Reason why so called Thugs rioted on Oconnel Streets

40miles

As you may no most of the people that were involved in the riots were Yoths from poor areas of the inner city of dublin
You may think they used the orange men as a excuse to run riot down oconnel street the real reason in my view was a call out for help As this country flourishes these areas are ignored There is a big line between rich and Poor in this country Im my view The so called lower class are the most discrimnated group of people in our society if something is not done about this propblem of the poor youth of dublin you can expect more of these types of riots in the near future

MrScruff

Remember the Golden rule! :

Whoever has the gold makes the rules

Mr E

Here is a new golden rule.

Use punctuation.

segadreamcast

The Spell Czech forum is pissing itself laughing right now.

Celticfire

40miles wrote:

As you may no most of the people that were involved in the riots were Yoths from poor areas of the inner city of dublin
You may think they used the orange men as a excuse to run riot down oconnel street the real reason in my view was a call out for help As this country flourishes these areas are ignored There is a big line between rich and Poor in this country Im my view The so called lower class are the most discrimnated group of people in our society if something is not done about this propblem of the poor youth of dublin you can expect more of these types of riots in the near future

What do these youths do to help themselves? Is it up to everyone else to just hand them everything?

To get my shiny toys I get off my ar*e and work. Why do they think that they deserve any different?

Rb

That has to be the most ridiculous posts I've read in a long time.

lodgepole

40miles wrote:

Im my view The so called lower class are the most discrimnated group of people in our society

Not to say you're incorrect, but could you elaborate on that point a little?

I agree with the view that it was partly a (very subconscious) cry for help from the youth of this city and that it was a social problem, not a political one.

mike65

I broke therefore I riot.

Mike.

MrJoeSoap

There's an article in this weeks edition of the village thats along the same lines of the OP, although its slightly better from a grammatical p.o.v.

I don't agree with it at all, these people were nothing more than opportunistic thugs, hell bent on making a mess of their own capital city because they oppose anything seen as Loyalist and/or British.

To say they were rioting as a cry for help because they are part of the "lower classes" is complete and utter nonsense.

RandolphEsq

NoelRock wrote:

The Spell Czech forum is pissing itself laughing right now.

lol the spell czech forum

dr zoidberg

How can anyone that riots be a "so-called thug"? Let's call a spade a spade here for god's sake.

Although I agree that it was not just republican v unionist that caused it. There are underlying social issues and imbalances that need to be addressed in this country. The riot itself in my opinion was the result of the build up of subconscious anger at their situation, and this anger finds an outlet through racism and prejudice. Not that this is right, but it's more important to answer the question of why than it is the question of how or who.

And I'm not suggesting that they are conscious of the reasons for their anger, or where the urge to commit acts of violence comes from. It's all too easy to label someone as a thug, without asking why they became one.

Turner

These people riot every night in their own little way.

They are the people who....

kick of wing mirrors
steal cars
break into houses
joyride
ram garda cars
rob people on the street

Celticfire

Chief--- wrote:

These people riot every night in their own little way.

They are the people who....

kick of wing mirrors
steal cars
break into houses
joyride
ram garda cars
rob people on the street

etc,etc,etc.............

smashey

Smash everything you come across on O'Connell Street and sympathy, money and all sorts of opportunities will come your way. I can just see the Judge after being told that the defendant went a bit mad due to lack of opportunity and the fact that those people all over the country are so well off and he wasn't. Jail the little feckers.

Laplandman

originally posted by
Im my view The so called lower class are the most discrimnated group of people in our society

I don't think so. And, according to many, a significant number of the people involved were neither inner-city nor underpriveleged. If you'll forgive me for being somewhat discriminatory, it seems to me that (unless you are familiar with most of those who took part in the incident) you are guilty of either of two things in your observation on the riot:
A) Committing yourself blindly to a surmise as to the actual socio-economic consistency of the rioters
B)Unwittingly doing the former because of your oblivious immersion in a sea of misinformation and the skewed perspectives of commentators with a vested interest in yoking the rioters to a particular pay-bracket/ locale/orientation in order to reinforce/clarify their own identity/interests/appeal.
The simple fact is that these kinds of things make no sense.

lodgepole

smashey wrote:

Smash everything you come across on O'Connell Street and sympathy, money and all sorts of opportunities will come your way. I can just see the Judge after being told that the defendant went a bit mad due to lack of opportunity and the fact that those people all over the country are so well off and he wasn't. Jail the little feckers.

