Would you wear a poppy?

Hairy Homer

This is an emotive subject and could descend into downright abuse so let's try to keep this civil and rational.

I am motivated to post this because last Saturday in Blackrock I saw some people wearing poppies which they had bought from an elderly gentleman who was selling them outside the shopping centre.

Now having grown up (Fenian) in Northern Ireland I remember that one of the ways you could tell Prods from Taigs around this time of year was by whether or not they wore a poppy. All sections of the Protestant community proudly disported their poppies. No Catholic would be seen dead wearing one.

It was very similar 'down here' I'm sure until recently, when the welcome thaw in Biritish Irish relations has led to a number of debates taking place about how we should remember those Irishmen who served in the British Army and should we rejoin the Commonwealth etc etc

Many of us, I'm sure, have had relatives who served in British forces either during one or other of the World Wars or elsewhere. Certainly I have. I know of seven close relatives (five of whom died) all from Ireland who fought in the Irish Guards, Royal Dublin Fusiliers and other outfits.

Some would have us believe that the poppy is intended to commemorate the sacrifice of those who 'fought for freedom' in World Wars one and two and 'defeated Nazism.'

Actually it doesn't. The poppy appeal raises money for all British ex-servicemen and their dependants who are in need of financial support, regardless of what conflict they served in. So it doesn't matter whether the guy in question got his leg blown off on D-Day or lost an eye in a stone and bottle fight in Andersonstown. The poppy appeal treats each case equally. Ditto for those now helping in the destruction of Fallujah.

It must be said of course, that any country has a duty to look after its ex-servicemen and their dependants who were killed or maimed in its defence. And it is also customary for compatriots to feel a certain amount of pride and gratitude for the sacrifice made by those who served in their armed forces.

But as Irish people we are in a different situation.

1) We are in NO position to influence the actions of British forces. We don't vote for their leaders or pay taxes to their government.

2) The British Army has fought in many campaigns that many of us would probably consider to be wrong. Not least in the current war in which they are engaged. They suppressed local uprisings in many countries in the 20th century, eg India, Pakistan, Palestine and let's not forget it Ireland.

3) Those of us from up north probably know people who were killed by that very army (two guys that I was in school were killed by the SAS. The fact that I don't and never did support the IRA in which they were members doesn't mean that I take delight in their demise) Also, the brother of another classmate of mine was murdered by the Army while on a demonstration.

Buying a poppy raises money to help poor old codgers who got their legs blown off while they were soldiers; wearing one says you are proud of their actions and grateful for the fact they did what they did.

But it makes no distinction between one of Britain's many wars and another. To wear a poppy is to show your support for everything the British Army has done in the 20thcentury including:
the Somme
El Alamein
Anzio
Normandy
Dresden

and
Amritsar - massacre of peaceful indian protestors (by an Anglo-Irish officer)
Iraq - not only today but also in the 1920s when 'Air Control' ie the bombing of villages, was used against rebellious tribesmen
Palestine - when Britain helped to properly screw up the most emotive region in the middle east
Suez - when they conspired with France and Israel to keep the Suez Canal European
Cyprus - setting Greek against Turk to keep the island British
Aden - setting Arab against Arab to keep the vital staging post on the trade route to India in British hands
Norn Iron - Bloody Sunday and several hundred other deaths to boot.
I could go on.


If you're proud of all that as an Irish person, wear a poppy. If not, well I'd be interested to hear your views.

DeVore

I wouldnt particularly wear a poppy. However if you put a donations jar in front of me for the men who fought in world war II I'd stick money in it.

I've had reason to chat to a few men who fought in WWII (one a fighter pilot and a truely incredible man to boot). Most have been english or of english descent as it happens though they all mentioned the Irish brigades and many Irishmen fought in that war.
Its hard to see that level of honesty and guts in many around me today. I for one am glad they stood the line. I'm not sure many of the youth of today would fight such a war against Hitler. But I digress...

Its a pity that their colleagues havent lived up to that ideal subsequently. Warfare (indeed the world in general!) has changed radically. No longer are wars fought on beachs or in trenches.

All the same, I'm glad they were there to put a stop to Hitler and for that at least we all owe them some gratitude. It doesnt excuse abuses or excesses but then remember that the army doesnt order itself to attack countries like Iraq, politicians do. The soldiers simply carry out the orders.

