Waterford North Quays

Flow Motion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000735#Comment_122000735

Have a glance back. This particular thread began on the 18.11.04. Almost 20yrs ago. Nothing much happened till last September. Sometimes you have to cease living in a dream world. Face reality. Enjoy the new road. The new train station. And a new pedestrian bridge. That is gonna be the sum total of any development on those docks. A quasi cycle path from Dungarvan to New Ross. Leave the WCCC to blitz the media with the promise of a sustainable city. Dont forget there's gonna be a GE in the next 12 months. Sinn Fein will bring a different set of ideas. Central government can turn off the funds at any point. Commitment or not. Waterford is not a priority. Never has been since the inception of the State. Never bothered to assist the Glass when it began to crumble. Promises of a University for decades, and when they relented they only went an made every other IT a TU. Go visit any of the other major Irish cities and see for yourselves how far we are behind. They are the priority. Waterford is not.

gw80

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001018#Comment_122001018

I agree with you about priority,

I think myself that at some stage during the last recession a policy of there were only 3 maybe 4 city's in ireland and only they would get the attention and investment

It was already there before that but I think the recession really put the final nail in Waterford,s coffin as being treated as any of the other city's in ireland

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000735#Comment_122000735

echo, echo…..

no chips here, just serious concern like everybody else here, including yourself, we re clearly making serious mistakes in regards our most critical of needs, both current and future, its clearly obvious our political system isnt actually resourced or even aware of these needs, and that goes for the opposition to. we re all entitled to our opinions here, and we should all respect differences in those opinions, and that goes for me to, ive no right to discredit others opinions, but we should all be as respectful as possible in debates

many of my own opinions as actually based on well respected commentators and their research, some academic based, some not so

by all means challenge me on my thoughts, thats actually encourages healthy debate, but try to discredit me or be condescending towards me, be prepared for you to be told, get fcuked….

Cabaal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997797#Comment_121997797

and yet cities like Paris are pushing bikes above cars in 2024. its almost like your excuses for it being the 1970s are meaingless. 🤣

You said cars are less time consuming then the alternative, I've given you an example within Waterford City and I note you ignore it.

But sure I'll give you a few examples of the use of my bike:
- Drop our kid to creche then a 10mile onward journey (only 45min cycle) to meet family member for lunch, park within metres of resturant. Head home later in the day and drop into Woodies where I picked up 1x bag of wood chip (15KG) and 1x bag of potting compost (20kg) and headed home. Picked up kid on way home where I dropped in for milk and bread in the local shop.

- 2mile spin to parents where I dropped an air fryer and 4 large bags of logs for stove. Headed home and picked up kid on the way, slight detour to shop where I did the full weeks shop for the household and returned deposit bottles/cans.

- Even locally in very, very light traffic I can beat a car to the other side of town. If I goto Kilkenny or Waterford I will beat any car on busy streets easily.

So to answer your question, yes multple people from a household could travel. My bike can actually carry upto 4 young kids. Older kids and adults would of course cycle their own bike. Will it suit everyone, no of course not but it would suit a hell of a lot of people.

One thing you ignore from your little challenge is the hard reality of car travel. Most cars feature 1 person and no passangers and approx 50% of car journeys in Ireland are 5km or less….perfect distance for a bike.,

Deiseen

I love getting out on the bike by myself or with the family as much as I can but it is complete fantasy to think that this kind of travel is suited to any more than about 1% of the population with families.

In Winter time even less so when all you'll see is fit mad young men out in the miserable weather battling through the elements.

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001891#Comment_122001891

can you post a picture of your bike please. I’m intrigued by your post….but don’t actually think you are being honest with the claims you are making….but maybe I’m reading it wrongly/misinterpreting it…?

GandhiwasfromBallyfermot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003115#Comment_122003115

I'm pretty sure Cabaal uses an e-cargo bike, a very impressive piece of kit and absolutely capable of the claims he makes above.

Cabaal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003089#Comment_122003089

and yet Netherlands and changes in both London and Paris show that if you build safe, inclusive infrustrure you'll get people of all ages and abilities out on bikes. Far more then the 1% you claim 🙄

In Netherlands 36% of Dutch people list the bicycle as their most frequent way of getting around, cycling has a modal share of 27% of all trips (urban and rural) nationwide.

Over 24% of 65+ cycle and 35% of 0-15 years of age. 75% of school kids cycle to school in Netherlands

By comparison only a pitiful 3% cycle to school in Ireland. People fight the very idea of more people cycling but what they are actually doing is fighting to have MORE traffic congestion. the more people cycling the less traffic congestion we have. Imagine if we even had 30-40% LESS car traffic to/from schools at rush hour, it would be a game changer.