Individually that's fine... But there is a social problem in this country that doesn't exist in many others. The levels of general thuggery in Ireland is astounding to witness when you've been away for a while. You can't throw them all in jail, so as a society we should try to find out why it happens.

astro

lets take everybodys money and give it to these poor scumbags:rolleyes:

astro

****test thread ever

Celticfire

astro wrote:

lets take everybodys money and give it to these poor scumbags:rolleyes:

That allready happens.........

smashey

Lodgepole wrote:

Individually that's fine... But there is a social problem in this country that doesn't exist in many others. The levels of general thuggery in Ireland is astounding to witness when you've been away for a while. You can't throw them all in jail, so as a society we should try to find out why it happens.

You can jail all those caught rioting. I have witnessed as much and sometimes much worse general thuggery in other countries. Regarding social problems, they do exist in other countries. Some are worse than ours and some not as bad. As to why this happens, there is always going to be a small element who have no interest in self help or bettering themselves. Correct me if I am wrong here, but is it not the case that if somebody really wants to make something of their life then they will get all sorts of help to do so.

lodgepole

smashey wrote:

You can jail all those caught rioting. I have witnessed as much and sometimes much worse general thuggery in other countries. Regarding social problems, they do exist in other countries. Some are worse than ours and some not as bad. As to why this happens, there is always going to be a small element who have no interest in self help or bettering themselves. Correct me if I am wrong here, but is it not the case that if somebody really wants to make something of their life then they will get all sorts of help to do so.

I wasn't that clear in what I wrote. We have a particular social problem which isn't that present outside of Irish or the UK. And it's to do with young men, often women, and their attitudes towards general lawbreaking. It's not as serious as, for example, New York's gang problems but it's more widespread and more out in the open. You only have to go to a large town or city in this country and you'll see it right in front of you.

You're right, if somebody wants to better themselves it's up to them. But why are there so many people in this country who are content with working ****ty jobs (or remaining unemployed) and spending their weekends drinking and causing mayhem? I'd prefer to live in a country where that didn't take place and where everyone tried to better themselves.

smashey

Some people are just plain lazy and have no intention of ever working, even though they know that employment would make for a better lot for them. The State, through the social welfare system keeps them going and they know this is always going to be available to them.

Running Bing

I dont buy this for a second. There are too many opportunites out there today and I believe if you want to make something of yourself you will. Education is very accesible today with programs ranging from plc courses up to programmes in the big universities such as the trinity foundation and access programmes. We also have one of the fairest eductaion systems in the world with the leaving cert being completely anonymous and the same for everyone. As well as this there are plenty of great courses and apprenticeships out there for people who are not interested in school with plenty of scope to make a decent income and even set up a business. I believe in equality of opportunity not equality of outcome i.e. I believe everyone should have equal opportunities not equal living standards.

Degsy

Throughout life in this country you are given every possible chance to better yourself,schooling here is amongst the best in the world and evrybody has more or less the same oppurtunities.If you drop out of school and prefer to drink in the park and write your name on the seats of busses and have kids when you're 14 the system will STILL have you back.If you further choose to go stealing cars and mugging people and writing "rats out" on people's houses the chances are you wont be sent to prison till you're caught about ten times.When y ou're in prison you STILL get a chance to do your leaving cert,WHILE the taxpayer is paying for your board and lodging and your methadone program.When you get out the state will give you somewher to live and pay you money to keep you in john player blue and treat you to the occasional tracksuit if necessary for EVER!THEN people come along and say if you're a criminal its not your fault you were NEVER given a chance!!

smashey

Babybing wrote:

I dont buy this for a second. There are too many opportunites out there today and I believe if you want to make something of yourself you will. Education is very accesible today with programs ranging from plc courses up to programmes in the big universities such as the trinity foundation and access programmes. We also have one of the fairest eductaion systems in the world with the leaving cert being completely anonymous and the same for everyone. As well as this there are plenty of great courses and apprenticeships out there for people who are not interested in school with plenty of scope to make a decent income and even set up a business. I believe in equality of opportunity not equality of outcome i.e. I believe everyone should have equal opportunities not equal living standards.

