Metro North open days

mackerski

Metrobest wrote:

As for Brian D's assertion that the metro doesn't integrate with everything, that's just laughable. It connects with suburban trains and luas at Stephen's Green, suburban trains at Tara, luas at O'Connell Street, and practically every single bus route in dublin city. You know that Brian, don't you?

The Green: DART X 1. Very impotant connection. 10/10

Tara St. (which is Trinity really): Wouldn't be needed if interchange were provided at GJ, Is useless as an interchange for Northside DART users. 2/10

O'Connell St. (UPPER): You're having a laugh. There is nowhere you could place this stop that would be further away from the Luas while still being officially in O'Connell St. The Trinity stop is closer. That's not an interchange, it's a keep-fit campaign. 0/10

Botanic: "Now, I could have sworn we crossed a DART line round here somewhere..." 0/10

Bus routes: Who cares? You plan bus routes to connect with the less movable transport modes like rail. Doing it the other way round seems a bit silly.


Dermot

BrianD

Metrobest wrote:

I honesty believe an interchange with Tara Street is an essential part of the metro project, and I'm very concerned that Philip has said they are considering dropping the Trinity stop. I would be so annoyed if that happened! But judging by what's on the table, I don't see GJ being part of the picture.

No, you wouldn't would you. You have a very outdated and old fashioned view of how public transportation should be planned and operated. In fact, Dublin Bus would have been proud of you in the past. You are assuming that people want to go to where they have always been brought (not by choice) that this is the place they want to go. There is no evidence to support this.

I would prioritise as follows:
1) Airport stop as close as possible to existing terminal. An AMS or STN scenario would be ideal, but I think we will end up with something more like BCN, judging by the plans!

Please talk in plain English. Even a trainspotter would have difficulty in following you. I think it should be a VGA via a BNC out to a PPE promoted by a NGO.

2) Stops at Trinity and O'Connell Street; it cannot be either/or, otherwise why bother running the metro under the city if it's going to bypass the places people want and need to go to.

You are assuming thats where people want to go based on the radial system that dominated public transport planning in the past

3) Tara Street interchange.
4) GJ - subject to proper CBA

Would you like a photo of this decrepit station that offers very limited scope for expansion even with a station underneath it. It might be the busiest station in Ireland but it is probably an "also ran" when compared with a rail stations in other European cities. Why make this an interchange (encouraging more commuters) when the existing station can hardly handle DART/ARROW traffic. Also the scope for dispersed exits is limited.

I also talked informally to the RPA late last year about Tara Street and it is my understanding that a travelator linking Trinity and Tara was their preferred option at that time...

The stop on the south side should be Tara-Trinity linking the D'Olier Street metro ticket concourse with the DART platforms at Tara via an underground walkway.

Why, to avoid a 5 min walk to the existing Tara St. Station we build an underground passage?

Passengers for the Maynooth-Bray DART could enter the station at D'Olier Street and take the walkway to Tara. The benefits are as follows:

- All the pressure taken off the existing concourse at Tara as most Tara Street passengers would enter/exit via the D'Olier Street concourse.

- Journeys such as Sandymount-DCU and Dun Laoghaire-Mater hospital become very feasible as the Tara Street interchange gives the fastest, most direct journey possible.

- 80% of metro passengers won't be going to/from the airport, they will be going to the other stations on the line.

All reasonable but you are assuming too much and all of this can be achieved by a station at Connolly and a second integrated station north of Connolly.

As for Brian D's assertion that the metro doesn't integrate with everything, that's just laughable. It connects with suburban trains and luas at Stephen's Green, suburban trains at Tara, luas at O'Connell Street, and practically every single bus route in dublin city. You know that Brian, don't you?

It's not laughable, it's true. The metro doesn't reach its true potential and achieve its own objectives without going to Connolly where it becomes integrated with mainline rail, suburban rail, the luas, Bus Eireann, and as many bus routes that go up O'Connell St. The line can then progress south and terminate in Stephens Green and link up with the Green line (even though it will have probably extended north by then but then the RPA forgot to put possible routes on their consultation map like a proper project manager would) and other bus routes. This I know, do you?

