Are SUV's that bad?

big_al

Good article Alan but the author seems to have a slight bias towards cars. Anyway, whatever the SUV bashers say, they're just cars. Albeit slightly bigger (in general, prospect!). Is it because they deviate from the norm that 'normal' people will always have something to say. E.g., at the other end of the scale, most car drivers aren't exactly enamoured with motorbikes . . .

@Nelly . . . whatever, at all at all :-)

emaherx

I know SUV's kill peolpe
but don't Honda Civic's kill people also?
I know there is a diffrance in weight, but when I drive my Landrover Defender, I do so with due care.
I think you'll find more people are killed by speeding cars, then SUV's (not trying to imply that no SUV driver speeds)

prospect

big_al wrote:

Anyway, whatever the SUV bashers say, they're just cars. Albeit slightly bigger (in general, prospect!).

Wooahh there now a minute.
I am not referring to large, petrol 4wd SUVs, like a X5.
I am talking about the smaller, diesel ones, like a Rav4.

As said elsewhere, are they not just an estate car on stilts?

blastman

According to an article I read, SUV drivers can be more complacent because they are driving a large heavy vehicle which will survive a crash better than say, a Honda Civic. Also, SUVs are less nimble than the aforementioned Civic and therefore less able to avoid an accident in the first place. This picks holes in the argument that they are somehow safer than a normal car, a major reason why the mummies claim they need to buy them.

big_al

prospect wrote:

Wooahh there now a minute.
I am not referring to large, petrol 4wd SUVs, like a X5.
I am talking about the smaller, diesel ones, like a Rav4.

As said elsewhere, are they not just an estate car on stilts?

Me neither, but a rav or freelander or CRV are bigger and heavier than say a golf or focus estate (even one on stilts!)

prospect

big_al wrote:

Me neither, but a rav or freelander or CRV are bigger and heavier than say a golf or focus estate (even one on stilts!)

Well thats true I suppose.



So speaking of the smaller, 2wd, diesel SUVs, it seems to me that the mainstream 'issues' with them is:

1. Misinformation regarding their weight/size (footprint)/economy.
2. Perception of the drivers ability, i.e. usually a woman who is not capable or willing to drive the machine properly

Yes or no?

alias no.9

Here's a useful and valid comparrison based on one of the examples cited in the original post, the hyundai tucson. Like many soft roaders, the tucson is based on a humble family car, the hyundai elantra, so here's the comparrison based on each model with a 2.0CRDI engine…

The tucson is 4% shorter, 4% wider, 18% higher, 25% heavier, 11% thirstier, 19% slower to 60mph, it has a 12% lower top speed and can't seat any additional passengers. On a positive note, it does have 47% more luggage space but we're comparing it to a hatchback rather than an estate. Other than this all it's got is a higher driving position and a greater ability to mount kerbs outside schools making parking spaces where a humble elantra could never hope to go, who cares if it forces other peoples little darlings to have to walk out onto the road while restricting the visibility of other drivers to their movements. There is no price available for the elantra 2.0crdi in ireland, but in england the tucson 2.0crdi carries a 49% price premium over the elantra 2.0crdi. I'm not saying I'd consider buying an elantra in a million years but if you want to pay a huge extra price for a tucson, essentially a tarted up elantra, it's your money.

prospect

alias no.9 wrote:

Here's a useful and valid comparrison based on one of the examples cited in the original post, the hyundai tucson. Like many soft roaders, the tucson is based on a humble family car, the hyundai elantra, so here's the comparrison based on each model with a 2.0CRDI engine…

The tucson is 4% shorter, 4% wider, 18% higher, 25% heavier, 11% thirstier, 19% slower to 60mph, it has a 12% lower top speed and can't seat any additional passengers. On a positive note, it does have 47% more luggage space but we're comparing it to a hatchback rather than an estate. Other than this all it's got is a higher driving position and a greater ability to mount kerbs outside schools making parking spaces where a humble elantra could never hope to go, who cares if it forces other peoples little darlings to have to walk out onto the road while restricting the visibility of other drivers to their movements. There is no price available for the elantra 2.0crdi in ireland, but in england the tucson 2.0crdi carries a 49% price premium over the elantra 2.0crdi. I'm not saying I'd consider buying an elantra in a million years but if you want to pay a huge extra price for a tucson, essentially a tarted up elantra, it's your money.

Very good comparison.

big_al

prospect wrote:

Well thats true I suppose.



So speaking of the smaller, 2wd, diesel SUVs, it seems to me that the mainstream 'issues' with them is:

1. Misinformation regarding their weight/size (footprint)/economy.
2. Perception of the drivers ability, i.e. usually a woman who is not capable or willing to drive the machine properly

Yes or no?

