The Strange World of CIE-Speak

Transport21 Fan

Ray, you start off your post calling me a nutter and you then finish it by completely agreeing with me about the CIE unions. So welcome to the mental hospital.

Do you ever think that maybe we need more and more people to stand up and point out CIE for the abomination it is - in clear and honest language? I am not lying here or making stuff up. Neither are the majority of people on this thread who have agreed with me.

I am glad you have such good experiences with Dublin Bus, but as for the congestion affecting the buses in Dublin, a lot of this has to do with the CIE mentality as well. How many cross city bridges and routes are across Dublin City centre now, yet CIE operate Dublin Bus more or less for a how the city was in the 1940's it's still nearly all "An Lar via the Pillar". They are not the victims of this - quite the opposite in fact.

The recent "radical bus plan" for Dublin is really just common sense being applied. This is what is fundementally wrong with CIE at it's rotten core, they are a stangnant, uncreative, visionless, selfish monolith lost in the past who find change difficult or in many cases impossible. (well other than trashing railfreight yards in order to build apartments or salivating over Great Southern Hotels - then they can't move fast enough)

I can assure that Dublin Bus is but one element in CIE. There is a whole litany of sins across all it sectors. CIE are so utterly dysfunctional and so detactched from public transport integration and service, that in all actuallity they cannot actually be considered a public transport operator in any real sense. The best discription I ever heard for CIE was on the old P11 board when somebody said "all CIE do is pay people to drive buses and trains, not provide public transport" - QED.

I am a glad you think the CIE unions are a sociopathic, greedy vested interest and they should be destroyed, but you failed completely to read the posts I made were I want combination of privatisation, state subsidy and administration for running public transport in this country. I am not looking for all out privatisation, nobody is - we just want CIE folded and everything it and its malignante unions stands for, eradicated once and for all. But yes once again I state, the UK situation post privatisation is light years ahead of anything CIE has every or could ever provide this nation and its economy in terms of functional, integrated public transport.

I don't think anything I have posted on this thread is dogmatic. I can assure you I am very not a right wing economist. What I am is a person who makes no bones about the fact that CIE have been a disaster for public transport in Ireland and are on many levels getting worse. I make no apology for pointing out the obvious.

CIE management simply think in terms of running bus and rail services as little more than a nixer to building apartments, office blocks and buying up hotels. I can't see how pointing this out makes me a nut - but if it does, then so be it. The truth is the truth.

The problem is with CIE is that people are more than inclined in this country to recognise how utterly dysfunctional CIE is, but by the same token think a little fix and a bit of reform and a shuffeling of mangers now and again is the solution. I think after 60 years of this approach it would have sunk in by now that this is complete waste of time.

There is also this fear that somehow you are dancing on the grave of Jim Larkin if you have an issue with the behaviour of the CIE unions. This is a tactic these creeps use constantly as an insurance policy against their insatiable greed and skanger behaviour being pointed out for what it is.

We have had 60 years of trying to make CIE develop and function as a normal public transport company and it simply did not happen and is never going to happen. So there is only one solution now and that is a complete and utter removal of CIE and their unions from public transport operations and developments in this country.

There is no reform which will work - CIE has to go and more privatisation has to come it. The truth is the truth and you'll find almost nobody in this country outside the semi-state unions and CIE itself who beleives this 60 year old failure is worth saving and all the other possible alternatives 9including the UK model) are worse.

Red Alert

You really think a union should be destroyed? I'd like to see how you feel if you were ever out of a job or were being exploited in one. Do you similarly feel the same way about doctors, teachers, guard etc.? I don't think driving a bus/train/tram should be a holiday camp. I have to get regular X-rays for a serious knee injury - i certainly don't want the radiographer or doctor to be stressed or bullied to the point of being unfit to work - even more so when it's a bus/tram with over 80 people on board.

The privately-run Luas for the most part does its job, but what will the situation especially with maintainance be like in fifteen years time when the trams are worn out and their electronics outdated. Already a number of the disabled lifts are in a state of permanent disrepair and are suffering from vandalism. The CCTV ad campaign is quite good, but things should never have had to necessitate that. The RPA has given us bad value for money with the ticketing system and I think the operator Connex are starting to realise that - how are the RPA more efficient/better than CIE T21Fan? But it's all ok because we have full trams right?

T21Fan would you support a *radical* shake-up of CIE? There is no reason performance-related bonuses cannot be attached to senior and middle management figures. The unions would have to give in, but I think that if this went hand in hand with a guarntee of it remaining state run they'd tow the line.

A Dub in Glasgo

I wrote a long reply about BR privatisation and what I have experienced having joined BR as a graduate in 1993 and working through the lean years when everything stood still to allow privitisation to happen. My post never made it here as I deleted it by mistake.