I expressed a similar sentiment in an earlier post. However I stand by my comment that there will always be people who have no interest in working or bettering themselves no matter what opportunities are available.

Dooom

Eh? It was a riot. It happened so people could break things.
You don't get to do it in everyday life, so they took the most obvious chance they had.


Political expression my ass.

slipss

40miles wrote:

As you may no most of the people that were involved in the riots were Yoths from poor areas of the inner city of dublin
You may think they used the orange men as a excuse to run riot down oconnel street the real reason in my view was a call out for help As this country flourishes these areas are ignored There is a big line between rich and Poor in this country Im my view The so called lower class are the most discrimnated group of people in our society if something is not done about this propblem of the poor youth of dublin you can expect more of these types of riots in the near future

I agree that people from areas with bad names are discriminated against and that probably had a bit to do with thier willingness to riot, but if you want to know why the majority of people there rioted its a combination of the two points below:

1.The Stampede Effect: Like when gazzelle or buffolo in those nature programs are standing in large enough groups, it only takes one or two to suddenly run in a certain direction, then the nearest to them will start to run, and the rest will run with them, I think it's kind of an instinctive response.

2.It's fun to smash things.

Dooom

slipss1 wrote:

The Stampede Effect: Like when gazzelle or buffolo in those nature programs are standing in large enough groups, it only takes one or two to suddenly run in a certain direction, then the nearest to them will start to run, and the rest will run with them, I think it's kind of an instinctive response.

It's more to do with body language IIRC. One of them senses a threat, so shoots off some language through flexing it's tail or whatever, and the others relay it onwards. Then they all scarper off, but stay in a group because it's a harder target to attack.

Animal Planet ftw.

slipss

Spike wrote:

It's more to do with body language IIRC. One of them senses a threat, so shoots off some language through flexing it's tail or whatever, and the others relay it onwards. Then they all scarper off, but stay in a group because it's a harder target to attack.

Animal Planet ftw.

I don't want to get into another of these instincts aguments with some one but body language is instinctual.

Sam Vimes

they did it for the craic and because they have no respect for anything. if they feel they're ignored in society they can march down o'connell street legally like everyone else.

lodgepole

Commander Vimes wrote:

they did it for the craic and because they have no respect for anything.

I'd like to know why they feel that way and how they can be changed.

projectmayhem

40miles wrote:

As you may no most of the people that were involved in the riots were Yoths from poor areas of the inner city of dublin
You may think they used the orange men as a excuse to run riot down oconnel street the real reason in my view was a call out for help As this country flourishes these areas are ignored There is a big line between rich and Poor in this country Im my view The so called lower class are the most discrimnated group of people in our society if something is not done about this propblem of the poor youth of dublin you can expect more of these types of riots in the near future

oh please. they rioted because they could. you talk to the knackers involved and they're not going to waffle about them being "disadvantaged". no one will discriminate if they wash, take off the cap and get a qualification.

these rioters were not discriminated youths protesting the ignorance of their oppressive government. they were throwing rocks at their own police force because they knew they'd get away with it.

what has raiding shoe stores and scaring kids in jervis st. got to do with poverty?

if we can expect more riots then we should pile all these knackers into one ****ty area (leitrum ftw) and nuke the bastard.

the black communities in paris had a reason to riot. they gave their reason, and rioted. are you saying these scummers going into town shouting "the i, the r, the ira" and robbing shops and beating up asians have the same issue as the parisians?

slipss

projectmayhem wrote:

what has raiding shoe stores ... got to do with poverty?

lol

AngryBadger

40miles wrote:

you can expect more of these types of riots in the near future

And if that happens you can rapidly expect more of these thugs to wind up in jail. There's nothing constructive about destroying a major street in Dublin, the people who were injured, or put about by these riots all pay their taxes, all work for what they have, none of them deserved the riots. And if you somehow feel that the state of urban decay justifies this kind of barbaric hooliganism you need to take a check on your perspective.

