What to do? Parents don't know about BF

hill

HelterSkelter wrote:

Hobbs, is your wife a Muslim?

I have no idea, but if she's Korean I very much doubt it.

Traditionally Asians don't approve of marrying foreign white ghosts!

DinoBot

Beruthiel wrote:

Well my irish friend married a muslim, when I say married, it was a muslim wedding, it's not legally recognised as a binding marriage in Ireland.
She did not convert to the religion, but she did learn all the traditional ins and outs, so that would be a good start for the OP’s b/f.

Just as a side note NO "religious" wedding, is legally recognised as a binding marriage in Ireland. Thats why you need to sign the "register". In a christian wedding this normally happens in the church so its seemless. With other religions, like a muslim wedding you have to sign the register at the registery office.

My 2 cents

Hobbes

HelterSkelter wrote:

Hobbs, is your wife a Muslim?

no.

antoinolachtnai

I have been through some of this in real life. I know a little bit about Asian life in the UK, not so much the muslim scene, but I have an idea of what actually goes on.

A lot of the things that are being said here are just plain silly - you guys should keep quiet if this is something you really know little about. There's a big difference between being deeply unhappy that your daughter or sister is marrying an English/Irish boy and being prepared to send out the kidnappers or the lynching mob. I'm not saying it never happens, but it is tremendously rare. Asian parents love their children as much as, maybe more than, anybody else. Intermarriage inevitably happens in the UK, and most Asian families accept it if it happens to them, at least to the extent of being able to live with it.

There are also lots of different degrees. There are 'liberal' and 'conservative' muslim parents, the same as there are for catholics and jews and everything else. The Middle East and Asia is a tremendously diverse place. Muslims from different countries observe Islam to different degrees and in different ways. Sometimes parents get more liberal as they get older. It just depends on background, circumstances, lots of things.

We Irish catholics are hardly in a position to be high-minded about freedom in choosing a partner. Marrying outside the religion was severely frowned upon until the last 10 or 15 years, and this was true to some extent of the Irish community in the UK too. Some vestige of this certainly survives.

It isn't really just a question of whether you should have the right to marry a white Irish boy, it's a matter of whether it's really a good idea for you. It does have a lot of downsides. There will be some degree of friction with your family. Your wedding won't or might not be traditional. It won't make bringing up kids any easier. On the other hand, there are upsides too.

Think really hard about it before doing it. If you're sure it's what you want and you are happy that you are mature enough to make such an important decision, do it. If you're not sure, don't be afraid to leave it. One way or another, it is better if you open some sort of communications channel with your family. I would be surprised if one or other of your parents doesn't have an inkling of what is going on. They were young once too, you know, and even if they are strictly observant, I'm sure they see the TV and read the papers.

Don't discount the possibility that your parents just want you to be happy. Part of the reason for their resistance will always be that they are afraid that it will make married life more difficult for you both. Married life is tough in the best of circumstances and this just makes it harder.

Best of luck with it, if I can help on PM, I'd be happy to.

Wibbs

Hobbes wrote:

Well it depends very much on the family I guess and how strict muslims they are.

The level of strictness is the problem. While there are often hinderances with different cultures and their marriage customs, no amount of sitting down and talking is going to change a strict Muslims mind on this.

It's clearly stated in the Islamic religious texts that a muslim woman may not under any circumstance marry a non Muslim(unless he converts of course). On the other hand, Muslim men are free to marry women of other faiths, hence Beruthiel's friend didn't face as many difficulties(if any). They're two totally different situations. One does little to inform the other.

antoinolachtnai wrote:

A lot of the things that are being said here are just plain silly - you guys should keep quiet if this is something you really know little about.

I have some experience of just this situation. A mate of mine had to leave britain for america with his Muslim wife due to familial "difficulties". Her family certainly didn't appear overly religious at all. Very "western" for want of a better word. They didn't seem too extreme initially, but it ended up being very difficult for them as their relationship became more serious. He tried the whole sit down and talk bit, but as he wasn't prepared to convert, it amounted to little. At this stage they've pretty much had to cut all contact. Funny enough, it was a meeting with her Imam who advised them to leg it as while he didn't approve at all he did appreciate their problem. Fair play to him. There was a report in the sunday times recently about a couple who've been in hiding for ten years because of the families religious objections(extreme case obviously). Apparently there's a support group in the UK for just such couples.

There are also lots of different degrees.

Very true.