Metrobest wrote:

What's not true about my statement?

Nobody asked Irish Rail to build a station on Sheriff St.
Nobody wanted a station on Sheriff St, certainly no Maynooth line passenger did.

Irish Rail therefore decided to build a station at Sheriff Street, Dublin 1, that nobody asked for and nobody wanted.

They may have consulted some of the residents of the corporation housing down at Sheriff St who'll have to suffer the noise and disruption for two years+, but they never consulted passengers on the Maynooth line due to dumped each morning into one of Dublin's dodgiest areas.

You also forget that Maynooth passengers could (if the RPA had the wit to do it) change north of the city centre and head to the airport and Swords or South to the centre. This would relieve pressure at stations in the city centre improving the commute for everyone. Alternatively, They could continue on the line and terminate in a station convenient to Dublin 1, 2 and 3.

You clearly have not been in Dublin for some time. Would you like a map of Dublin and some photos??? As another poster stated, there was consultation process but a rail extension lacks the 'sexiness' of a brand new line. As I live in Dublin and work in the docklands (though south of the river) there is a clear demand for the service and it makes perfect sense to site a station here. As you also know from your knowledge of Dublin that the city centre has been shifting east over the years. In the 1800's Capel St. was in its prime, then O'Connel St and how the massive developments east of the DART line on both sides of the river.

Also given your snobbery of referring to Sherrif St. as one of Dublin's "dodgiest areas" , I am surprised that you support a line serving the northside. You might let us know if only nice northsiders will be allowed on the line or we should delete some of the stations that serve areas that have had bad reputations in the past?

Metrobest, while we have differed on the RPA v IR approach to rail transport and how it should be built and run. I am amazed that your overall approach to public transport is still a radial approach focused on O'Connell St. Just because we have been traditionally delivered there in the past by rail and bus is not a good enough reason why we should continue to so so.

Winters

Metrobest wrote:

What's not true about my statement?

Nobody asked Irish Rail to build a station on Sheriff St.
Nobody wanted a station on Sheriff St, certainly no Maynooth line passenger did.

Irish Rail therefore decided to build a station at Sheriff Street, Dublin 1, that nobody asked for and nobody wanted.

They may have consulted some of the residents of the corporation housing down at Sheriff St who'll have to suffer the noise and disruption for two years+, but they never consulted passengers on the Maynooth line due to dumped each morning into one of Dublin's dodgiest areas.

While I would certainly agree with the notion that the exact location of the terminus leaves a lot to be desired it is a station of best fit considering the masterplan for the whole area over the next 10 years. The Route 90 bus shall be filling the gaps in the interim for Maynooth commuters wishing to further into the city centre.

The one thing that Maynooth line commuters and residents have been asking for and at great lengths has been more trains. With the increase in trains on the northern line and the lack of slots into Connolly over the next 10 years the most cost effective solution was deemed Spencer Dock.

Your belief that Tara Street is a worthwhile connection was shared by Seamus Brennan and John Henry of the DTO but since then the plans have changed and the RPA now agree that it is not an ideal connection.

Tara Street will be served by DART services from Greystones and Pace/Maynooth. For passengers coming from between Pearse and Greystones and wishing to go to O'Connell Street there would be no advantage to walking underground to Trinity only to go one stop to the O'Connell Street outside the Gresham when walking straight from Tara Street to O'Connell Street would take the same amount of time. Would you agree with that statement?

For passengers coming from between Pearse and Greystones and wishing to go to the Airport then changing at Tara to walk to Trinity would take longer than staying on the DART and changing at either Drumcondra or Glasnevin.

I am not an advocate of the connection with Tara Street because put simply better and more cost effective integration could be achieved with a direct interchange at either Drumcondra or Glasnevin.

The knock-on effects that would have on the rest of the system and its design would benefit the user in the guise of shorter journey times and the cost can be allocated elsewhere in the project ie cut and cover in south Ballymun and airport tunnel.

