The Strange World of CIE-Speak

paulm17781

I think bus privitisation is being held up by unions. It may not progress public transport but it wont hurt it in its present form.

If you're who I think you are I've had this debate with you before and it is like banging my head off a brick wall. Come back here and see how bad the unions in CIE are. The attitude of their customer service is enough to show how bad they are. If I spoke to my clients like that I would very quickly be out of the job. It wouldn't be the government firing me either.

There was a threat of a strike a while back when a ticket inspector was fired. In the end he was rehired. "Ya can't fior me, I work fer CIE" was pretty much the logic. He hadn't been doing his job but why should he? He works for CIE. :rolleyes:

murphaph

paulm17781 wrote:

There was a threat of a strike a while back when a ticket inspector was fired. In the end he was rehired. "Ya can't fior me, I work fer CIE" was pretty much the logic. He hadn't been doing his job but why should he? He works for CIE. :rolleyes:

Reminds me of that ticket checker in Cork fired for "ticketing irregularities"* and then all his workmates went out on unofficial action, the comoany threatened to fire them all for doing this and then the union weighed in and threatened official action because of the company's threat :rolleyes:

The ticket checker was given his job back in the end.

*make of that what you will. I know what I think he was up to but it's probably libellous so say it here so I won't.

paulm17781

Philip, I think that is the one I meant. I couldn't remember it properly. Cheers.

craigybagel

Wheres communism when you need it

BuffyBot

The attitude of their customer service is enough to show how bad they are. If I spoke to my clients like that I would very quickly be out of the job. It wouldn't be the government firing me either.

Because evidently, every single employee acts in that sort of manner...

paulm17781

BuffyBot wrote:

Because evidently, every single employee acts in that sort of manner...

No not all of them. Day to day I would say I encounter more rude bus drivers than pleasant ones. I always say hello and goodbye when I get on a bus. The most I normally get is a grunt. It cheers me up no end when I do get a friendly bus driver. This shouldn't be a rarity, it should be the norm. Luas Ddrivers have said hello to me without me even looking at them.

parsi

paulm17781 wrote:

No not all of them. Day to day I would say I encounter more rude bus drivers than pleasant ones. I always say hello and goodbye when I get on a bus. The most I normally get is a grunt. It cheers me up no end when I do get a friendly bus driver. This shouldn't be a rarity, it should be the norm. Luas Ddrivers have said hello to me without me even looking at them.

I got a bus in France last year and yer man never said hello to me. And he was private sector. Typical really.

I think customer service in this country is gone to pot anyway. Local Bus Eireann drivers are friendly enough down here (in fact when I was a daily bus user a few of them used drive on past the terminus if it was raining so that we'd all have a shorter walk to work) but overall there is a general air of people not giving a damn...

shltter

aliveandkicking wrote:

How about the new Cork trains which have not gone into service yet due to union issues.

Heres a couple of non rail ones

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0428/dublinbus.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1111/dublinbus.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0928/dublinbus.html

http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2005/11/10/story229583.asp

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1104141&issue_id=10267

This is exactly the kind of anti union bias I am talking about

Dont ask why IE management bought trains with a 4 year lead time but only start to negotiate new working arrangements when they actually are ready to run them


Dont ask why 10 years after the 48 hour maximum working week and after DB was give a derogation to allow them to prepare for a 48 hour week they did nothing except hope for a further derogation and when that did not appear tried to impose new working conditions. Which they then cancelled following the threat of industrial action and have gone back to the previous position of not discussing it at all.


The rest of the issues you raised were not union organised or backed but resulted from poor local management for example the driver being urinated on and then being badly treated by the company the issue of moving staff accross the city and then when you have them there going back on promises


None of them have anything to do with employees blocking progress or trying to make a quick buck from investment as has been alledged here.


It is far easier to follow the lazy tabloid media and blame trade Unions

shltter

Transport21 Fan wrote:

It's was really you all along who was the raving lunatic on this thread with your "ILDA were justified" manifestos and 1970's Arthur Scargill mentality.

You are the weakest link...bye, bye.