Not every good news story since is as a result of privatisation and neither is every bad news story. A lot of the groundwork that helped was made in BR through their 'sectorisation' process and a lot of the innovation that still goes strong now was acheived under BR. BR probably got more out of the annual taxpayer spend than the plethora of privatised companies who are spending a huge amount of taxpayer money now.

I think the privitisation of BR has had an overall neutral

Transport21 Fan

"The RPA is working closely with Iarnród Éireann on the design of St Stephen's Green underground metro station" = Deciding were to install the pull down shutters so the DART Interconnector can be sealed off when the Luas and Metro are in operation and the DART is closed for business. (EG: New Years Eve, after 11:30PM, latest CIE union "stress" strike etc)

Transport21 Fan

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I think the privitisation of BR has had an overall neutral

I agree and that was a good post on the subject even if your original was deleted.

The bottom line remains however that post-privatised British public transpsort system would be a dream come true compared to what CIE continue to offer this country.

CIE and their unions would have us beleive that CIE is the best we are ever going to get and this is why we should keep if going no matter what.

This is the crux of "the pro-CIE or nothing" argument, and it is false. CIE has never provided integrated public transport and never will. It does not exsist for that purpose - to do so would be an afront to the cultrual psychology of its unions and management.

Doing the least possible work until the taxpayer funded pension matures, along with the occasional blackmailing of extra pay out of their "customers" is all that CIE employees care about. Providing quality public transport is simply not a CIE objective.

shltter

murphaph wrote:

You might laugh shltter but nobody who uses CIE is laughing with you, they are however laughing at the joke of the 'service' that is provided by your wonderful CIE. They've had 60 years to provide integrated transport and haven't. They spend too much time looking after their staff and not enough looking after their customers.

See all we get is this usual bull**** that CIE is looking after its staff instead of its customers and the only evidence that people can point to is 50 or 60 dart drivers.

Explain to me how does Dublin Bus look after bus drivers or mechanics or cleaners or clerical staff instead of passengers please point out to me the mass ammount of money that they spend on them.

When you have done that then you can do the same for Bus Eireann.

And then IE.

What we have is the usual lazy stereotype blame the workers blame the unions instead of blaming the people in charge.
What changes have Dublin Bus employees held up or blocked in the last 15 years or looked for more money for.

New Buses (Including Low floor disabled access, Articulated, and now Tri-axled buses)
New radio system
New ticketing equipment
New QBCs
New Garages
New routes
Extended Nitelinks


And all the changes associated with them
No pay claims
No threats

The problems in DB have not been caused by any lack of effort by the workers and their representatives who have bent over backwards to accommodate change.
What has caused the problems is that we have basically the same number of Buses we had before the Celtic tiger it was not enough then and it is not enough now.


If you think the private sector is the answer to our problems think again making public services a for profit venture will improve nothing and will cost the tax payers of this country more to bolster the profits of multinational transport companies like Stagecoach and Metroline.
It makes me laugh to see T21 sing the praises of Aircoach where is the service they operated from the IFSC to the Airport it went over night no warning no help to the passengers they left stranded no notices. CUstomer focused my arse Profit focused end of story.

Transport21 Fan

Red Alert wrote:

You really think a union should be destroyed?

When it is as culturally sociopathic, is little more than a mechanism to validate greed, spawns the likes of ILDA along with the resulting damage to rail transport, its behaviour is robbing taxpayers blind, and their "looking after No. 1" agenda is clearly contributing to the car culture in this country...then I reply with an emphatic "YES" - the CIE unions must be destroyed if public transport in to take its place at the forefront of the Irish economy.

Red Alert wrote:

I'd like to see how you feel if you were ever out of a job or were being exploited in one.

Hapened me many times. During the 1980's like so many people from the Ballymun Flats and not employed in the semi-states with a job for life regardless of the economic situation I had to emigrate. Unlike any CIE/semi-state employee I know what being really expoilted in the workplace is actually like. I know what losing your job at any moment is about because it has happened me. But I just moved on and looked for another job or started my own business. In the end, it's a much more rewarding way to live and you learn to stand on your own feet as an independent person. Many of us don't need some bearded twats in SIPTU to baby us from cradle to grave.

Red Alert wrote:

Do you similarly feel the same way about doctors, teachers, guard etc.?

The purpose of a hospital is to make people well, not provide union jobs for life no matter what. The purpose of a school is provide children with education and not provide teachers with jobs for life.

The rest of your post I apply the same response to your comments as above. The purpose of public transport is not to provide jobs for life to CIE bus and train drivers, nor build apartments on former railway sites after ralfreight has been declared suddenly "unviable in Ireland".

