[Article] Luas section closed after collision

FX Meister

magpie wrote:

Seamus Brennan apparently went to Spain to see how Madrid built a Metro system from scratch (which is incidentally cheap and efficient, from the the airport into town in no time) at a fraction of the estimated cost to build one in Ireland.

Rolling shifts are the only answer to building something like a metro here. But I can understand the night workers having a shift allowance. Surely though a tender would be put out? And the company who built the Spainish one could put in a similar tender and get it. But then again, things like that are never done properly here and backhanders and the likes are always present.

BrianD

Magpie wrote:

I too was amazed at the selection of a tram as a means of solving traffic problems. Given that it takes up half the lanes on the road it's quite an interesting way of making traffic flow faster. It's as if a road traffic consultant were time-travelled back from Victorian England. "What you need is trams, and lots of them". It's only surprising that they are not steam powered.

First of all, the tram system is not a solution to traffic problems but the provision of a urban public transport service. Two tram lines are not the solution but part of the solution. Secondly, trams are best suited to a city the size of Dublin and this has been demonstrated in both Europe and USA. The metro, as proposed by Brennan, is a white elephant and a monumental waste of money.

magpie

I'd beg to differ. Have a look at these articles to see how Metro systems can be good value for money

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQQ/is_5_43/ai_102286983

http://www.ita-aites.org/cms/834.html

The Madrid Metro extension was built at a cost of €52 million per Kilometre including rolling stock, construction etc all in. It was also completed in 42 Months.

The LUAS has cost €775 million so far to lay down, for which we could have had 15 kilometres of Metro instead of 25 Km of tram line, much of which was pre-existing disused railway.

Which is the white elephant now?

EDIT: I had to laugh when I saw Luas giving away a panasonic discman in their "Be Safe" competition. No, not an ipod. A discman. And it would seem they should allow adults to enter as well, judging by the number of accidents at junctions http://www.luas.ie/document/index.asp?head=9#65

BrianD

Metros may be good value for money but not the one proposed by Brennan!

Andrew Duffy

Spain has considerably lower wages than Ireland, which would lead to cheaper contruction, materials and land costs. Comparing a city of 5 million to a city of 1.5 million (at the most - Dublin's city population is half a million; you have to include significant chunks of Kildare, Wicklow, Meath and Louth to get the 1.5 million) is a pointless exercise as well - any train line in Madrid will have a much higher population density along its alignment than any line in Dublin.
Dublin needs her tram system finished with the fully planned lines to Lucan and Ballymun, and the heavy rail network extended according to the fully planned Dublin Rail Plan, before any more money is spent on designs for Metros that will never get built.

enterprise

Two things:

1ST: ALL CAR drivers are complete and utter morans when it comes to understanding the rules of the road. Blame the tram driver? C'mon they the best trained on the roads.

2nd: The Brennan metro IS A WHITE ELEPHANT. More LUAS lines and a DART type spur to the Airport - which is proposed by IE is what Dublin needs.

magpie

So, erm, why couldn't we have got cheap Spanish labour to build us a nice metro with that €775 and counting that the LUAS is costing, instead of a crappy tram system that keeps crashing into other road users?

A Dub in Glasgo

The cost of putting the workforce up in and around Dublin is prohibitive. The Spanish also don;t mess about when it comes to compulsory purchase of land and they do not offer market rates for that land.

sliabh

Those that say we need more Luas lines and not a heavier rail option should taker a look at the Green line in the mornings. By the Dundrum station the trams are packed and people at Miltown (the half way point where I get on going to Sandyford) often are unable to get on the trams as they are full. The system is at capacity at rush hour. And this is for what is only a partial line that does not run all the way into the city centre or go south to Cherrywood and Shankill as is ultimately planned.

Trams alone are not sufficient.

maxheadroom

sliabh wrote:

Those that say we need more Luas lines and not a heavier rail option should taker a look at the Green line in the mornings. By the Dundrum station the trams are packed and people at Miltown (the half way point where I get on going to Sandyford) often are unable to get on the trams as they are full. The system is at capacity at rush hour.