Yes I did support the ILDA because unlike you I actually went to the bother of speaking to Train drivers and finding out why they set up the ILDA.

The main issue for the ILDA was that they wanted a union that actually represented them and that was open and democratic in its nature which they felt the NBRU and Siptu was not.


It is ironic that you talk about killing off the CIE unions but when a group comes along that wants to do the same and end the cosy cartel between union officials and management/Government and set up a group that is open and democratic you berate them.

Perhaps if you took the time to find out the story behind the tabloid headline you might have a different perspective.

BuffyBot

No not all of them. Day to day I would say I encounter more rude bus drivers than pleasant ones. I always say hello and goodbye when I get on a bus

You poor thing. I've got on public and private buses in a couple of different countries - and guess what..I didn't get greeted personally and wished good luck as I left. If the drivers spent all day making small talk, the buses would never get anywhere.

That, to me, isn't rude - it's practical. Rude is not answering a direct question (like "where does this bus go?" "how much to x?" etc) - now that there is no excuse for. However, it is not confined to CIE, or even more prevalent in CIE than other transport providers.

For the most part I've had less trouble with CIE staff than other transport companies..

paulm17781

BuffyBot wrote:

You poor thing. I've got on public and private buses in a couple of different countries - and guess what..I didn't get greeted personally and wished good luck as I left. If the drivers spent all day making small talk, the buses would never get anywhere.

Paul: Hello, <fair amount> please.
Driver: Hello, thank you!

--leaving the bus--
Paul: Thanks
Driver: No problem

It's actually quite simple really and takes next to no time. I know the bus routes I use quite well. I can't think of a time in the last year when I have had to ask a fair or information and gotten a polite response.

It is simple customer service, to the people who pay their wages. The only non-CIE transport I have used in Ireland is Aircoach & Luas. Both have friendly helpful staff.

Here is what you should do. You should keep defending bad manners and ignorant staff, across all industries. The last thing you should do is expect people to be polite - even if you pay their wages. If you do this you can help ensure there is no progress on customer service across the industry you love to defend so much. Now run, on your quest to destroy manners. That way people won't expect them in future. :rolleyes:

aliveandkicking

shltter wrote:

This is exactly the kind of anti union bias I am talking about

Dont ask why IE management bought trains with a 4 year lead time but only start to negotiate new working arrangements when they actually are ready to run them

I agree management have to shoulder part of the blame for not negotiating earlier than they did, but I would imagine they thought it was such a small change in working practices that it could be sorted out in a few days.

Dont ask why 10 years after the 48 hour maximum working week and after DB was give a derogation to allow them to prepare for a 48 hour week they did nothing except hope for a further derogation and when that did not appear tried to impose new working conditions. Which they then cancelled following the threat of industrial action and have gone back to the previous position of not discussing it at all.

So Dublin Bus drivers threaten to go on strike because management attempts to implement European Union law. What do you want them to do? pay overtime rates for standard working hours? You know what you would be told in the private sector. Overtime is exactly that - extra time in work. it should not be considered as usual. The EU has put a limit on the amount of overtime that can be worked, hardly the fault of management but of course the unions throw the toys out of the pram and threaten to go on strike.

The rest of the issues you raised were not union organised or backed but resulted from poor local management for example the driver being urinated on and then being badly treated by the company the issue of moving staff accross the city and then when you have them there going back on promises

Do you think they would go take industrial action if they didnt have a union to back them up if the company took disciplinary action against them? Again that sort of sh**e is not tolerated in the private sector.

Being treated badly by the company = getting put on paid sick leave does it? Again it comes down to the drivers thinking overtime is part of their standard pay. A couple of years back I was working four nights overtime per week almost doubling my standard wages. One day i slipped down the stairs and sprained my ankle. I was out on sick leave for a week, for which i was paid my standard wage but I did lose my overtime for that week but I didnt stand outside my job protesting about it so why do CIE workers do?

None of them have anything to do with employees blocking progress or trying to make a quick buck from investment as has been alledged here.