I am telling you this is not what public transport represents in any normal society. I swear to you that is not the reason why trains and buses exsist in the first place. They are funded by taxpayers and passengers to operate and integrate effeciently, safely and effectively. Please believe me - this is the truth. This is all society and economy asks of public transport and it is somthing that CIE simply has not, cannot, and is culturally unwilling to provide in the future.

This is a very, very important debate as Irish public transport development is at the crossroads now and its future success depends on were we go from here and I passionatly believe that the "keep CIE no matter what" agenda will only contribute more to the car culture in this country.

We need to apply clarity to what public transport in Ireland was in the past and how we are going to get the public transport we need going forward. I have done this and this thread is my honest feelings on the matter. CIE is problem. Always has been, always will be.

CIE and everything it stands for, has to die if public transport is Ireland is to ever become meaningful - simple as that. Sorry, but that's how I feel. Thanks RedAlert, for at least having a debate with me on my points. I respect you for that, even if we fundementally disagree.

shltter

Transport21 Fan wrote:

When it is as culturally sociopathic, is little more than a mechanism to validate greed, spawns the likes of ILDA along with the resulting damage to rail transport, its behaviour is robbing taxpayers blind, and their "looking after No. 1" agenda is clearly contributing to the car culture in this country...then I reply with an emphatic "YES" - the CIE unions must be destroyed if public transport in to take its place at the forefront of the Irish economy.

Except the reason why ILDA was formed was because the employees believed that the NBRU/Siptu were not acting in their interests and that a cosy cartel was operating between the management/Government/unions.
The fact that all three groups combined to oppose ILDA kind of lends weight to the theory.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Hapened me many times. During the 1980's like so many people from the Ballymun Flats and not employed in the semi-states with a job for life regardless of the economic situation I had to emigrate. Unlike any CIE/semi-state employee I know what being really expoilted in the workplace is actually like. I know what losing your job at any moment is about because it has happened me. But I just moved on and looked for another job or started my own business. In the end, it's a much more rewarding way to live and you learn to stand on your own feet as an independent person. Many of us don't need some bearded twats in SIPTU to baby us from cradle to grave.

Here we go again with this chip on your shoulder about ballymun guess what plenty of people in CIE grew up in ballymun as well and plenty of them have lost jobs and been made redundant.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The purpose of a hospital is to make people well, not provide union jobs for life no matter what. The purpose of a school is provide children with education and not provide teachers with jobs for life.

The rest of your post I apply the same response to your comments as above. The purpose of public transport is not to provide jobs for life to CIE bus and train drivers, nor build apartments on former railway sites after ralfreight has been declared suddenly "unviable in Ireland".

Nobody said it is to provide anyone with a job for life but you seem to have a problem with organised labour.

The purpose of a trade union is to act in its members best interest.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I am telling you this is not what public transport represents in any normal society. I swear to you that is not the reason why trains and buses exsist in the first place. They are funded by taxpayers and passengers to operate and integrate effeciently, safely and effectively. Please believe me - this is the truth. This is all society and economy asks of public transport and it is somthing that CIE simply has not, cannot, and is culturally unwilling to provide in the future.

This is a very, very important debate as Irish public transport development is at the crossroads now and its future success depends on were we go from here and I passionatly believe that the "keep CIE no matter what" agenda will only contribute more to the car culture in this country.

We need to apply clarity to what public transport in Ireland was in the past and how we are going to get the public transport we need going forward. I have done this and this thread is my honest feelings on the matter. CIE is problem. Always has been, always will be.

CIE and everything it stands for, has to die if public transport is Ireland is to ever become meaningful - simple as that. Sorry, but that's how I feel. Thanks RedAlert, for at least having a debate with me on my points. I respect you for that, even if we fundementally disagree.

CIE has to change it has to break away from the Dept of transport and Finance and the political interference that has hindered transport in this country. The problem is not CIE as such it is the political culture in this country that interferes in Semi State companies as if they were just a branch of the political party that the minister belongs to and whose only purpose is to aid their re election.
Look at the board of CIE and the party hacks that infest it and other semi states who know nothing about public transport and have less interest.

shltter

Transport21 Fan wrote:

shltter, how about some honest debate rather than playing the armchair socialist after you post people's entire post and add some pointless socratic comment at the end.

If you want to engage in debate dont rant like a lunatic and throw insults just for the sake of it.

• Prove to us all here that CIE is not an public transport joke and Ireland really has has a fantastic public transport system under their watch? That Irish taxpayers and commuters get fantastic public service from CIE considering the collosal sums of cash we put into that company.

It is improving years of under investment and no planning can not be turned around over night

Transport21 Fan wrote:

[*]Prove that the the CIE unions have the development of public transport as a prioity and not their own greed and self-protection at any cost even if it means making public transport as unworkable as possible in Ireland?

