Would you wear a poppy?

WhiteWashMan

Eriugena wrote:

How the hell do you think the problems we face can be resolved unless you first of all know what those problems are?

oh, i never said that people shouldnt know, but i also feel theres a big difference between knowing the past, and moving on from it, and living in it.

and what you are doing is living in it, and trying to make others live in it.

i mean, we could go back further and talk about how the irish used to raid wales and england. how esle did st patrick get to ireland?
he didnt fly ryanair...

how far would you like to go back, or is it only wise to tell the stories that you want to tell, to shine i lite on the heroics of those who fell fighting for a free ireland, and to darken those who blighted irish history with tyranny and opression?

or would you have us compare like for like, every tit for tat murder between republican and unionist over the last 40 years?

do you feel that if you come up one murder less then its a moral victory for a deserving republican cause, and that those british bástards up the north should leave. or do you feel like so many people in ireland, that enough is enough, and continuing to count the tally of dead thought irelands history is a waste of time, and that perhaps pulling the people of northern ireland together into a cohesive community is probably better?

persaonlly, i like the idea of people coming together, regardless of what has happened.
but all i ever see to be honest, is pro IRA and hardline republicanists bring up the past as some cynical attempt to restart the hatred towards the english people. lets face it, the people in northern ireland, are northern irish now, whether you like it or not. the bigorty and racism of a few people is all that still fires people up, and hopefully, eventually that will die out, i hope.

Eriugena

WhiteWashMan wrote:

oh, i never said that people shouldnt know, but i also feel theres a big difference between knowing the past, and moving on from it, and living in it.

What is the difference between the past and the present? Each moment is always passing away into the past. The moment I started this reply is as much past as the Norman invasion. The future is ahead of us, but it is shaped on the basis of who and what we are which is always the past. The past determines the kind of future we can make. History is important for understanding the prsent and therefore the future, which is the realm of the possible

and what you are doing is living in it, and trying to make others live in it.

Oh please, I have heard this mindless cliche about a million times.

i mean, we could go back further and talk about how the irish used to raid wales and england. how esle did st patrick get to ireland?
he didnt fly ryanair...

Except that such events do not significantly bear on the present. But the events of the period 1916-23, for example, have largely determined the political present and forseeable future of Ireland.
If you study Irish history you will soon realise that it has been a long term British interest to maintain dominance over Ireland, either directly or hegemonically, as they do now. The whole trajectory of Irish history centres on the struggle by them to exert this dominion over this island and by us to oppose it. How it has been opposed ranges from plain physical force (fenianism) to the purely political (e.g. Parnell) and sometimes a mixture of the two. History is about understanidng this struggle - from both sides - in order to, from the Irish point of view, bring it to a conclusion which favours us, not them. There is no room or need for hatred in any of this, just because an other is the enemy does not mean you have to hate them. In fact hatred only blinds reason which of course helps the enemy becasue when reason is blind, mistakes are made.

WhiteWashMan

Eriugena wrote:

Oh please, I have heard this mindless cliche about a million times.

really? then perhaps the million people saying know something you dont?

look, all im hearing is that anything anyone says that you dont agree with is 'mindless cliches',

and;

anything you say is relevant, but anything i mention about it, is irrelevant.

so there isnt much point in negotiating.


you talk about blinding and reasoning.

dont try and blind the ordinary persons of ireland into believing you are being reasonable. you have allied yourself to an outlawed republican movement that has little support in the irish republic.
and while i have no interest in whether you are invovled personally in an armed struggle, or are just some believer in 'the cause' is of no interest to me.
the fact is you have no interest in a common goal of the people. you have said that you dont care as long as you win. thats not an attitude of forgiveness, of compassion, or of equality. and it doesnt lend itself to believing your arguements are worth reasoning with.

but of course, this is all mindless cliches, not dissimilar to the likes ive heard from replublican militants before.

but for the purpose of this thread, with regards to poppy's, if i have change at the checkout of a shop, and they are selling one, i will buy one, becuase i believe the poppy is a symbol of great catastrophe, and its a recognition of those who died, regardless of faith, of nationality or of colour.
im not small minded enough to try and make it an issue of some other trouble, or use it as an excuse to put some poorly constructed arguements across to incite some good old fashion brit bashing.