As for the elements, maybe twice since August have I not cycled because of the weather and thats including orange storm warnings. Rain isn't a big deal when you have proper rain gear (rain pants are a game changer on a bike). I actually find it sort of amusing that grown adults are scared of some rain when even my kid can manage just fine in it.

Cabaal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003839#Comment_122003839

Spot on,
Its well capable of what I do with it and mine isn't even as capable of other cargobikes which can carry far more weight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003115#Comment_122003115

Sure thing,
Its a cargobike so its well capable of the jobs I use it for, its best to think of it less of a bike and more of a car replacement due to its ability to carry heavy loads. In my case it saves the very large expense of our household having a second car.

It's an e-assist cargobike so I have to cycle for the motor to kick in and the motor only assists up until 25km/hour. Its road legal due to this under current and upcoming legislation and doesn't require tax or insurance even under upcoming legislation.

Its a two wheeled cargobike so it can fit into most places that a normal bike can, it also steers like a normal bike for the most part. When I got mine I knew of nobody else with one in Kilkenny, since then a few other people have got them all with kids and they use it in similar ways to mine.

My bike can carry two kids on a seat but a second seat can be installed to enable it to carry 4, it can carry 80kg of cargo in the box at the front and another 40kg on the rear rack if I had to.

Bike also has two different rain covers, one that just covers the box at the front and another that can completely cover passangers and totally protect them from the rain (I rarely use it as its not raining enough to warrant it)

Here's the cargobike carrying another bike after I cycled to Waterford to drop it in for a service, I used the folding bike to spin down to the train after and then used it again when the train arrived in Kilkenny. Folding bikes are great fun in heavy traffic, I was lucky to get a loan of it from a neighbour and I have to say I'm tempted buy my own now!

This is one of the larger items I've carried, something most cars would even struggle to carry. Aldi staff member asked if I had a van to take it, he seemed confused when I said I had a bike 😂. (I've since invested in more ratched straps for securing loads)

Finally, here's it carrying a kid, some shopping, lunch, general stuff and a balance bike.

I'd point out that most people likely don't need a cargobike, they certainly have their uses and they are becoming extremely popular with delivery companys to complete last mile deliveries in cities and also with families with smaller kids.

Anytime I've been in Dublin in the last two years I've spotted one or two and when I was in London last year for three days I also spotted a few. They are a very normal sight in places like Amsterdam, when I was there in 2012 I spotted a a few but now they are everywhere!.

I say most people don't need a cargobike because panniers (bags on the back rack) will actually carry what most people need to carry.

For years I'd never have put panniers on any bike I had and instead (stupidly) opted for backpacks but panniers are game changers when it comes to carrying shopping and other stuff.

Will a bike do every trip? Of course not, its not going to do a trip to ikea but then even the avg car sucks for trips to ikea and vans are better. It's all about picking the best tool for the job and cars are mostly overkill for short trips….and very, very expensive overkill at that.

Valhalla90

One thing for sure is Fine Gael has been detrimental to Waterford. Hopefully they will be gone next election and so what of a change in fortunes can come about.

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003888#Comment_122003888

I'm not afraid of the weather. I have run and cycled in rain, snow, ice and gale force winds. But I am not everyone and you can't expect people to do this no matter how much gear they have on.

Also, comparing Ireland to the Netherlands is ridiculous. The Netherlands is 42,000km², has a population density of 522 per km² has a public transport & infrastructure system that we will never have and the weather is better.

Ireland is 85,000km², has a population density of 71 per km², has a public transport system not fit for purpose and has such awful awful weather.

And before you say the weather is comparable:

Waterford gets about 30% more rain than Amsterdam and the wind speeds are about 10-20% more on average.

London also a bad example. It is simply not comparable to somewhere like Waterford. 5,598 people per km², Waterford gets double the rainfall and has 15-25% higher average wind speeds.

Paris the same. Density is 20,000 per km², Waterford has 30% higher average wind speeds and around double the rain.

Also once again, i don't mind cycling whatever the weather. I go downhill mountain biking and have come out completely covered in mud from head to toe but you cannot expect many people to feel the same.

That bike is some job by the way.

Cabaal

The biggest issue with weather and people in Ireland is we are really awful at dressing for it. Vast majority don't own a really good proper rain jacket and next to nobody owns rain pants, over shoes etc.

Because they don't have a actual proper rain jacket when they do go out they get soaked through and then think the weather is awful and nobody can walk or cycle in it. A proper jacket and rain pants are very important and are fairly normal in other europeon countrys like Germany.

The weather is really just an excuse,

I'll pickup on one specific comment above:

Ireland….has a public transport system not fit for purpose.

and we'll continue to have this as long as we prioritize cars above all else.