I appreciate that there are very real problems with inner city areas of dublin, but this kind of response is not solving anything, and frankly if yours is the most enlightened attitude to speak up on the rioters behalf, then i say lock them up, and throw away the key.

toString

I disagree with the original poster's assumption that all the rioting was from people from the "lower class"/"poor". The rioters obviously had enough money to go into the pub on a Saturday morning.

The riots were clearly organised fueled by Sinn Fein rhetoric. There was a belief there by the rioters that these people parading had no right to parade peacefully (which they had). Sinn Fein may have disowned themselves from the riot but history will reveal who caused the riot as well as the attitude within the current supporters of Sinn Fein/IRA.

It's about time the people of this country took back republicanism from Sinn Fein.

Idbatterim

What do people expect we have lower, middle and higher classes here in irelandm, what country dosnt have these 3 classes, and in ireland there are no ultra rich or poor, the so called poor still have accomodation, free health care, dole, child allowance, free education. what else do they want? this country is mostly made of middle class people, ther are not many insanely rich or down and outs, when you work it out as a % of population...

Dave!

Eureka! You should copyright that theory in case someone else takes credit for it...!

pbsuxok1znja4r

Lodgepole wrote:

I'd like to know why they feel that way and how they can be changed.

Their having no respect for anything is not a "feeling", it's possibly the very opposite. Vandals and scumbags are the way they are because they have shit parents, shit friends and shit teachers. In the broad sense of the word, they have no proper education.

Brainless vandals are not made that way by living in underpriveliged areas - they live in shitty areas precisely because they are brainless vandal-types with no real conception of a better way of life, (from a non-material POV).
My two cent - like it or not.

EOA_Mushy

Poor people in dublin dont exist.
They are lazzy(apart from when they want to be violent) and/or idiots.

School is free.
College is free.
Applying for a job is free.

The government give these people:

- houses.
- cloths.
- vans.

God damn it get a bloody job!!!

pbsuxok1znja4r

EOA_Mushy wrote:

The government give these people:

- houses.
- cloths.
- vans.

God damn it get a bloody job!!!

Haha, cloths. All I can think of is loin-cloths.
Apt.

EOA_Mushy

scouser.tommy wrote:

Haha, cloths. All I can think of is loin-cloths.
Apt.

lol
you know what i mean...

Degsy

projectmayhem wrote:

oh please. they rioted because they could. you talk to the knackers involved and they're not going to waffle about them being "disadvantaged". no one will discriminate if they wash, take off the cap and get a qualification.

these rioters were not discriminated youths protesting the ignorance of their oppressive government. they were throwing rocks at their own police force because they knew they'd get away with it.

what has raiding shoe stores and scaring kids in jervis st. got to do with poverty?

if we can expect more riots then we should pile all these knackers into one ****ty area (leitrum ftw) and nuke the bastard.

the black communities in paris had a reason to riot. they gave their reason, and rioted. are you saying these scummers going into town shouting "the i, the r, the ira" and robbing shops and beating up asians have the same issue as the parisians?

And what reason did the "black communities" have to riot?Being "black"?Or because some little scumbag got killed when he was running away from the cops?Does that give evrybody a right to set fire to cars and burn people alive?No it doesnt get a grip on yourself with your right-on rubbish..the people who rioted in france are the same level of scumbags that rioted in dublin,being "black" doesnt give you a licence to behave like an animal/

The OP

The so-called "Lower Class" are the biggest bunch of hypocrites IMO when it comes to the situation in the North - they riot, they curse the "English bastards", etc - yet they do all this while wearing English football jerseys - Liverpool, Man U, etc...

LegacyUser

i'm sick of this "we don't have the same opportunities" bull5hit argument.

just because you're from a disadvantaged area, doesn't mean you can't do well in life.

i wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth and would consider myself working/middle class.

i've worked hard, and now earn good money and own a gaf.

there is a class divide in ireland, and someone who is born with that silver spoon in their mouth, will have it easier, boo hoo, that's life.

they're just angry, begrudgerant, small minded scumbags.

they're a wart on our city, and they're breeding like rabbits.

i think we need stiffer laws, like the 3 strike rule in new york.