Take a look at my previous post re gards the changes in Dublin Bus over the last 10 to 15 years the same pretty much applies to BE

Transport21 Fan wrote:

[*]Tell us that the management of CIE is not obsessed with property development and purchasing hotels at the expense of public transport development?

Iam not a fan of CIE management and have no interest in defending them however I will say that CIE has used its property port folio to raise much needed funds to invest in public transport money that would otherwise not be available

Transport21 Fan wrote:

[*]Prove to us that there is coreleation between railfreight suddenly "not being able to work in Ireland" and CIE management showing property developer fat cats around railfrieght transport sites?

As per above post unfortunately CIE have been directed to raise money from its property port folio that means that areas that you and I would see as important like freight take a back seat to raising capital

Transport21 Fan wrote:

[*]Prove to us that the RPA/Connex and Luas do not run a better rail system than CIE rail product and Luas really is crap and the people who use it must have something wrong with them for not using Dublin Bus instead?

Obviously a rail based system is more reliable time wise than road based people will choose the option that is more likly to give them a gauranteed journey time as they do on the Dart corridor it is not an endorsement of the company running any particular system.
Where proper QBCs have been provided people have moved to them and used them in huge numbers.
People will obviously not sit on a bus if a Luas tram or Dart train can get them there quicker.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

[*]Prove to us that railfreight and passenger services have not massively grown since privatisation in the UK, and survey after survey of British commuters have said they do not want BR back as the new system is better and provides them far more public transport.

And the subsidy and investemnt has gone in if that money had been made available to BR then more services and improved services could have been achieved

Transport21 Fan wrote:

[*]Prove to us all that every new investment in the CIE rail network is not viewed as little more than an on-going series of disgusting and repugnant plosy for another big cash shakedown by the rail unions.

Based on what the Dart drivers where else is this shakedown

Transport21 Fan wrote:

You can't and you know it.

CIE is perhaps the worst public transport provider in the Western World and the people who defend them claiming their is no alternative have been brainwashed or mislead by the scaremongering from the Ministry of Paranioa, Xenophobia and Greed in Liberty Hall, or they work for CIE and this how public transport should be to them and the see nothing wrong whatsoever.

The problem for the CIE unions "oh look at the UK!!!" tactic is that more and more Irish people are finding out that alleged BR privatisation failure scare mongering is hypebole and union propaganda and that public transport is actually on the up and up in the UK, Denmark, Germany and the other growing numbers of countries who have dumped the union-protection racket nationalised railways and bus model and moved away from the 1970's.

The game is up. There are many public transport alternatives to CIE - get used to it.

No the arguement is if the Government is going to have to invest why not invest in the State Company why invest in private companies whose only interest is in the bottom line.

murphaph

Shltter you made some good points about reform in BAC and BE which I acknowledge however you never mentioned the complete basket case that is IE. The difference is obvious-it's relatively easy to introduce comoetition to bus companies, indeed BE faces competition more than any of the the three and not coincidentally is the most customer focused of the three (you an board a BE bus anywhere in Ireland and buy a ticket allowing multiple changes to reach your destination).

IE employees have a much more secure position as they own the rails, the bus companies don't own the roads.

IE employees blocked the introduction of private freight operations operating out of Dublin Port (container transfers), something which if it had taken off could have eliminated the need for the Port Tunnel altogether.

They wanted more money for driving longer trains.

They wanted (and got) more money for driving the DART one station more when the route was extended from Bray to Greystones.

DART drivers also blocked the recruitment of new drivers who hadn't 'served their time' on diesel locomotives even though the DART is the easiest driving job on the network.

Their unions pander to this nonsense and are happy to let johnny taxpayer pay for the greed. That's why I despise IE unions. The same fcukers who wanted more money to drive to Greystones will hold us all to ransom again with the interconnector (if it ever happens) and that's plain wrong.

CIE management are no better by the way, with the possible exception of Joe Meagher thay are all just sitting out their time waiting for their pensions-no vision and no ambition as one finds with a private operation.

In short, the management, staff and unions in IE are beyond a joke and need removing from running the railways that belong to us all.

Victor

Transport21 Fan wrote:

"Harcourt Street Line" = A vital railway artery through heavily populated south Dublin which as late as 1997 CIE were determined to run buses on instead of trains to the point were they lowered the formerly elevated route down to grade south of Renelagh in order to make a exit ramp for buses. Eventually the Irish government got sick of them messing about and got the RPA to finally relay tracks on the line. Whch they did with superb results.

Actually, no. It was the Luas project that removed the bridge abutments and embankments at Beechwood, with the intention having been to close the crossing. The round trip from one side to the other would have been "interesting".

paulm17781

shltter wrote:

The purpose of a trade union is to act in its members best interest.

This is true. Is it also true that the purpose of CIE is to provide public transport? In that case why do the IE unions strike whenever their is a change to working conditions despite it being their job?

