Census

bobbi

Ok hope this is the right place and this might seem like a stupid question although i was baptised roman catholic i'm an atheist i put down no religon on the census is this correct?:)

KTRIC

I did. I don't care for organised religion.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Put down Jedi Knight. Or Gothic Satanist!

Zombrex

bobbi wrote:

Ok hope this is the right place and this might seem like a stupid question although i was baptised roman catholic i'm an atheist i put down no religon on the census is this correct?:)

Perfectly correct. If you don't follow a religion then don't put one down. The idea that you are and always will be the religion you were baptised is rather silly construct of the religion itself in my opinion.

MrJoeSoap

Ah feck. Forgot to tell the parents I no longer subscribe to their "God". Ah well, I'm a Catholic for another 4/5 years so!

seamus

bobbi wrote:

Ok hope this is the right place and this might seem like a stupid question although i was baptised roman catholic i'm an atheist i put down no religon on the census is this correct?:)

Perfectly. Atheism is not a religion.

Sangre

Changed mine as parents had put down Catholic. Mom kept trying to tell me I was bapitised so I was Catholic still. Pointed out would I still be Catholic if I convert to Judaism. Obviously not so I'm obviously not still a Catholic.

Then my mom started calling me selfish be cause I wouldn't bapitise my kids. Apperantely my cousins had terrible trouble trying to find a school because they had no denomination....Just one more reason to leave Ireland I guess.

Karoma

Sangre wrote:

Changed mine as parents had put down Catholic. Mom kept trying to tell me I was bapitised so I was Catholic still. Pointed out would I still be Catholic if I convert to Judaism. Obviously not so I'm obviously not still a Catholic.

I went through that too (Predictably) - I was insisted on 'No Religion'...I checked later, 'Roman Catholic' was ticked. :mad:

MrJoeSoap

Sangre wrote:

Changed mine as parents had put down Catholic. Mom kept trying to tell me I was bapitised so I was Catholic still. Pointed out would I still be Catholic if I convert to Judaism. Obviously not so I'm obviously not still a Catholic.

Then my mom started calling me selfish be cause I wouldn't bapitise my kids. Apperantely my cousins had terrible trouble trying to find a school because they had no denomination....Just one more reason to leave Ireland I guess.

Thats terrible. Imagine a country where its harder to find an education because you don't belong to a certain religion... oh wait... we live there.

Too right it's one more reason to leave!

Scofflaw

seamus wrote:

Perfectly. Atheism is not a religion.

On the other hand, it's a religious position, and if you don't write it in, you don't get counted. I tick other, and write Atheist.


cordially,
Scofflaw

Banphrionsa

These census categories seem to be so limited. For example, agnostic is not a religion, but it does not mean that agnostics are not free to adopt what some may think or otherwise believe to be religious. And, of course, there are several definitions one can refer to for the term agnostic, and they do not all agree. I prefer "free thinker," but I am sure there are many out there in cyberland who would disagree with this definition, and that's my point in bringing this up in the first place; i.e., the census categories, religious or otherwise, are not mutually exclusive, thereby rendering categorisation misleading.

And if you really want to throw fat into the fire, I have some kin who would never check "Roman Catholic" but rather consider themselves "Irish Catholic," which could give rise to yet another argument on a different thread as to what the similarities and differences are.:rolleyes:

Simi

The religion section is complete bull. Every god fearing mother in the country is going to tick Roman Catholic for their non-religious kids and husbands, giving the impression 90% of the country are still devote evangelical morons, meaning the government will be perfectly happy to leave schools in the hands of the church, so they don't have to fork out the full amount for school facilities and staff.

Dades

Scofflaw wrote:

On the other hand, it's a religious position, and if you don't write it in, you don't get counted. I tick other, and write Atheist.

That's what I did. Writing "atheist" in the other religion box doesn't make it a religion, just assists in the "no religion" breakdown, which is too general for those with an interest.

Simi wrote:

The religion section is complete bull. Every god fearing mother in the country is going to tick Roman Catholic for their non-religious kids and husbands, giving the impression 90% of the country are still devote evangelical morons, meaning the government will be perfectly happy to leave schools in the hands of the church, so they don't have to fork out the full amount for school facilities and staff.