One again I urge you to attend these open days to clear up any misgivings you have about the project.

BrianD wrote:

It's not laughable, it's true. The metro doesn't reach its true potential and achieve its own objectives without going to Connolly where it becomes integrated with mainline rail, suburban rail, the luas, Bus Eireann, and as many bus routes that go up O'Connell St. The line can then progress south and terminate in Stephens Green and link up with the Green line (even though it will have probably extended north by then but then the RPA forgot to put possible routes on their consultation map like a proper project manager would) and other bus routes. This I know, do you?

Brian while you are correct to assume the metro should integrate with the major stations in Ireland its primary function is still to serve the commuter and more importantly the northside commuter.

The RPA did indeed look at connecting with Connolly Station as instructed by Seamus Brennan. He ordered it to connect with either Connolly or Tara Street at one stage but this was in the context of no other rail plans being given the go ahead. Transport 21 changed that and now all the projects have clearer briefs and know exactly the locations and timescales of the other projects.

With that im mind the RPA continued examining connecting the Connolly and Tara but realised that their major objective as outlined by the DTO is to serve the commuter and O'Connell Street is the #1 destination north of the liffey. It was deducted that the metro alignment could not successfully serve both O'Connell Street AND Connolly and passengers predictions were highest for O'Connell Street so Connolly Station was dropped from the plans. This happened well over 3 years ago if my memory serves me correctly.

In hindsight an alignment to Connolly station and back to St. Stephen's Green would have just duplicated the proposed DART routes anyway.

BendiBus

I wonder will Michael O'Leary be at the open days.

He trashed the idea of a metro yesterday. From the "Irish" Daily Mail:

Mr O'Leary went on to say that he was not a supporter of `grandioso' plans that involve `p****** away billions of pounds' on railways to air-ports that don't work and don't pay for themselves.

`The classic example of this is the Eur 1.5 billion lunatic proposal by Martin Cullen to link Stephen's Green with Dublin airport. Nobody lives in Stephen's Green. Who in their right minds is going to get out of bed in Foxrock or anywhere else to go to Stephen's Green to get a train to the airport?' he said.

The man should stick to aeroplanes. This idea of the Metro being just a link from the Green to the Airport needs to be killed. It's like calling the DART "the railway to the ferryport" because there's a stop at Dun Laoghaire. I'm hoping the people of the Northside understand what's actually being proposed and don't get fooled by this sort of 'bollockology'.

MarkoP11

Well the Metro was mean't to be Swords Shanganagh that solves the Foxrock problem.

End of the day Ryanair don't need a metro the load factor proves that, once he can fill the planes why would you need a metro from a business point of view it offers no benefit, turn the tables where the load factor was low and then I'd say the view is different

Winters

The RPA anticipate that 80% of the users will be commuters so O'Leary's arguement is a bit off the mark.

BrianD

Well O'Leary was spot on when he made his observations on the original plan the was entirely focused on having a showcase metro linking the airport. There was no thought to it other than somebody said we should have a train go to the airport. Commuters on the northside weren't even considered. At least the current plan is Swords to the city with the Airport served as a secondary objective. Any of the three routes proposed will be of enormous benefit to the "central" area of the northside that has no rail or tram services. That's agreed and a no brainer.

We have to look at the optimum solution in the context of a commuting solution for Dublin. On this map we will have all the lines irrespective of the operator or type - tram, rail, underground etc. It's odd the the RPA can produce a consultation map without drawing these lines in the same style as their proposed routes so people can start visualising their transport network along the lines as looking at a metro map for a European city. This is important if you are an ordinary person wanting to make an informed comment.