YES and YES. They're just (different) cars and the stereotypical driver being a provisional licence holding, school-running mummy is unfortunate

maidhc

alias no.9 wrote:

Here's a useful and valid comparrison based on one of the examples cited in the original post, the hyundai tucson. Like many soft roaders, the tucson is based on a humble family car, the hyundai elantra, so here's the comparrison based on each model with a 2.0CRDI engine…

The tucson is 4% shorter, 4% wider, 18% higher, 25% heavier, 11% thirstier, 19% slower to 60mph, it has a 12% lower top speed and can't seat any additional passengers. On a positive note, it does have 47% more luggage space but we're comparing it to a hatchback rather than an estate. Other than this all it's got is a higher driving position and a greater ability to mount kerbs outside schools making parking spaces where a humble elantra could never hope to go, who cares if it forces other peoples little darlings to have to walk out onto the road while restricting the visibility of other drivers to their movements. There is no price available for the elantra 2.0crdi in ireland, but in england the tucson 2.0crdi carries a 49% price premium over the elantra 2.0crdi. I'm not saying I'd consider buying an elantra in a million years but if you want to pay a huge extra price for a tucson, essentially a tarted up elantra, it's your money.

That says it all really.

AlanD

prospect wrote:

Wooahh there now a minute.
I am not referring to large, petrol 4wd SUVs, like a X5.
I am talking about the smaller, diesel ones, like a Rav4.

As said elsewhere, are they not just an estate car on stilts?

Yep they are, however some are really not as safe as their car equivalents....check out EuroNCAP.....

joeblogg1

Right
I am bloody fed up with all the rubbish being talked about here (most of the posts have nothing at all to do with the original post anyway)

I drive a 2.7 Litre Diesel Ssangyong Rexton. It is a permanent 2 wheel drive switchable to 4 wheel drive if I go into a field in mid winter in west Kerry (which I am unlikely toi do)

Yes you can all say what the hell does he want one of those on the road for
Yes you can say who does he think he is etc etc etc etc

Read My Lips :Go drive your own eco friendly rust bucket and leave me and other SUV drivers alone!!!!!

My car is diesel with better mpg and less emissions than many of my previous autos.
I have better vision and less blind spots from the drivers seat than in any car I have ever driven before (including Mercs, BMWs, Fords, VWs etc etc)

I am constantly almost side swiped/rear ended etc by bloody idiots in Nissan Micras on the M50 as they appear to think that they are really driving a Ferrari and that their 1.0 Litre engine really develops 500 bhp, thereby allowing them to overtake on the inside and pull back out into the fast lane without indicating etc etc. Given this level of absolute genius driving out there , yes I do feel safer in my big car and I would have an even bigger one if given the choice. (Roll on the Humvie!!!)

I dont drive this car for status (it is a Ssangyong, not an X5). I could have bought a small Merc, BMW , Audi or Jag for the money but nothing came even close to the level of kit inside and the level of comfort in this car.

prospect

maidhc wrote:

That says it all really.

Well, although it is an excellent comparison, it still doesn't address the original point.

Who is less considerate to other road users, and less environmentally aware:

1. Woman with 1 child in a 2wd Diesel Nissan X-Trail
2. Businessman on his own in a 5L petrol S-Class merc

?

Zaph0d

Auto purchase always lead to an identity crisis: Am I a honda civic kind of guy? Am I a diesel driver? Am I a red car type?

in this case the OP wonders if he is a SUV guy. Apart from cost, the practicalities don't count for much when picking a vehicle for yourself; they're used to justify the emotional decision after the fact.

To answer your question you need to study the other drivers of such vehicles and see if you identify with them and their values.

To me a small SUV is contradictory. The message is 'I would like to drive a powerful muscular truck but I can only afford this jumped up noddy car that corners like a pram full of concrete. I am a loser."

dts

The diesel xtrail is 4wd not 2wd.
I hated SUV's untill I drove one. After the test drive I bought one and now I am looking into getting rid of my other car for a second.
As for:
Who is less considerate to other road users, and less environmentally aware:

1. Woman with 1 child in a 2wd Diesel Nissan X-Trail
2. Businessman on his own in a 5L petrol S-Class merc

Both!!!!!!!
oh and dont forget the scrotes who get a saxo stick a big exhaust on it and some plastic bits to make it go faster, they are just as bad.

At the end of the day an SUV is fun to drive:D

unkel

prospect wrote:

Okay, but he is referring to large U.S. vehicles.