Quote "Around 120 bus drivers are protesting over the addition of a private contractor on a school bus route, and as a result no city services or Expressway routes out of Galway city are running."

So going on strike over their employers trying to eliminate overcrowding on school buses is not blocking progress? Remember the tragic Meath school bus crash? - one of the safety concerns on the school bus fleet was that each child may not get a seat to themselves but might have to share. Suppose a few deaths of schoolchildren is a small price to pay as long as Deco et al keep those evil private bus operators off their patch eh?

BuffyBot

paulm17781 wrote:

Paul: Hello, <fair amount> please.
Driver: Hello, thank you!

--leaving the bus--
Paul: Thanks
Driver: No problem

multiplied by x amount of passengers, day in, day out...sure.

I know the bus routes I use quite well. I can't think of a time in the last year when I have had to ask a fair or information and gotten a polite response.

On the other hand, I can. In various parts of the country. Therefore it's a bit unfair to say that it's something which occurs across the board.

The only non-CIE transport I have used in Ireland is Aircoach & Luas. Both have friendly helpful staff.

Well actually, I had a reall bad experience with Aircoach. Therefore, they must all be rotten.

Here is what you should do. You should keep defending bad manners and ignorant staff, across all industries.

You may have missed the bit where I said there was no excuse for rudeness. I am disputing this notion that rudeness and bad customer service is rampant within CIE and that private/foreign operators are brimming with fantastically polite and helpful staff, when in my experience, that isn't always the case in either situation.

paulm17781

I'm bored of arguing with you now so I'm going to stop after this. Did you complain to aircoach about the driver? I bet they would actually do something about it.

I worked in an extremely busy shop in my late teens, busiest pertol station in the country infact. Would you believe, despite this, I actually managed to be polite and helpful to all customers? :eek: :rolleyes: The only reason I would be rude is if they were rude to me before I spoke, even then I would normally reply politely unless they really pushed it. There is no excuse for staff anywhere being rude or unkind unless they know they can get away with it. I present the CIE union model.

Your logic of "Since not all of them do it" is deeply flawed. There are too many ignorant members of CIE staff. IE and DB. Rudeness in jobs dealing with the public should be rare, not expected / accepted. Just because "not all are rude" that does not excuse the ones that are. As I said, I am generally shocked and pleased when I come across a really polite bus driver. This should not be the case.

I don't doubt that rudeness is rampant in private operators. However a private operator can warn and fire staff without the threat of bringing the country to it's knees. This is something that is nigh on impossible within CIE.

Please don't argue if the gist of it will be "So it must be across the board then?" as this is deeply flawed. With IE and DB it really does seem to be across the board. If you are one of these employees, instead of arguing with me, why not try to do something proactive about customer service in your company or would you be too embarrsed about what the lads would think?

Calina

paulm17781 wrote:

"So it must be across the board then?" as this is deeply flawed. With IE and DB it really does seem to be across the board.

Strictly speaking this is not my experience. As in, I don't find IE and DB staff to be universally rude and unhelpful. To be blunt about it, I find them far more helpful than the average retail assistant, but hey, we're not going to generalise, are we?

Incidentally, I have cause to take buses from the airport to the city centre on a regular basis. I choose Dublin Bus because 1) it's less expensive and 2) far more frequently on time. I specifically stopped taking aircoach because they didn't seem to work to any sort of a regular timetable - you just got on the bus and hoped for the best.

paulm17781

Calina wrote:

Strictly speaking this is not my experience. As in, I don't find IE and DB staff to be universally rude and unhelpful. To be blunt about it, I find them far more helpful than the average retail assistant, but hey, we're not going to generalise, are we?

I don't doubt that. Don't get me started on most shop assistants. The difference is they don't have a union that can bring the country to it's knees if one is fired.

Calina wrote:

Incidentally, I have cause to take buses from the airport to the city centre on a regular basis. I choose Dublin Bus because 1) it's less expensive and 2) far more frequently on time.

I'd agree with 1. I've only once taken Aircoach to the airport so I have no frame of reference on 2. Aircoach's real advantage is that it is comfortable.