Despite the fact that being RC does not make people "evangelical morons" (it makes them RC), it is true that the census is skewed by parents ticking boxes for their offspring. A breakdown in age of each catagory result, or even between who was living with parents and who filled in their own form would be interesting.

lostexpectation

went to check the form and my Dad put me in as Roman Catholic Aaargh, I actually thought he knew where I was at. I changed it no religion.

Dades

lostexpectation wrote:

went to check the form and my Dad put me in as Roman Catholic Aaargh, I actualyl thought he knew where I was at.

Parents should be more realistic.

It's like husbands putting their wife's occupation down as "supermodel"...
Stating it in the census won't make it so.

Fallen Seraph

This is quite odd... I also had trouble in getting my parents to put down no religion for me.. It really baffles me... Do they think that having it down on the census makes it official in God's books..? I didn't realise so many people could run into this problem...

seamus

Fallen Seraph wrote:

This is quite odd... I also had trouble in getting my parents to put down no religion for me.. It really baffles me... Do they think that having it down on the census makes it official in God's books..? I didn't realise so many people could run into this problem...

Irish guilt again. Much like dieting, so long as they tell everyone else that they're doing it, they don't feel so bad about not doing it.

Crucifix

I put down no religion. I was tempted to put Jedi, but I decided no religion probably needed everyone it could get.

the real ramon

I never had any problem with the whole parents insisting on putting down RC for me. My mum always said she'd wished since she was a kid that she could've chosen her own religion and passed that attitude on to us three kids of hers. She was far in advance of Irish society for someone born in the a**e end of nowhere during 'the emergency'.

Since I was a teenager I was always allowed fill out my own section, all of us were. I guess I was lucky:)

Dave!

Another Roman Catholic here...

This is ridiculous, can't wait to see the results of it... 90% RC (1% practicing)

Stephen

Same thing happened here. Parents put me down as RC, and apparently I can speak Irish now as well. Their logic being that I went to school here, how could I *not* know Irish?!? -- They think being able to string a cupla focail together is fluency.

The tippex was quickly whipped out there
Changed the religion section to "no religion".

superfly

Ikky Poo2 wrote:

Put down Jedi Knight. Or Gothic Satanist!

i put Jedi

MidnightQueen

Another stupid census question: "How many people in your family were born alive?" Haha! What has that got to do with the population in Ireland? Do the people dead really matter??

Orion

because the people born alive are not dead and need to be counted perhaps?

Orion

Scofflaw wrote:

On the other hand, it's a religious position, and if you don't write it in, you don't get counted. I tick other, and write Atheist.
cordially,
Scofflaw

It's quite the opposite. Atheism is the absence of religion and denial of the existence of a super-being. No Religion sums up atheism perfectly.

Zombrex

Macros42 wrote:

It's quite the opposite. Atheism is the absence of religion and denial of the existence of a super-being. No Religion sums up atheism perfectly.

Yeah I agree, I think "No Religion" is the one to go for here if you are an atheist.

I know people want "atheist" actually counted in the statistics, but what is "Atheists" if not "No religion"

It only confuses matters to put down "My religion is atheist", especially after all the who-har we have these days trying to explain why atheism isn't a belief system or religion in of itself.

When people ask me what religion I am I say "I don't follow a religion". If they then, rather stupidly, ask "But you do believe in God right?", then I say no, I'm an atheist (someone who doesn't believe in gods).

If you don't follow a religion put down you don't follow a religion. Don't put down "My religion is the one that doesn't follow a religion"

Yossie

Wicknight wrote:

I know people want "atheist" actually counted in the statistics

That's exactly what I want.

I stuck down "No religion" with a heavy heart. The problem is with the question. Rather than it being "What is your religion?" It should read something more like "What are your religious beliefs?" which, although not perfect, I could justify answering with "atheist".

Zombrex

Yossie wrote:

That's exactly what I want.

I stuck down "No religion" with a heavy heart. The problem is with the question. Rather than it being "What is your religion?" It should read something more like "What are your religious beliefs?" which, although not perfect, I could justify answering with "atheist".

