Would you wear a poppy?

Eriugena

true wrote:

You do not agree with people who decide to give money to a certain charity for ex-servicemen. This would be fair enough in itself BUT
There is a very small gap between advocating expelling these people on a ship out of the country, and advocading sending people to concentration camps in Nazi Gamany. Shame on you.

Don't be so ridiculous! If they love Britain so much they should go there. You should get a sense of humour as well.

In WW1 many did turn out for their own country, which at the time was the UK of Britain and Ireland.

The fioreign invader who has never been accepted.

In WW2, those Irishmen served all our interests well, unless you agree with the Nazi regime in Europe?

No they didn't, a German victory in WW II would have been almost certainly better for Ireland; the country would have been re-united.

Third, those brave men did not throw away their lives for British interests, and you insult their memory by saying so. How low can you get than by speaking so badly of the dead , many of whom gave their lives so you and the rest of Europe can live in freedom and prosperity?

The men who died in WW I died for British interests. The one's who died in WWII died to make the American empire. You insult their memory by not seeking the truth prefrring to repeat tired old self-serving propagandistic versions of those wars.

No they didn't, a German victory in WW II would have been almost certainly better for Ireland; the country would have been re-united.

Yup. Re-united under a puppet government ruled from Berlin. The only real difference from British occupation being the Nazi's usage of concentration/Death camps.

While I do believe that the Allied victory wasn't as complete and as honorable as they've made out of the last few decades, don't fool yourself into believing that a German occupation would have been any better. At least we have a republic of our own, however, if Germany had won we wouldn't have had even that.

Re, the actually wearing of the Poppy and the helping of the charity, Its not for me.

I provide to a number of charities, and helping ex-soldiers isn't very high on my list of concerns. I much prefer my money going to helping children, or medical research.

As for wearing the poppy. Nope. Not a chance in Hell. Its a symbol of the British Empire (at least for me), and I'll not have that anywhere near me by choice. I've matured enough not to get stupid over history, but I still don't like any relationship with Great Britain.

Eriugena

Deleted User wrote:

Yup. Re-united under a puppet government ruled from Berlin.

I doubt it.

The only real difference from British occupation being the Nazi's usage of concentration/Death camps.

A very contentious topic . . .

While I do believe that the Allied victory wasn't as complete and as honorable as they've made out of the last few decades, don't fool yourself into believing that a German occupation would have been any better.

I doubt there would have been an occupation. Why would they need to do that if they had won? The countries that they occupied in the west was done so as to deny them to the British. They occupied Norway only within a day or so of a British invasion - an embarassing topic for the British; which is why they were not keen on Norway being brought up at Nuremberg.

At least we have a republic of our own, however, if Germany had won we wouldn't have had even that.

We have two thirds of a republic which is under Anglo-American hegemony, the rest is under British occupation.

I doubt it.

Care to point out any countries that they let control themselves during 1939-1945, with the exception of Switzerland?

Add Irelands strategic advantage as a naval base, we would have seen a large military garrison here.

I doubt there would have been an occupation. Why would they need to do that if they had won? The countries that they occupied in the west was done so as to deny them to the British. They occupied Norway only within a day or so of a British invasion - an embarassing topic for the British; which is why they were not keen on Norway being brought up at Nuremberg.

Norway was mostly invaded to protect the necessary mineral imports coming from Norway/Sweden, which a Bitish Navy could have blocked. And Norway wasn't exempt from an occupation by miliary forces. Ireland with its reputation for rebellions wouldn't have been left without a large number of troops.

But this is movin away from the actual topic. If you want to discuss further drop me a pm.

Eriugena

Deleted User wrote:

Care to point out any countries that they let control themselves during 1939-1945, with the exception of Switzerland?

Sweden, Finland, Rumania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Italy. They gave Slovakia its independence - they, the Slovaks, were never keen on the allied invention of Versailles known as Czechoslovakia. They were greeted as liberators in the Baltic states and in the Ukraine; even in parts of Russia, until Stalin dropped the worker's paradise lie and played the good old fashioned 'Mother Russia' card.

Add Irelands strategic advantage as a naval base, we would have seen a large military garrison here.

I doubt it, even the British didn't think it was that important. On the other hand the US uses Shannon . . .

Norway was mostly invaded to protect the necessary mineral imports coming from Norway/Sweden, which a Bitish Navy could have blocked.

The British were already mining Norwegian waters - a contravention of international law and an act of war and they were abut to invade;the Germans just beat them to it.

And Norway wasn't exempt from an occupation by miliary forces.

For the reasons stated previously; strange kind of invasion too, they marched off ships with a brass band at their head.