No, he isn't. But granted he is talking about large SUVs. Everything he is saying applies too about comparing a same price estate with a small SUV, as in Passat estate vs Freelander. As I already quoted, the Freelander uses 30% more fuel

SUVs will be around for a while as they have their use, but people will laugh about them being used to ferry the kids around in a few years time, same as we're now laughing about the PT cruiser. A fad.

Unfair too in comparing a small 5 seater SUV to a 7 seater MPV. Some people have more children (to drive around) than others...

prospect

Zaph0d wrote:

Auto purchase always lead to an identity crisis: Am I a honda civic kind of guy? Am I a diesel driver? Am I a red car type?

in this case the OP wonders if he is a SUV guy. Apart from cost, the practicalities don't count for much when picking a vehicle for yourself; they're used to justify the emotional decision after the fact.

To answer your question you need to study the other drivers of such vehicles and see if you identify with them and their values.

To me a small SUV is contradictory. The message is 'I would like to drive a powerful muscular truck but I can only afford this jumped up noddy car that corners like a pram full of concrete. I am a loser."

Couldn;t be more wrong.
It is not for me at all, my wife mentioned it, as an option for herself. BTW we have no kids!!

I would prefer she got a better spec'd diesel car for the same money and because I was a bit 'anti-SUV'. But that is what got me thinking. What is the real difference? And my conversation with friends re-inforced my thoughts. Everyone seems too willing to jump on the SUV-Bashing-Bandwagon without considering the facts.

I am more of a sports coupe type, and currently drive an MX5. But it was a nice attempt at psychology there....

dts

If you need 7 seats which would you prefer to drive, and MPV or a SUV?
First a van with windows:eek: , second a cool looking jeepy thing!:cool:

prospect

unkel wrote:

Unfair too in comparing a small 5 seater SUV to a 7 seater MPV. Some people have more children (to drive around) than others...

As I said before unkel, PLEASE READ THE POSTS.

From post #20:

prospect wrote:

Two neighbours, each with an army of kids buy a new car. One gets a petrol Grand Espace, one gets a diesel 7 seater Grand Vitara. The price difference is not relevant here, okay!

Now, the Espace is Longer, Wider, Taller and uses 2.5 more litres per 100Km. Yet the guy with the Grand Vitara is the one stereotyped as not being enviornmentally aware etc etc.
In my eyes, the opposite is infact true.

both 7 seaters.

Anan1

There is, to my knowledge, no such thing as an SUV that is as good on-road as its car equivalent. Jacking up a car will by definition have a negative effect on handling, pedestrian safety, and fuel consumption. There are some people who genuinely need 4x4s. For many, however, they are visible proof of a disturbing trend towards a "f@ck other road users" mentality.

dts

Check out the number of deaths already on Irish roads due to drunk and bad driving. Too right f@ck other road users" mentality.
Untill the gards and the goverment do something to inprove things why wouldnt you do what you can to protect your family?
Oh and did I say its a fun thing to drive a SUV:D

maidhc

prospect wrote:

As I said before unkel, PLEASE READ THE POSTS.

From post #20:



both 7 seaters.

Ummm... I would prefer to be in the espace with 6 others than the Vitara. It is a significantly bigger vehicle.

No one has exactly answered why you would bother with one in the first place, espeically a 2X4 with no off road ability. I think this is the answer to the question. People sneer at SUVs because they symbolise utterly pointless excess. A Jimny is excessive in comparison to a seicento, a X5 to a 5 series.

Of course a 5 series is less caring for the environment than a Jimny, but IMO more capable of justifying it existance (speed, power, comfort, etc etc etc)

dts

Did I say its a fun thing to drive?:D

unkel

prospect wrote:

As I said before unkel, PLEASE READ THE POSTS.

:rolleyes:

Two of the three SUVs in your original post are 5 seaters. The only MPV you list (under cars...) is a 7 seater

Why do you keep avoiding to comment on comparing like with like (estate vs small SUV)?

Oh and don't get me wrong. Anybody should be able to buy any car they want. If the government of the day decides it wants to influence peoples decisions towards more eco-friendly cars or whatever, they can do so via fiscal policies

Anan1

dts wrote:

Check out the number of deaths already on Irish roads due to drunk and bad driving. Too right f@ck other road users" mentality.
Untill the gards and the goverment do something to inprove things why wouldnt you do what you can to protect your family?
Oh and did I say its a fun thing to drive a SUV:D

Not at the expense of other road users safety, no. I've driven several SUVs, and there is now way they could be described as being more fun to drive than their car equivalents. There is a good reason why sports cars are lowered, not raised.;)

prospect

unkel wrote:

Why do you keep avoiding to comment on comparing like with like (estate vs small SUV)?

I am avoiding it because this has NOTHING to do with comparing like with like.