Calina wrote:

I specifically stopped taking aircoach because they didn't seem to work to any sort of a regular timetable - you just got on the bus and hoped for the best.

Surely you see the irony in this or do you find DB to be reliable?

shltter

aliveandkicking wrote:

I agree management have to shoulder part of the blame for not negotiating earlier than they did, but I would imagine they thought it was such a small change in working practices that it could be sorted out in a few days.

Complete bull****

aliveandkicking wrote:

So Dublin Bus drivers threaten to go on strike because management attempts to implement European Union law. What do you want them to do? pay overtime rates for standard working hours? You know what you would be told in the private sector. Overtime is exactly that - extra time in work. it should not be considered as usual. The EU has put a limit on the amount of overtime that can be worked, hardly the fault of management but of course the unions throw the toys out of the pram and threaten to go on strike.

Dont bother with the facts just jump in with both feet


There are numerous ways the 48 hour week can be implemented for example the BE way is different to the way IE have done it

DB was given a derogation to allow them to prepare and negoiate change they did not bother instead they tried to force through something at the last minute.


Do you think they would go take industrial action if they didnt have a union to back them up if the company took disciplinary action against them? Again that sort of sh**e is not tolerated in the private sector. [/QUOTE]


The union did not back them up and disciplinary action was taken in numerous cases including threats of legal action to recoup lost earnings.

aliveandkicking wrote:

Being treated badly by the company = getting put on paid sick leave does it? Again it comes down to the drivers thinking overtime is part of their standard pay. A couple of years back I was working four nights overtime per week almost doubling my standard wages. One day i slipped down the stairs and sprained my ankle. I was out on sick leave for a week, for which i was paid my standard wage but I did lose my overtime for that week but I didnt stand outside my job protesting about it so why do CIE workers do?

Because the guy did not slip someone pissed on him the company sent him home because they do not want someone driving a large vehicle around the city who is not in the right frame of mind to do the job.
If someone is assualted it is completely different from an accident at work or an illness.
Why should that driver be out of pocket because some thugs decided to urinate into the cab and the local manager decided to treat the driver differently from normal practise in such cases

aliveandkicking wrote:

Quote "Around 120 bus drivers are protesting over the addition of a private contractor on a school bus route, and as a result no city services or Expressway routes out of Galway city are running."

So going on strike over their employers trying to eliminate overcrowding on school buses is not blocking progress? Remember the tragic Meath school bus crash? - one of the safety concerns on the school bus fleet was that each child may not get a seat to themselves but might have to share. Suppose a few deaths of schoolchildren is a small price to pay as long as Deco et al keep those evil private bus operators off their patch eh?

If there is a BE bus and driver available to do the job there is no need to bring outside operators.
Overcrowding can be eliminated by using BE buses and staff just as well as using private buses and driver it is not mutually exclusive.

murphaph

Paul's point is spot on. If ONE good driver can be polite and say hello/thank you/godbye to every passenger then why can't EVERY driver do it? It has NO impact on service levels unless buffybot you believe moving your hands and speaking at the same time is somehow impossible and must be performed indepndently of each other.

I had a pr!ck of a staff member in PC world recently so I rang his manager when I got home and he was most interested to hear of my experiences. I'm sure if that assistant was complained about a couple more times he'd be sacked. We shouldn't just accept poor service from anyone.

craigybagel

Unions aside ive always been happy with the staff at CIE. Obviously theres a few bad eggs but thats inevitable in a company of its size. For the most part the staff are friendly and polite and one of the few things about irish travel to enjoy.
Thats when theyre actually working of course.........

Victor

Mod warning: Relax folks

shltter

murphaph wrote:

I had a pr!ck of a staff member in PC world recently so I rang his manager when I got home and he was most interested to hear of my experiences. I'm sure if that assistant was complained about a couple more times he'd be sacked. We shouldn't just accept poor service from anyone.

Apart from the arguement that if you are dumb enough to go to PC world and look for an assistants help then you probably deserve everything you get.