Eriugena

WhiteWashMan wrote:

really? then perhaps the million people saying know something you dont?

The parroting of a cliche is nothing more than that.

look, all im hearing is that anything anyone says that you dont agree with is 'mindless cliches',

Nonsense. Cliches are cliches, and I've heard that one so many times its beyond boring.

anything you say is relevant, but anything i mention about it, is irrelevant.

That's not true; if what you said was irrelevant I would not have wasted time responding to you.

so there isnt much point in negotiating.

Negotiating? I wasn't aware we were negotiating anything. I thought I was just having a little discussion, all nice and civilised like.

dont try and blind the ordinary persons of ireland into believing

Stop soap-boxing - I have as much right to express my views as you do.

you are being reasonable. you have allied yourself to an outlawed republican movement that has little support in the irish republic.

I have allied myself to nothing. You should take care about what you accuse people of.

and while i have no interest in whether you are invovled personally in an armed struggle, or are just some believer in 'the cause' is of no interest to me.

Then why do you make such a slanderous allegation?

the fact is you have no interest in a common goal of the people.

You don't know what I'm intersted in and you have no right to claim that you do.

you have said that you dont care as long as you win.

I never said anything of the kind. I said that Britain's interests are opposed to Ireland's as far as this island goes. Anyone with even a nodding acquaintance of Irish history can see that.

WhiteWashMan

i'm sure we could sit here all day and pick at each others arguements, but since i have said what i wasnted to say, andyou have already heard it al lbefore. i wont continue to bore you.
however, while it is not relevant to this thread, i would be interested to hear what Britains interests are with regards this island. it being made up of two seperate political countries and all.

but it is a start. you have used the present tense. and every journey starts with a small single step

true

Eriugena wrote:

It never ceases to amaze and disgust me to see Irish people so vehemently defending their former masters..

They were never former masters to me. They gave good employment to people I personally know, and in previous centuries built roads, railways, canals, universities, a court system , harbours etc - all state of the art stuff in the world at the time. The British, in fairness to them are looked on worldwide as a very fair and tolerant people. They were among the first to abolish slavery, they had better human rights than Europe during the inquisitions when hundreds of thousands were tortured and killed for their faith , and during conflicts have a record of upholding the geneva convention unsurpassed by an country in the world. OK it was an imperialist power, but so was practically every other country in Europe at the time.

Eriugena wrote:

That's because the IRA were patriots who brought this state into existence. You really are very confused..

I am not confused : I was point out a fact to you which to fail to appreciate.

Eriugena wrote:

What is your point? Its always a minority who do the right thing. .

Like in Omagh? Enniskillen, Le Mons, Bloody Friday ? It is always a minority who do the right thing ?
If you answer the qurestion you will see the point. How many rebels were there in 1916 , compared to over 200,000 who volunteered to serve in British uniforms ?If you answer the qurestion you will see the point. How many rebels were there in 1916 , compared to over 200,000 who volunteered to serve in British uniforms.

Eriugena wrote:

Wrong war; do try and pay attention. .

No, you were trying to argue that WW1 was not Germanys fault , it was all those nasty Brits and French. But anyway....

Eriugena wrote:

Britain and France declared war on Germany in September 1939, so the French canhardly coplain if the Germans then invaded them, now can they?
.

Britain declared war on Germany in early Sept 1939 unless Germany withdrew from a territory it invaded. Germany did not and war was declared. Did you not see Germanys actions towards its neighbours before this, indeed Germanys actions towards its Jewish citizens. Was the writing not on the wall. I think Eriugena must be the only nutcase in the whole world who thinks WW2 in Europe was not Germanys fault.

