Metro North open days

antoinolachtnai

Did you see McDonald with Clarkson on Top Gear last week?

murphaph

You're reading too much into the piece metrobest. The RPA have told too many people that the hybrid east/central route is highly possible that it seems likely in fact. They always made it clear that hybrid routes composed of all three options were likely too.

The piece reveals nothing new really but it's ood to keep the interchange with the Maynooth line and Dublin Airport stop issues in the public eye so I'm happy enough with the piece.

I didn't read any real negativity towards metro in the piece, however I did send a copy of my submission to Frank and it was all about the two issues I mentioned above!

Roll on metro......

MarkoP11

Frank McDonald is one of the few people who understands this city given he has publish several books on the topic of the development, or more correctly put destruction of Dublin compared to the hacks from a certain other paper this is good well researched stuff, we have been promised a lot before its only right to be sceptical.

There is a cost estimate on the Metro which has been kept secret only the RPA and the government know what it is, rule one is don't ask the RPA what the cost is as they hide and get defensive when you start quoting figures, can't blame them, its only a matter of time before it will be possible to come up with a very precise figure. Its very upwards of the original 4.8 billion number, very upwards. Its simple as the budgets for other projects come out what you are left with no matter how crazy has to be the number

The RPA seem to be trying to avoid being blamed for any cost increases that come along, thus cannot be seen to support anything that will jack up the agreed price. What they say on record is very very different to what has been revealed to many of us, plenty of people have got the speech from Rory and his colleagues. There is an emerging route which is quite different to that quoted.

There is serious opposition in Ballymun it not a figment of someone imagination, at least 40 submissions opposed the elevated structure, yes it it normal practice elsewhere but 40 people is quite considerable. They all want metro but the elevated structure is a problem that has to be recognised

Rory got your thesis Philip

murphaph

MarkoP11 wrote:

Rory got your thesis Philip

So I hear Mark! It was a bit long alright T'was hand delivered to Parkgate St in fact :cool:

markf909

Looks like it is Tara Street for the interchange.

The graphic with the article showed a Tara exchange for every route except the Central Route

MarkoP11

murphaph wrote:

So I hear Mark! It was a bit long alright T'was hand delivered to Parkgate St in fact :cool:

I am being 100% serious, wasn't the longest one either, quite a lot of constructive well thought out stuff apparently

None of the three routes have a formal direct link to Tara Street, they get as far as Hawkins House and thats it, there is a plan though and its quite cool it not quite what people would expect though

A Dub in Glasgo

I made a written submission to the RPA outlining my objection to the elevated structure along Ballymun Road and through the centre of Ballymun and it is good that others did the same.

paulm17781

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I made a written submission to the RPA outlining my objection to the elevated structure along Ballymun Road and through the centre of Ballymun and it is good that others did the same.

Heaven forbid the city should change. :rolleyes:

antoinolachtnai

In my naivete I thought the reason that estimates were not being published was so as to avoid prejudicing the tendering process and putting the State at a disadvantage.

So what exactly are the RPA saying off-the-record?

MarkoP11

Off the record to the public not off off the record I can't go there

The preferred route is the red route to Drumcondra then sweeping across to the blue line before DCU. That gets a rail interchange at Drumcondra. Rail interchange at Glasnevin possible but not desirable from an engineering perspective. Everyone wants to go under the airport but there is convincing case to go above ground

The overriding issue is cost. I personally don't get this blind biding process, I know what the budget it to within a few hundred million I'm sure that bidders will work it out as well

antoinolachtnai

Well, you can work out the price to a few hundred million easily enough if you know the underground and overground distances. But basically it's very bad practice to reveal your budgeting assumptions before you go to tender, because the budget price can very easily be treated as a target price. (A few hundred million is small beer to the likes of you and me, but it is very imortant to the public purse.)

Is there any way to go through the airport without having to do a deep tunnel? What about where the surface car park is now? Alternatively can they not put it on the site of the new terminal (if indeed the new terminal has a site)?

