Dublin's Commuter Belt-Really this wide??

road_high

Just came across the following from the ' Times.I was kinda shocked that Dublin's commuter belt has come out so far from the city (70 miles plus:eek: !!);


Commuter belt reaches the Shannon:

City Living: Dublin's commuter belt is growing quickly, says Edel Morgan

The Dublin commuter belt is gradually subsuming the countryside. Already the belt has a 70-mile radius outside Dublin, according to a report published this week by HOK Country, and this has been helped by improved road and rail infrastructure. A straw poll of country estate agents by City Living found that some Dublin commuters are now buying property located more than 80 miles outside the capital.

The 22 per cent rise in Dublin property prices last year - at a rate of €209 per day - has pushed people even further afield to find a property within their budget. In the quest to get a foot on the elusive property ladder some face a commute of up to five hours daily - about the time it takes to fly to New York.

The 70-mile radius brings towns like Cullahill in Co Laois, Annyalla in Monaghan, Edgeworthstown in Longford and Ballyragget in Kilkenny into the realm of Dublin commuters.

Estate agent Irene Coyne of Longford estate agency Brady McDonagh Casey, says hot spots in Longford for Dublin buyers include Edgeworthstown (65 miles), Longford town (74 miles), Keenagh (a whopping 83 miles from Dublin) and Tarmonbarry village (80 miles)where you can buy a large detached house on the River Shannon for €300,000-plus .

"It's about value for money," says Coyne. "It's much cheaper to buy a four-bed house here. You can buy a house that is twice the size for the same money or cheaper as Dublin."

Coyne has noticed a trend for Dublin buyers to commute for a time before finding work locally, perhaps with the Prison Service or healthcare company Abbott Laboratories which are major employers locally.

Peter McCreery of Sherry FitzGerald McCreery in Kilkenny says the expanding commuter belt has started to impact on Kilkenny.

"We used to watch, with envy to a certain extent, as Carlow benefited from being part of the belt," says McCreery, "but in the last six months, we've had quite a few enquiries for both new and second-hand homes in Kilkenny."

He says the most popular areas are Paulstown (62 miles), Freshford (74 miles), Ballyragget (69 miles) and Thomastown (75 miles) - which are all in Co Kilkenny - and Durrow (64 miles) in Co Laois. Kilkenny city (74 miles) has seen a significant Dublin influx because of its nightlife and amenities.

However, there is one major obstacle that commuters from Kilkenny face every day - the infamous Red Cow roundabout in Clondalkin. "It means they have to leave home earlier and earlier, by around 6.30am, to get in to work at a reasonable time. We are to get more trains, which will improve the situation drastically." McCreery says that large tracts of land have been zoned for housing in Kilkenny which has helped make it an attractive for Dublin commuters. "The local authorities have been very pro-active in terms of executing local area plans so there is very good value in rural towns," he says.

Alison Moffett of Gunne in Monaghan says an increasing number of Dublin commuters are moving to Monaghan thanks to the Carrickmacross bypass. She recently sold a house in Annyalla, three miles outside Castleblayney, to a man with a business in St Margarets in Finglas who intends to commute daily.

One in every 10 sales is to a Dublin person, says Moffett, who says buyers tend to be aged from 28 to 40 and are generally young couples and families who opt for rural properties that "are not too far from a village or town. Not all of them commute every day, some commute only a few days a week. Others are looking for a better life in the country or a house that is affordable. In some cases one half of a couple might commute to a job in Dublin, while the other stays at home with the children."

Broadband and a shift towards people working from home has encouraged more people to abandon the city, says David Ashmore of HOK Country, in the agency's market overview. The report says 65 per cent of the purchasers of country homes on their books were from Dublin, with 5 per cent from overseas.

An improved transport infrastructure and the advent of broadband has seen a shift away from the greater Dublin area towards Louth, Wexford, Westmeath and beyond. Rural seclusion and lakeside properties are highly sought-after. Some buyers are returning to the country after working in Dublin while others want a change of lifestyle or value for their money. Those who want the best of both worlds are relocating while retaining a base in the city.

