problem off peak particularly to Wicklow.

The problem is a planning one, lots of green space out there, its unsustainable to build dormitory towns 50-80miles from the city, the density is not there to support a super high quality service rail service and the distance means the infrastructure and operating costs are high.

Saruman

I only commute 40 miles or so each way! I live in westmeath and i can get to Blanch in anywhere between 45 mins and 1 hour depending on how many slow trucks i get stuck behind (rarely any actual traffic!!). Getting home takes a little longer at 1hour and 15 mins or so. Either way if i lived anywhere on the northside of dublin.. like finglas etc and worked in Sandyford my commute WOULD be longer!!! And there are much further Dublin commute distances. So unless you are lucky and work within walking/cycling distance then a country commute is just as handy! I would Never move further than i am unless i/we had a local job

orbital83

MarkoP11 wrote:

Problem here is a resource allocation problem, a train that is sent to Longford non stop at 6pm is poor usage of resources as it could make a few out and back trips to Maynooth in the same time at crush loading levels making a real impact on congestion

So what do you suggest as an alternative? Truncate the line at Maynooth and let everyone beyond that go to hell? Even a cursory glance at the Maynooth and Sligo timetables will tell you that Maynooth is already the top priority.

This was illustrated the other evening in Connolly when I was sitting on the 17.00 Connolly-Sligo waiting to depart. It was a few minutes after five and the 16.54 Maynooth train serving all stops was also waiting to leave.
Guess which train leaves first? You got it - the slow Maynooth one.

As a result the Sligo train is 20 minutes late by the time it reaches Maynooth.

For more concrete examples:

• The Sligo early bird was culled in Dec 05 to make room for extra Maynooth trains.
• The morning trains from Longford double as Maynooth suburban services adding 20-25 minutes to the journey time
• The first train from Sligo doesn't reach the capital until 9.55am, so that it doesn't interfere with Maynooth trains.
• 5-10 extra minutes of padding have been added to all Sligo services on the Maynooth-Connolly section, so that Maynooth trains can depart shortly before the Sligo train arrives.
• The evening departures to Sligo were moved out of the 5.01-6.59 peak period to make room for extra Maynooth departures.

Your suggestions about green field sites near Dublin are noble and I would love to live in the world you espouse. However some reality checks are needed.

• The average house price in County Dublin has broken the €400,000 barrier.
• House price inflation is at its highest level this millennium, with no sign of abating.
• There is a general shortage of rental property in the capital, especially medium-sized units. These properties, where available, are expensive.
• The landowners are NOT willing to sell the lovely green fields you see around Leixlip.
• The political will does NOT exist to make them sell the land.
• The infrastructure does NOT exist to service large residential developments in the green field sites around Dublin, and will NOT appear overnight with zero funding.
• As a result of the incompetence and corruption of past administrations, and the poor planning decisions that resulted, many people live beyond a 15 mile radius of their workplace. We cannot wave a magic wand - these people need to get to work, and until the underlying problems around Dublin are sorted, a service to get them there must be provided.

orbital83

MarkoP11 wrote:

a train that is sent to Longford non stop at 6pm is poor usage of resources as it could make a few out and back trips to Maynooth in the same time at crush loading levels making a real impact on congestion,.

The train you refer to exists because IE made a hash of the timetable at the end of last year.

For as long as I can remember there was a train leaving Connolly around 6.15pm running non stop to Mullingar and then serving Edgeworthstown and Longford. It took an hour to Mullingar and roughly another 30 mins to Longford. This train was hugely popular, with standees almost every evening.

In Dec 2005 IE decided to replace this with a train calling at all stops which took 30 minutes longer than before.
Unfortunately the people already living in Mullingar and Longford had no magic way to add an extra hour to their day to compensate for this. Pitching a tent in some field in Liffey Valley didn't seem very attractive, because it had already been a cold winter, and indications were it would get colder. In any case the multi millionaire developer who owned the land would serve an eviction order within hours.
Therefore the Westmeath Examiner, Longford Leader and Cullen's office were bombarded and the result was an 18.00 departure taking roughly the same amount of time as the old express train.

Lesson learned - people live beyond Maynooth - withdraw their services at your peril.

bk

John J wrote:

So what do you suggest as an alternative? Truncate the line at Maynooth and let everyone beyond that go to hell?

I guess the solution would be to quad the lines as far as Maynooth and electrify them for DART. That would free up a lot of rolling stock and line capacity for faster and more frequent distant journeys like Longford.

However I wouldn't hold my breadth.

SeanW

Quad tracking the entire line from Connolly to Maynooth would be OTT and very expensive, where even possible. Don't hold your breath.

However I do believe there is scope to add "middle road" passing loops here and there to allow long distance trains to overtake short ones.

That, in practical terms, would have the same effect as full quad tracking because there will be so few long distance trains vis-a-vis a bunch of DARTs.

The whole "Longford Commuter" service needs to be thrown out and rethought again from scratch.