And can someone explain to me why the idea of connecting the Dundrum Luas line to the Metro was dropped? Was it because it would remove some of the glory from that fantastic Luas interconnector that they're going to build next year?

MarkoP11

I'm not going to quote the budget current my guess is +/- 7.5% IE have made all the numbers available on the rail side, the Metro is different as its a DFBOM, design, finance, build, operate, maintain deal, so its not just capital costs a good old fashioned open auction does the gig. The RPA know, I know all the bidders know so its a pointless exercise

Metro south is still a possibility but the bottom leg of the orbital metro would be first in the queue

Metrobest

If you want an insight into Frank McDonald's thinking into luas, metro and RPA, just look at this selection of pieces he wrote in 2003 when the luas lines were being built...

The Luas 'fiasco' is soaring expenditure
Tue, Sep 02, 03
...There is no basis for Deputy Ryan's assertion that Luas is 'headed for a fiasco'," Mr Allen said. "This is a major infrastructure project which will bring considerable benefits to Dublin, but it has to be appreciated there has to be a certain amount of disruption and inconvenience to achieve that."

He also indicated that the nightmare will soon be over by reaffirming the RPA's Christmas deadline for completion of the major Luas construction works in the city centre and its determination that both lines will be operational by next summer

The former Taoiseach, Dr Garret FitzGerald - a long-time critic of Luas - suggested on RTÉ Radio yesterday the cost of completing the project should be €400 million to €450 million, allowing for construction inflation during the "Celtic Tiger" boom. He found the latest figure of €765 million quite inexplicable.

The Minister has cautioned against comparing the original "guesstimate" of £227 million with the out-turn now anticipated by the RPA. He said the only valid comparison was with the contract price - but we don't know what that price was, because the RPA has never revealed it on the grounds of "commercial sensitivity"...

...the RPA has yet to provide an adequate explanation for the massive cost overrun on Luas, which has turned it into the most expensive infrastructure project in the State's history. And this, in turn, has jeopardised the possibility of extending Luas - or even connecting up the two lines in the city centre, as originally planned.

Expensive, late and unlinked: Luas is off track
Tue, Apr 22, 03
In six years the cost of Luas has risen from €288 million to €675 million, but its value as a transport system has fallen, argues Frank McDonald, Environment Editor.

The massive cost over-run on Luas is attributed to changes in alignments, construction cost inflation, ordering more and longer trams and the high cost of property acquisition. The cost of diverting utilities from the trackbed has also been much more expensive than anticipated.

At least €30 million of the cost over-run is accounted for by the acquisition and demolition of the ramp at Connolly Station, which the RPA's chief executive, Mr Frank Allen, conceded last week was unnecessary in the context of extending the Tallaght Luas line through the Docklands area to the Point Depot.

However, the RPA's board decided in February of last year to go ahead with this plan, even though it was opposed by the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, which saw no logic in implementing it, and by Connex, the company that will run Luas, which warned that it would raise operational problems.

Iarnród Éireann also had reservations about the demolition of the ramp because of its implications for servicing Connolly Station, which could be particularly serious in the event of a fire. Bus Éireann, which used the ramp as an overflow bus park for Busáras, also objected to the scheme

.

Sandyford Luas line to open for passenger service in June
Sat, Dec 27, 03
...Further work will have to be carried out to re-surface streets affected by the €765 million project. Trams will then be subjected to three months of test-running on each line before passenger services finally begin

Brennan demands clampdown on EUR 50m Luas claim
Mon, Sep 01, 03
...In 1996, the Government said the Luas would be built for EUR 279 million and would be operational by 2001. Two years ago the cost had more than doubled to EUR 635 million and the start date had been put back to 2003.

Looking back now on all those issues, even Frank himself must regret what he wrote. The focus on the Connolly ramp which was entirely neccessary. The mistaken faith placed in the musings of Garrett the Good, who predicted luas doom. Comparisons with the original luas cost estimate made in 2006 when construction began a full seven years later.