HOK Country believes that Dublin people will gravitate to the countryside as the roads improve. The Government's €34.4 billion Transport 21 plan aims to improve roads, rail and bus services over the next 10 years. But for those commuting three to five hours a day out of necessity rather than choice, the prospect of an upgraded road and rail network by 2015 may come as cold comfort.

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Lambsbread

It seems really crazy that some people are comuting five hours a day (or 30 a week), in many cases just to buy a house. I'm renting in dublin city and have a 20 min walk to work. I wouldn't change this to a two or even hour commute just to buy a house. But i suppose each to their own.

BendiBus

mfitzy wrote:

Coyne has noticed a trend for Dublin buyers to commute for a time before finding work locally, perhaps with the Prison Service or healthcare company Abbott Laboratories which are major employers locally.

That's interesting. Better for the people involved and the towns. Self-decentralisation. It would be great if true, but I wonder how common it actually is.

I hate the idea of long-distance commuting. It kills life for the city, the town and the commuter/

Navan Junction

Yes, but take the case of some of us that moved to towns just 30 miles away with a 1 hour journey time 5 years ago now with a journey time that is rising up to 2.5 hours at times due to traffic volume increases......

The situation is deteriorating for those living close to Dublin as well..

markf909

Lambsbread wrote:

It seems really crazy that some people are comuting five hours a day (or 30 a week), in many cases just to buy a house. I'm renting in dublin city and have a 20 min walk to work. I wouldn't change this to a two or even hour commute just to buy a house. But i suppose each to their own.

Amen to that, I have a 15 min stroll to work, read boards whilst having my breakfast at about 830 and home by 1745. I rent and there is not a chance of me changing that and commute 90 mins+ just to fall into the Irish psyche of having to "own" property.

markpb

I bought a two bed apartment in Santry and enjoy a 15 minute cycle to work in Clontarf. That said, when I do have to get the bus it takes almost an hour for the same distance.

I can't understand why people would willingly commute 80 miles each way - any benefits from having a nicer house are surely outweighed by never seeing it during daylight.

D'Peoples Voice

Navan Junction wrote:

Yes, but take the case of some of us that moved to towns just 30 miles away with a 1 hour journey time 5 years ago now with a journey time that is rising up to 2.5 hours at times due to traffic volume increases......

The situation is deteriorating for those living close to Dublin as well..

Tell me about it, chapelizod is a nightmare because of all the people using the road up by the mullingar house as a rat run to get to the back of the Laurel Lodge estate in castleknock!
It can really put you off ever heading out after work knowing you will be caught in traffic OUTSIDE YOUR OWN HOUSE by outsiders!

mackerski

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Tell me about it, chapelizod is a nightmare because of all the people using the road up by the mullingar house as a rat run to get to the back of the Laurel Lodge estate in castleknock!
It can really put you off ever heading out after work knowing you will be caught in traffic OUTSIDE YOUR OWN HOUSE by outsiders!

Yeah, who would have guessed that one of the oldest through-routes in Dublin 15 would be used by outsiders???

Dermot

bk

I'd say a lot of these people aren't working full time in Dublin. They are probably only going into the office 2 or 3 days a week and the rest of the time they work from home using BB.

I know a lot of people who do this as I work for a company that encourages it. Another thing is that the company offers flexible work hours, so even these people who commute 2 or 3 days a week, can avoid the rush hour traffic and the journey isn't so long.

Personally I wouldn't do it, I live in the city and enjoy the 15 minute cycle to work, however I can understand how people with a family might be looking for a better quality of life.

markf909

however I can understand how people with a family might be looking for a better quality of life.

While I know that there is a complete lack of any decent family-sized units in or around the city centre, surely this sentiment is a myth?
The notion that children will have a better quality of life becuse they live in a 3 bedroom house with a garden has to be questioned. They are put into the minders for 730AM at the latest and picked up 11 or twelve hours later and they have to see tired and stressed parents every evening who just cant get to spend time with their kids.