Eriugena wrote:

The slave is he one who defends his former master and condemns patriots. This country is all too full of your likes.

LOL. I am not a slave, I do not regard the UK of the 21st century as former masters and when did I condemn "patriots" in this thread. Patriots to me are people who have defended democracy. Defended against the threat to democracy in Europe in WW2 , and more recently and closer to home those people on this island ( like Garda McCabe ) who defend Irish democracy from your fellow travellers.

Eriugena wrote:

Roosevelt was secretly plannig war against Germany whilst lying to the American public and talking peace - this is all very well documented. He told the Poles that the US would back them by entering the war after France and Britain were involved. Of course they were supplying the British with arms before their entry ito the war, this, and various other acts of war compelled the Germans to declare against them after the Japanese and the US went to war. .

Rubbish. "secretly plannig war" - what is the difference between this and keeping your military forces updated for all eventualities, as America continues to strive to do. The British were manufacturing their own arms before the war. And the "Japanese and US did not go to war" : Japan attacked America at Pearl harbour.

Eriugena wrote:

The result of the war was that Britain was totally bankrupt and had to give up its empire as a condition for receiving aid from the Americans. .

LOL. If it gave up its empire do you recognise that N. I. is not "oppressed and occupied " You cant have it both ways. And Britain giving up its empire had nothing to do with the Americans , and it did not happen just after WW2 ended.

Eriugena wrote:

Half of Europe was given over to Soviet slavery for 40 years..

It was not "given over" to Russia, it was taken. Not that the Republic of Ireland did much to oppose this "Soviet slavery for 40 years" as you call it , during the cold war. It was the Brits and US, among others.

Eriugena wrote:

This is, in brief, how the Americans achieved their present status as world imperial power.

LOL LOL LOL You should be on telly, it would be a great comedy sketch. I can see it now : please welcome , Eriugena....

StupidLikeAFox

Um, to the gentleman who said britain were civilised in warfare, i dont think so. They destroyed the zulus, they were known for killing guys who didnt have their army hats on (sentenced to death penalty for misconduct i believe) and their officers are long understood to be general cruel bastards. Sure, im not gonna hold it against them all my life, coz as WWM says that would be living in the past, but still, it wasnt v.nice.

And to ge back on topic, i just feel the poppy is commemorating something which has nothing to do with me. To me, it would be like commemorating the American war of independance. Hunt me down and kill me if ya like, but thats just my take on things

true

ColHol wrote:

Um, to the gentleman who said britain were civilised in warfare, i dont think so. They destroyed the zulus,

Practically every other European country was engaged in the race for colonies in Africa at the time. The English and Boers did not "destroy" the zulus.

ColHol wrote:

they were known for killing guys who didnt have their army hats on (sentenced to death penalty for misconduct i believe)

You mean their helmets? Really? Could you provide me with a link to that please. I would love to know out of the millions of servicemen over the years how many were shot for this offence.

ColHol wrote:

and their officers are long understood to be general cruel bastards.

Surely a generalisation, and based on what ? As someone who knows someone quite well who served under "Monty" in WW2, I can assure you the troops there respected and admired this officer. Perhaps if you looked at how some other armies treated their troops , you might understand better eg some Russian officers in WW2.
The British were generally fairly treated as pows and vice versa. Name any other country in WW2 that treated their prisoners more fairly than the British.

StupidLikeAFox

Do you honestly think i just pluck things from the sky? I said generally understood, i didnt say all. Maybe i am wrong, but i dont actually care. Im just putting forward what i feel to be te general consensus.
As regards the hat thing, there was a documentary on BBC around october maybe, which showed the case of an irishman (in the british army) who was court martialled because he wasnt wearing a beret or something. He was sentenced to death. Now im well aware that one act cant be used to tar the whole behaviour of the british army, but it does give a major insight into the type of people which were in power.