What do you all actually mean by "not counted" .. not really following that

Surely in the statistics there will be a "No religion" section? Or is that just completely ignored and you have to add up all the religions and subtract it from the total number to get those that ticked "No religion"?

Yossie

Wicknight wrote:

What do you all actually mean by "not counted" .. not really following that

Is that for me...?
If it is, I think you are the victim of my terrible lack of articulation. AFAIK they are all counted including "No religion".

I would just like to have myself recognised as an atheist (and find out how many other there are).

Dades

Yossie wrote:

I would just like to have myself recognised as an atheist (and find out how many other there are).

That's the thing. "No religion" is still vague. Putting down atheist/agnostic or whatever in the box along with No Religion is harmless IMO. If you look at the way the results are listed in the last census, it's just that little bit more specific.

Zombrex

TBH I don't see that there is such a difference that it would matter

I find it unlikely that a lot of people would believe in a god but put down "No Religion"

And in fairness to the census writers, the question is do you follow a religion, not if you believe in god or not. The government doesn't really care if you do or don't not believe in God, but what religion you follow is important

TBH I don't see it being a big deal.

seamus

The Government doesn't really care if you're Atheist. If they see a reduced number of RC's being mentioned in the census, then there's less supports and grants to the RC church, and less desire to have religious schools, etc. By the same token, if they see there are more Muslims, then they know that they will need more services for Muslims.

If they see more Atheists, then it makes bog all difference. As far as planning and the government go, Atheist and "No religion" are equivalent.

Zillah

Yes but if you let your family put you down as RC, that artificially inflates the numbers of RC in total. So no, the numbers gained by atheists don't matter, but the numbers lost by everything else do.

lostexpectation

seamus wrote:

If they see more Atheists, then it makes bog all difference. As far as planning and the government go, Atheist and "No religion" are equivalent.

yes it does, the more athiest or non-religious equals less RCs (excluding migrant), which means more non/muti-domenatianal schools which means less power for the Bishops to have a stranglehold on our education system which means the gov will get off their buts and take control of it away from those dinosaurs and ....

seamus

Yes, missing the point, I probably didn't make that clear enough. Putting down Atheist makes bog all difference to putting down "No Religion".

Dades

seamus wrote:

Yes, missing the point, I probably didn't make that clear enough. Putting down Atheist makes bog all difference to putting down "No Religion".

The point was not really addressed. I think I can say that nobody here believes putting down "atheist" with/instead of "no religion" makes any difference in government policy. We all know they'll be counted together. The only plus is that it might make more interesting reading for us here in this forum when the results are published.

On the other hand we all recognise that parents ticking RC for non-religious children is the real culprit in skewing the results.

lostexpectation

I do think no religion sorta says... never had religion in the first place, while athiest means ( I was born into a religion I now reject the whole concept)

I presume most agnostics wrote in the other box agnostic.

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandsex2002.htm

Agnostic 1,028
Atheist 500
No religion 138,264
Not stated 79,094

hmmm?

It would be interesting to see religion by family group (or even more complicated family generational line)

See how many families with no religion out there...

samb

Èverybody who does not follow a religion (i.e Athiests, Agnostics) should IMO have classed themselves as No Religion. I can't see why people want to confuse the results by specifing the exact word they use to describe their lack of religous belief.
a breakdown into athiest/agnostic would be interesting but so would a breakdown of RCs into those that actually believe in transubstansiation, contraception, divorce etc.

samb

lostexpectation wrote:

I do think no religion sorta says... never had religion in the first place, while athiest means ( I was born into a religion I now reject the whole concept)

I presume most agnostics wrote in the other box agnostic.

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/popnclassbyreligionandsex2002.htm

Agnostic 1,028
Atheist 500
No religion 138,264
Not stated 79,094

.

Why do you presume most agnostics wrote in the other box? Do you think that thier were only 1,028 agnostics in 2002? Most sensible athiests and agnostics read the question and concluded that they follow 'No Religion'. There were 1,028 Agnostics and 500 athiests who stupidly concluded that the religion that they follow is atheism or agnostism.