The_Minister

40miles wrote:

As you may no most of the people that were involved in the riots were Yoths from poor areas of the inner city of dublin
You may think they used the orange men as a excuse to run riot down oconnel street the real reason in my view was a call out for help As this country flourishes these areas are ignored There is a big line between rich and Poor in this country Im my view The so called lower class are the most discrimnated group of people in our society if something is not done about this propblem of the poor youth of dublin you can expect more of these types of riots in the near future

Bollocks. Utter Bollocks.
They had Celtic jerseys and had spent most of the afternoon drinking €5 pints. Drop the Vincent Brown ****, they have disposable income.

grumpytrousers

I think the slight problem with what a few people here are saying is that they expect 'scumbags' to utilise the same norms, values and rationales as, say, those of us who are NOT scumbags would use. So - for instance - it would seem that most posters here (even the 'lock em up forever' brigade ) are the type of people who believe it completely unacceptable to chuck rocks around the place, whether at the gardai or not. And that's fine. I would whole heartedly agree. But from where did such a belief come from? I can't answer for anybody else, but for myself, I'll say it's the kind of thing that's been with me since I was, oh, this high. (points to low point on ground!) My parents instilled that in me; my da was a low ranking civil servant who did an honest to God nine-to-five, and my mum stayed at home, and did the baking, cleaned the brasses and did the hoovering.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the 1970's in rural Ireland!

The kind of people I went to school with and hung out with all of a similar-ish type. Not posh. Not affected. None of us, for instance, would know the rules of rugby! (not to say that knowing the rules makes you posh, y'understand!)In the run up to the Inter Cert, you worked to get into the good classes for the Leaving, 'cos it was a foregone conclusion that you then wanted to work your arse off to get a good leaving and go to University.

I worked for my leaving cert (and it's funny to think now) not because of any great ambition to be a doctor/lawyer/engineer, but because all my bloody friends were working hard. Heck - you can't doss around on your own THAT much. (Yes I know that's v immature...so sue me!) Headed along to college, and the 18 odd years hanging around with my own 'type' stayed with me. And even now, as hacked off as I get with certain things in this country, I know that the solutions to most problems are to make some attempt at intelligent analysis, and realise that the solutions will NOT always be the quick fixes and will rarely, if ever, win an election for a government.

And lets compare my idyllic childhood with a 'scumbag', shall we? I don't want to get all 'right on, happy clappy' but let's just be brutally analyticial here for a second. You're born in a crap part of town. Your auld fella was a waster. Your mum is a waster. They don't bloody care if you go to school or not. Without the encouragement from within the home, no amount of 'there's loads of opportunities out there' will ever amount to a hill of beans. It's as kids that to a large extent your cards are marked. If you start to hang out with Decko, Micko and Whacker in senior infants, and they're off a similar 'background' to yourself with a similar lack of interest, it's a pretty good bet you'll end up doing no good.

This isn't absolute. There are exceptions - hopefully somebody here will pop up here as evidence of same, but I'll still say they're much in the minority.

The fact of the matter is that you can lock up as many people as you like. As long as 'scumbags' have the perception that they're hard done by, crap like what happened on O'Connell St will happen again. It's all about perception. In the same way that members of certain religious faiths feel slighted at certain cartoons, and the rest of us say "oh for crying out loud", but it's their perception that lends them the viewpoint and, again, our expectation that they would use OUR norms may (or may not be) misplaced.

Locking them all up uses as it's logical cornerstone the notion that prison acts as a deterrent. The fact of the matter is that people getting locked up for 'minor offences' (at least when compared to aggrevated assault, rape etc) tend to become repeat offenders. To be honest, the amount of scumbags out there that need locking up is immense anyway...they probably *would* fill Leitrim. And nudge a bit into Sligo as well...

Christ - that's a long post. Do I have a solution? Do I fúck! I suppose all I'm trying to say is that, like the lads in Trading Places based their entire bet on, nurture comes into it as well. People aren't born as assholes. They become assholes. The trick for us, who consider ourselves *ahem* normal, is to figure out how, and how to stop it...