I have similar experience on the red line when I use it (about twice a week, at both peak and off peak times).

A Dub in Glasgo

I don't think it will come as any surprise that the Luas trams are packed to the hilt. What is probably needed is Luas starting at midpoints during the inbound peak and an express outbound service to the midpoint. Is the system designed to do this? I don't know but it makes sense rather than have people down the line getting frustrated that they cannot get on a tram during the peak service.

enterprise

sliabh wrote:

Those that say we need more Luas lines and not a heavier rail option should taker a look at the Green line in the mornings. By the Dundrum station the trams are packed and people at Miltown (the half way point where I get on going to Sandyford) often are unable to get on the trams as they are full. The system is at capacity at rush hour. And this is for what is only a partial line that does not run all the way into the city centre or go south to Cherrywood and Shankill as is ultimately planned.

Trams alone are not sufficient.

Sliabh,

I live in Milltown and am a regular customer in the peak hour so I do know full well how busy the trams are - saying that I have always got on the 1st tram to arrive and I haven't seen anybody being left behind.

However!

I got tram 3023 on the Red line this evening from Connolly to Jervis, it was nearly full by Abbey, about 100 people left behind at Jervis, only 20 or so got on.

The full Red Line timetable is badly needed - and soon, not the middle-end of Nov from what I have heard.

enterprise

Green Line LUAS users take note:

Due to the accident at Stillorgan stop on Saturday nite Connex do not have enough trams to run the full peak-hour service. There are currently 3 out of 14 accident damaged trams in Sandyford depot (4002 & 4012 - damaged at St. Stephens Green & 4007 damaged at Stillorgan, for those interested).

Therefore a reduced peak hour service will operate until further notice (i.e. there will be gaps of up to 10 mins at times).

There is rumours being passed about saying that Connex / The RPA are looking at the possibility of moving a 3001 series tram (Red Line) to the Green Line on a short-term loan to cover the shortage.

Before anybody asks - yes 3001 & 4001 Trams can run on both Tram lines!

MrPudding

Did anyone think we wouldn't have this problem? I am still stunned at the balls some people have when running red lights. Twice I have stopped at a red light on the N11 only to have the driver behind me pull out past me to run the light. This was not a case of someone driving too fast to stop. I one case they were travelling very slowly and could have stopped easily. The second time they had actually came to a complete stop and then changed their mind.

How hard is it to stop at a red light? When the Dublin city transport guy was on the right hook show on newstalk someone suggested having an amber before green in the light sequence as this speeds up the traffic. He admitted that it would indeed speed up traffic but they could not even hope to implement it as too many drivers ran red lights. I think it is disgraceful that a measure to speed up traffic to the benefit of all cannot be implemented because too many drivers run red lights.

What we need is more drivers running reds and getting t-boned. Perhaps we can improve the standard of driving in the city through natural selection. I of course hope that no innocent drivers or passengers in other cars or trams get hurt.

MrP

sliabh

MrPudding wrote:

What we need is more drivers running reds and getting t-boned. Perhaps we can improve the standard of driving in the city through natural selection. I of course hope that no innocent drivers or passengers in other cars or trams get hurt.

A less drastic solution is to use the Garda traffic watch number: 1890 205 805

And before the "the Guards are uselsss" posts start, I was plesantly surprised with what happened with I called in a week ago. Cycling into town I met a BMW driver coming the wrong way around a roundabout. His attitude was brazen and unrepentant with I asked him what he was at (I was told to "piss off" and that "sometimes" he went round roundabouts that way). So when I got home I called the traffic watch number and gave the details.

They asked me would I be willing to make a statement which I said yes to. So last Monday 2 Guards called to my house to follow up. After a discussion I said that I didn't feel it should go to court (they have more serious traffic and crime issues to follow up on) but I did make a formal statement. The Guard was pretty good and said that the formal recomendation would probably be for a caution (based on my position) and that he personally would "put a flea in the ear" of the driver. The Guard is to get back to me after the chat has happened.