Ireland with its reputation for rebellions wouldn't have been left without a large number of troops.

Rebellions against the British who tried to rule the country. Hitler made it quite clear in the Reichstag that he respected Ireland's neutrality and sovereignty in his response to Roosevelt's lies.

But this is movin away from the actual topic. If you want to discuss further drop me a pm.

Well, not too much, after all, I am giving reasons why we do not owe the British anything for WWII and therefore there is no justification for Irish people wearing Poppies. Would you like to start this as a thread somewhere?

true

Eriugena wrote:

Don't be so ridiculous! If they love Britain so much they should go there.

Nobody said people who give a few bob to the poppy fund "love Britain so much". You said these people should be stripped of their citizenship and expelled out of the country. People who give a few bob to a charity ! A charity that gives much more money to needy people in Ireland than it raises in Ireland, like some other British based charities.

Eriugena wrote:

The fioreign invader who has never been accepted.

Do you think England is the foreign invader of Scotland or Wales ?
Do you think the north island of New Zealand is the foreign invader of the South island of New Zealand ?
Do you think one island of Japan is the foreign invader the other Japanese islands?
Do you think Spain is the invader of the Canaries or Majorca ?
As regards acceptance, why did the rebels of 1916 get so little support they were actually booed and jeered. How many rebels were there in 1916, compared to the hundreds of thousands of men from Ireland who volunteered for the British army, navy etc ?

Eriugena wrote:

No they didn't, a German victory in WW II would have been almost certainly better for Ireland; the country would have been re-united. .

Ask other neutral countries ( three spring to mind ) which were invaded by Nazi Germany how they got on, how their Jewish citizens got on etc..

Eriugena wrote:

The men who died in WW I died for British interests. .

LOL. They died for the interests of a free Europe after Belgium and France had been invaded by Germany etc.
Because we were under the same jurisdiction in WW1, the interests of the UK included ours.

Eriugena wrote:

The one's who died in WWII died to make the American empire..

LOL Many joined up and died long before the "American empire" even came in to the war...
I suppose Eriugena you do not believe that the Nazis persecuted and killed millions of minorities like Jews, homosexuals, communists, handicapped people etc ? Or did they not mention that in an Phoblocht or wherever you learnt your history ?

Eriugena wrote:

You insult their memory by not seeking the truth prefrring to repeat tired old self-serving propagandistic versions of those wars.

LOL. Speak for yourself, old chap.

Hairy Homer

true wrote:

The irish "struggle for freedom" has nothing to do with the poppy.

Well that's correct. If a little bleeding obvious

true wrote:

Our Irish interests were served by those, inc 120000 Irishmen from the island of Ireland, who defeated Nazism in WW2.

It was the Soviet Union with its 20 million dead who did more than the rest of the world combined to defeat Nazism. If you want to commemorate those who defeated Hitler, wear a hammer and sickle.

true

Hairy Homer wrote:

Well that's correct. If a little bleeding obvious
.

It wasnt to someone else, who I had to correct.

Hairy Homer wrote:

It was the Soviet Union with its 20 million dead who did more than the rest of the world combined to defeat Nazism. If you want to commemorate those who defeated Hitler, wear a hammer and sickle.

Did many people from Ireland serve in the Russian army? I do'nt think so, although I know one elderly gentleman who served on the arctic supply route to Russia during the war. They brought badly needed munitions and supplies in convoys of ships from Britain to Russia, by going North over Norway / Sweden, often through atrocious weather and extreme danger.

By contrast, 50,000 people from N. Ireland and 70,000 from the Republic helped defeat Nazism. Thankfully the casulty rate was not as high as the Russians. I am sure you would be the first one to complain if it was.

Eriugena

true wrote:

Nobody said people who give a few bob to the poppy fund "love Britain so much". You said these people should be stripped of their citizenship and expelled out of the country. People who give a few bob to a charity ! A charity that gives much more money to needy people in Ireland than it raises in Ireland, like some other British based charities.

No Irish person has any business givng to this "charity." Some of your money may very well be going to support some killer of Irish people, like those paras at Bloody Sunday.

As regards acceptance, why did the rebels of 1916 get so little support they were actually booed and jeered.

See the response above - JJ Lee explains this.

How many rebels were there in 1916, compared to the hundreds of thousands of men from Ireland who volunteered for the British army, navy etc ?

What is your point here?

LOL. They died for the interests of a free Europe after Belgium and France had been invaded by Germany etc.

Have you forgotten that France had declared war on Germany?

Because we were under the same jurisdiction in WW1, the interests of the UK included ours.