Again as I've said above, more people cycling in citys and towns means less traffic….yet we have people fighting both this and the downgrading of priority to cars. (Bus gate changes starting to come into Dublin in August).

For decades we've spent billions on infrastructure that gives space to cars and makes our roads (both rural and urban) hostile to anything but cars and that does need to be rebalanced, that can only occur by taking space away from cars and giving priority to other means of getting around.

hardybuck

If people only read this thread they'd forget that €207m of public funding has been approved for the Quays project, around €27m of which is to fund active travel projects in the area. Even when stuff is under construction it just seems that people can't see the positives and feel good about things.

I think a lot of people in Waterford have always considered Ferrybank as a separate place they didn't really know very well, somewhere else that you'd rarely go to unless you maybe were playing a match, and in that scenario you'd be dreading the traffic involved in crossing the bridge.

That's reflective of the disconnection between Ferrybank and the rest of the city, and that awkward trip across Rice Bridge to get there and back. I genuinely believe even the bridge project alone (never mind the rest of the offices, hotel, apartments etc.) will really rejuvenate Ferrybank, and all of a sudden it'll be much quicker to get from there to town than many other parts of the city.

You'd want to be a brave and experienced cyclist to countenance cycling down that dual carriage way and over the bridge at the moment. The level aggression and poor driving on that roundabout at the bridge is particularly bad. The same goes for pedestrians - it's a very unpleasant walking route. At least now people might be in a position to cycle or walk across a much shorter and safer path across the river.

Cabaal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004873#Comment_122004873

The whole project, train station move, greenway link up and bridge are really fantastic, I can only assume the comment about about FG having done nothing for Waterford is sarcasm given the many benefits this project will bring. It wouldn't happen without gov support at the end of the day.

As for Ferrybank dual-carriage way, its a sh*tshow.

When coming from Kilkenny with the cargobike I take the footpath when both approaching and leaving Waterford until I hit the Newrath Roundabout. (I'd take the road on a road bike). That section of road is an awful section to walk and cycle and its far worse on the Ferrybank side. Its actually a hostile design to pedestrians and cyclists, as is the Rice Bridge crossing, very unpleasant as you said.

When you're cocooned in a car disconnected from the experience you simply don't realise how hostile the whole design is to people coming off the train, the speed people drive at (regularly breaking the speed limit).

I'll take the roundabout on a bike, but I've had some completely idiotic behaviour over the years including people overtaking me on the roundabout even though I'm taking the lane. Just outright trying to kill me.

The new bridge will completely change this, you'll see far more people cycling into town or using scooters as it'll be more pleasant and safer to do so.

Dum_Dum_2

Simple question:

Why does a bridge linking the town and it's bus station not carry buses?

Asdfgh2020

If hydrogen fuelled vehicles becomes the norm in the decades ahead and the hydrogen itself is produced via renewable energy (splitting water molecule by electrolysis or some other method) will everyone revert back to private cars…?

Asdfgh2020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003939#Comment_122003939

Do you regularly commute to waterford from Kk on the above cargo bike….? If so how long does it take you….?

JohnC.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122005710#Comment_122005710

Because the town and the bus station are on the same side of the river?

spaceCreated

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122005357#Comment_122005357

Ignoring the rest, what has Fine Gael done for Waterford in the last say decade?

Agreed on how dangerous cycling on the roads is, pity the Government doesnt try and actually implement safe, separate cycle lanes and ticket cars parking in the unsafe ones we do have.

JohnC.

The government doesn't ticket cars. You need to see the traffic wardens and Gardai for that.

spaceCreated

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122008438#Comment_122008438

JC, so when people say the government need to build a hospital they dont expect Michael Martin to throw on the high viz and start laying blocks… explaining because you do come across as being a bit …

Anyway, if they were to implement a policy and resource it with traffic wardens whereby any offenders were consistently penalized it would go a long way in to improving road safety.

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122007676#Comment_122007676

I think these kind of projects are driven by those sitting around the Council table - and in fairness there has been a big push from the Council over the last few years (I think Michael Walsh is there 10 years and his time in the role must be due to finish soon).

22% of the Waterford City and County Council is FG. Within the city wards only two of the 18 Councillors are FG - and one of those is from Tramore. There's also been no FG TD in the City since 1982 either.

I'm not a cyclist but it looks to me (as a motorist) like there's been a lot more cycling infrastructure gone in since the last local elections in 2019. A lot more to do as that old slogan goes!

Bards

Any chance of a mod to move the non related NQ chat to a different chat?

