Census

seamus

The Government doesn't really care if you're Atheist. If they see a reduced number of RC's being mentioned in the census, then there's less supports and grants to the RC church, and less desire to have religious schools, etc. By the same token, if they see there are more Muslims, then they know that they will need more services for Muslims.

If they see more Atheists, then it makes bog all difference. As far as planning and the government go, Atheist and "No religion" are equivalent.

Zillah

Yes but if you let your family put you down as RC, that artificially inflates the numbers of RC in total. So no, the numbers gained by atheists don't matter, but the numbers lost by everything else do.

lostexpectation

seamus wrote:

If they see more Atheists, then it makes bog all difference. As far as planning and the government go, Atheist and "No religion" are equivalent.

yes it does, the more athiest or non-religious equals less RCs (excluding migrant), which means more non/muti-domenatianal schools which means less power for the Bishops to have a stranglehold on our education system which means the gov will get off their buts and take control of it away from those dinosaurs and ....

seamus

Yes, missing the point, I probably didn't make that clear enough. Putting down Atheist makes bog all difference to putting down "No Religion".

Dades

seamus wrote:

Yes, missing the point, I probably didn't make that clear enough. Putting down Atheist makes bog all difference to putting down "No Religion".

The point was not really addressed. I think I can say that nobody here believes putting down "atheist" with/instead of "no religion" makes any difference in government policy. We all know they'll be counted together. The only plus is that it might make more interesting reading for us here in this forum when the results are published.

On the other hand we all recognise that parents ticking RC for non-religious children is the real culprit in skewing the results.

lostexpectation

I do think no religion sorta says... never had religion in the first place, while athiest means ( I was born into a religion I now reject the whole concept)

I presume most agnostics wrote in the other box agnostic.

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandsex2002.htm

Agnostic 1,028
Atheist 500
No religion 138,264
Not stated 79,094

hmmm?

It would be interesting to see religion by family group (or even more complicated family generational line)

See how many families with no religion out there...

samb

Èverybody who does not follow a religion (i.e Athiests, Agnostics) should IMO have classed themselves as No Religion. I can't see why people want to confuse the results by specifing the exact word they use to describe their lack of religous belief.
a breakdown into athiest/agnostic would be interesting but so would a breakdown of RCs into those that actually believe in transubstansiation, contraception, divorce etc.

samb

lostexpectation wrote:

I do think no religion sorta says... never had religion in the first place, while athiest means ( I was born into a religion I now reject the whole concept)

I presume most agnostics wrote in the other box agnostic.

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandsex2002.htm

Agnostic 1,028
Atheist 500
No religion 138,264
Not stated 79,094

.

Why do you presume most agnostics wrote in the other box? Do you think that thier were only 1,028 agnostics in 2002? Most sensible athiests and agnostics read the question and concluded that they follow 'No Religion'. There were 1,028 Agnostics and 500 athiests who stupidly concluded that the religion that they follow is atheism or agnostism.

Scofflaw

samb wrote:

Why do you presume most agnostics wrote in the other box? Do you think that thier were only 1,028 agnostics in 2002? Most sensible athiests and agnostics read the question and concluded that they follow 'No Religion'. There were 1,028 Agnostics and 500 athiests who stupidly concluded that the religion that they follow is atheism or agnostism.

Well, thanks a bunch. Personally, I write in Atheist because that's what I am and I'm interested to see it appear on the statistics instead of that wishy-washy "No Religion" which covers agnostics, atheists, undecided, people who might be Catholic but don't practice enough to be good at it, and people who don't give a toss about the whole question.

As far as anyone can tell from the Census, there are only 500 atheists in Ireland - those of "No Religion" literally cannot be counted as such, because there's no way of telling what they meant, whereas it's entirely clear what people who write "Atheist" mean (assuming they spell it correctly, that is).

Who are you to decide that people who didn't do what you did are "stupidly concluding" something they're absolutely not? Are you God, perhaps?

Yes, I would like an apology, although I'll be surprised to get one.

insulted,
Scofflaw

seamus

Scofflaw wrote:

As far as anyone can tell from the Census, there are only 500 atheists in Ireland - those of "No Religion" literally cannot be counted as such, because there's no way of telling what they meant, whereas it's entirely clear what people who write "Atheist" mean (assuming they spell it correctly, that is).

You see, here's the thing: Why does it matter? You'll look at the statistics and say "Oh look, there are 250,000 Atheists in Ireland. Great. Hey, what's on TV?". It's not like you're all gathering in halls, discussing your proofs of God's non-existence, and damning all of those who believe otherwise. Why do you need to stand up and be counted? The very point of atheism is that you don't subscribe to the entire religion thing, and thus the "need to be counted" is moot. The opposite of religious fervour isn't religious hatred. It's religious apathy.

samb

Sorry.....but I can't apologise:p . You have still filled in the form incorrectly because atheism is not a religion.
I would like to see a more complete picture or breakdown also but as it is, the No Religion box is the box for atheists et al.
On the christianity forum a while back somebody said there were only 500 atheists in Ireland-this misinformation stems from your mistake. Atheism is not a religion, so why would you say it is by writing it in under the other religion section.

pH

The opposite of religious fervour isn't religious hatred. It's religious apathy.