We Irish catholics are hardly in a position to be high-minded about freedom in choosing a partner. Marrying outside the religion was severely frowned upon until the last 10 or 15 years, and this was true to some extent of the Irish community in the UK too. Some vestige of this certainly survives.

True too. Catholics, while frowning upon it in the past, don't ban it outright though.

If they are strict (and we're only assuming that) and he's not prepared to convert, I really don't see any amount of talking or learning about customs is going to change anything.

HelterSkelter

Wibbs wrote:

True too. Catholics, while frowning upon it in the past, don't ban it outright though.

I think you are wrong there (although I am open to correction!). I've heard stories of Protestants who had to convert to Catholics in order to marry a Catholic. Don't you have to promise to bring your children up as Catholics as well?

Wibbs

That's possible, especially the children bit(that rings bells). It's not in the religious texts AFAIR. The Islamic texts are clear on the subject though. Basically it was easier for the catholics to stop enforcing it as it wasn't pure doctrine(for a start there were no protestants/catholics in the time of jesus). With Islam a change in the texts is largely unthinkable, especially if they're religious.

Húrin

HelterSkelter wrote:

You don't spend time alone together until you get married.

Surely this makes for many terrible marriages?

the_new_mr

H&#250 wrote: »

HelterSkelter wrote:

You don't spend time alone together until you get married.

Surely this makes for many terrible marriages?

Well, I'd just to point out a little misconception here. This thread is absolutely filled to the rim with misconeptions actually but I'll take this one for now

Although a couple aren't allowed to spend time alone together they are completely allowed (and indeed are very much encouraged) to spend time together to get to know one another during the engagement period as long as it is in the company of one of the woman's family members. In keeping within these boundaries, I have personally seen many a happy marriage thank God and I hope that they continue that way

Now, to the topic at hand.

Salam Twigy!

Sorry for not replying to your post first but I just wanted to iron out that misconception first as I'm sure you can understand.

I'm sorry to hear that you find yourself in such a predicament and are feeling so confused. I hope that you find the best way through it God willing.

There is some information here that is missing that would be helpful such as your age, his age, his knowledge of Islam, the extent of your relationship, how adhering you are to Islam, how adhering your partents are to Islam etc.

I'm sure there are some things that you would probably like to keep private (if for internet security alone). Remember, never give out your real name or address on the net

Anyway, you should certainly talk to your mother as soon as possible (and preferably father as well). You asked "Is it too soon to tell her?" but I think that, if anything, it's very late.

I don't mean to come on all righteous or anything but I'm sure you know that having a b/f (or g/f) in Islam isn't okay. Anyway...

If you feel that it would be better to tell your mother first so as to soften the blow for your father then I guess you should do that. Still, that doesn't mean that you should plan to "keep it secret" from your father for any more than a day really. Secrets and lies are a bad strategy in life and are contrary to the teachings of Islam.

Now, depending on how much your parents adhere to Islam, their reaction could be widely different. If they can be classified as practicing Muslims then they are likely to feel betrayed and probably quite upset and this is to be expected. They may still feel this way even if they aren't practicing Muslims too by the way so I guess I didn't give any useful information there

If you want to get married then that's a good thing but there's the obvious point of his religion. This is a long topic and one that you should probably do some reading on. I'll send you some stuff that might help. Also, I'm not a religious scholar so it would probably be best to talk to one. Maybe you can head down to a local mosque? Or maybe you could call one on the phone if one is not nearby?

I think that after talking to an imam, your next move should be to discuss the situation with your male friend and 'give him the low-down'. See what he says and take it from there.

If all goes well with your friend then I think that you're the only one who can work out exactly what to say to your mother (and then your father).

I pray that everything goes well for you God willing. Let us know.

Salam!

Wibbs

the_new_mr wrote:

Although a couple aren't allowed to spend time alone together they are completely allowed (and indeed are very much encouraged) to spend time together to get to know one another during the engagement period as long as it is in the company of one of the woman's family members.

Maybe for the Islam forum, but is it ok for young men and women to mix if they have family members present before any talk of engagement so they may get a better idea of what type of partner they may want to marry?

There is some information here that is missing that would be helpful such as your age, his age, his knowledge of Islam, the extent of your relationship, how adhering you are to Islam, how adhering your partents are to Islam etc.

That would help. If he's a muslim, then the only real issue is the boyfriend/girlfriend bit that would be frowned upon. I'd say your probably fine in that case. Just a question of breaking it to them. Your mother first being the likely easier course.