Scofflaw

samb wrote:

Why do you presume most agnostics wrote in the other box? Do you think that thier were only 1,028 agnostics in 2002? Most sensible athiests and agnostics read the question and concluded that they follow 'No Religion'. There were 1,028 Agnostics and 500 athiests who stupidly concluded that the religion that they follow is atheism or agnostism.

Well, thanks a bunch. Personally, I write in Atheist because that's what I am and I'm interested to see it appear on the statistics instead of that wishy-washy "No Religion" which covers agnostics, atheists, undecided, people who might be Catholic but don't practice enough to be good at it, and people who don't give a toss about the whole question.

As far as anyone can tell from the Census, there are only 500 atheists in Ireland - those of "No Religion" literally cannot be counted as such, because there's no way of telling what they meant, whereas it's entirely clear what people who write "Atheist" mean (assuming they spell it correctly, that is).

Who are you to decide that people who didn't do what you did are "stupidly concluding" something they're absolutely not? Are you God, perhaps?

Yes, I would like an apology, although I'll be surprised to get one.

insulted,
Scofflaw

seamus

Scofflaw wrote:

As far as anyone can tell from the Census, there are only 500 atheists in Ireland - those of "No Religion" literally cannot be counted as such, because there's no way of telling what they meant, whereas it's entirely clear what people who write "Atheist" mean (assuming they spell it correctly, that is).

You see, here's the thing: Why does it matter? You'll look at the statistics and say "Oh look, there are 250,000 Atheists in Ireland. Great. Hey, what's on TV?". It's not like you're all gathering in halls, discussing your proofs of God's non-existence, and damning all of those who believe otherwise. Why do you need to stand up and be counted? The very point of atheism is that you don't subscribe to the entire religion thing, and thus the "need to be counted" is moot. The opposite of religious fervour isn't religious hatred. It's religious apathy.

samb

Sorry.....but I can't apologise:p . You have still filled in the form incorrectly because atheism is not a religion.
I would like to see a more complete picture or breakdown also but as it is, the No Religion box is the box for atheists et al.
On the christianity forum a while back somebody said there were only 500 atheists in Ireland-this misinformation stems from your mistake. Atheism is not a religion, so why would you say it is by writing it in under the other religion section.

pH

The opposite of religious fervour isn't religious hatred. It's religious apathy.

This state of ours still enforces the majority's religious wishes on those who do not subscribe. Some issues (like what we can and cannot do on Sunday) are purely religious positions.

The census builds a picture for the government of the makeup and needs of the population. The bigger the counted 'non-religous' constituency the sooner we'll see the state leaving religion out of things like education, social services and health care.

The thing is - it matters a great deal, I can assure you that as an atheist, I am not the least bit apathetic towards religion.

ap·a·thy
Function: noun
1 : lack of feeling or emotion : IMPASSIVENESS
2 : lack of interest or concern : INDIFFERENCE

Census 2006

13 What is your religion? (one box only)

1. Roman Catholic
2. Church of Ireland
3. Presbyterian
4. Methodist
5. Islam
6. Other, write in your RELIGION
7. No Religion

Given that atheism and agnosticism are not religions (read the question) the correct answer is 7 - No religion. Anything else is a little silly.

Scofflaw

samb wrote:

Sorry.....but I can't apologise:p . You have still filled in the form incorrectly because atheism is not a religion.
I would like to see a more complete picture or breakdown also but as it is, the No Religion box is the box for atheists et al.
On the christianity forum a while back somebody said there were only 500 atheists in Ireland-this misinformation stems from your mistake. Atheism is not a religion, so why would you say it is by writing it in under the other religion section.

Well, you'd be correct if either (a) I thought that Atheism was a religion (obviously not!) or (b) I thought that writing it on the census form somehow affected my atheism (by, what, making it a religion?).

I don't think either of those things. I wish atheists to be counted on the census - the only place to do so is in the Religion question. I'm interested in the practical result, which is a headcount of atheists, not some silly "point" about atheism not being a religion. You and pH simply will not show as atheists on the statistics, because you have decided that the "correct" thing is not to be counted. Therefore, if someone wants to cite the number of atheists in Ireland in 2002, they can only give the figure of 500, because it's the only available figure for people who describe themselves as atheists.