Teachers don't strike if they get new chalk. Doctors don't strike if they get new tongue depressors. IE unions do threaten to strike if they get longer trains.

There is a big difference between protecting your members when necessary and holding the public (who pay your f*ing wages!) to ransom when opportunity knocks.

shltter

paulm17781 wrote:

This is true. Is it also true that the purpose of CIE is to provide public transport? In that case why do the IE unions strike whenever their is a change to working conditions despite it being their job?

Teachers don't strike if they get new chalk. Doctors don't strike if they get new tongue depressors. IE unions do threaten to strike if they get longer trains.

There is a big difference between protecting your members when necessary and holding the public (who pay your f*ing wages!) to ransom when opportunity knocks.

From your comments and murphah can i take it that when people here say CIE they really mean IE because all of your comments seem to be directed at IE. (Except T21 who just hates CIE and trade unions in general)

It seems that in particular your problem is with Dart drivers who account for less than 100 employees out of 10,000.
I think it is unfair to everyone else who is employed by CIE.

shltter

murphaph wrote:

Shltter you made some good points about reform in BAC and BE which I acknowledge however you never mentioned the complete basket case that is IE. The difference is obvious-it's relatively easy to introduce comoetition to bus companies, indeed BE faces competition more than any of the the three and not coincidentally is the most customer focused of the three (you an board a BE bus anywhere in Ireland and buy a ticket allowing multiple changes to reach your destination).

IE employees have a much more secure position as they own the rails, the bus companies don't own the roads.

IE employees blocked the introduction of private freight operations operating out of Dublin Port (container transfers), something which if it had taken off could have eliminated the need for the Port Tunnel altogether.

They wanted more money for driving longer trains.

They wanted (and got) more money for driving the DART one station more when the route was extended from Bray to Greystones.

DART drivers also blocked the recruitment of new drivers who hadn't 'served their time' on diesel locomotives even though the DART is the easiest driving job on the network.

Their unions pander to this nonsense and are happy to let johnny taxpayer pay for the greed. That's why I despise IE unions. The same fcukers who wanted more money to drive to Greystones will hold us all to ransom again with the interconnector (if it ever happens) and that's plain wrong.

CIE management are no better by the way, with the possible exception of Joe Meagher thay are all just sitting out their time waiting for their pensions-no vision and no ambition as one finds with a private operation.

In short, the management, staff and unions in IE are beyond a joke and need removing from running the railways that belong to us all.

All I ask is that if your problem is with IE or more particularly Dart drivers dont label all 10,000 CIE workers with the one brush.
It is unfair on people who have worked hard to implement and work with change in the companies that make up CIE and to improve public transport in this country.

And much as it pains me to defend CIE management Joe meagher is not the only person who is ready willing and able to do the job they have been appointed to.
Yes there are people sitting out their time as there is in private companies but in my experience those people are gradually being moved out and the people coming behind them are a different breed who are in general in the position on merit not political affiliation or GAA/Golf club etc but as my point earlier years of neglect can not be reversed over night.

paulm17781

shltter wrote:

From your comments and murphah can i take it that when people here say CIE they really mean IE because all of your comments seem to be directed at IE. (Except T21 who just hates CIE and trade unions in general)

It seems that in particular your problem is with Dart drivers who account for less than 100 employees out of 10,000.
I think it is unfair to everyone else who is employed by CIE.

I see.... I asked the point of CIE, I then referenced IE unions. Unless you mean the CIE that don't provide public transport? :rolleyes:

My comments are mainly based at IE. Saying that the way I have had some bus drivers speak to me (a fair paying passenger and tax payer) I wonder if some of them are just as bad.

Victor

paulm17781 wrote:

Unless you mean the CIE that don't provide public transport?

CIE are a holding company that manage funds, property and the pension fund. They do not provide public transport, the subsidiaries provide public transport.

dermo88

My opinion is that CIE and IE have been a political football from the day of their foundation in 1945. Currently, I no longer feel that the IE model is relevant to the requirements of the modern Irish economy.

Transport 21 hates IE Unions. I cannot blame him for that. We have to look at the bigger picture. Unions are out to protect the interests of their members. But the protection of Union members interests is justified when their is serious exploitation and abuse of workers rights taking place.

In this regard, CIE and IE are suffering for the sins of their private sector predecessors, the companies that built and ran the railway network from the beginning of the railways in 1834, through to independence in 1922, and from then to the Nationalisation of CIE in 1950.

In these companies, there was abuse of workers rights, terrible wages and condtions. There is simply no comparison between the sheer brutality of shovelling coal in the middle of winter on a steam engine, and the comfort of a DART cab or a modern locomotive or DMU.

There is no comparison to a signal man working 14 to 16 hours per day in the 1920's or 1930's for a pittance to the staff manning the stations today.