This state of ours still enforces the majority's religious wishes on those who do not subscribe. Some issues (like what we can and cannot do on Sunday) are purely religious positions.

The census builds a picture for the government of the makeup and needs of the population. The bigger the counted 'non-religous' constituency the sooner we'll see the state leaving religion out of things like education, social services and health care.

The thing is - it matters a great deal, I can assure you that as an atheist, I am not the least bit apathetic towards religion.

ap·a·thy
Function: noun
1 : lack of feeling or emotion : IMPASSIVENESS
2 : lack of interest or concern : INDIFFERENCE

Census 2006

13 What is your religion? (one box only)

1. Roman Catholic
2. Church of Ireland
3. Presbyterian
4. Methodist
5. Islam
6. Other, write in your RELIGION
7. No Religion

Given that atheism and agnosticism are not religions (read the question) the correct answer is 7 - No religion. Anything else is a little silly.

Scofflaw

samb wrote:

Sorry.....but I can't apologise:p . You have still filled in the form incorrectly because atheism is not a religion.
I would like to see a more complete picture or breakdown also but as it is, the No Religion box is the box for atheists et al.
On the christianity forum a while back somebody said there were only 500 atheists in Ireland-this misinformation stems from your mistake. Atheism is not a religion, so why would you say it is by writing it in under the other religion section.

Well, you'd be correct if either (a) I thought that Atheism was a religion (obviously not!) or (b) I thought that writing it on the census form somehow affected my atheism (by, what, making it a religion?).

I don't think either of those things. I wish atheists to be counted on the census - the only place to do so is in the Religion question. I'm interested in the practical result, which is a headcount of atheists, not some silly "point" about atheism not being a religion. You and pH simply will not show as atheists on the statistics, because you have decided that the "correct" thing is not to be counted. Therefore, if someone wants to cite the number of atheists in Ireland in 2002, they can only give the figure of 500, because it's the only available figure for people who describe themselves as atheists.

I don't have a problem with your choice as opposed to mine, although it means we don't have an accurate count of atheists. Your assumption that I (and others) made some kind of stupid mistake is what is offensive.

regards,
Scofflaw

lostexpectation

look at the numbers

No religion 138,264
Not stated 79,094

thats 221,500 people who are either private minded or non-religious

*clutches straws*

Zombrex

Scofflaw wrote:

I wish atheists to be counted on the census - the only place to do so is in the Religion question.

But it still isn't properly counted.

That would only work if every atheist did what you did and ticked religion and wrote Atheist. I think that thread has shown that a lot of atheists would fill the form out correctly and tick "No Religion"

So any "Atheist" column in the final statistics is going to largely meaningless and also contain a lot less atheists than there actually are.

This method, along with being an incorrect way to fill out the form, also gives a result as meaningless to the real population of atheists as simply ticking "No Religion"

Also I agree with Samb, by doing it this way you kinda validate the method to the get the result, which then allows people to say ridiculous things like there are only 500 atheists in Ireland which is nonsense.

Scofflaw

...except that if enought people do it, they have to put in Atheist as a choice, and then even you can tick with a clear conscience.


Ah well, it's not really worth arguing about - you think I'm silly, I think you're silly, we'll let it rest there. I shouldn't have bothered to get offended.


cordially,
Scofflaw

pH

But at the heart of it the question is very precise, it's not about belief or disbelief in a God but about membership of a relgion.

My other half had no problem answering 'No' when I ask her if she believes in god, yet still ticks 'Roman Catholic' on the census. I guess at some level she feels she's still a 'member'.

No one would want 'atheism' listed as a religion(except maybe some very right wing Christians) as that would lead us down another path

Scofflaw

pH wrote:

But at the heart of it the question is very precise, it's not about belief or disbelief in a God but about membership of a relgion.

No one would want 'atheism' listed as a religion(except maybe some very right wing Christians) as that would lead us down another path

Why would we not? I think you might be mistaking the census form for real life - it is a form for recording statistical information, and there's certainly no other sensible place on the form to record that you're an atheist. The question should ideally read "Religious Position" rather than "Religion", but that's a minor quibble - I'm not particularly worried about how the CSO phrase the question, as long as they record the information I want recorded. I don't allow the church to dictate to me, why should I let the CSO do it?

It's true that effectively the question is too blunt - that your other half would tick RC while disbelieving in God means she's effectively answering the question based on her "religious culture" - in which case Atheist is still correct for me to write in, since I'm a third-generation atheist!

Of course, this might relate to the fact that I am a very long way past the age of doing exams...there is no such thing as a "correct answer" to a lot of questions on the census.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

Scofflaw wrote:

Why would we not? I think you might be mistaking the census form for real life - it is a form for recording statistical information, and there's certainly no other sensible place on the form to record that you're an atheist.

Not really.

The government isn't asking about your actual personal beliefs. For a start they don't care. They are asking what religion do you follow. If you don't follow a religion then you don't follow a religion. If you don't follow a religion because you hate God and want to spit on him, or you don't follow a religion because you don't believe in him in the first place is rather irrelevent.