Degsy

grumpytrousers wrote:

I think the slight problem with what a few people here are saying is that they expect 'scumbags' to utilise the same norms, values and rationales as, say, those of us who are NOT scumbags would use. So - for instance - it would seem that most posters here (even the 'lock em up forever' brigade ) are the type of people who believe it completely unacceptable to chuck rocks around the place, whether at the gardai or not. And that's fine. I would whole heartedly agree. But from where did such a belief come from? I can't answer for anybody else, but for myself, I'll say it's the kind of thing that's been with me since I was, oh, this high. (points to low point on ground!) My parents instilled that in me; my da was a low ranking civil servant who did an honest to God nine-to-five, and my mum stayed at home, and did the baking, cleaned the brasses and did the hoovering.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the 1970's in rural Ireland!

The kind of people I went to school with and hung out with all of a similar-ish type. Not posh. Not affected. None of us, for instance, would know the rules of rugby! (not to say that knowing the rules makes you posh, y'understand!)In the run up to the Inter Cert, you worked to get into the good classes for the Leaving, 'cos it was a foregone conclusion that you then wanted to work your arse off to get a good leaving and go to University.

I worked for my leaving cert (and it's funny to think now) not because of any great ambition to be a doctor/lawyer/engineer, but because all my bloody friends were working hard. Heck - you can't doss around on your own THAT much. (Yes I know that's v immature...so sue me!) Headed along to college, and the 18 odd years hanging around with my own 'type' stayed with me. And even now, as hacked off as I get with certain things in this country, I know that the solutions to most problems are to make some attempt at intelligent analysis, and realise that the solutions will NOT always be the quick fixes and will rarely, if ever, win an election for a government.

And lets compare my idyllic childhood with a 'scumbag', shall we? I don't want to get all 'right on, happy clappy' but let's just be brutally analyticial here for a second. You're born in a crap part of town. Your auld fella was a waster. Your mum is a waster. They don't bloody care if you go to school or not. Without the encouragement from within the home, no amount of 'there's loads of opportunities out there' will ever amount to a hill of beans. It's as kids that to a large extent your cards are marked. If you start to hang out with Decko, Micko and Whacker in senior infants, and they're off a similar 'background' to yourself with a similar lack of interest, it's a pretty good bet you'll end up doing no good.

This isn't absolute. There are exceptions - hopefully somebody here will pop up here as evidence of same, but I'll still say they're much in the minority.

The fact of the matter is that you can lock up as many people as you like. As long as 'scumbags' have the perception that they're hard done by, crap like what happened on O'Connell St will happen again. It's all about perception. In the same way that members of certain religious faiths feel slighted at certain cartoons, and the rest of us say "oh for crying out loud", but it's their perception that lends them the viewpoint and, again, our expectation that they would use OUR norms may (or may not be) misplaced.

Locking them all up uses as it's logical cornerstone the notion that prison acts as a deterrent. The fact of the matter is that people getting locked up for 'minor offences' (at least when compared to aggrevated assault, rape etc) tend to become repeat offenders. To be honest, the amount of scumbags out there that need locking up is immense anyway...they probably *would* fill Leitrim. And nudge a bit into Sligo as well...

Christ - that's a long post. Do I have a solution? Do I fúck! I suppose all I'm trying to say is that, like the lads in Trading Places based their entire bet on, nurture comes into it as well. People aren't born as assholes. They become assholes. The trick for us, who consider ourselves *ahem* normal, is to figure out how, and how to stop it...

Yeah,lock them up.And stop them having babies.Just listen to the way those scrubbers (you see pushing buggies around )talk to thier kids,johnnie blue in mouth.The kids havnt got a chance.

Degsy

grumpytrousers wrote:

I think the slight problem with what a few people here are saying is that they expect 'scumbags' to utilise the same norms, values and rationales as, say, those of us who are NOT scumbags would use. So - for instance - it would seem that most posters here (even the 'lock em up forever' brigade ) are the type of people who believe it completely unacceptable to chuck rocks around the place, whether at the gardai or not. And that's fine. I would whole heartedly agree. But from where did such a belief come from? I can't answer for anybody else, but for myself, I'll say it's the kind of thing that's been with me since I was, oh, this high. (points to low point on ground!) My parents instilled that in me; my da was a low ranking civil servant who did an honest to God nine-to-five, and my mum stayed at home, and did the baking, cleaned the brasses and did the hoovering.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the 1970's in rural Ireland!

