[Article] Luas section closed after collision

Victor

The concept of "It's big, shiny, has lights and is moving in a defined path, how can you miss it?" comes to mind, but is self-fulfilling.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1024/luas.html

LUAS section closed after collision
24 October 2004 07:21

A section of the Luas Green Line servicing south Dublin was out of operation for around two hours last night after one of the trams was in collision with a car.

The crash happened on Upper Kilmacud Road shortly after 9.15pm.

No passenger was hurt and it is believed the motorist sustained minor injuries.

As a result, no trams operated between Kilmacud and Sandyford.

Normal service resumed before midnight.

BrianD

This sounds like a tip rather than a serious accident involving injury and It's typically Irish that nobody moves till the cops arrive. There should be some way of fast tracking these incidents so the travelling public aren't inconvenienced. Unless the tram driver went through a stop signal, it is pretty obvious who is at fault.

Hagar

Unless the Pope was driving the Luas the driver is fallible. I do wish people would stop treating the Luas drivers as Gods. If you think about it they are actually quite inexperienced in that the Luas have only been running for a couple of months. They are no better nor no worse than anyone else on the roads. They don't have any devine rights and the car driver was also a "member of the travelling public" even though he was doing it under his own steam.

"Get out of the way I'm coming through" is a bit much in my opinion.

therecklessone

Hagar wrote:

Unless the Pope was driving the Luas the driver is fallible. I do wish people would stop treating the Luas drivers as Gods. If you think about it they are actually quite inexperienced in that the Luas have only been running for a couple of months. They are no better nor no worse than anyone else on the roads. They don't have any devine rights and the car driver was also a "member of the travelling public" even though he was doing it under his own steam.

"Get out of the way I'm coming through" is a bit much in my opinion. :(

Putting the two bold quotes together I can't help but feel you've already made up your mind who's to blame. And it ain't the car driver...

Anything to back up that conclusion? Were you a witness? Are you an expert in tram vs. car collisions?

Hagar

therecklessone wrote:

You really have it in for public transport staff, don't you? What prompted you to jump to your conclusion that the tram driver was at fault? Were you a witness? Are you an expert in tram vs. car collisions? Or were you just pulling it out of your ar*e?

Where exactly did I say any of that?

therecklessone

Hagar wrote:

Where exactly did I say any of that?

Original post edited after cup of tea, hence the difference between what you've quoted and whats in my post. Sorry for the original hostility.

Anyway, read the edited post. It appears to me (based on your last sentence) that you're leaning towards blaming the Luas driver. Am I right?

Hagar

No I'm not blaming the Luas driver. What I'm saying is, it is wrong to assume that the Luas driver is always right. I accept in this instance he may well be right but it is wrong to pre-judge the car driver. There are many places where the Luas and regular traffic come into contact and people will make mistakes. Let's not demonize either the car driver or the Luas driver.
If we are not careful an attitude will creep in as it has done with some other professional drivers. Bus drivers, white van man, basically anybody driving any sort of vehicle that doesn't have to live with the repair bill after an accident.

Dub13

Hagar wrote:

If we are not careful an attitude will creep in as it has done with some other professional drivers. Bus drivers, white van man, basically anybody driving any sort of vehicle that doesn't have to live with the repair bill after an accident.

A Van Driver is not a professional driver nor is a Taxi driver.

A Dub in Glasgo

I would place a lot higher professionism in a train/tram driver over the vast majority of drivers of motor vehicles. I have seen loads of instances where motor vehicle drivers put themselves and those of train passengers in immediate danger when they do stupid things at level crossings.

My experience in the rail sector would point towards a motor vehicle driver being at fault in the majority of road/rail incidents.

maxheadroom

Hagar - assuming the luas driver did not cross a stop signal can you explain how it could possibly not be the fault of the car driver?

And, if the car driver was at fault, (s)he should have to pay for both the damage to the tram and loss of earnings for connex. Possibly also for some kind of compensation for the people who were held up over the incident.

pork99

How about a "you block the tram line and you loose your license" policy? I'd be in favour of that. (Also a "you block pedestrian crossings when there's a red light against you and you loose your license" policy would be good imho)

Victor

pork99 wrote:

How about a "you block the tram line and you loose your license" policy?

I suppose this would be an appropriate step down from "you block the railway and your car becomes splinters".

A Dub in Glasgo

And you may die!!

Crossley

Victor wrote:

one of the trams was in collision with a car

Interesting the way these incidents are reported. I'm open to correction but I don't recall a single incident to date where it was reported that the car was in collision with the tram. :rolleyes:

therecklessone

Hagar wrote:

No I'm not blaming the Luas driver. What I'm saying is, it is wrong to assume that the Luas driver is always right. I accept in this instance he may well be right but it is wrong to pre-judge the car driver.