I'm sure there are some things that you would probably like to keep private (if for internet security alone). Remember, never give out your real name or address on the net

Very good advice. Goes without saying.

I don't mean to come on all righteous or anything but I'm sure you know that having a b/f (or g/f) in Islam isn't okay.

I think she spotted that little problem.:)

Now, depending on how much your parents adhere to Islam, their reaction could be widely different. If they can be classified as practicing Muslims then they are likely to feel betrayed and probably quite upset and this is to be expected. They may still feel this way even if they aren't practicing Muslims too by the way so I guess I didn't give any useful information there

True enough. Many, if not most cultures may be prone to flipping out over the secrecy angle and resistance to the cross cultural part(Hobbes story covers the second part of that. Worked out for him so....).

If you want to get married then that's a good thing but there's the obvious point of his religion.

This is where it deviates from Beruthiel's muslim man marrying a non Muslim woman example. It has to be said it's easier if the gender roles are reversed. Muslim men just don't have this restriction(why? Your answer's as good as mine.)

I think that after talking to an imam, your next move should be to discuss the situation with your male friend and 'give him the low-down'. See what he says and take it from there.

Translation; unless your parents are very non practicing your partner will have to convert to Islam or any marriage is a non starter. That's the essence of the "lowdown". Your family and the Muslim community at large in your area may not accept the marriage(in public anyway, like it was in Ireland in the past). No amount of religious research or scholarship will change that. If he does want to convert for you(and he does a lot of research and reading beforehand as it's not a step to be taken lightly at all) then that's one less obstacle. The biggest one really.

If all goes well with your friend then I think that you're the only one who can work out exactly what to say to your mother (and then your father).

If he does want to convert or is a Muslim already, I suspect your parents will come around to the whole idea. Good luck with it anyway. Not an easy situation to be in.

growler

Wibbs wrote:

Translation; unless your parents are very non practicing your partner will have to convert to Islam or any marriage is a non starter. That's the essence of the "lowdown". Your family and the Muslim community at large in your area may not accept the marriage(in public anyway, like it was in Ireland in the past). No amount of religious research or scholarship will change that.

Or you could just follow your instincts and your heart, ignore the restrictions that your parents and religion would wish to impose on you, have a civil marriage if you so wish, continue to practice your own faith, and get on with trying to have a happy life free of rules created by those who seek to control people through fear and ignorance, and enjoy the freedoms that life in 21st century Ireland can offer you.

Neither you nor your boyfriend "have" to do anything, you have many choices open to you, don't let what society, community or even your parents want you to do interfere with your pursuit of happiness. You've only got one life.

the_new_mr

Well, I certainly don't want to turn this into a debate (as this thread is about Twigy) but I just want to point out to Growler that a Muslim (and follower of any religion that believes in God for that matter) would not want to do something against their religion because they wouldn't want to do something against what God says. It's not just a case of "terms and conditions apply"

Growler wrote:

You've only got one life.

Great advice there but you should keep in mind that, if you believe in an afterlife, you only have one life in preperation of the afterlife too. Anyway, this forum isn't for this kind of religious discussion so I'll stop here

Wibbs wrote:

Maybe for the Islam forum, but is it ok for young men and women to mix if they have family members present before any talk of engagement so they may get a better idea of what type of partner they may want to marry?

Totally okay, encouraged and is usually carried out.

Wibbs wrote:

That would help. If he's a muslim, then the only real issue is the boyfriend/girlfriend bit that would be frowned upon.

Well, I guess I assumed from her statement of "going out with an irish man" that he wasn't Muslim.

So, hope to hear from you soon Twigy and, God willing, it'll all work out for the best in the end.

growler

the_new_mr wrote:

Well, I certainly don't want to turn this into a debate (as this thread is about Twigy) but I just want to point out to Growler that a Muslim (and follower of any religion that believes in God for that matter) would not want to do something against their religion because they wouldn't want to do something against what God says. It's not just a case of "terms and conditions apply"

Great advice there but you should keep in mind that, if you believe in an afterlife, you only have one life in preperation of the afterlife too. Anyway, this forum isn't for this kind of religious discussion so I'll stop here
.

Twigy didn't post this question with any caveat as to the eternal well being of her soul or adherence to islamic doctrine. Whatever you're own religious beliefs I don't think you have the right to tell anyone what they "have" to do. You are irresponsible if you think it is ok to encourage this girl to follow a course of action that may well end her relationship, and her possible future happiness with her boyfriend , out of fear of possible repercussions in some "heaven".