The kind of people I went to school with and hung out with all of a similar-ish type. Not posh. Not affected. None of us, for instance, would know the rules of rugby! (not to say that knowing the rules makes you posh, y'understand!)In the run up to the Inter Cert, you worked to get into the good classes for the Leaving, 'cos it was a foregone conclusion that you then wanted to work your arse off to get a good leaving and go to University.

I worked for my leaving cert (and it's funny to think now) not because of any great ambition to be a doctor/lawyer/engineer, but because all my bloody friends were working hard. Heck - you can't doss around on your own THAT much. (Yes I know that's v immature...so sue me!) Headed along to college, and the 18 odd years hanging around with my own 'type' stayed with me. And even now, as hacked off as I get with certain things in this country, I know that the solutions to most problems are to make some attempt at intelligent analysis, and realise that the solutions will NOT always be the quick fixes and will rarely, if ever, win an election for a government.

And lets compare my idyllic childhood with a 'scumbag', shall we? I don't want to get all 'right on, happy clappy' but let's just be brutally analyticial here for a second. You're born in a crap part of town. Your auld fella was a waster. Your mum is a waster. They don't bloody care if you go to school or not. Without the encouragement from within the home, no amount of 'there's loads of opportunities out there' will ever amount to a hill of beans. It's as kids that to a large extent your cards are marked. If you start to hang out with Decko, Micko and Whacker in senior infants, and they're off a similar 'background' to yourself with a similar lack of interest, it's a pretty good bet you'll end up doing no good.

This isn't absolute. There are exceptions - hopefully somebody here will pop up here as evidence of same, but I'll still say they're much in the minority.

The fact of the matter is that you can lock up as many people as you like. As long as 'scumbags' have the perception that they're hard done by, crap like what happened on O'Connell St will happen again. It's all about perception. In the same way that members of certain religious faiths feel slighted at certain cartoons, and the rest of us say "oh for crying out loud", but it's their perception that lends them the viewpoint and, again, our expectation that they would use OUR norms may (or may not be) misplaced.

Locking them all up uses as it's logical cornerstone the notion that prison acts as a deterrent. The fact of the matter is that people getting locked up for 'minor offences' (at least when compared to aggrevated assault, rape etc) tend to become repeat offenders. To be honest, the amount of scumbags out there that need locking up is immense anyway...they probably *would* fill Leitrim. And nudge a bit into Sligo as well...

Christ - that's a long post. Do I have a solution? Do I fúck! I suppose all I'm trying to say is that, like the lads in Trading Places based their entire bet on, nurture comes into it as well. People aren't born as assholes. They become assholes. The trick for us, who consider ourselves *ahem* normal, is to figure out how, and how to stop it...

Yeah,lock them up.And stop them having babies.Just listen to the way those scrubbers (you see pushing buggies around )talk to thier kids,johnnie blue in mouth.The kids havnt got a chance.

Degsy

grumpytrousers wrote:

I think the slight problem with what a few people here are saying is that they expect 'scumbags' to utilise the same norms, values and rationales as, say, those of us who are NOT scumbags would use. So - for instance - it would seem that most posters here (even the 'lock em up forever' brigade ) are the type of people who believe it completely unacceptable to chuck rocks around the place, whether at the gardai or not. And that's fine. I would whole heartedly agree. But from where did such a belief come from? I can't answer for anybody else, but for myself, I'll say it's the kind of thing that's been with me since I was, oh, this high. (points to low point on ground!) My parents instilled that in me; my da was a low ranking civil servant who did an honest to God nine-to-five, and my mum stayed at home, and did the baking, cleaned the brasses and did the hoovering.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the 1970's in rural Ireland!

The kind of people I went to school with and hung out with all of a similar-ish type. Not posh. Not affected. None of us, for instance, would know the rules of rugby! (not to say that knowing the rules makes you posh, y'understand!)In the run up to the Inter Cert, you worked to get into the good classes for the Leaving, 'cos it was a foregone conclusion that you then wanted to work your arse off to get a good leaving and go to University.

I worked for my leaving cert (and it's funny to think now) not because of any great ambition to be a doctor/lawyer/engineer, but because all my bloody friends were working hard. Heck - you can't doss around on your own THAT much. (Yes I know that's v immature...so sue me!) Headed along to college, and the 18 odd years hanging around with my own 'type' stayed with me. And even now, as hacked off as I get with certain things in this country, I know that the solutions to most problems are to make some attempt at intelligent analysis, and realise that the solutions will NOT always be the quick fixes and will rarely, if ever, win an election for a government.