DeV.

BuffyBot

remember that the army doesnt order itself to attack countries like Iraq, politicians do.

Probably the most sensible thing that'll be said. At the end of the day, it's a charity appeal to help those who have been wounded when doing the duties ordered of them by their political masters. I don't begrudge such a cause a small donation - even if I don't wear the poppy.

QC

I wouldn't wear a poppy, because to my mind it symbolises a pride in militarism in general and specifically pride in the British army and everything it has done. That doesn't stop me however admiring the sacrifice of those that fought in WW2, or feeling sympathy for servicemen who were killed or injured in wars.

sliabh

My feeling is no. But not for the two reasons given above so I didn't vote.

Personally I feel the Poppy is purely a British army thing, whereas I feel you should remember the soldiers of all the allied armies, and even in many cases the axis ones too. Most did not fight for ideals or countries, they fought for their comrades.

growler

I was also brought up to believe that the poppy was a protestant badge of honour and our family never had any members who joined up in either war so there was never any personal connection with poppy day.

Personally I would not wear one, although I am grateful for many of the positive things they achieved, notably kicking Hitler's ass, there are far too many things done by the army , whether at the behest of their political masters or rogue psychopathic elements, that give me a overall negative view.

Ba_barbaraAnne

I have my poppy and will wear it on 11th. I wear it in rememberance of my grandfathers (one English, one Irish) who fought in the World Wars, and many other deceased relatives who lost their lives fighting for freedom from tyrrany. The poppy is not a symbol of the British Army, it is a fund-raising effort on behalf of ex-servicemen and their families and the poppy is worn on the anniversary of Armistice day. The poppy was chosen because of it's connection with 'Flander's fields', where so many men lost their lives in WW1

This year I was present at a ceremony in a graveyard in Westport, where an Irish holder of the V.C. was honoured by the Minister for Defence. Present were the British Ambassador, leading members of both Irish and English armed forces, representatives from army regiments and serving and ex-soldiers from all over these islands. They were delighted that the times have now changed and that they can be proud of their heroism and military heritage.

For too long now, the thousands of Irish men who fought in the British Army have been denigrated. their sacrifice was no less because they fought under a foreign flag.

For anyone interested here's a link which has a lot of information on the subject http://www.militaryheritagetours.com

landser

i'll definitely be wearing one. My grandmother's two brothers fought in the first war. both survived, but one killed himself in the early twenties. i was at a wedding in Pacaridie in France a couple of years back and went to the cemetries.... it was bloody depressing. while i have problems with some of the connotations associated with the wearing of the poppy, the good reasons outweigh the bad. Let's not forget that one of the first british soliders killed in Iraq was from Ballyfermot

Over the years a solition to the problem was put forward... a green poppy to commemorate all the Irish who died in the wars whether they fought in the British, American or any other army including those who died while keeping the peace with the UN as aprt of the Irish army

sliabh

Ba_barbaraAnne wrote:

The poppy is not a symbol of the British Army, it is a fund-raising effort on behalf of ex-servicemen and their families

While technically it is not the symbol of the British army it is the symbol of the British Legion. And it is pretty much exclusively a British thing. The French, Americans and Russians do not wear it.

magpie

I find it suprising that while people have expressed gratitude for the relatively small numbers of Irishmen who fought against Hitler in WW2 there has been little mention of the over 200,000 Irish who fought in the First World War.

People would do well to remember that the vast majority of the Volunteers joined the British Army on John Redmond's suggestion. Why? Because WW1 was supposed to be a war to protect the rights of small catholic nations, like Belgium. The majority of the Volunteers (a predominantly Catholic, Nationalist organisation) believed that Home Rule for the whole island of Ireland would be granted at the end of the war. A small minority of the Volunteers stayed behind and precipitated the events of 1916 which lead eventually to the current partition.

It's time to stop writing the enormous numbers of Irishmen who served in the British Army in WW1 out of history. You'd do well to remember that in 1914 Ireland was part of the United Kingdom. It's therefore utterly disingenuous to state that the British Army has nothing to do with us.

I say wear a poppy and remember the Irishmen who served in the British Army for what they believed to be a good cause.