I believe that having both a northern station i.e Glasnevin Junction (GJ) or Drumcondra and the Connolly station interchanges are essential to achieving the objectives of facilitating Dublin commuters (whether they are airport users or not) and those traveling to the airport from afar. With these vital stations in place the metro north will have a one change scenario for those using the Maynooth Line, Dart line, suburban rail, Red line and Green line tram as well as facilitating Bus Eireann passengers and mainline line services that go to Connolly. Furthermore, it will ease pinch points meaning that some passengers will no longer have to end up in the busier stations in the city centre.

murphaph

BrianD wrote:

I believe that having both a northern station i.e Glasnevin Junction (GJ) or Drumcondra and the Connolly station interchanges are essential to achieving the objectives of facilitating Dublin commuters (whether they are airport users or not) and those traveling to the airport from afar. With these vital stations in place the metro north will have a one change scenario for those using the Maynooth Line, Dart line, suburban rail, Red line and Green line tram as well as facilitating Bus Eireann passengers and mainline line services that go to Connolly. Furthermore, it will ease pinch points meaning that some passengers will no longer have to end up in the busier stations in the city centre.

Busaras may move house to Broadstone for all we know. As for serving Connolly to serve mainline rail passengers, well you only serve Belfast and Dundalk passengers, the vast bulk of IC rail travel is into Heuston so you would be diverting for very little really. The metro can't be dragged east and west like a snake or it will be uncompetitive on journey times. Better to get this phase of T21 over and in ten years look again at a DART spur to the airport.

Winters

The metro will serve everyone.

For all of those working in the city centre I strongly urge you to attend:

* Monday, April 3rd 2006:
Dublin City Council Offices, Wood Quay, Dublin 8
1100hrs - 2000hrs

Ask as many questions as you wish, you will find the RPA to be extremely open and friendly.

BrianD

murphaph wrote:

Busaras may move house to Broadstone for all we know. As for serving Connolly to serve mainline rail passengers, well you only serve Belfast and Dundalk passengers, the vast bulk of IC rail travel is into Heuston so you would be diverting for very little really. The metro can't be dragged east and west like a snake or it will be uncompetitive on journey times. Better to get this phase of T21 over and in ten years look again at a DART spur to the airport.

That may well happen. However, hitting Connolly is not going to not going to cause a significant route change to the line nor is building a station where the metro intersects the MAynooth line north of Connolly. There is real value for having two integration points from a passenger point of view.

Now that you mention Heuston and in response to Metrobests comments about locating a station at Spencer Dock in the fastest growing part of the city centre. Heuston is more periperal to the city centre than either Connolly or Spencer Dock.

Winters

BrianD wrote:

That may well happen. However, hitting Connolly is not going to not going to cause a significant route change to the line nor is building a station where the metro intersects the MAynooth line north of Connolly. There is real value for having two integration points from a passenger point of view.

Now that you mention Heuston and in response to Metrobests comments about locating a station at Spencer Dock in the fastest growing part of the city centre. Heuston is more periperal to the city centre than either Connolly or Spencer Dock.

I propose that you put that to the engineers at the open day however my opinion is that hitting Connolly Station is a VERY significant route change. A deviation to Connolly Station would not allow the metro to serve O'Connell Street, one of the stations with the highest predicted patronage.

Remember that the route will be underground and the tunnel is restricted to a certain radius of curvature. The only additional services that hitting Connolly would serve would be Belfast Intercity of which there are only two trains in the morning, both after 9am and Dundalk commuters.

murphaph

Taking in Connolly is indeed a major route deviation and it would be impossible to serve O'Connell St (remember the O'Connell/Henry st area is the number one shopping destination on this island and with Arnott's plans is due to become even more important!). You really get very little benefit by serving Enterprise and Dundalk commuters in this way and atually inconvenience many more people than you serve by taking them away from the prime retail areas (all day traffic as well as staff commuting).

There is also liitle point in serving Connolly and another point on the Maynooth line just north west of Connolly. It'd be impossible to justify that duplication.