Judging by yesterday's piece, I fear Frank McDonald will cover the metro developments in the same (foolish) tone he covered luas. Thinking back now to 2003, it's easy to see why the whole of Ireland was convinced luas was the most evil piece of infrastructure ever to invade Ireland.

That's because we were drip-fed a constant stream of negative stories about luas, luas construction, luas plans, the RPA, the transport minister...

And it's all happening again for the metro. When will we ever learn?

The man is biased.

Winters

MarkoP11 wrote:

I'm not going to quote the budget current my guess is +/- 7.5% IE have made all the numbers available on the rail side, the Metro is different as its a DFBOM, design, finance, build, operate, maintain deal, so its not just capital costs a good old fashioned open auction does the gig.

Its DBFM +O. Two seperate tenders. One for DBFM and the other for operate.

BendiBus

Metrobest wrote:

If you want an insight into Frank McDonald's thinking into luas, metro and RPA, just look at this selection of pieces he wrote in 2003 when the luas lines were being built...



.





Looking back now on all those issues, even Frank himself must regret what he wrote. The focus on the Connolly ramp which was entirely neccessary. The mistaken faith placed in the musings of Garrett the Good, who predicted luas doom. Comparisons with the original luas cost estimate made in 2006 when construction began a full seven years later.

Judging by yesterday's piece, I fear Frank McDonald will cover the metro developments in the same (foolish) tone he covered luas. Thinking back now to 2003, it's easy to see why the whole of Ireland was convinced luas was the most evil piece of infrastructure ever to invade Ireland.

That's because we were drip-fed a constant stream of negative stories about luas, luas construction, luas plans, the RPA, the transport minister...

And it's all happening again for the metro. When will we ever learn?

The man is biased.

I'm not reading these articles the same way as you. All I see is criticism of poor or unclear costings. Not of the Luas product or service.

Even the most worthy projects need to be subject to cost monitoring.

Metrobest

MarkoP11 wrote:

Off the record to the public not off off the record I can't go there
....

I'm not going to quote the budget current my guess is +/- 7.5% IE have made all the numbers available on the rail side, the Metro is different as its a DFBOM, design, finance, build, operate, maintain deal, so its not just capital costs a good old fashioned open auction does the gig. The RPA know, I know all the bidders know so its a pointless exercise

Metro south is still a possibility but the bottom leg of the orbital metro would be first in the queue

If it's "off the record" then why were you told? Doesn't make sense. You are the public, don't forget. I'm not sure we should invest too much credibility in your sources. Before T21 was announced, you're on record on this forum as saying the metro was "dead" and it was interconnector all the way.. And look what happened. The opposite!

IE haven't made any numbers available on the rail side, just vague estimates for this and that. Figures have been given for tunnel construction of eur1.2-1.4bn; these figures haven't been subjected to any rigourous analysis from the likes of you or Frank McDonald, yet you are happy to accept them without question. Why?

Surely you can see that if the metro is going to cost amount X (with it's 90 metre trains, relatively short tunnel length, cheap elevated and at-grade running, and best-practice cost-effective quick cut and cover construction method)...,

that the interconnector, with its tunnel from start to finish, right under complex city centre buildings away from street alignment, 12-carriage platforms built to accomodate double decker trains, and expensive construction method of mining stations from under the ground, overseen by a rail company which has no expertise in such a rail project, and a cost estimate compiled by an firm of consultants which have produced a number of wildly inaccurate cost estimates in the past is not realistically going to be built for EUR1.2bn, as Frank McDonald wrongly quotes in his piece above, or even EUR1.3 or 1.4bn...



The future's bright, the future's.... metro ;-)

strassenwolf

BrianD wrote:

Oddly there is no consultation event held for those south of the river apart from the city council offices.

That is strange, alright. This line may, in the future, head south of St. Stephen's Green. It would be nice if the plans for such a prominent project could be readily accessible to other areas of the city which may not be initially affected.