Ba_barbaraAnne

Well said Magpie!

simu

I wouldn't wear one because it's a symbol of Britishness for me and indeed, I refused to buy one on a recent trip to England. However, I have no problem with other people who decide to wear them - it's their own choice.

Hairy Homer

magpie wrote:

It's time to stop writing the enormous numbers of Irishmen who served in the British Army in WW1 out of history. You'd do well to remember that in 1914 Ireland was part of the United Kingdom. It's therefore utterly disingenuous to state that the British Army has nothing to do with us.

I say wear a poppy and remember the Irishmen who served in the British Army for what they believed to be a good cause.

Don't believe everything that fool Kevin Myers writes in the Irish Times. I never said, and nor did anybody else here (yet) that we should write these men out of history. That is not the issue. And if you're reading this Kevin, I knew about my ancestors in the British Army long before I ever heard of you so cure yourself of the conceit that you're the only person in the country keeping alive the memory of Irish soldiers who fought in the first world war.

The issue is how we interpret that history today. Nobody can deny the facts that many thousands of Irishmen fought in the British Army in two World Wars (and other conflicts). The question is: what interpretation do we put on it? What relevance does it have today? And how does it help us interpret our attitudes to today's world?

There are many people, especially among the neocon tendency in the US, who use the barbarities of World War II to justify what is going on in Iraq today, for example. Maybe some of you saw the American conservative PJ O'Rourke on the Late Late last Saturday implying that because the Allies destroyed Dresden causing tens of thousands of civilian deaths in the last three months of the war, we shouldn't be too horrified about the comparatively smaller casualties in Baghdad and Fallujah.

It's almost like a precedence of slaughter has been set and because we all agreed that it was a good cause then, maybe we should be supportive of similar events now.

The real question, that sadly can't be answered any more in the case of WWI is: What caused those Irishmen to fight in the British Army? Were they all loyalists at heart?

I don't think so.

Had they been convinced by their Nationalist leaders that they were serving the cause of Irish freedom by acting in good faith towards the British who were going to give us Home Rule after it was over?
Probably in a few cases

Did they join up just to earn a crust?
Probably in many cases

Or were they cynically duped and used as cannon fodder by an establishment that had no use for them in peace or war?
Almost certainly, but in that they were no different from their counterparts in the UK who were sacrificed in droves.

Many of those soldiers who fought in World War One, came home to turn their guns on their former colleagues in our War of Independence shortly afterwards. Tom Barry and Emmet Dalton being only the most famous.

And the argument that Ireland was part of the UK in 1914 so we should look on the British Army as our own is ridiculous. That's like saying that the French, most of whose country was occupied by the Germans in WWII, should should feel some allegiance to the Wehrmacht.

jonny68

Anyobne who wears a British poppy is a disgrace to their country (Niall Quinn take a bow :mad: ) its the very symbol iof Britishness,has absolutely nothing to do at all Ireland,would the same "Irish" people who wear a poppy also wear an Easter Lily to commorate Ireland`s dead eh?I find it totally sickening anybody who`s Irish would even consider wearing a poppy... :mad:

Hairy Homer

Ba_barbaraAnne wrote:

I have my poppy and will wear it on 11th. I wear it in rememberance of my grandfathers (one English, one Irish) who fought in the World Wars, and many other deceased relatives who lost their lives fighting for freedom from tyrrany.

So do you wear a lilly on Easter Monday? That commemorates people who fought to establish this country and provide 'freedom from tyranny' for a 'small nation.'?

This year I was present at a ceremony in a graveyard in Westport, where an Irish holder of the V.C. was honoured by the Minister for Defence. Present were the British Ambassador, leading members of both Irish and English armed forces, representatives from army regiments and serving and ex-soldiers from all over these islands. They were delighted that the times have now changed and that they can be proud of their heroism and military heritage.

I remember reading about that. Sergeant Major Cornelius Coughlan, who won his VC in 1857. That would have been during the Indian Mutiny. So whose 'freedom from tyranny' was he fighting to achieve?

Have you ever read the story of the Indian Mutiny? You should. In fact, any Irish person with an interest in military history should because there were a hell of a lot of Irishmen fighting in the British Army in that war.

And how did they pacify the natives? Some of the methods involved tying them to the mouths of cannons before setting the guns off. And hanging hundreds of them along major routes.