Spoken like a good slave.

LOL Many joined up and died long before the "American empire" even came in to the war...

The US helped bring the war about. The US ambassador Bullit (France) secretly promised the Poles that the US would intervene after Britain and France got involved in the coming war. "If a war should break out," said Bullitt, "we will certainly not take part in the beginning, but we will end it." he said, at the very same time that Roosevelt was lying to the American public about war intentions. The POles would not have been so unreasonable over the Danzig corridor if the Americans were not secretly backing them. The US helped engineer the war which resulted in their post-war hegemony and now empire.

suppose Eriugena you do not believe that the Nazis persecuted and killed millions of minorities like Jews, homosexuals, communists, handicapped people etc ? Or did they not mention that in an Phoblocht or wherever you learnt your history ?

I don't read that paper. You should try studying some history.

[Jackass]

The only military action i would wish to commemerate, and to help fund the wounded, and families of the dead and wounded would be WWII. If a poppy or any other symbol was sold to exclusively honour and commemerate these people, regardless of the soldiers being British, American, Irish, Russian or any other force that fought Hitler, i would wear it with pride. But the fact that the poppy is to support and commemerate the British millitarys actions over the past 100 years and more, i would not support it at all. In fact, quite the oppisite. The British empire has been the most disruptive, oppresive and destructive influence on this planet to date, only second to Hitler's Nazi Germany. The US coming in a distent 3rd, but they're well on there way to matching the Britts over the next 100 years i'm sure. So to answer the question, i would support commemerating the Heros of WWII exclusively, anything outside of that, absolutely not, especially not British millitary history, as is what the poppy represents.

[Edit] Great thread btw Hairy Homer...Very interesting discussion [/Edit]

true

Eriugena wrote:

No Irish person has any business givng to this "charity." Some of your money may very well be going to support some killer of Irish people, like those paras at Bloody Sunday..

Has the charity any business giving money to the thousands of people in Ireland that it does give money to ? I doubt very much if any money is going to support the Paras involved in the Bloody Sunday killings , but even if it were, why should the countless thousands of deserving cases be abandoned?
Irish taxpayers money was / is used to give IRA pensions to old IRA men ( from the old IRA ), but nobody decided not to pay taxes as a result.
The amount of people in WW2 and WW1 was a million times more than killed in bloody Sunday.

Eriugena wrote:

What is your point here?
.

If you answer the qurestion you will see the point. How many rebels were there in 1916 , compared to over 200,000 who volunteered to serve in British uniforms.

Eriugena wrote:

Have you forgotten that France had declared war on Germany? Spoken like a good slave..

Oh, so you are blaming France for WW1 now. And who is the slave to what ? Are you the slave to bigoted republicanism , to the extent you practically deny the holocaust took place.? You talk about the " alledged" ( your word, not mine ) Nazi concentration camps being "A very contentious topic . . ."

Eriugena wrote:

The US helped bring the war about. The US ambassador Bullit (France) secretly promised the Poles that the US would intervene after Britain and France got involved in the coming war. "If a war should break out," said Bullitt, "we will certainly not take part in the beginning, but we will end it." he said, at the very same time that Roosevelt was lying to the American public about war intentions. The POles would not have been so unreasonable over the Danzig corridor if the Americans were not secretly backing them. The US helped engineer the war which resulted in their post-war hegemony and now empire. .

LOL. So WW2 was all the Americans fault. Oh and the Brits of course, they are to blame for everything in the world. LOL Them poor Nazis in the thirties, they never intimidated Jews, they never invaded countries around them, oh but if they did it was just to stop those awful Brits getting there first.

Eriugena wrote:

I don't read that paper. You should try studying some history.

I just asked if you did read that paper. LOL Where did you learn your history from ? The Christian Brothers ? Where ? I'd love to know.

true

DubGuy22 wrote:

. So to answer the question, i would support commemerating the Heros of WWII exclusively, anything outside of that, absolutely not, especially not British millitary history, as is what the poppy represents.

Thats fair enough, I respect that opinion. At least you do not advocate ( like Eriugena ) taking physical action against those who do support this charity for whatever reason, perhaps in memory of a loved one. That smells of the Nazi era of which he / she knows so little about, and from which so many brave Irishmen saved us from, often paying the ultimate sacrifice.

foxybrowne

true, I'm not asking for any personal details, but what kind of school, primary/secondary were you in?

true

DubGuy22 wrote:

. So to answer the question, i would support commemerating the Heros of WWII exclusively, anything outside of that, absolutely not, especially not British millitary history, as is what the poppy represents.