Accepted. I jumped to conclusions myself, sorry 'bout that.

Hagar wrote:

If we are not careful an attitude will creep in as it has done with some other professional drivers. Bus drivers, white van man, basically anybody driving any sort of vehicle that doesn't have to live with the repair bill after an accident.

Previous experience suggests that driving standards of the general public are atrocious in this country. I've yet to see any bad Luas driving.

MrVestek

Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't the luas 'drivers' only there to stop the tram in an emergency? ie some eejit/car/hore/alien on the line? Im sure i heard somewhere that the trip itself is actually automated... i could be wrong tho.

FX Meister

The driver ignored a red light, slammed on the brakes and stopped directly in the path of the LUAS who did not have enough track distance to slow down and stop. Drivers in Ireland are terrible at lights, a lot of people don't stop for red lights and another huge number drive well past the line. The spa BMW driver learnt a valuable lesson

dazberry

This was on the news the other day on TV3. TBH the crash looked a fair bit more than a simple prang - there seemed to be a fair bit of damage to both the car and the Luas.

I can't remember the exact language of the report - i.e. car hit Luas or Luas hit car etc., but the report focused more on the junction than blaming either drivers. Supposedly the lighting sequence is very short - and possibly flawed - which they eluded to as being a possible cause.

D.

FX Meister

So it seems there wasn't enough of a delay to let the driver get away with driving through a red light.

BrianD

And the driver should have been aware of the presence of tram. Does he not look as he goes through a junction even he has a green?

Tarabuses

It seems that the Luas unit 4007 will be out of commission for some time.

Hagar

Another prang this morning.
Will we run out of idiots before we run out of trams?
They should have done it properly and built a proper underground Metro system.

dmeehan

Hagar wrote:

Another prang this morning.
Will we run out of idiots before we run out of trams?
system.

hopefully

FX Meister

Hagar wrote:

Another prang this morning.
Will we run out of idiots before we run out of trams?
They should have done it properly and built a proper underground Metro system.

By the time they would have finished the Metro cars would probably be obsolete

RuggieBear

FX Meister wrote:

By the time they would have finished the Metro cars would probably be obsolete

lol....

Is there any stats or info for other towns that introduced trams and incidents invloving them? I'd just be curious to know if it is us or just a normal consequnce of introducing a new form of transport on the roads....?

Victor

Anecdotally, yes, the accidents do happen or are at least reported (because they are new and diffferent and rail systems have reporting systems for all incidents rather than "ah sure it's only a scratch, how about we sort this out without the insurance").

magpie

They should have done it properly and built a proper underground Metro system.

Seamus Brennan apparently went to Spain to see how Madrid built a Metro system from scratch (which is incidentally cheap and efficient, from the the airport into town in no time) at a fraction of the estimated cost to build one in Ireland.

How did those fiendish Spaniards manage it? By wild, futuristic ideas like having a 24 hour rolling shift (which bone-idle Irish construction workers would blanch at, or demand overtime). Of course having construction workers who actually earn less than neuroscientists probably helps.

I too was amazed at the selection of a tram as a means of solving traffic problems. Given that it takes up half the lanes on the road it's quite an interesting way of making traffic flow faster. It's as if a road traffic consultant were time-travelled back from Victorian England. "What you need is trams, and lots of them". It's only surprising that they are not steam powered.

Apparently the Government plans to reintroduce gas lighting, workhouses and re-entry into Union with Great Britain as projects for future progress.

EDIT: Actually, now I come to think about it even the Victorians had an underground system.

Victor

Hagar wrote:

Another prang this morning. Will we run out of idiots before we run out of trams? They should have done it properly and built a proper underground Metro system.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1026/luas.html

Luas tram in collision at Blackhall Place
26 October 2004 09:22

It is reported that a Luas tram has collided with a car at Blackhall Place in Dublin.

It happened at about 6.45am on Benburb Street. Gardaí were at the scene.

Two people who were in the car were injured.

The area was closed off for a short time but has since reopened.

egan007

MORONS! - what's so diffucult about not entering a yellow box

Terminator

FX Meister wrote:

The driver ignored a red light, slammed on the brakes and stopped directly in the path of the LUAS who did not have enough track distance to slow down and stop. Drivers in Ireland are terrible at lights, a lot of people don't stop for red lights and another huge number drive well past the line. The spa BMW driver learnt a valuable lesson

That is so true - whenever I'm at the lights waiting to cross I always give it a second or two after its gone green before I cross over as half the time you get a silly ass flying through the red light like a bandit.