I don't have a problem with your choice as opposed to mine, although it means we don't have an accurate count of atheists. Your assumption that I (and others) made some kind of stupid mistake is what is offensive.

regards,
Scofflaw

lostexpectation

look at the numbers

No religion 138,264
Not stated 79,094

thats 221,500 people who are either private minded or non-religious

*clutches straws*

Zombrex

Scofflaw wrote:

I wish atheists to be counted on the census - the only place to do so is in the Religion question.

But it still isn't properly counted.

That would only work if every atheist did what you did and ticked religion and wrote Atheist. I think that thread has shown that a lot of atheists would fill the form out correctly and tick "No Religion"

So any "Atheist" column in the final statistics is going to largely meaningless and also contain a lot less atheists than there actually are.

This method, along with being an incorrect way to fill out the form, also gives a result as meaningless to the real population of atheists as simply ticking "No Religion"

Also I agree with Samb, by doing it this way you kinda validate the method to the get the result, which then allows people to say ridiculous things like there are only 500 atheists in Ireland which is nonsense.

Scofflaw

...except that if enought people do it, they have to put in Atheist as a choice, and then even you can tick with a clear conscience.


Ah well, it's not really worth arguing about - you think I'm silly, I think you're silly, we'll let it rest there. I shouldn't have bothered to get offended.


cordially,
Scofflaw

pH

But at the heart of it the question is very precise, it's not about belief or disbelief in a God but about membership of a relgion.

My other half had no problem answering 'No' when I ask her if she believes in god, yet still ticks 'Roman Catholic' on the census. I guess at some level she feels she's still a 'member'.

No one would want 'atheism' listed as a religion(except maybe some very right wing Christians) as that would lead us down another path

Scofflaw

pH wrote:

But at the heart of it the question is very precise, it's not about belief or disbelief in a God but about membership of a relgion.

No one would want 'atheism' listed as a religion(except maybe some very right wing Christians) as that would lead us down another path

Why would we not? I think you might be mistaking the census form for real life - it is a form for recording statistical information, and there's certainly no other sensible place on the form to record that you're an atheist. The question should ideally read "Religious Position" rather than "Religion", but that's a minor quibble - I'm not particularly worried about how the CSO phrase the question, as long as they record the information I want recorded. I don't allow the church to dictate to me, why should I let the CSO do it?

It's true that effectively the question is too blunt - that your other half would tick RC while disbelieving in God means she's effectively answering the question based on her "religious culture" - in which case Atheist is still correct for me to write in, since I'm a third-generation atheist!

Of course, this might relate to the fact that I am a very long way past the age of doing exams...there is no such thing as a "correct answer" to a lot of questions on the census.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

Scofflaw wrote:

Why would we not? I think you might be mistaking the census form for real life - it is a form for recording statistical information, and there's certainly no other sensible place on the form to record that you're an atheist.

Not really.

The government isn't asking about your actual personal beliefs. For a start they don't care. They are asking what religion do you follow. If you don't follow a religion then you don't follow a religion. If you don't follow a religion because you hate God and want to spit on him, or you don't follow a religion because you don't believe in him in the first place is rather irrelevent.

It would be nice to have something to record the general atheist population in Ireland, but the census isn't really the place to do it because the government is not interested in your beliefs only in the religious organisations you claim to follow. They are trying to get membership of these organisations, not if you actually believe in any of it. And an atheist doesn't follow any religious organisation.

To me, its kinda missing the point of the question to put down "Yes I follow a religion and that religion is Atheism"

Dades

I don't understand why people are getting so bee-in-their bonnet about people filling in atheist on the census form. If Asiaprod was in the country and wrote "Buddhist" (not a religion strictly either, I'm informed) in the box, would people be so indignant?

As atheists/agnostics the form is effectively meaningless anyway, given the apparant inaccuracy of the RC return. People who write in atheist/agnostic, will still be counted as "no religion" when the calculations are made. Why become the Form Police just because some people want to actually record their feelings in a form that will be of negligible use anyway?