I would disagree with your assertion that "that is what the poppy represents".

However, as least you do not advocate taking physical action against those who would buy / wear a poppy, as Eriugena does. That smells like the Nazi era,of which he / she knows so little , and which so many brave Irishmen fought to save us from (and so we may have a liberated western Europe), often paying the ultimate price.

true

foxybrowne wrote:

true, I'm not asking for any personal details, but what kind of school, primary/secondary were you in?

I asked him first "Where did you learn your history from " , a chara, as he seems to have such a mixed up view of history, to put it mildly.

foxybrowne

I would like to put foward this generalisation.
most people in Ireland are from lower/middle class Catholic backrounds, and would most probably had ancestors who were either a) killed by British Army when it occupied that area or b) served with British Army to escape poverty.
Therefore most people in this country would have no reason to wear Poppy and mourn/glorify the dead British Soldiers.

true

foxybrowne wrote:

I would like to put foward this generalisation.
most people in Ireland are from lower/middle class Catholic backrounds,.

Nobody said they were not. However, did the British army, RAF, or Navy in WW1 or WW2 ever discriminate people from admission on grounds of religion or class? So why bring this up? Any anway do the 10% of the population who were not Catholic in the early 20th century in Ireland not have some rights?

foxybrowne wrote:

and would most probably had ancestors who were either a) killed by British Army when it occupied that area or .

You're scraping the bottom of the barrell now.

foxybrowne wrote:

b) served with British Army to escape poverty. .

A much more likely scenario. Indeed most volunteer soldiers all over the world often joined up "to escape poverty" , and that is still the case in many places,
including the history of the Irish army in this country. People join up to escape poverty. Some also join up to serve their country ( as they saw it in WW1 ), or to help defend Beligum , or for a sense of adventure, or whatever.
Many survivors + dependents , including in Ireland ( shock horror ) have been very grateful for aid received from the poppy fund over the years

foxybrowne wrote:

Therefore most people in this country would have no reason to wear Poppy and mourn/glorify the dead British Soldiers.

Even though many, many thousand of them were Irishmen ? And do you not think people should have the right to wear it without attack ?

foxybrowne

I'll say it again, I see more people walk, unmolested, through the streets of Dublin wearing the Poppy than I ever see wearing the Easter Lily.
When is the time that the Poppy is worn?

true

foxybrowne wrote:

I'll say it again, I see more people walk, unmolested, through the streets of Dublin wearing the Poppy than I ever see wearing the Easter Lily.

I never saw anyone who walked through the streets of Dublin with a poppy, but I have heard many stories of poppy wearers being "molested".

foxybrowne wrote:

When is the time that the Poppy is worn?

If you saw so many walking through the streets of Dublin unmolested then you should be able to remember the time.

foxybrowne

Alright, as in streets of Dublin, I mean Trinity College.

true

What is your point ? That these people should be physically manhandelled off the island, as another poster advocated ?

I never saw anyone wearing an Easter lily, but if they wanted to thats their business. I would not throw them in to the liffey.

Eriugena

true wrote:

Has the charity any business giving money to the thousands of people in Ireland that it does give money to ? I doubt very much if any money is going to support the Paras involved in the Bloody Sunday killings , but even if it were, why should the countless thousands of deserving cases be abandoned?

How do you know they don't? Ex-paras and aged Black and Tans would be entitled to this money. It never ceases to amaze and disgust me to see Irish people so vehemently defending their former masters.

Irish taxpayers money was / is used to give IRA pensions to old IRA men ( from the old IRA ), but nobody decided not to pay taxes as a result.

That's because the IRA were patriots who brought this state into existence. You really are very confused.

If you answer the qurestion you will see the point. How many rebels were there in 1916 , compared to over 200,000 who volunteered to serve in British uniforms.

What is your point? Its always a minority who do the right thing. By 1918 the whole country except for the unionists were behind them.

Oh, so you are blaming France for WW1 now.

Wrong war; do try and pay attention. Britain and France declared war on Germany in September 1939, so the French canhardly coplain if the Germans then invaded them, now can they?

And who is the slave to what ? Are you the slave to bigoted republicanism , to the extent you practically deny the holocaust took place.?

The slave is he one who defends his former master and condemns patriots. This country is all too full of your likes. You must be a fan of Kevin Myer's?

You talk about the " alledged" ( your word, not mine ) Nazi concentration camps being "A very contentious topic . . ."

Yes, I do, apparently another topic you know little about.

LOL. So WW2 was all the Americans fault. Oh and the Brits of course, they are to blame for everything in the world. LOL Them poor Nazis in the thirties, they never intimidated Jews, they never invaded countries around them, oh but if they did it was just to stop those awful Brits getting there first.