BendiBus

bk wrote:

...however I can understand how people with a family might be looking for a better quality of life.

True. The rest of the world has managed to design high density but family friendly developments. We need more of this in Dublin and the other main urban areas.

Schuhart

I'd be wary of taking that article too seriously. It seems to be composed entirely of quotes from estate agents, who I would suggest are just grandstanding to flog their wares.

I particularly like the quote attributed to one that 1 in every 10 houses was sold to someone from Dublin. You feel like filling in the missing questions:

'How many houses have you sold this year?'
'Er, 10.'
'I see, so you think there's a vast social movement going on because you sold one house to some misguided soul from Dublin. Or are you just hoping that if you suggest that living seventy miles away is actually a practical proposition, a few more Kamikaze pilots will turn up?'
'Er, the Kamikaze pilots thing.'

daymobrew

Another thing that people and companies should be looking into is part time working from home. I work from home once a week (I have broadband which helps a lot). I end up working for longer on that day.

A few of my colleagues work remotely full time: France, Toronto, and New Zealand. The NZ guy works late in his day to maximise the common work hours. We use email and IRC all the time.
When I moved back from the US I continued to work for the company, out of my home, for a year. The lack of broadband (thanks eircom!) killed me.

Like the Irish 'need' to own a house, companies seem to have a 'need' to have people in the office. They need to be more open to this. A happy employee is a productive one.

Húrin

This is a discgrace to our country. Ireland's population must decentralise before our quality of life becomes history.

People lucky to live in Dublin also have to stop driving to work and start cycling. It's so much faster, moer enjoyable and easier.

dowlingm

Put wifi on all Dublin long distance commuter trains and suddenly it is even more attractive. I used wifi on a VIA (intercity) train between Toronto and London(Ontario) and found it very usable and even worked when connecting to our Virtual Private Network (albeit slow - about dialup speed).

MarkoP11

Being serious the outer bounds now stretch too
Dundalk, Longford, Athlone, Thurles, Killkenny and Gorey, if you went any further than Dundalk you leave the state

I've seen terms of employment which require you to reside within 30 miles of Dublin City Centre

If you have to do a 2 hour commute to/from Dublin each day you are tired stressed and not able to perform at your best ability. Its infeasible to provide public transport as demand is so scattered

What is truely sad is the fact there is no shortage of land in Dublin city to build on, have a look out the window on the train/bus/car once you get 7 miles west it starts to get very green

SeanW

mfitzy wrote:

Estate agent Irene Coyne of Longford estate agency Brady McDonagh Casey, says hot spots in Longford for Dublin buyers include Edgeworthstown (65 miles), Longford town (74 miles), Keenagh (a whopping 83 miles from Dublin) and Tarmonbarry village (80 miles)where you can buy a large detached house on the River Shannon for €300,000-plus.

What the hell? Edgeworthstown I can understand, less so Longford town, but Dublin commuters buying properties in Kenagh and Tarmonbarry! Those places are so far from the main roads and railways you'd need to be on drugs to want to commute from them.

That said I'm not totally surprised.

I pointed out last year (on the P11 forums) that the Dublin-Sligo train takes 1 hour 1 min to go between Dublin and Mullingar (assuming no intermediate stops).

This is only 10 min longer, or less, than the time it takes a Red Luas tram to get from Connolly to Tallaght. Back then with the Mk2d, you'd also have infinitely more comfort on what was then the 18:10 Sligo train.

Any property experts on here? What's the difference between property prices in Tallaght and Mullingar?

popebenny16

Estate agents and Property developers will basicly market housing as being "one hour" or "two hours" or "on the train line" even better "commuter line" from Dublin.

Recently it has become "one hour from the M50" case in point the recent adverts for a housing development in Athy. The fact that it's more than another hour from the M50 inwards dodnt seem to register.

As motorways and rail services become generally faster that "one hour" will mean that your house can be further and further away.