Did it never occur to you that the guy could be having a bad day maybe he just found out his wife is borking his best mate or his child has terminal cancer why would you be so proud that you nearly or may have got someone sacked.

Jesus get a life.

I have met some ignorant ****ers in shops etc just say it to them I would not try and get the guy or girl sacked maybe the other 364 days of the year they are sound give them the benefit of the doubt.

I agree dont put up with bad service but dont run home and try and get the guy sacked either FFS

Calina

paulm17781 wrote:

Surely you see the irony in this or do you find DB to be reliable?

On their 747 and 748 routes, yes, I find them very reliable. They have a timetable, they run to it. My only crib with the 748 is I see no reason for it to stop at Busaras given that the 747 serves Busaras every 10 minutes. I am, however, very dependent on the 748 to connect to an intercity train and it has never let me down.

Aircoach claim to have a bus every 15 minutes. Unfortunately, I haven't worked out exactly what time they are supposed to leave the airport because it's different every single time, and as for airport bound, I've very often been waiting at the stop in Suffolk Street for well over 30 minutes. I'm sick of them and I won't use them any more.

murphaph

shltter wrote:

Apart from the arguement that if you are dumb enough to go to PC world and look for an assistants help then you probably deserve everything you get.

Did it never occur to you that the guy could be having a bad day maybe he just found out his wife is borking his best mate or his child has terminal cancer why would you be so proud that you nearly or may have got someone sacked.

Jesus get a life.

I have met some ignorant ****ers in shops etc just say it to them I would not try and get the guy or girl sacked maybe the other 364 days of the year they are sound give them the benefit of the doubt.

I agree dont put up with bad service but dont run home and try and get the guy sacked either FFS

I might have expected such a response from you. You don't like it when paying customers complain about receiving poor service? You'd last about 1 seconds in a customer driven economy like the US.

Anyway, the guy in PC world didn't help me. I'd selected a printer myself then picked up a cable but wasn't sure if it'd work. Then slimeball (irish) PC world bloke comes over and asks if he can help. I just said "will this cable work with this printer?". He barely glanced and saud "yeah, any USB cable will work with that". But I wasn't convinced as it was a mini-B cable and a friendly russian staffmember asked me was I ok. I said "yer man reckons this cable will work with this printer". Russian bloke throws his eyes to heaven and says "no, you need regular usb cable" and scuttles around and finds me the cheapest one and gets back to stocking the shelves. Meanwhile the slimeball slithers over beside me to the till and claims his fcukin commission off me for nothing! So I waited until I got home to make absolutely sure the cable wouldn't have worked before ringing up and complaining and making sure the friendly and helpful russian guy was acknowledged. But you think I should have done nothing and let the management think the slimeball waster was actually a helpful member of staff while the real worker was wasted on shelf stocking. Typical CIE attitude alright. :rolleyes:

As for being dumb enough to go to PC world, well, at least I can choose not to, unfortunately I have to use the 'service' provided by you and your company as you have a virtual monopoly.

parsi

aliveandkicking wrote:

So going on strike over their employers trying to eliminate overcrowding on school buses is not blocking progress? Remember the tragic Meath school bus crash? - one of the safety concerns on the school bus fleet was that each child may not get a seat to themselves but might have to share. Suppose a few deaths of schoolchildren is a small price to pay as long as Deco et al keep those evil private bus operators off their patch eh?

That's a bit on the low side isn't it ?

You should (for balance) add the fatal Offaly bus crash which involved a private sector vehicle which lost its rear axle. Wasn't there also a report that the vehicle was unlicensed ?

jd

murphaph wrote:

I might have expected such a response from you. You don't like it when paying customers complain about receiving poor service? You'd last about 1 seconds in a customer driven economy like the US.

.

To be fair, he said he'd complain to the guy himself.

Dub13

Calina wrote:

On their 747 and 748 routes, yes, I find them very reliable. They have a timetable, they run to it. My only crib with the 748 is I see no reason for it to stop at Busaras given that the 747 serves Busaras every 10 minutes. I am, however, very dependent on the 748 to connect to an intercity train and it has never let me down.