Roosevelt was secretly plannig war against Germany whilst lying to the American public and talking peace - this is all very well documented. He told the Poles that the US would back them by entering the war after France and Britain were involved. Of course they were supplying the British with arms before their entry ito the war, this, and various other acts of war compelled the Germans to declare against them after the Japanese and the US went to war.
The result of the war was that Britain was totally bankrupt and had to give up its empire as a condition for receiving aid from the Americans. Half of Europe was given over to Soviet slavery for 40 years. This is, in brief, how the Americans achieved their present status as world imperial power.

Eriugena

true wrote:

I asked him first "Where did you learn your history from " , a chara, as he seems to have such a mixed up view of history, to put it mildly.

History writing is based on the original sources - documents etc from the era; e.g. you could read Ambassador Bullit's diaries to discover more about America's role in bringing about war; many of these sources are now online; there are plenty of books on Roosevelt which can help as well on this question. You should try looking at them sometime rather than getting your world-view from the TV.

WhiteWashMan

the funniest thing for me is the fact that there is even a debate about the whole thing.
that people can get so mepassioned over a simple lapel badge.

for me, threads like this are more about making some sort of subtle bigoted prod at (insert whatever sectarian denomination you dont like here)

i mean, if the majority of people in a country see this is a badge that represents the pride in those who have fallen in battle, as most people in britian do, who do those outseide of that country, always want to try and turn it into some sort of anti religious symbol.
in truth, you could turn the shamrock, that emblom of ireland, into an anti protestant thing. after all, st paddy is a good old catholic patron saint of ireland (let it be noted, good olde st paddy was around a good 800 years before martan luthar nailed a doctarine to a church door in germany declaring a split from the catholic church, and the formation of the protestant faith), and if i was really daring, i could then put forward some rediculous hypothosis that this catholic symbol should be banned and spitted upon because of things like the crusades (hey, the old catholics killed many innocents for power and wealth there, oh, and im sure the was religious cleansing that needed doing), or how about even Omagh?

is it really so bad that remembering the dead in whatever way you want is such a bad thing? or is it nessacery to bring up every little bit of history that you can possibly find in order to start another pointless debate against (insert whatever sectarian denomination you dont like here)?

because thats all i see. another reason to remind people of today why the people of the last centry were bigoted and racist. maybe they had a right to be. i dont think we do. i think ireland needs to start living for tomorrow, and stop living in the past. you cant change the past.
but you can rememebr it in your own way, and if that means you want to wear a poppy, then be proud of it. if you dont want to, then dont. but god almighty, get over this whole idea that people should be shamed about other peoples pasts.

BuffyBot

I would like to put foward this generalisation

At least you admit that that is all it is..

WhiteWashMan

Eriugena wrote:

It never ceases to amaze and disgust me to see Irish people so vehemently defending their former masters.

interesting point.

im still searching for when i was a slave, but you know, i will come back to you when i dredge something out of my memory.

every point you make is about the past.

you have nothing to say about the present, or the future, that involves peace, community or nurtring. all i hear is 'we hate the english, we hate the protestants'

you see what i mean about using stupid topics such as a simple lapel badge as a means of promoting racism, bigotry and hypocracy.

its people like you that are holding ireland back in the bad times and dark ages. its the rest of us that want to get on with living with the rest of the world in the 21st century.

its a poppy.

Eriugena

WhiteWashMan wrote:

interesting point.

im still searching for when i was a slave, but you know, i will come back to you when i dredge something out of my memory.

Don't be so asinine.

every point you make is about the past.

Yes, and you writing this post is in the past, so what?

you have nothing to say about the present, or the future, that involves peace, community or nurtring.

The topic of this thread is about Poppies which is bound up with history. Why not start a 'where do we go from here' thread, I will join.

all i hear is 'we hate the english, we hate the protestants'

Not from me you haven't.

its people like you that are holding ireland back in the bad times and dark ages. its the rest of us that want to get on with living with the rest of the world in the 21st century.

O.k., so you would just like to forget everything , forget who you are, where you are coming from, forget about why things are the way they are etc? How the hell do you think the problems we face can be resolved unless you first of all know what those problems are?

BuffyBot

Ermm, I don't think WWM mentioned anything about forgetting anything. There is world of a difference between forgetting something and letting go, you know.

Eriugena

BuffyBot wrote:

Ermm, I don't think WWM mentioned anything about forgetting anything. There is world of a difference between forgetting something and letting go, you know.

You let go of things when they are resolved and not before.