Yes, the Dublin commuter belt is this wide. I was on the 1835 Commuter Service to Thurles last night. Kilkenny is officialy a Commuter Station. Mullingar is, so is Dundalk and so is Athy.

MarkoP11

SeanW makes a very astute observation, distance means nothing its the time taken

Its very quick get to the M50, but once you try it cross it everything stops which results in a werid relationship where journey time increases only marginally with distance once you cross the M50

BendiBus

popebenny16 wrote:

Estate agents and Property developers will basicly market housing as being "one hour" or "two hours" or "on the train line" even better "commuter line" from Dublin.

It may be one or two hours by train, but maybe only twice in the morning & twice in the evening.

That's the difference between an hour to Tallaght and an hour to Mullingar. You can hop on a Luas at any time. Being tied to a single train in the morning & evening is very restrictive. That would be my particular issue with long distance commuting.

bk

I think the government needs to do the following:

1) Ensure every home in Ireland can get broadband, so those who have the option to work from home, can work from home.

2) Promote and incentives companies to allow people to work from home and flexible time *.

3) Better transport and public transport so people can get into the city faster.

* Companies in the US who leave staff work from home have found a very large increase in productivity. I now personally I tend to work much longer hours when I work form home and most other people I've meet in a similar situation say the same. Also these companies find a massive decrease in sick days taken amongst those who work from home. They find that despite being sick people can still work from home, I know that I haven't taken a single sick day in the last 4 years due to the ability to work from home.

road_high

I'm from Kilkenny- its there before your eyes now all the 06-D reg cars, around the place in the mornings and evenings. Plus the new commuter train in the mornings Irish rail finally started after years of nagging.Dublin is so strong; the whole of Leinster seems to be under its spell!This isn't healthy, and can't be sustainable in an era of higher oil prices surely?So mujch for the NSS.
Unbelievable Thurles is in the commuter belt-90 odd miles from the city!!?Fast rail service must be the draw.

MarkoP11

You can argue that what limited public transport resources be dedicated at the congestion problem in Dublin instead of promoting yet more long distance commuting, you move a lot more people on a train if you keep the journey short as you can make more trips

Afterall there are people crushed in on trains on the Maynooth and Drogheda lines shouldn't those issues be addressed before new destinations are added, it reeks of political interference

There is no shortage of land with 10-15 miles of the city, have a look coming out the N7/M7 and the rail line to Kildare its miles and miles of green fields, why are people travelling 50+ miles to work

Schuhart

SeanW wrote:

What the hell? Edgeworthstown I can understand, less so Longford town, but Dublin commuters buying properties in Kenagh and Tarmonbarry! Those places are so far from the main roads and railways you'd need to be on drugs to want to commute from them.

Can I suggest that a Longford based estate agent is not necessarily a reliable source of market information. I'm not saying that some people aren't buying houses in incredibly distant locations. But I am suggesting that estate agents in the regions have a vested interest in upping the profile of their areas. I'm quite certain that very few people commute from Tarmonbarry. But I'm sure 'Irene Coyne of Longford estate agency Brady McDonagh Casey' would be delighted to show anyone from Dublin around their catalogue of properties.

SeanW wrote:

Any property experts on here? What's the difference between property prices in Tallaght and Mullingar?

I'm no expert, but a quick search on myhome.ie suggests that three bed semi-ds in Lucan can be had for about 390,000. One in Tallaght was listed at more - 475,000. The only three bed listed in Mullingar was 275,000. (Incidently, a four bed detached house in Tarmonbarry is listed for 300,000).

road_high

MarkoP11 wrote:

You can argue that what limited public transport resources be dedicated at the congestion problem in Dublin instead of promoting yet more long distance commuting, you move a lot more people on a train if you keep the journey short as you can make more trips

Afterall there are people crushed in on trains on the Maynooth and Drogheda lines shouldn't those issues be addressed before new destinations are added, it reeks of political interference

There is no shortage of land with 10-15 miles of the city, have a look coming out the N7/M7 and the rail line to Kildare its miles and miles of green fields, why are people travelling 50+ miles to work

Couldn't agree more, but there is a desire by many (usually property developers) in most Leinster towns to become part of the commuter belt with resultant boost to the markets imo.
I reckon a lot of it is choice though; much better job oppurtunities in the city, yet 'live' in your home town.
Irish rail are a law unto themselves as you probably know; logic is often in short supply where they are involved!