Privatisation is not a holy grail. Its not as if we see Traein Eireann listed on the ISEQ, and all of a sudden the sun will shine, the trains will run to time, and the employees will have big smiles. But the current system no longer delivers. The CIE and IE structure was good at managing decline, closure, and minimal investment. This was relevant to a rural third world economy where 50,000 people a year were taking the train for a one way trip. To the pier at Dun Laoghaire.

Now, we are at a position where growth and massive investment are the future. The Government realised that it had to put resources and invest.

The Irish public, and the Irish exchequer no longer have faith in CIE or IE to deliver this. This is why the RPA was created. This is why Connex have the LUAS franchise. This is why I predict that IE will not exist as we know it in 10 years.

The IE Unions will scare us and tell us that there will be mass closures of the rail network if it is privatised. On Track 2000 has taken place, and hundreds of millions of Euro have been invested in new track, new trains, and there will be more to come.

Its a lie. Prior to 1997, I would have believed that mass closures would take place. There are still likely to be two more railway closures in the next 5 to 10 years, and while there will be moaning, screaming, weeping and gnashing of teeth from North Tipperary and South Wexford, they will pass without the blinking of an eyelid.

The line between Rosslare Strand and Waterford will be the first to go. Its no longer relevant. Its too slow. It serves an underpopulated area. The Sugar Beet traffic that sustained it is gone.

The line between Limerick and Ballybrophy is definitely on the hit list.

But the rest of the network will thrive.

The Unions will be there, but they have to be given a carrot as opposed to the stick. At the moment, we are talking about too much stick. We are saying "sack them all", "they are useless".

They are if they continue behaving as they do now.

This is why private sector methods of renumeration are required. This is relevant to a modern economy. This is relevant to the kind of economy we have in Ireland today. It is not relevant to the pre 1995 Irish economy where there was genuine and justified fear for the rights of workers being thrown on a scrapheap with no hope of a future.

We should be asking.

How do we go about privatising Irish Rail?
How do we gain the trust of the employees in Irish Rail?
How do we get growth for the good of everyone?

Personally my trick would be use the two branch lines mentioned as an example. The shot across the bows would be their closure, and point out that any more nonsense, and there will be more.

There needs to be a complete overhaul of working practices to deliver a modern system.

At the moment, Irish Rail has congestion problems. They have traffic growth, and their management are running around like headless chickens wondering how they are going to cope. Because they have been accustomed to looking at a map and deciding where they can save 1 million here, and 2 million there by skimping on investment and renewal. Now they are looking at the map and wondering where the room is to take on another 100,000 passengers a day.

I don't believe we have that kind of expertise in Ireland. We have to look to Britain for the personnel and expertise needed to manage that growth.

Why?

Because historical operating practices on Irelands railways have followed British practice. 80 years after independence, Irish rail has much more in common with British railway systems than any other. Also, it has got private sector style management now, and any managers there have experience of railway management in the private sector.

But, we do not, under any circumstances purely replicate British privatisation. We have to look at other European models and arrive at our own homegrown solution.

This can deliver the goods, such as the Navan Rail link, the Interconnector, and the link to Dublin Airport, electrification of all Dublin suburban lines.

Before we privatise, do we let the nationalised Irish Rail manage these, and clearly indicate that on their completion, the system will go to private sector management.

Because privatisation too soon could lead to massive disruption and delay of investment. Too late, and the resources and benefits of privatisation will be wasted.

Otherwise we are seeing a situation where ticket prices will have to soar in order to try and reduce demand at peak times. Which is what happened in Britain under British Rail when they were overused on Network South East in the 1980's and 1990's.

Metrobest

dermo88 wrote:

The subsidy is higher, correct, and there are perfectly valid reasons for it.

Under state control, the directors of the railway company have to go "Cap in hand", every five, ten, or twenty years to get things done. The Minister for Transport asks the Minister for Finance for the money to get the job done. The Minister for Finance says "No, we cannot afford X, Y and Z, but you can have Z". The Minister for Transport then goes to CIE, and explains this.

Under private ownership with state regulation, things are much more transparent, and the investment is from a mix of sources. The state does pay, and in Britain, it ended up paying more, due to the backlog of maintainance that occured under British Rail as it attempted to stay within a GBP1 Billion per annum subsidy (That is from the last year of BR as a publicly owned company), and the aim was to get this down to GBP 800 Million by 1995/1996..

But the price was very high. There was a backlog of maintainance of between 600 and 800 million pounds sterling per annum for the last 20 years of British Rails existence as a nationalised industry. (This is in 1994 Pounds, so for todays present value, multiply by 1.4)

Which is only now being made up. And there has been a huge budget for this.

Its catching up with lost time.