The question I am asking is why it is more socially acceptable to buy a very large & heavy 7 seater people carrier, than a smaller, lighter and more econimical 7 seater SUV?
Why is it more socially acceptable for a person to buy a 5 litre huge merc, which they will probably never fill with people, than for a single person to buy a much smaller and more econimical 3 door SUV.
Why is it more socially acceptable for a someone to drive a large high capacity sports coupe than a more econimical SUV.

I know why it is more acceptable to drive a smaller engined, shorter, narrower, more economical estate car. But that is nothing to do with the original question.
Now, if you are still having trouble understanting this, I suggest you just stay away from this thread as you are just making repetitive and unconstructive posts.

ds20prefecture

prospect wrote:

The question I am asking is why it is more socially acceptable to buy a very large & heavy 7 seater people carrier, than a smaller, lighter and more econimical 7 seater SUV?
Why is it more socially acceptable for a person to buy a 5 litre huge merc, which they will probably never fill with people, than for a single person to buy a much smaller and more econimical 3 door SUV.
Why is it more socially acceptable for a someone to drive a large high capacity sports coupe than a more econimical SUV.

Some ludicrous assumptions there prospect. who says any of them are even remotely socially acceptable? Only idiots and badge buyers buy their car to be socially accepted. The car is not a socially acceptable thing.

To answer the specifics -
1. nobody buys an espace to be cool. how big is the boot in the vitara with 7 up?
2, a 5 litre merc and a 3 door soft roader both shout "I have a tiny penis!!!"
3. I can guarantee a lotus elise is more economical than any petrol SUV.

Why don't we all just buy diesel toyotas, octavias or BMWs? oh wait a minute - we already are.

BeardyGit

Blah blah blah. I drive a real landrover. Not an SUV. I also have a small car which I use as my daily driver. Is this relevant? Yes - It means I'm qualified to call [edit] out anyone attempting to justify the purchase of an SUV on this one.

You and your flock are just the sort of people who cause problems for the rest of us who drive real 4x4's in terms of public perception. I have a reason to drive something with big wheels, lots of ground clearance and a powerful diesel engine. I use it when I need it. But would I use it IRRESPONSIBLY by driving it to the shops, to work or round to visit friends just because I like the look of it? Not a hope mate. I have more respect for other road users and fellow legitimate 4x4 owners.

I drive a 1.1 litre car to and from work and all over this fine country - 28k miles per annum at present. Even if I only did half that, I wouldn't consider using a bloody SUV (pah) as a means of daily transport. There's absolutely NO valid justification for the existence of SUV's.

It's not just those who drive small cars who think SUV's are pointless - Those of us who drive 4x4's also think SUV drivers are a waste of road-space. The only people who look at someone in an SUV and think it's 'cool' are the same fools who think that owning an SUV is going to lead to a lifestyle change. Or idiots who are easily led from one stupid trend to the next. Or silly mommys who think an SUV is a safer vehicle. In fact, it's pretty much the same thing - Blind ignorance and a desire to escape from reality.

I'll tell you what then - Why don't you go buy yourself an SUV. Revel in its mediocre performance. Bask in the glaring stares from those who know better, who understand what it means to be an individual. And when it's all done and you've got it out of your system - Sell it, bemoan the depreciation (nobody will repeat your mistake in a few years time) and move on to follow the next doomed fad.

And through all of this, remember that at any time when you're driving your silly little SUV, someone who can see you will be laughing at you. No really, they will. Look - You will find someone with that knowing grin on their face. Someone who'll make eye contact with you just before you look away with that mistaken belief they're looking at your car and smiling because it looks great or because they think you're an outdoor hero - Just like the guy in the advert. Everywhere you go - We're watching you and laughing. Why? Because you haven't got a clue.... :rolleyes:

Anan1

Actually, Gil_Dub, much as I enjoyed reading, and agreeing with, your last post, I'm not sure, having read his posts, that prospect is the correct target for it.

Prospect -

To answer your question, someone who drives an Espace does so out of necessity. My attitude to having my view blocked by a people carrier is much the same as if it were a bus, ie I wish I could see, but hey, other people need to get around too. SUV drivers, on the other hand, are imposing on others for no valid reason. They themselves, as well as other road users, would be safer & more comfortable had they chosen to drive an equivalent car.

BeardyGit

Anan1 wrote:

Actually, Gil_Dub, much as I enjoyed reading, and agreeing with, your last post, I'm not sure, having read his posts, that prospect is the correct target for it.

Indeed - I'm afraid an original response to Prospect evolved into a general response to the various attempts to justify purchase of an SUV. I've removed the original quote via an 'edit' and extend my apologies to Prospect should he feel personally targetted.

Gil