MarkoP11

Its more likely got something to do with the fact Martin Cullen (from Waterford) is in charge of CIE and holds the one and only issued share in the three subsidiary companies

Note the new train from Killkenny starts in Waterford, need I say more?

road_high

MarkoP11 wrote:

Its more likely got something to do with the fact Martin Cullen (from Waterford) is in charge of CIE and holds the one and only issued share in the three subsidiary companies

Note the new train from Killkenny starts in Waterford, need I say more?

Yes but there has been serious demand for this train in Kilkenny for years (I remember M O'Rourke visiting Kilkenny to announce it in 1998!)-it starts in Waterford as there is no train depot in Kilkenny anymore-its just a stop-off station now.I wouldn't be a Martin Cullen fan by any stretch of the imagination either by the way.Also this serves Kildare and Newbridge-badly need another morning and evening servic i'm sure.
Also a lot of people with business appointments in Dublin at 9am will use this service- couldn't agree more that the nearer suberbs like Drogheda and Maynooth are crying out for more services- is line capacity not a bigger issue though as a whole- I thought this was the problem in Drogheda and Maynooth-they just physically can't fit any more on the double track plus the lack of space at Connolly??

MarkoP11

No shortage of track capacity or trains that could be made longer

Problem is the viscous circle

Small sleepy village 50 miles from Dublin, someone gets pp for 20 houses and flogs them to young couples from Dublin desparate for a roof, everyone else has the same idea and you get heaps of houses

Then the complaints come in that the long standing early morning train is not longer good enough, local politicos eager to get the votes of all the newcomers mouth off about it, IE claim its not there problem, someone gets to the minister and IE agree to do something.

Local landowners and auctioneers hear this, € signs start flashing and a new round of building takes place on the basis that the promise of a improved rail services will drag more Dubliners in lured by somewhat affordable property

Next thing you get the complaints I live in X I commute to Dublin but the last train home is at 7pm, rant rant can't have a drink/go out etc well tough

Someone somewhere has to stop this madness

_Kaiser_

markf909 wrote:

Amen to that, I have a 15 min stroll to work, read boards whilst having my breakfast at about 830 and home by 1745. I rent and there is not a chance of me changing that and commute 90 mins+ just to fall into the Irish psyche of having to "own" property.

Totally agree.

The problem is the Irish mindset that one MUST own a house, partly/mostly? to be judged successful in the eyes of ones friends and family. I don't buy the "quality of life" argument - how can a 2 hour+ commute, paying ridiculous money for a mortgage, and being exhasted before you even start your working day lead to a better life??? The only ones who are getting a better life out of this are the property developers and the banks/building soceities etc!

The working from home idea is definitely the way forward, but unfortunately many employers still think that unless their workforce are in the office where they can see them, that they'll just be at home on the doss.

It's not wider roads or even more buses and trains that we need. It's a complete change in these attitudes.

Navan Junction

bk wrote:

Ensure every home in Ireland can get broadband, so those who have the option to work from home, can work from home..

And there lies the biggest obstacle..

You have to get to the towns to get access

krankykitty

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Tell me about it, chapelizod is a nightmare because of all the people using the road up by the mullingar house as a rat run to get to the back of the Laurel Lodge estate in castleknock!
It can really put you off ever heading out after work knowing you will be caught in traffic OUTSIDE YOUR OWN HOUSE by outsiders!

Get off your high horse. Everywhere else that YOU drive in, apart from Chapelizod, You are the outsider causing the traffic.

And I live in Chapelizod myself.