Incidentally, several of the regiments who made up the British Forces in the Indian Mutiny were combined to form the Royal Dublin Fusilers. Whose motto is 'Spectamur Agendo' loosely translated as 'By our actions shall we be known'

Makes you think, doesn't it?

landser

would the same "Irish" people who wear a poppy also wear an Easter Lily to commorate Ireland`s dead eh?I find it totally sickening anybody who`s Irish would even consider wearing a poppy... :mad:[/QUOTE]


I have never worn a Lilly but have attended Bodenstown and Beal Na mBlath

eth0_

I have given money to the poppy day collectors before, but there's absolutely no way i'd wear the poppy! I'm from the north too, so I know all the connotations wearing that poppy has.
I've no problem with people in the Republic wearing poppies, it's their choice, just one I personally disagree with.

newgrange

Not directly related to the poppy 'debate', but if anyone would like to help by photographing the graves of the many Irishmen (and some women) who served and died in the armies of Britain, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa during the First and Second World Wars, please get in touch.

Their graves are spread all over this country, and while we have photographed many of them, there are still lots left.

therecklessone

jonny68 wrote:

Anyobne who wears a British poppy is a disgrace to their country (Niall Quinn take a bow :mad: ) its the very symbol iof Britishness,has absolutely nothing to do at all Ireland,would the same "Irish" people who wear a poppy also wear an Easter Lily to commorate Ireland`s dead eh?I find it totally sickening anybody who`s Irish would even consider wearing a poppy... :mad:

What a thoroughly enlightened chap you are, you're a credit to your nation...

Manach

I would instead perfer to support the organisation of ex-servicemen, O.N.E. , which deals with the welfare of former Irish soldiers.
However it would be a personal choice to wear a poppy here in Ireland, but I reckon there is a great deal of social pressure in the UK to be wearing one around this time of year.

Hagar

I would consider wearing one when there are no more British troops in Ireland. I will not be drawn into a debate as to whether N.Ireland is Irish or British, that's a different topic.

The Muppet

I would have no problem wearing a poppy in rememberance of those that fell in the first and second world war . Most of us would have relatives that were members of the British army. I dont see any difference between buying a poppy and buying any emblem off the various charities that fund raise this way.

Gaijin

jonny68 wrote:

Anyobne who wears a British poppy is a disgrace to their country (Niall Quinn take a bow :mad: ) its the very symbol iof Britishness,has absolutely nothing to do at all Ireland,would the same "Irish" people who wear a poppy also wear an Easter Lily to commorate Ireland`s dead eh?I find it totally sickening anybody who`s Irish would even consider wearing a poppy... :mad:

I find this comment more a disgrace to the Irish nation, more so than wearing a poppy to remember ALL those people who have sacrificed themselves and without whom we would be living in a very different world. Be they Irish,British or bloody Marsians...what does it matter....the point is to realise and acknowledge what they did for the world. I would hope that society has moved on from that small-minded way of thinking

But I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion and this is mine...

magpie

they were no different from their counterparts in the UK who were sacrificed in droves.

With the obvious exception that Ireland is the only country whose citizens fought for the Allies in WW1 and WW2 that deems it socially unacceptable to commemorate their War Dead on November 11, Armistice Day.

And the argument that Ireland was part of the UK in 1914 so we should look on the British Army as our own is ridiculous. That's like saying that the French, most of whose country was occupied by the Germans in WWII, should should feel some allegiance to the Wehrmacht.

Not really. France was occupied by Germany for 4 years. Ireland was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (a distinct political entity, whether you like or not) since 1800. That's 114 years before WW1. And those of you who like to talk about 'British Occupation' normally trace it back to the Normans in the 12th Century. Considerably more Irish people served in the British Army in WW1 (for exactly the same reasons as people from Scotland, Wales and (gasp) England) than ever fought in either 1916 or the War of Independence. Why do you think that is? And does it matter why? Surely the fact that so many Irishmen chose to do so makes it worthwhile honouring their memory? Or do you think they were all wrong?

So do you wear a lilly on Easter Monday? That commemorates people who fought to establish this country and provide 'freedom from tyranny' for a 'small nation.'?