MarkoP11

If a station was built on the Maynooth line eg Glasnevin, that covers all westbound trains. Tara St is completely redundant as anything that goes through Tara will go through Glasnevin, in fact more trains may go through Glasnevin. Stephens Green catches all Kildare and Northern line. That leaves Connolly with Dundalk and beyond as is current

A deviation to Connolly would be extremely difficult, its big change and a very long deviation, of course passengers arriving from the northside and east Meath and Louth would be better off changing before hitting Connolly if they where looking for Airport, Swords etc. At this point you are relying on Dublin Bus who appear to want to offer a matching orbital route

There are two realistic solutions both of which offer I think a higher benefit both avoid the wrong way travel

1 Metro extends from Swords back to the coast offering interchange with northern line
2 Grange Rd - Airport DART spur is built to serve north fringe and airport

We need to decentralise the connections from the O'Connell Street model, under T21 you get a ring of interchanges mainly on the city centre edges Heuston, Liffey Junc, Glasnevin, O'Connell Street, Connolly, Spencer Dock, Pearse, St Stephen's Green, High Street (Lucan Luas). Thats very sensible as all your eggs are not in one basket.

dowlingm

MarkoP11

I am a big supporter of the Swords-Belfast line extension idea - what do you feel its chances are? I thought metro would have been better as DART as it could have interoperated with Belfast line DART but even standard gauge and a transfer at somewhere like Balbriggan would cut journey time significantly.

MarkoP11

Its not interoperable thats a pity, its only useful for a Drogheda Airport journey, its would be a lot slower (and a lot less comfortable) than the train to reach the city

I'd say its a issue for Fingal CC to make the case first

murphaph

It won't happen for some time if ever but an extension to the coastal line would be most excellent. Balbriggan is one of the 3 'towns' in Fingal to be developed. It makes sense for the county that Swords be connected to a line that connects to Balbriggan. The airport is the largest employer in the county and FCC would be fairly proactive in anything rail (they have demonstrated this already). The problem would be that the metro would miss Malahide and there's nothing north of there of any significance until you reach Balbriggan. I had a quick look at google and it's not that far (though no doubt still expensive) across green fields (cheaper at grade running) to Donabate and if FCC reserve an alignment you'd be able to get right in to the station area. It'd be great for airport/DCU/Mater bound passengers from Donabate, Balbriggan and Drogheda (and probably Dundalk and Belfast enterprise). You'd really be able to consider Dublin to have a half decent network with a link like that in place.

jlang

Extending to Donabate would only happen in line with a mojor increase in population and development around there. That's not on the current plan which focusses on Swords, Balbriggan and Blanch so you're talking well into the future.

BrianD

Winters wrote:

I propose that you put that to the engineers at the open day however my opinion is that hitting Connolly Station is a VERY significant route change. A deviation to Connolly Station would not allow the metro to serve O'Connell Street, one of the stations with the highest predicted patronage.

Remember that the route will be underground and the tunnel is restricted to a certain radius of curvature. The only additional services that hitting Connolly would serve would be Belfast Intercity of which there are only two trains in the morning, both after 9am and Dundalk commuters.

I think O'Connell St. could be happily missed from the metro north. It's already served by Red line tram and bus services. I fail to see how O'Connell St could would have a "very significant" patronage - particularly if the station is located at the north end. Connolly is well within walking distance. Again we are giving into the old system where people were dumped in O'Connell St by a radial bus network.

Anyway we can safely say that metro north has already failed one of the objectives that the RPA has set (not just for Dublin people). Again, outstanding performance for the boffins at the RPA.

BendiBus

Went along to Wood Quay today. Spoke with an RPA person about the general level of integration with other services. Expressed my views and took away a comments postcard to fill in. I didn't want to write my comments there and then.

An elevated travelator is proposed if the airport stop is in the vicinity of the Great Southern Hotel. Better than nothing maybe but still not the best option.

A possible combination of red & blue routes where it's red from the Stephens Green to Drumcondra and then the route cuts across to the blue route before DCU. At least that would link with the existing Maynooth line but not with the Newcomen line. Not at all convinced that's the best option. The other end of Whitworth Road brings Phibsboro into the catchment area. Of course Irish Rail would need to be on board for something to happen there.

Integration with Luas Tallaght line is basically a short walk to Abbey. The underground station would be in line with O'Connell St so there would be an exit well south of the Northern end of O'Connell St somewhere around the Spire.