So if you see someone breaking red lights or otherwise acting the maggot get their number and report them. The Guards won't take them to court unless you push for it, but they will talk to them and say that this time you are getting a caution, but the next time it could be a summons. Less people will be hurt and it will put the shíts up 90% of the people approached this way.

That number again: 1890 205 805

mackerski

MrPudding wrote:

What we need is more drivers running reds and getting t-boned.

As an alternative, and radical, proposal, why not just prosecute them? Why not redeploy some of the spend on speed cameras for motorways and put them where they can do some good? Red light enforcement cameras work really well in other countries.

Dermot

flav0rflav

sliabh wrote:

Trams alone are not sufficient.

Bollox they're only running every 10 minutes. Double, triple, quadruple the rate of them.

Any alternative or addition is five years away.

They should be building more already.

edit

just read about the damaged ones, and reduced service, what ****, haven't they paid for someone to fix the damn things????

Victor

MrPudding wrote:

What we need is more drivers running reds and getting t-boned. Perhaps we can improve the standard of driving in the city through natural selection. I of course hope that no innocent drivers or passengers in other cars or trams get hurt.

The car this morning wasn't just damaged - it was totally written off. Place a few of these at strategic locations as reminders.

sliabh

flav0rflav wrote:

Bollox they're only running every 10 minutes. Double, triple, quadruple the rate of them.

Any alternative or addition is five years away.

The Green line runs at a 5 minute interval at the moment and it's maxed out. Considering loading times there is no way an interval of more that every 3 minutes would be possible.

The original intention for the Green line (back when Mary O'Rourke signed off on the design so people should stop complaining about Brennan) was to have the line upgraded to Metro when the north/south metro line to the airport was built. It was never intended that trams alone would be sufficient on this line.

vinnyfitz

And another one this morning! (At 6.45 at the Capel St junction apparently.)

Drivers tend to skip lights early in the morning. Its clearly time they copped on.

Does someone really have to get killed before drivers respect the Luas for what it is?

Hagar

All joking aside, this is getting very serious.

I know trains operate on a level crossing basis as they cannot stop but Luas trams are different as they mix regularly with ordinary traffic on ordinary streets.
If I crash into a stationary car which is blocking a box junction I am at fault as I am deemed to be travelling too fast to stop in time. I accept that the driver in the box junction is committing a traffic offence but is it punishable by death as in "death by un-stoppable Luas"?
How long before we have our first fatality?
Are the Luases travelling faster than their ability to stop?
If so should they be on the road at that speed?

sliabh

Hagar wrote:

All joking aside, this is getting very serious.

Damn right. We are now up to one a day. By the end of the week the system will be out of action.

But I don't think the problem is the trams. Tram systems operate just fine in the rest of the world so until someone convinces me that ours has some odd Irish specific traffic faults I am going to assume it's motorists at fault.

I think there are two problems. The first is some drivers are not familiar with the system, and the second is that some people are becoming too used to the trams. The latter ones are then assuming they know what they can get away with around the system.

As for what is to be done to help out now, I think publicity is key. They should announce that (for a short period) there will be increased Garda monitoring of critical junctions. Motorists acting the maggot will get hauled in straight away before they can cause an accident. After a couple of weeks of "x motorists were ticketed for driving without due care and attention around the Luas" people will be more cautious and respectful of the trams. Then after a few months there will be reports of prosecutions in some cases (for those that did cause accidents, or nearly did so).

The same approach worked when Bus lanes were introduced. I remember people thinking that drivers will not stay out of them. But today they are generally respected. Why? Because there was a visible Garda presence when they were introduced and people found themselves in court (my mother included). These days the Guards just have to do occasional checks and things seem to work reasonably well.

High profile enforcement, even if it is just for a while, is the key.

A Dub in Glasgo

Hagar, I think you are totally misunderstanding of the whole road/rail interface. Cars should not be on the rail tracks unless they are obeying traffic lights and the route is clear. There are no if and buts. The car drivers are totally at fault and it is a sad reflection on the ability of car drivers to control their cars and their knowledge of the rules.

enterprise

sliabh wrote:

A less drastic solution is to use the Garda traffic watch number: 1890 205 805

And before the "the Guards are uselsss" posts start, I was plesantly surprised with what happened with I called in a week ago. Cycling into town I met a BMW driver coming the wrong way around a roundabout. His attitude was brazen and unrepentant with I asked him what he was at (I was told to "piss off" and that "sometimes" he went round roundabouts that way). So when I got home I called the traffic watch number and gave the details.