Does it? I thought it showed support for Sinn Fein. Unfortunately there is no national day of commemoration in The Republic of Ireland for 1916 or the War of Independence, otherwise I would be happy to show my support. When a charity or government agency not connected with Sinn Fein sells Easter Lillies and the money goes towards charitable causes (for instance cross-cultural understanding in the North) I will gladly buy and wear one.

Don't believe everything that fool Kevin Myers writes in the Irish Times.

Thanks for crediting me with the ability to form my own opinions. Incidentally, is it my imagination or did Gerry Adams' grandfather not fight in the First World War?

Many of those soldiers who fought in World War One, came home to turn their guns on their former colleagues in our War of Independence shortly afterwards. Tom Barry and Emmet Dalton being only the most famous.

So by honouring veterans of the First World War on Armistice Day are we not also honouring men like Barry & Dalton, who served in the British Army? Or are you saying that we can only honour that part of their life deemed acceptable to Republicans?

I have a question for you all: If a green poppy were made available that commemorated Irishmen who fought in all wars, on all sides, and the money went to a good charity would you buy and wear one? If so maybe that's something we on the boards community can look towards instigating for next Armistice Day.

Victor

magpie wrote:

I find it suprising that while people have expressed gratitude for the relatively small numbers of Irishmen who fought against Hitler in WW2 there has been little mention of the over 200,000 Irish who fought in the First World War.

Actually, I suspect the consensus is the other way around. 50,000 Irish men died in WWI, but *apparently* none in WWII.

magpie wrote:

small catholic nations, like Belgium.

Small country with big empire in Africa.

magpie wrote:

If a green poppy were made available that commemorated Irishmen who fought in all wars, on all sides,

Those Irishmen who fought for Serbia in Bosnia. Hmmm, I'm not sure.

magpie

*apparently* none in WWII.

Let's just say the sign-up for WW2 was comparatively smaller, yet a lot of people go for the 'beating Hitler' argument as there is no obvious Hitler figure in WW1.

Small country with big empire in Africa.

Yeah, yeah, I know. I've read 'The Scramble for Africa' too. I wasn't actually putting this forward as my view of Belgium, but rather how an Irishman of 1914 might have seen it.

Those Irishmen who fought for Serbia in Bosnia. Hmmm, I'm not sure.

You have a talent for pedantry and picking holes in an argument, while avoiding a wider, possibly beneficial suggestion, that is highly commendable. Big up yourself.

A Dub in Glasgo

No I would not wear the red poppy. I would, however, wear a white poppy

MrNuked

Most of you are saying the British army never acted in our interest? You reckon the world would be better if Nazi Germany had become the dominant power in it?
Here's some facts:

1) The only reason Ireland succeeded in becoming independent was because most of Britain's miltary was being used in the Second World War.
2) Most of you won't agree with me, but the fact is that the only reason Ireland was able to maintain her independence during the first couple of decades after the war was because Britain would not allow us to be invaded. Orwell pointed this out in an essay, and mentioned that Republicans would be unable to accept this as being true. (edit: a particular type of republican at least, he was talking about people whose political biases prevented them from accepting certain truths).

Another Orwell reference is relevant here too: "The navy created pacifism".

sliabh

MrNuked wrote:

Here's some facts:

1) The only reason Ireland succeeded in becoming independent was because most of Britain's miltary was being used in the Second World War.

I am not sure where you are getting your history from, but independence (in the form of the free state) occurred 17 years before the start of WWII

MrNuked wrote:

2) Most of you won't agree with me,

With good reason, as you don't seem to know much about when the events then happened.

MrNuked wrote:

but the fact is that the only reason Ireland was able to maintain her independence during the first couple of decades after the war was because Britain would not allow us to be invaded.

You are not making much sense here. First or second world war?

MrNuked

It was during the First World War wasn't it? Same difference if so.

During the first few decades of Irish independence. And no I don't know enough history to be able to argue this point much further, but it might be interesting to discuss. The Irish military could not stand up to a strong foe however, and Ireland is strategically an excellent base for attacks on Britain and Europe. hitler described Ireland as "an unsinkable aircraft carrier".

super_furry

Yes, and I regularly do. My Grandfather gave his life fighting in World War II and I wear it proudly.

To call one of this countries greatest ambasadors and sportsmen, Niall Quinn, "a disgrace to their country" for doing so is dispicable.