Since some time in March most 748 buses no longer serve Busaras.

shltter

murphaph wrote:

I might have expected such a response from you. You don't like it when paying customers complain about receiving poor service? You'd last about 1 seconds in a customer driven economy like the US.

Anyway, the guy in PC world didn't help me. I'd selected a printer myself then picked up a cable but wasn't sure if it'd work. Then slimeball (irish) PC world bloke comes over and asks if he can help. I just said "will this cable work with this printer?". He barely glanced and saud "yeah, any USB cable will work with that". But I wasn't convinced as it was a mini-B cable and a friendly russian staffmember asked me was I ok. I said "yer man reckons this cable will work with this printer". Russian bloke throws his eyes to heaven and says "no, you need regular usb cable" and scuttles around and finds me the cheapest one and gets back to stocking the shelves. Meanwhile the slimeball slithers over beside me to the till and claims his fcukin commission off me for nothing! So I waited until I got home to make absolutely sure the cable wouldn't have worked before ringing up and complaining and making sure the friendly and helpful russian guy was acknowledged. But you think I should have done nothing and let the management think the slimeball waster was actually a helpful member of staff while the real worker was wasted on shelf stocking. Typical CIE attitude alright. :rolleyes:

As for being dumb enough to go to PC world, well, at least I can choose not to, unfortunately I have to use the 'service' provided by you and your company as you have a virtual monopoly.

Oops you bought a USB cable in PC world as well LMAO


As I said I would have the balls to complain to the guy myself and not let him have the commission rather than sneak off home and try and get the guy sacked because he was not russian.

(Odd not that I go into PC world much but these guys are all introducing themselves and their Nationality. How does that go "Hi sir can I help you I am Russian Not Ukranian you can pay the guy on the cash register he is Pakistani)

Calina

Dub13 wrote:

Since some time in March most 748 buses no longer serve Busaras.

Thanks for that. I drove down to Cork the last time so no train, and as it happened, I had discovered that on a Friday, at least, the 5.05pm didn't serve Busaras. Most Heuston-Airport buses did serve Busaras and I never understood why it was necessary.

shltter

Calina wrote:

Thanks for that. I drove down to Cork the last time so no train, and as it happened, I had discovered that on a Friday, at least, the 5.05pm didn't serve Busaras. Most Heuston-Airport buses did serve Busaras and I never understood why it was necessary.

Yeah it has not made sense for a long time I think it goes back to before the 747 was bumped up to every 10 minutes and the links between Hueston and Connolly were not great before the Luas.

murphaph

shltter wrote:

Oops you bought a USB cable in PC world as well LMAO

Yeah, really hilarious. I'm glad you're easily amused. :rolleyes:

shltter wrote:

As I said I would have the balls to complain to the guy myself and not let him have the commission rather than sneak off home and try and get the guy sacked because he was not russian.

a) I wan't trying to get him sacked. I was trying to ensure his management team were aware of his poor customer service so as to improve it for future customers. Complaining to the guy himself is useless in these situations, like if you were ignorant to me on a bus and I complained to you, would you suddenly have a revelation and realise you'd been an ignorant ass and suddenly treat all your customers with respect and in a mannerly fashion, or would it not be better for me to log a complaint against you so that it may be added to any other complaints and when a set number of complaints are reached, you can be sent for counselling/anger management etc. before being dismissed if you kept it up?

b) I readily complain in to staff (but prefer their managers) in person but the packaging was very unclear as to what USB cables would be compatible, so short of opening the thing up in the shop to prove him wrong I decided to take the thing home and check I wasn't going to make an ass out of myself. Once satisfied that he had not "assisted" me and was only after his commission I called his manager. Still got a problem with that?

shltter wrote:

(Odd not that I go into PC world much but these guys are all introducing themselves and their Nationality. How does that go "Hi sir can I help you I am Russian Not Ukranian you can pay the guy on the cash register he is Pakistani)

I found out the dude was russian from his manager when I was on the phone to him

You seem to have a real issue with a customer complaining to an ignorant staff member's management team. That is highly indicative of something.