However, the British structure was flawed. It suffered from that traditional British disease, excessive beaureacracy, too many departments. It was not vertically integrated, and was too fragmented. The complete opposite of BR, which was too monolithic.

Yes, it was flawed at first, but over time, like everything, it will evolve.

Also, is it a crime for a private company to make a profit. There should be rewards for performing well.

From an Irish perspective, we do not have to copy them. Merely splitting Irish Rail into three divisions will do the job.

1. Iarnrod (Infrastructure company)
2. Traein Eireann (Passenger company)
3. Freight Eireann (Freight company).

Dublin suburban and DART becomes a contract, and a seperate brand, so that all transport services in the Dublin area are under one brand.

If the management and workers of a newly restructured and privatised Iarnrod Eireann are given share options, incentives, bonuses, under a private structure, then there should be less need for the mad Maggie approach.

Irish society is sick to the back teeth of the likes of Tony Tobin on RTE moaning about workers rights. We know its bull****. Hes got a state sector job for life. He can blackmail by threatening a strike. Most of us in the real world do not have that liuxury. I would be the first one cheering at a Baton charge of the ILDA, and seeing the army drive the trains instead of Brendan Ogle.

The time has come to face down these clowns. Millions of Euro worth of brand new coaches from Spain are idle and depreciate at the rate of 100,000 Euro per week in sidings while they argue whether they should get a pay increase for working them. They know they are depreciating in value, and they have worked out the cost benefit analysis to them in salaries.

They want the difference.

If you don't see the flaw in SLIPthru vs CIE, I have just shown it. Its not socialism, its not caring for workers welfare. Its plain extortion, pure and simple.

Over in Britain today, we see a rather mixed bag in terms of quality and customer focus. My favourite train company there was Chiltern trains, who had an excellent service. My least favourite, was Central. But privatisation and the retendering process enabled constant review of quality, contracts, value for money. It essentially forced the industry to be customer focussed.

In Ireland, we still have Deco stuck in his DART cab scared of the cliff and tunnel to Greystones. Why you ask.

Cos he wants 10,000 Euro to go there. He knows if he does'nt go, an expensive asset is not being used.

And 10,000 Euro to 40 or 50 drivers is chump change compared to its cost in the first place, and they know that.

I have more respect for the likes of Mandate, who look after workers rights in industries which really needed it, such as Barmen and Shop workers, who genuinely needed protection from potentially abusive management and employers.

A marvellous post.

I would add to this that part privatisation has worked a treat in the Netherlands for the rail company, Nederlandse Spoorwegen (NS). Split into four sections - infrastructure, domestic, international and freight - each section was given agreed targets to meet. The targets included punctuality and customer satisfaction ratings.

A supervisory board, comprising rail users, business figures and household names was given the power to sack the NS board if it did not meet these targets.

The results were spectacular. Punctuality and customer service improved beyond recognition, and rail users have gave the company much higher satisfaction ratings.

Crucially, the new NS managed to reverse years of subsidies and losses, and posted a profit. The lessons for Ireland and Irish Rail and Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann are clear - when attached to a state life support machine, companies just cannot prosper.

Comparing the annual reports of NS and Irish Rail and you see the two companies operate in different worlds. One the real world, the other a dream world of subsidies, monopolies, hotels and questionable property deals.

One thing I found interesting the description of Lady Thatcher as "Mad Maggie" in threads above. The lady wasn't mad, she was shrewd in my opinion. She was a pragmatic politician with admirable qualities of strength and leadership: she steered Britain's ship through a rocky economic period. BR was privatised under Major's disastrous government, not Thatcher's.

As for privatisation, CIE needs to be disbanded as it just adds another seven layers of bureaucracy to the Irish transport system.

We need private operators tendering for operation of intercity rail routes. And we need it now.

Sooner or later, the EU will open up Europe's rail markets to competition. The days of state railway monopolies will be gone, and gone too will be the pervasive influence of trade unions over the lives of ordinary workers. I can't wait for day I can get on a train at Heuston with a Connex or NS sticker on the side. Because that's the day when I'll actually want to use and enjoy using Irish Rail.

paulm17781

Dermo88. Excellent post / point. Why can't I write like that?:D

Transport21 Fan

So there you go Shiltter, the people of Ireland have spoken and agreed with me regarding the CIE unions and that CIE must go (especially Irish Rail) if public transport in Ireland is to flourish and that more privatisation is badly required.

It's was really you all along who was the raving lunatic on this thread with your "ILDA were justified" manifestos and 1970's Arthur Scargill mentality.

You are the weakest link...bye, bye.

BuffyBot

I'd call that a radical interpretation of the text..

murphaph

ot really buffy, essentially everyone has agreed with T21F that the unions are the biggest obstacle to moving forward. They need tackling so they stop holding us all to ransom when a minor change is required.