Cost is the main driving factor for the compromises. Such is life, can't blame the RPA for that.

I think I'll stick to my guns and support an airport terminal stop and proper integration in the Glasnevin Jct area.

A lot of encouragement was being given to fill in comment sheets. I guess if enough interest is shown in the project this may result in more political support for the best solution (and give the RPA a better budget?).

BrianD wrote:

I fail to see how O'Connell St could would have a "very significant" patronage - particularly if the station is located at the north end.

O'Connell St is an incredibly busy place, as is Parnell St. And the most important shopping district in the city is there too. I fail to see how O'Connell St wouldn't be busy!

BrianD

I agree with your thoughts, Bendibus. However we need to forget about cost unless we need a repeat of the M50 where sub-standard junctions were built because of cost factors.

In regard to O'Connell St, I'd prefer to see it chopped and the station at Connolly. O'Connell St. and the Henry St shopping areas are already served by tram with the possibility of the Green line tram serving it. Of course, this may not happen if the metro serves O'Connell St. How on earth can the RPA ask for a public opinion without putting these on the consultation map?

The map should have clearly highlighted the existing DART/Arrow routes and the proposed routes for the green line extension and the metro west. It seems that the RPA see IR as a competitor and this simply can't be allowed.

Winters

OK, hang on a second BrianD and let me get this straight cos I find it hard to believe.

You 'fail to see how O'Connell St could would have a "very significant" patronage'?

You would perfer all northside commuters along the metro north line to de dropped at Connolly rather than O'Connell Street?

Do you live in Ireland? Seriously I'm not being sarcastic I just cant understand how someone can actually have that view. I argued with a certain BillH on this board about the citing of the interconnector station at St. Stephen's Green rather than College Green and his remarks were somewhat digestable but this bites the biscuit.

When you go into the city centre, where do you go?

Metrobest

Winters wrote:

I propose that you put that to the engineers at the open day however my opinion is that hitting Connolly Station is a VERY significant route change. A deviation to Connolly Station would not allow the metro to serve O'Connell Street, one of the stations with the highest predicted patronage.

Remember that the route will be underground and the tunnel is restricted to a certain radius of curvature. The only additional services that hitting Connolly would serve would be Belfast Intercity of which there are only two trains in the morning, both after 9am and Dundalk commuters.

I agree with you assessment of Connolly, Winters, however I still think you are overlooking the key benefits of a Tara Street interchange. The tunnel alignment would not be significantly altered, if at all, to accomodate a Trinity-Tara underground travelator. It would be madness to ignore the potential of two high-capacity rail lines running so close to each other, with stations located a very short distance apart, and the need for a more suitable ticket concourse at Tara Street.

Interconnectivity is essential, I do agree; and in metro systems the world over it's worth noting that the busiest interchanges are also the most centrally-located. Put simply, not withstanding train loadings arriving into the station from outer suburban areas, the volume of people in a city centre area is bound to generate patronage levels impossible in the suburban environment. Any enhancements to the city centre rail network have their own spin-off benefits in terms of ease of access to the city, mobility, and congestion on the footpaths.

Opposite Doyle's pub on D'Olier Street there is a paved triangular area where an escalator shaft could lead into the metro/DART ticket concourse. Another escalator could surface at Aston Quay. A third at Westmoreland Street tram stop. Just imagine for one moment the incredible potential for bus passengers to make swift connections with DART and metro. These are the kind of facilities found in cities the world over, for example Sydney's Central Station. The interchange travelator makes all this possible.

I think the benefits of an interchange at Tara should not be underestimated - it's a two-way benefit as it helps existing passengers using Tara to access the city centre faster, and allows metro passengers take the fastest change for the DART southbound. It opens up a whole new range of easy commuting possibilities for passengers heading northbound from Bray in a one-change environment. It entices bus passengers to change onto the rail mode.