The Corinthian

Wibbs wrote:

If he does want to convert or is a Muslim already, I suspect your parents will come around to the whole idea.

Why should he convert?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

because he'll go to hell otherwise?

[Jackass]

..........

Sorry, not to be disrespectful, but am i the only one who finds the vice like grip religion has over some peoples lives highly disturbing and makes them small minded and ignorant in some cases?

Live your life in anyway you want, even if that is under the grip of a religion, but I honestly pitty some of these people.

Freedom of expression is a beautiful thing.

metrovelvet

Would you consider eloping?

up for anything

Originally Posted by HelterSkelter

You don't spend time alone together until you get married.

H&#250 wrote: »

Surely this makes for many terrible marriages?

It is only a fairly recent development that here in the West people are 'allowed' to marry someone that hasn't been picked out for them by their family. Most marriages throughout the ages have arranged to allow for social and financial advantages to both sets of families. Even when picking your own marriage partner became more acceptable there was still a custom of chaperonage.

My mother and father throughout their courtship were chaperoned. The only time they were allowed out together with a chaperon was when they were on horseback and my mother was made to swear that she wouldn't dismount from her horse under any circumstances (God help her if the horse threw her ). They are still happily married 56 years later.

I wonder how the OP has managed to have a relationship of 18 months duration with a man without her family finding out. She must live away from home which would lead me to believe that they are not strict muslims so she has probably nothing more to fear than a huge row and a coolness for a while and would certainly not be the victim of an honour killing or some such. It would be interesting if she would come back and post a bit more information about her situation. She gave us very little to go on so any advice given is really based on conjecture.

Sangre

agent smith wrote:

i'm just wondering, why not?

Because technically Islam allows polygamy and polygomy is illegal in Ireland. Therefore a muslim marriage isn't considered valid, it has nothing to do with it being another religion though.

the_new_mr

You're entitled to your own opinion Growler but Twigy did post this originally in the Islam forum. Also, I'm only giving her advice and knowledge. I'm not telling her what to do. That's up to her. She did ask after all. Anyway, I'd like to put an end to this and call it a truce if you don't mind out of respect for Twigy's post.

Before I end this post, just wanted to make sure that people know that "honour killings" are un-Islamic.

BigCon

I think the key questions here are:
(1) how important is her faith to her
(2) how important is respecting her parents wishes is to her.

IMO, if she considers her love for her bf stronger than both, then she should carry on and feck the the lot of them.
If on the other hand, she wants to adhere to her religion or parents (or both), then she needs to tell them with the likely outcome of her having to end the relationship.
The answer seems obvious to me, but then I don't consider my religion as something that must dictate how I live my life...

Bogey

I read.

And didn't see Twiggy appear to explain whether or not she was muslim and BF was RC, or if this was even the central issue. All I know is she identifies him as "an Irish man," oddly (on an Irish discussion board) that this might be a "minus." Maybe he's toothless? Maybe he's 30 years older? Maybe he's 50 and still lives with his mother?

I refuse to answer until Twiggy appears to explain herself.

The Corinthian

Twigy wrote:

I have been going out with an irish man for almost a year and a half now. We want to get married. Problem is....i haven't told my parents yet. They don't even know i ever had a boyfriend and are sure to over react if they find out. I would like to tell my mum about him(she will be more understanding hopefully). Not sure how to approach it! Have any of you been in a similar situation? Is it too soon to tell her? What should i say? Confused:(

I’ve seen similar situations in the past. Your problem should be looked at in two ways, firstly is the difference in religion and secondly is the difference in culture. I separate the two because it is probably the latter that is causing most of your problems in reality. Bosnian and Albanian Muslims have been happily mixing and intermarrying with Christians for centuries after all.

How Islam is interpreted is often down to regional considerations (or more recently, how much the Saudi government is funding western mosques) and this means that there is a fair bit of variation on what is acceptable or not between the different schools of Islamic law.

With regard to him being a boyfriend, and this is all you’re asking, I suggest you let the matter rest and simply keep it from your family. You gain nothing from telling them other than conflict and if you eventually break up with him then they’ll not be any the wiser.

If you’re considering marriage (which I don’t think you ever suggested here), then things become more complicated.

I do think that while his conversion might seemingly solve things, it’s a poor solution. To begin with conversion for such reasons is hardly genuine and secondly I really don’t see why it has been assumed here that it’s up to the Christian to convert.