And lets compare my idyllic childhood with a 'scumbag', shall we? I don't want to get all 'right on, happy clappy' but let's just be brutally analyticial here for a second. You're born in a crap part of town. Your auld fella was a waster. Your mum is a waster. They don't bloody care if you go to school or not. Without the encouragement from within the home, no amount of 'there's loads of opportunities out there' will ever amount to a hill of beans. It's as kids that to a large extent your cards are marked. If you start to hang out with Decko, Micko and Whacker in senior infants, and they're off a similar 'background' to yourself with a similar lack of interest, it's a pretty good bet you'll end up doing no good.

This isn't absolute. There are exceptions - hopefully somebody here will pop up here as evidence of same, but I'll still say they're much in the minority.

The fact of the matter is that you can lock up as many people as you like. As long as 'scumbags' have the perception that they're hard done by, crap like what happened on O'Connell St will happen again. It's all about perception. In the same way that members of certain religious faiths feel slighted at certain cartoons, and the rest of us say "oh for crying out loud", but it's their perception that lends them the viewpoint and, again, our expectation that they would use OUR norms may (or may not be) misplaced.

Locking them all up uses as it's logical cornerstone the notion that prison acts as a deterrent. The fact of the matter is that people getting locked up for 'minor offences' (at least when compared to aggrevated assault, rape etc) tend to become repeat offenders. To be honest, the amount of scumbags out there that need locking up is immense anyway...they probably *would* fill Leitrim. And nudge a bit into Sligo as well...

Christ - that's a long post. Do I have a solution? Do I fúck! I suppose all I'm trying to say is that, like the lads in Trading Places based their entire bet on, nurture comes into it as well. People aren't born as assholes. They become assholes. The trick for us, who consider ourselves *ahem* normal, is to figure out how, and how to stop it...

Yeah,lock them up.And stop them having babies.Just listen to the way those scrubbers (you see pushing buggies around )talk to thier kids,johnnie blue in mouth.The kids havnt got a chance.

Permian-Poster

The riots represent the first time in living
memory that the very poorest and most marginalised elements in Irish
society expressed themselves politically, undirected as it may have
been. The 'scumbags' will have experienced this as a great victory -
they stopped the 'orange bastards' from marching, they took on the
guards en masse and won - they controlled the city centre for several
hours on a Saturday afternoon and many of them will have experienced
this as an intensely empowering demonstration of their worth. In
future the government may have to reckon with this sector as a
political force - rioting is often empowering for the marginalised and
can easily spread and the government will want to take great pains to
discourage that. I think it is highly unlikely that the government
will be at all keen to repeat the disaster of the loyalist march and
risk providing a chance for this anger to express itself again.
Unfortunately, however, it is very difficult to turn such destructive
expressions of anger into constructive channels. While the most
marginalised elements of the working class woke up on Sunday morning
with a new appreciation of their collective power, they still lack any
constructive way of expressing this and until that avenue presents
itself, it is unlikely to lead to any political force that can lead
towards lasting change.

All of the political groupings in the south bar some of the republican
fringes and the anarchists will condemn these riots in the harshest
terms. Indeed within hours, the state's politicians were queuing up to
express their outrage and 'anger' at the events. But what is the point
of reacting to anger with anger? What use is anger against people who
don't give a f#ck and who don't have anything to lose? There is a
French anarchist saying that goes "Qui sème la misère récolte la
colère" – "he who sows misery, harvests anger". On Saturday February
25th 2006, we saw the first harvest of our Celtic Tiger and chances
are that it won't be the last.

(originally posted elsewhere)

SprostonGreen

40miles wrote:

As you may no most of the people that were involved in the riots were Yoths from poor areas of the inner city of dublin
You may think they used the orange men as a excuse to run riot down oconnel street the real reason in my view was a call out for help As this country flourishes these areas are ignored There is a big line between rich and Poor in this country Im my view The so called lower class are the most discrimnated group of people in our society if something is not done about this propblem of the poor youth of dublin you can expect more of these types of riots in the near future

This is a terrible post, not just for content but also for punctuation.