''and their officers are long understood to be general cruel bastards''
Yes, this is the general impression. Note the word GENERAL, nothing set in stone like. And it aint from reading an poblacht either.

And why the hell are you so quick to shoot down my post? i was just expressing a goddam opinion

WhiteWashMan

ColHol wrote:

Do you honestly think i just pluck things from the sky?

ColHol wrote:

Im just putting forward what i feel to be te general consensus.

???????????
:rolleyes:

we could all put forward what we believe, but its better to deal in facts.

ColHol wrote:

which showed the case of an irishman (in the british army) who was court martialled because he wasnt wearing a beret or something.

so actually, you arent sure about it, except he was an irishman.
so really, it was a racially motivated courtmartialing?
but, at the same time, youre not sure?

im confused as to what any of this has to do with anything!

ColHol wrote:

And why the hell are you so quick to shoot down my post? i was just expressing a goddam opinion

because you are not offering an opinion, you providing unsubstanciated and inaccurate (by your own admission) evidence, which is not useful or helpful.

StupidLikeAFox

Meh, i was tired. And i didnt feel like putting effort into the post when it didnt have anything to do with the poppy business.

Dyr

Interesting to see people who claim wear poppies solely out the deep respect they have for irish men and women who apparently saved this country from foreign opprssion during World War 2. One would presume that these people also enthusiastically celebrate veterans day in memory of all the irish who died in the service of the United States armed forces. :rolleyes:

The poppy is not an apolitical symbol as many of the people who promote dont want to it to be, it's a visual reinforcement of one particular viewpoint of history, just like an easter lilly. A bit of honesty wouldnt go amiss from our resident royalists lol

Kingsize

theres nothing civilised about war but theres no harm in remembering those who died,i dont agree with the oil war in iraq but i still feel sorry for the poor bastards getting killed there every day all in the name of what exactly??.

WhiteWashMan

Bambi wrote:

A bit of honesty wouldnt go amiss from our resident royalists lol

its hardly the qualities of a 'royalist' to wear a poppy, in the same way that wearing a shamrock at st patricks day doesnt make one an IRA murderer...

a little less dramatics wouldnt go amiss either.

Victor

WhiteWashMan wrote:

its hardly the qualities of a 'royalist' to wear a poppy

Didn't royalists wear roses? Or is that the wrong war?

Eh, your prodding is probably unfair

true

Bambi wrote:

A bit of honesty wouldnt go amiss from our resident royalists lol

The people who fought in both world wars came from all backgrounds, religions, classes, nationalities etc. The poppy fund money goes to all all needy survivors and dependents, irrespective of if they are royalists or not , Indian , Irish or English or whatever.

Many gave their lives for us, to save us from the sort of Europe Nazi occupied Europe experienced.

WhiteWashMan

Victor wrote:

Didn't royalists wear roses? Or is that the wrong war?

Eh, your prodding is probably unfair

i think that was the war of the roses between yorkshire and, er, lancashire?
and i have no idea what that was over.

but you know, i do get confused as to what it is that people complain about.
is it the english that they dont like, or protestants?

Dyr

WhiteWashMan wrote:

its hardly the qualities of a 'royalist' to wear a poppy, in the same way that wearing a shamrock at st patricks day doesnt make one an IRA murderer...

a little less dramatics wouldnt go amiss either.

Perhaps, but royalist scans far better with resident than any other word i can think of:D

WhiteWashMan

well, i got to admit, i work in the UK, and i dont think ive seen anyone wearing a poppy.
its mostly red nose day badges.

while its obviously a big deal to some people in ireland, i think the majority of people in england (who are not of ethnic manorities, because they tend not to give a monkeys anyway) usually just wear whatever the latest charity badge is for that season. i dont think that outside of a politically sharged situation such as the north of ireland, many people actually give it much thought when they are buying their groceries and stick a pound in the tin beside the checkout and buy a badge.