If a GJ interchange can be included at a reaonable cost then I'm in favour also.

paulm17781

Metrobest wrote:

Opposite Doyle's pub on D'Olier Street there is a paved triangular area where an escalator shaft could lead into the metro/DART ticket concourse. Another escalator could surface at Aston Quay. A third at Westmoreland Street tram stop. Just imagine for one moment the incredible potential for bus passengers to make swift connections with DART and metro. These are the kind of facilities found in cities the world over, for example Sydney's Central Station. The interchange travelator makes all this possible.

I talked to the RPA yesterday. There is no chance of getting a station this grandoise. You (If you really care about public transport and not fantasy) would be better off backing an alignment avoiding Tara & Connolly with proper interchanges at Stephen's Green & Drumcondra. These things are likely to happen, your idea would be ignored.

For the record I always thought those toilets opposite Doyle's would be a great entrance to a metro station.

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

Opposite Doyle's pub on D'Olier Street there is a paved triangular area where an escalator shaft could lead into the metro/DART ticket concourse. Another escalator could surface at Aston Quay. A third at Westmoreland Street tram stop.

The above is not possible given the RPA's watertight budget. Believe me metrobest, I spoke to them and they're a nice bunch of people-they do NOT have the kind of money required for such a station.

Metrobest wrote:

I think the benefits of an interchange at Tara should not be underestimated - it's a two-way benefit as it helps existing passengers using Tara to access the city centre faster

How, exactly? Tara st is in the city centre already. How would anyone's journey be made any faster by decending from an elevated rail line, through the ground floor to a deep bore station which cannot be located vertically under Tara st (and so has to be roughly where the Screen Cinema is at best) to change onto a train which is unlikely to be at the platform when you arrive, when you could just walk from Tara to anywhere in the city centre in the same time frame? In any case, existing Tara passengers for the most part will not be the Tara passengers of 2015 as the DART will change to two DART routes in an X configuration, Maynooth-Bray and Balbriggan-Hazelhatch, interchanging at Pearse. With an interchange at Glasnevin or Drumcondra, very few journeys IF ANY could not be accomplished in the same time by changing at Tara as by changing at these locations, even northbound journeys, for example O'Connell St would be as fast on foot from Tara as negotiationg all those escalators and concourses just to travel one stop north! With the Mater stop it'd be almost as fast to remain on the DART to Drumcondra/Glasnevin and change ad head southbound (of course,many would just walk as it's not that far from either). As for buses making interchange with metro in the city centre-that's not how quality transport networks employ buses-they run orbitally and locally, feeding into the high capacity rail networks. That is the aim for Dublin too. We want a day when far fewer buses need to trundle to an lar.

Metrobest wrote:

...and allows metro passengers take the fastest change for the DART southbound.

The only possible metro journey I can see that northbound DART passengers would have a time advanage on would be if they wanted to get to Stephen's Green, but again-they can take the interconnector across from Pearse or just walk the 7 odd minutes it takes

Metrobest wrote:

If a GJ interchange can be included at a reaonable cost then I'm in favour also.

It's sad that you see more potential in Tara as an interchange location than Glasnevin or Drumcondra (IMO a better bet at this stage).

jd

murphaph wrote:

As for buses making interchange with metro in the city centre-that's not how quality transport networks employ buses-they run orbitally and locally, feeding into the high capacity rail networks. That is the aim for Dublin too. We want a day when far fewer buses need to trundle to an lar.


.

The indo are at it again-editorial today (mainly about inegrated ticketing).
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=44&si=1591568&issue_id=13870

And talking about integration, or lack of it, what about the proposed Grand Central Station for Dublin's public transport at St Stephen's Green.
The hub for the buses is around the O'Connell St-Westmoreland St-College Green-Quays area, more than a good walk from the proposed meeting place for buses, trams and the metro.
Mind you if they can't get a simple thing like an integrated ticket right what chance is there of fixing the capital's public transport deficit.

I wonder what the indo would propose?