SeanW

Agreed. It's flippin' ridiculous.

markf909

The IE mindset is firmly rooted in a mindset of holding the ordinary punters to ransom whenever there appears to be a hint of progress. I would love to see the unions power reduced within CIE.
Did the guards threaten to go on strike cause a whole new raft of penalty points were introduced? Or teachers when a new cirriculum introduced?

T21 consistently calls it correctly on this issue.

shltter

Transport21 Fan wrote:

So there you go Shiltter, the people of Ireland have spoken and agreed with me regarding the CIE unions and that CIE must go (especially Irish Rail) if public transport in Ireland is to flourish and that more privatisation is badly required.

It's was really you all along who was the raving lunatic on this thread with your "ILDA were justified" manifestos and 1970's Arthur Scargill mentality.

You are the weakest link...bye, bye.

Dont be a complete ass surely you know the difference between a a couple of people posting on a forum and the People of Ireland.

It is your complete lack of ability to debate without going for the simplistic "twats with beards" type insults that means I really can't take anything you say here seriously.

murphaph

shltter wrote:

Dont be a complete ass surely you know the difference between a a couple of people posting on a forum and the People of Ireland.

It is your complete lack of ability to debate without going for the simplistic "twats with beards" type insults that means I really can't take anything you say here seriously.

Could that be because it cuts too close to the bone? Come on shltter, you know the attitude the general public has towards CIE is generally quite poor and that's with good reason. We all travel, we all see that nationalised transport systems across Europe deliver one crucial aspect that CIE failed miserably for 60 years to provide-integration!!!! Even when CIE was monolithic you couldn't board a bus and buy a ticket that required another bus, nevermind a train to complete your journey. There are reasons for this and I know the staff aren't to blame on that front, the management and DoT have failed miserably too. The militant unions in IE however are a real throwback to the past and simply must be faced down and it is actually pretty spot on of T21F to describe the SIPTU heads as "beardy twats" as anytime I see em interviewed outside Liberty Hall, that's what they usually look like! They are 1970s in thought, deed and appearance and that's no good for us the public. We need flexibility as is expected of us all in our employments. We can't stand by and let rigid dogmatic unions hold us all to ransom.

shltter

murphaph wrote:

Could that be because it cuts too close to the bone? Come on shltter, you know the attitude the general public has towards CIE is generally quite poor and that's with good reason. We all travel, we all see that nationalised transport systems across Europe deliver one crucial aspect that CIE failed miserably for 60 years to provide-integration!!!! Even when CIE was monolithic you couldn't board a bus and buy a ticket that required another bus, nevermind a train to complete your journey. There are reasons for this and I know the staff aren't to blame on that front, the management and DoT have failed miserably too. The militant unions in IE however are a real throwback to the past and simply must be faced down and it is actually pretty spot on of T21F to describe the SIPTU heads as "beardy twats" as anytime I see em interviewed outside Liberty Hall, that's what they usually look like! They are 1970s in thought, deed and appearance and that's no good for us the public. We need flexibility as is expected of us all in our employments. We can't stand by and let rigid dogmatic unions hold us all to ransom.

Give examples other than the dart where the workers in CIE are holding up progress and even in the dart case they tried it on and were told to **** off and life went on.

The lack of progress is not down to the workers or the unions it is down to the Government and in some cases bad management.


I have seen someone here slag off Tony Tobin here saying that he had a job for life in CIE I am sure this is news to MR Tobin as to my knowledge he was never a CIE employee but don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.
Most of the disinformation about Trade Unions and their activities are just stuff people have picked up from the Tabloid and Indo media in this country which is opposed to organised labour people read it in the sun and therefore it must be true.

aliveandkicking

shltter wrote:

Give examples other than the dart

How about the new Cork trains which have not gone into service yet due to union issues.

Heres a couple of non rail ones

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0428/dublinbus.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1111/dublinbus.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0928/dublinbus.html

http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2005/11/10/story229583.asp

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1104141&issue_id=10267

murphaph

aliveandkicking wrote:

How about the new Cork trains which have not gone into service yet due to union issues.

Beat me to it AAK! It should be noted that that case is in the Labour Court right now! The CDE sets were supposed to enter service months ago.

Anyway, the management in IE are so scared of the unions that that's the real reason they won't attempt to run passenger trains through the Phoenix Park Tunnel to the brand new station at Sheriff St. Those poor suckers in Adamstown are being sold a lemon about quality rail based trasport. They'll continue to be dumped into Heuston, forced to squeeze onto already full Luases to reach the city centre while IE trains could simply run under the park to the IFSC, except for the unions would go bananas and look for piles of cash. I dread the interconnector 'negotiations'.

markf909

I dread the interconnector 'negotiations'.

Are you afraid of the dark?
You can bet Deco will need stress payments to overcome his fears come 2015