It would be nice to have something to record the general atheist population in Ireland, but the census isn't really the place to do it because the government is not interested in your beliefs only in the religious organisations you claim to follow. They are trying to get membership of these organisations, not if you actually believe in any of it. And an atheist doesn't follow any religious organisation.

To me, its kinda missing the point of the question to put down "Yes I follow a religion and that religion is Atheism"

Dades

I don't understand why people are getting so bee-in-their bonnet about people filling in atheist on the census form. If Asiaprod was in the country and wrote "Buddhist" (not a religion strictly either, I'm informed) in the box, would people be so indignant?

As atheists/agnostics the form is effectively meaningless anyway, given the apparant inaccuracy of the RC return. People who write in atheist/agnostic, will still be counted as "no religion" when the calculations are made. Why become the Form Police just because some people want to actually record their feelings in a form that will be of negligible use anyway?

parsi

KittyKat wrote:

Another stupid census question: "How many people in your family were born alive?" Haha! What has that got to do with the population in Ireland? Do the people dead really matter??

Read it again - the question is asked of women only and asks "how many children were born alive".

See here for the reasoning -> http://www.cso.ie/census/New_Questions.htm

Zombrex

The Atheist wrote:

I don't understand why people are getting so bee-in-their bonnet about people filling in atheist on the census form. If Asiaprod was in the country and wrote "Buddhist" (not a religion strictly either, I'm informed) in the box, would people be so indignant?

Its seems to me its the other way around, people seem to have a bee-in-their bonnet about people ticking "No Religion" because seemingly that means we are not counted, even though we are counted in the category that actually is being counted (what religion do you follow). Or they seem annoyed that the government isn't asking them directly "Are you an atheist", even though personal belief isn't the point of the question.

Personally I don't care if someone wants to select "other" and write Atheist, but it seems pretty pointless since it isn't a religion to be followed and it is never going to give a correct number of atheists anyway since this thread has domenstrated that a lot of atheists tick "No Religion"

So the reason to do it (that we will get an accurate count of atheists in Ireland) is invalid in the first place since, well, we won't.

But lets stop all the hussing and the fighting ... it seems silly when we have a whole bunch of young naieve gullable Christians only 2 forums down to abuse

Big "atheists-immoral-going-straight-to-hell" group hug!

Zombrex

The Atheist wrote:

People who write in atheist/agnostic, will still be counted as "no religion" when the calculations are made.

Are you sure about that. Do they not fall into the "Other Stated" category?

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

Are you sure about that. Do they not fall into the "Other Stated" category?

No - surprisingly, the people at the CSO actually know that Atheist means "No Religion", and we get counted under that heading for all practical purposes. Of course, if you're a write-in Atheist, you also get broken out separately in the statistics - as seen here from the 2002 census.

regards,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

Scofflaw wrote:

No - surprisingly, the people at the CSO actually know that Atheist means "No Religion", and we get counted under that heading for all practical purposes. Of course, if you're a write-in Atheist, you also get broken out separately in the statistics - as seen here from the 2002 census.

regards,
Scofflaw

Not sure that is true, the numbers don't add if up that is the case.

If you put down "Other" and write "Athesist" you fall under the "Other" category. You are not copied into the "No Religion" category as well, you don't show up there. And in the brief summary you appear under the "Other Religion" category.

But don't know much about it, I'm just looking at the numbers.

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

Not sure that is true, the numbers don't add if up that is the case.

If you put down "Other" and write "Athesist" you fall under the "Other" category. You are not copied into the "No Religion" category as well, you don't show up there. And in the brief summary you appear under the "Other Religion" category.

But don't know much about it, I'm just looking at the numbers.

Sure. That was why I said "for all practical purposes" - that is, the government looks at us as "no religion" at the moment, because there aren't enough atheists to trigger any form of "religious" requirements (not sure if there ever would be in Ireland, come to that).

I'd actually gone past the summary to the breakdown, so I'd missed that we get lumped in under "Other Religion" there - I presume that one is based on the box you ticked. From the summary stats, it certainly makes sense to put "No Religion", but that misses out an appearance in the breakdown as an atheist. Oh, well. Like I said, I'd prefer to write down that I'm an atheist, and there definitely isn't anywhere else on the form to put it.

Besides, if we can muster over 2000, I think they may have to put in a box for us. Of course, we can then complain about that, because atheism still isn't a religion...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dades

Wicknight wrote:

Big "atheists-immoral-going-straight-to-hell" group hug!

Make it a quick one - I've got babies to eat and a town that wants pillaging.

Scofflaw

This is why we have all them swords.

cordially,
Scofflaw

robindch

> This is why we have all them swords.

Did I mention that I've one too?

Asiaprod

The Atheist wrote:

If Asiaprod was in the country and wrote "Buddhist" (not a religion strictly either, I'm informed) in the box, would people be so indignant?

Buddhist would most certainly have been written down
And you are well informed, it is not a religion, no God(s), never:)

<Swords, you want swords, I live in the land of 'The Sword'>