Back to NQ topic.. This is quiet interesting

A pertinent quote from the link below

“It was also great to be taken through the visuals of the Harcourt Development plans for the site which will consist of over 350 apartments, hotel and conference centre, aparthotel, ground floor retail/food/beverage offer and the first office block in phase one. These plans are expected to be submitted in early April and due to the SDZ designation, I would expect the green light to be given to the plans within eight weeks."

https://www.johncumminswaterford.ie/post/minister-donohoe-examines-progress-on-170-million-north-quays-infrastructure-project

hardybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009097#Comment_122009097

Active travel is a core element of the North Quays project.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004401#Comment_122004401

Waterford city is tiny and flat, you can cycle from the centre to the end of the urban area in any direction in 15 minutes, it's absolutely not comparable to moutain biking in the mud. It is also fully bypassed, there is no need for through car trips, all it's missing is proper cycle junctions and bike lanes.

Dublin will eliminate through car trips in the city centre in August, expect all other cities and towns to follow shortly. A bus gate on the Waterford south quays and conversion of the car park there to a pedestrian space would make it a much nicer place to be.

Deiseen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009145#Comment_122009145

I'm not comparing it to cycling in the mud. I am simply saying I don't mind cycling in bad weather while most would mind.

Waterford is not flat. The centre is flat but as you said the centre is small. It is uphill going almost every direction out of the city.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009209#Comment_122009209

There are very few serious gradients. Dublin is way more hilly even in the centre and has a much higher proportion of commute by bike.

Cabaal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122005944#Comment_122005944

I don't work in Waterford so I rarely communte, just now and then do I take a trip down. It takes roughly 2hrs and I've done it both day and night. Outside of the odd idiot driving I've not felt unsafe once I pass the Newrath Roundabout.

I do cycle into Kilkenny with the young lad regular enough to goto castle park etc and it takes about 45min ish.

When I got the bike I had planned to regularly get the train down and then use bike for trips to Tramore, Dungarven etc, but then I found out that unlike the Cork/Dublin line the Waterford line doesn't have a guards carriage so it cannot take anything the size of a cargobike.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122007676#Comment_122007676

So you are ignoring the big development? Seems weird.

Gov has made funding available for active travel ( thanks to greens), but many councils have in my view mis-spent this money on basically resurfacing roads and fixing footpaths rather then doing what they should be doing. Some councils (looking at Galway) haven't done a tap with the money.

Ticketing people parking isn't down to gov, thats down to council and gardai. Total lack of enforcement, thats not just parking thats speeding, mobile phone use etc. Thats why we have so much death on our roads.

Proper cycle lanes and proper safe pedestrian access is importannt but you see how much people bitch and moan about anything that even slightly delays them.

Look at Farronshoneen Roundabout for example, a positive improvement that makes it far safer for pedestrians but it got a lot of hate….easy know most people don't walk the area as its fairly hostile to pedestrians.

Personally I think the quays layout should be changed, keep one lane for traffic in either direction and then have a two way wider cycle lane with curb/bollards. Emergency services can use the cycle lane if they need to bypass the traffic. It's win win.

Newtown and other areas etc need to have bus lanes/cycle lanes that don't allow parking in them. Manor Street is about the best Waterford has outside of the greenway at present.

North quays dev with the bridge should vastly improve things, I'll await to see what they do with the city side when its finished but I don't have my hopes up.

spaceCreated

"Ticketing people parking isn't down to gov, thats down to council and gardai. Total lack of enforcement, thats not just parking thats speeding, mobile phone use etc. Thats why we have so much death on our roads."

Yeah I expanded on my comment to explain that to someone else being facetious.

("Anyway, if they were to implement a policy and resource it with traffic wardens whereby any offenders were consistently penalized it would go a long way in to improving road safety.")

At the end of the day its policy and resourcing, quite a lot of the traffic monitoring could be very easily automated which is all pushed or not pushed by the Government. Also, people are just gone noticeable more aggressive on the roads at least imo… lately I regularly see cars speed up if another driver makes a mistake as if to hit them which is the reverse of how people should drive.

Ignoring what big development? The north quays that still has a few more years left to run?… so one "big" investment every 15-20 years is delivering? The only thing that makes it "big" is its relative size compared to sweet fk all. Look to any other region in this country and you see massive amounts invested. 170 million over 20 years or so? it would be a sub heading on some of the stuff everywhere else seems to get.

You can harp on about Fine Gael delivering this and that but at the end of the day all anyone sees is a lot of promises, the WIT being hollowed out and one "big development" that builds some flats and moves the stations around, and its roughly 8.5 million a year of capital investment? The development is decent but kind of a common sense development you could say

Dexpat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009097#Comment_122009097

Yeah quite a lot of unrelated content here lately.

It certainly seems significant that Harcourt are almost ready to unveil the plans for phase one of the commercial element. The end of year deadline was very arbitrary. It's important to get it right based on the current environment rather than sticking to an artificial deadline.

It will be good to see plans finally.