They asked me would I be willing to make a statement which I said yes to. So last Monday 2 Guards called to my house to follow up. After a discussion I said that I didn't feel it should go to court (they have more serious traffic and crime issues to follow up on) but I did make a formal statement. The Guard was pretty good and said that the formal recomendation would probably be for a caution (based on my position) and that he personally would "put a flea in the ear" of the driver. The Guard is to get back to me after the chat has happened.

So if you see someone breaking red lights or otherwise acting the maggot get their number and report them. The Guards won't take them to court unless you push for it, but they will talk to them and say that this time you are getting a caution, but the next time it could be a summons. Less people will be hurt and it will put the shíts up 90% of the people approached this way.

That number again: 1890 205 805

Thanks for that number, I had been meaning to look for it. I saw it when I was travelling (as a passenger) from Galway to Waterford last Saturday but didn't have the time to note the number.

Now the number's armed in my phone, so if a motorist does something stupid in front of me I will be giving the boys in blue a shout!

jlang

From my knowledge of the recent crashes they were not caused by stationary cars blocking yellow boxes but by cars breaking the red light trying to rush across the junction before the Luas gets there (ie moving cars that were completely in the wrong to have crossed the stop line regardless of where they had planned to stop). If there's been that many actual crashes, my concern is for the Luas drivers who must each see so many near misses that they might get affected in the head.

BrianD

Are the cameras on these junctions? Putting a garda on each junction would be a worthwhile exercise. Should have been done from the start. It is interesting to note that the Red line had been running a full schedule for a number of weeks before carrying passengers. During this period there were few or no accidents. Why are we getting almost one a day all of a sudden? What has changed?

In response to another poster the trams run at 50kph in the city that's 30mph. It would be very hard for a tram or car to stop at that speed if a car crosses its path at 90 degrees. Afterall these junctions are no different to any other signal controlled cross roads in the junction. In fact they are simpler as there is only crossing traffic and no turning traffic.

BrianD3

As already mentioned, there is a major culture of red light breaking in Ireland, and especially in Dublin. I believe it has gotten worse in the last 5 years. It's now the norm to go through red lights 5 or more seconds after the light has turned red. Drivers who actually stop for red lights risk being rear ended by the vehicles behind because the muppets behind don't expect anyone to stop at red lights. Also, if you do stop for a red light some asshole behind may get out of his car at you and berate you for holding him up by having the *nerve* to stop at a red light (has happened to me)

This behaviour results in countless "near misses" every day as road users take avoiding action to prevent collisions with other road users who have broken red lights. Obviously, the LUAS is less capable of taking avoiding action so we're seeing collisions instead of near misses.

I have no sympathy at all for someone who is maimed or killed after driving through a red light in front of the LUAS. Better that they hit the LUAS and kill themselves rather than drive into the side of my car and kill me.

BrianD3

dowlingm

what about speed humps on the roads crossing LUAS? (At junctions where accidents/incidents have happened). I hate humps where they have no safety value but they might deter the red light runners.

Hagar

I think there are a couple of key points here.

The standard of driving is appalling.
Trams are allowed travel at speeds greater than that at which cars are allowed and it takes trams take a longer to stop than cars.
Cars and trams are sharing road space and junctions unlike the bus lane scernario where buses and cars are seperated.

Accidents had to follow - this was predictable. Where are the Gardaí ?

sliabh

Hagar wrote:

I think there are a couple of key points here.

Trams are allowed travel at speeds greater than that at which cars are allowed...

I am not sure you can state that. The trams do no more than 50kph in built up areas (you can see the tram speed limit signs around town, or stand behind the driver an shoulder surf his speedo to check this). This is the same speed as motorists. And I'd have a lot more faith in the tram drivers keeping to their limits than motorists.