Metrobest

I'd settle for a watered-down version of what I'm suggesting - one travelator linking Tara and Trinity. I don't think this is off the table by any stretch of the imagination, nor is it a "fantasy" on my part. The idea has support at the most senior level and was first floated in the Sunday Times about three years ago and since then the idea has been actively pursued. Last year the RPA told me they would have an interchange at Tara so long as the budget would accomodate it. You can see from the route maps, with stops at Hawkins St, that such an interchange has been planned comprehensively.

I would love to see the comparative cost estimates for interchanges at Drumcondra, GJ and Tara. Why would Drumondra work out cheaper, where exactly would the metro station be located there and where would the exits be located? It's not the worst location for an interchange, Drumcondra, but the Tara-Trinity interchange has so much in its favour: location, location, location, as they say. Plus it is strengthened by the fact that there is significant potential for a retail development the length of the travelor which would offset some of cost of building it.

You make a lot of good points Philip, there's not much I can disagree with, but I still think there is so much untapped benefit for a Tara-Trinity interchange that is essential it be built.

I also think you're being slightly idealistic to think that T21 will do away with the need for buses through "an lar". When all of T21 is done, examine a map of Dublin and just look at all those suburbs which will still be well outside the catchment area of luas, metro or DART. Eg. Rathmines, Rathfarnham, Terenure, Templeogue, Harolds Cross, Kimmage, Crumlin, Walkinstown, Stoneybatter, Navan Road, Donnybrook and tens more of Dublin's most established suburbs. Those areas will continue to generate extensive trip demand to and from the city centre and almost all will contine to pass by metro stops, where integration must happen. I've poured (sic) over Dublin Bus's network review and I see nothing in it to suggest this situation will change. The review begs the government not to tamper with the existing throughput of buses through the central axis.

I see the Indo's up to its old "facts can't get in the way of a good story" trick. Barcelona doesn't have an integrated smart card and the Dutch smartcard project is also still in development stage, just like Ireland's.

mackerski

The Indo article is yet another example of their content-free journalism, where indignation is an acceptable substitute for facts. The nifty thing about buses is that they are somewhat mobile. Stephen's Green, of course, is a large-capacity roadway that's had a lot of traffic turfed off it recently. It ought to be possible to provide a lot of buses for onward journeys from there - assuming it can be demonstrated that the rail connections don't already do the job. And if some onward buses do still go from College Green, isn't it lucky we're getting a metro station there too?

Of course, even a stopped clock is right twice a day - the "integrated" smart card was always going to be a crock, even though the Indo doesn't seem to realise (or care) why it's a crock.

Dermot

mackerski

Metrobest wrote:

I would love to see the comparative cost estimates for interchanges at Drumcondra, GJ and Tara. Why would Drumondra work out cheaper, where exactly would the metro station be located there and where would the exits be located? It's not the worst location for an interchange, Drumcondra, but the Tara-Trinity interchange has so much in its favour: location, location, location, as they say.

Tara St. is indeed a good location - for a destination. There's no reason a destination can't also be a good interchange - Stephen's Green springs to mind, as do many examples abroad. But a useful interchange doesn't have to be a good destination. It simply has to fulfil two conditions:

1) Located proximate to two or more modes of transport
2) Enables passengers on one mode to improve their journey by interchanging at that spot. This improvement could be measured in absolute terms ("Changing from Maynooth DART to Metro at Glasnevin lets me alight at the Green instead of Pearse") or relative to other possible interchanges ("Changing from Maynooth DART to Metro at Glasnevin will cut at least 15 minutes off my trip to the airport compared to a change at Tara St. And I won't have to haul my luggage through a sea of commuters").

Dermot

Victor

mackerski wrote:

Tara St. is indeed a good location - for a destination. There's no reason a destination can't also be a good interchange - Stephen's Green springs to mind, as do many examples abroad. But a useful interchange doesn't have to be a good destination.

The best interchanges tend to also be destinations, whether created by the interchange or vice versa

mackerski

Victor wrote:

The best interchanges tend to also be destinations, whether created by the interchange or vice versa

Who says? I'll certainly agree that some destinations tend to be good interchanges by accident of position. But consider a place like Clapham Junction as an example of what I'm talking about.

Dermot