Why the Hell should he be an apostate?

More practically, I would consult an imam prior to telling your parents in that situation. Preferably from the Hanafi school, but importantly, the more liberal the better. You’ll need all the religious and legal ammunition you can get for when you go to them as this will both counter their own religious arguments and give them an acceptable ‘out’ where they can accept your fiancé.

Ultimately, however, the gap may be too wide to bridge. This, as I’ve said, is not really down to religion, but culture. In that situation you may need to decide if you are willing to lose your family (although in time - and grandchildren - they may come to accept your choice) or lose your love.

the_new_mr wrote:

Before I end this post, just wanted to make sure that people know that "honour killings" are un-Islamic.

It’s cultural. Honour killings existed in Europe too not so long ago. In France and Italy we had ‘crimes of honour’ or ‘crimes of passion’ on the statute books up until recently (I recommend watching the Mastroianni comedy Divorzio all'italiana with regard to this). Even today, you still seem to get about one crime of this nature in southern Italy every month.

Having said that, it certainly does seem to be condoned by imam’s in some places where it’s practiced, so you can’t really wash your hands of it if they do not agree with your interpretation of it being un-Islamic.

Twigy

All of you are listing out the facts i have gone through over and over in my head. My boyfriend has done a lot of research on islam and he is thinking about converting. Only because my parents said that there is no way i am marrying a non muslim. Having said that,my mum also said it might be ok if i can get him to convert. She will get used to the idea quicker than my dad will. He is the main problem. The problem with telling my mum now is she wont let me see him until we are ready to get married,because she doesn't want "anything" to happen. And we are not ready to get married just yet. More a financial issue than anything else. I am going to tell her,i just want to figure out when it is the right time to do that? They will get used to it after a while,they are not cruel by any means. But i dont want to give up the little time that i do get to spend with him! My parents are strict in the going out ever department. I almost never go out at night, and when i go out during the day (rarely) they have to know who im with and where we are going. Im 21!! But im used to it,i have my own ways around their rules:p anyway more advice on the issue at hand please if you all have some left in you.
Thanks.

Beruthiel

If they are going to stop you seeing him, then I would say nothing until you plan to get married.

Twigy

BigCon wrote:

I think the key questions here are:
(1) how important is her faith to her
(2) how important is respecting her parents wishes is to her.

I respect my parents a lot and i would never do anything to hurt them. I would not marry him if i really thought my parents would be hurt by it. They will need to be convinced that their only daughter isn't throwing the rest of her life away and that is the hard part! My religion is also very important to me. But i dont think marrying him will make me any less muslim.

Twigy

I dont like all this sneaking around,thats all. I mean its a big part of my life and i want them to know and understand that> maybe its too much to ask

Twigy

Bogey wrote:

I read.

And didn't see Twiggy appear to explain whether or not she was muslim and BF was RC, or if this was even the central issue. All I know is she identifies him as "an Irish man," oddly (on an Irish discussion board) that this might be a "minus." Maybe he's toothless? Maybe he's 30 years older? Maybe he's 50 and still lives with his mother?

I refuse to answer until Twiggy appears to explain herself.

My boyfriend is irish,he is 23 and he is not a muslim or a catholic,he is just spiritual.

The Corinthian

Twigy wrote:

Only because my parents said that there is no way i am marrying a non muslim. Having said that,my mum also said it might be ok if i can get him to convert. She will get used to the idea quicker than my dad will. He is the main problem.

Are you saying that his nationality rather than faith is an issue also? If so, that’s not a religious objection, that’s a racist one.

My parents are strict in the going out ever department. I almost never go out at night, and when i go out during the day (rarely) they have to know who im with and where we are going. Im 21!! But im used to it,i have my own ways around their rules:p

You live under their roof. As long as you do you must abide by their rules, or at best circumvent them.

I respect my parents a lot and i would never do anything to hurt them. I would not marry him if i really thought my parents would be hurt by it. They will need to be convinced that their only daughter isn't throwing the rest of her life away and that is the hard part! My religion is also very important to me. But i dont think marrying him will make me any less muslim.

You may not be able to have your cake and eat it, I’m afraid.

Twigy

Thats just it though! I know that they wont be hurt,otherwise i wouldn do it. They are not racist, they dont care where the guy is from,as long as he is not a muslim(convert or otherwise) they will not let me get married to him.