Stimpyone

here's another one....

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/10/26/story172850.html

Four injured as car collides with Luas tram
26/10/2004 - 08:20:46

Four people were taken to hospital today after a car crashed into a Luas tram in Dublin.

The accident happened before 7am at the signal junction between Blackhall Place and Benburb Street.

The car, which contained three passengers, collided with the Luas tram travelling on the Red Line from Connolly Station to Tallaght.

The passengers suffered minor injuries and were taken to hospital. The driver of the tram was also taken to hospital to be treated for shock.

Tram operator Connex said the Luas tram had been obeying the signal lights at the junction.

Spokeswoman Emma Raferty said: “In this instance, it seems like the car went into the path of the tram. Our incident team and the Gardai will be looking into this.”

The tram was taken back to the Luas depot at the Red Cow Roundabout with minor damage. Normal Luas services resumed at 8am.

Gardaí in the nearby Bridwell Station said there had been at least five accidents involving cars and Luas trams in the area.

Last month, two Luas trams collided at the St Stephen’s Green stop. The investigation into the accident is still continuing.


Driving standards in this country are appalling

FX Meister

magpie wrote:

Seamus Brennan apparently went to Spain to see how Madrid built a Metro system from scratch (which is incidentally cheap and efficient, from the the airport into town in no time) at a fraction of the estimated cost to build one in Ireland.

Rolling shifts are the only answer to building something like a metro here. But I can understand the night workers having a shift allowance. Surely though a tender would be put out? And the company who built the Spainish one could put in a similar tender and get it. But then again, things like that are never done properly here and backhanders and the likes are always present.

BrianD

Magpie wrote:

I too was amazed at the selection of a tram as a means of solving traffic problems. Given that it takes up half the lanes on the road it's quite an interesting way of making traffic flow faster. It's as if a road traffic consultant were time-travelled back from Victorian England. "What you need is trams, and lots of them". It's only surprising that they are not steam powered.

First of all, the tram system is not a solution to traffic problems but the provision of a urban public transport service. Two tram lines are not the solution but part of the solution. Secondly, trams are best suited to a city the size of Dublin and this has been demonstrated in both Europe and USA. The metro, as proposed by Brennan, is a white elephant and a monumental waste of money.

magpie

I'd beg to differ. Have a look at these articles to see how Metro systems can be good value for money

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQQ/is_5_43/ai_102286983

http://www.ita-aites.org/cms/834.html

The Madrid Metro extension was built at a cost of €52 million per Kilometre including rolling stock, construction etc all in. It was also completed in 42 Months.

The LUAS has cost €775 million so far to lay down, for which we could have had 15 kilometres of Metro instead of 25 Km of tram line, much of which was pre-existing disused railway.

Which is the white elephant now?

EDIT: I had to laugh when I saw Luas giving away a panasonic discman in their "Be Safe" competition. No, not an ipod. A discman. And it would seem they should allow adults to enter as well, judging by the number of accidents at junctions http://www.luas.ie/document/index.asp?head=9#65

BrianD

Metros may be good value for money but not the one proposed by Brennan!

Andrew Duffy

Spain has considerably lower wages than Ireland, which would lead to cheaper contruction, materials and land costs. Comparing a city of 5 million to a city of 1.5 million (at the most - Dublin's city population is half a million; you have to include significant chunks of Kildare, Wicklow, Meath and Louth to get the 1.5 million) is a pointless exercise as well - any train line in Madrid will have a much higher population density along its alignment than any line in Dublin.
Dublin needs her tram system finished with the fully planned lines to Lucan and Ballymun, and the heavy rail network extended according to the fully planned Dublin Rail Plan, before any more money is spent on designs for Metros that will never get built.

enterprise

Two things:

1ST: ALL CAR drivers are complete and utter morans when it comes to understanding the rules of the road. Blame the tram driver? C'mon they the best trained on the roads.

2nd: The Brennan metro IS A WHITE ELEPHANT. More LUAS lines and a DART type spur to the Airport - which is proposed by IE is what Dublin needs.

magpie

So, erm, why couldn't we have got cheap Spanish labour to build us a nice metro with that €775 and counting that the LUAS is costing, instead of a crappy tram system that keeps crashing into other road users?

A Dub in Glasgo

The cost of putting the workforce up in and around Dublin is prohibitive. The Spanish also don;t mess about when it comes to compulsory purchase of land and they do not offer market rates for that land.

sliabh

Those that say we need more Luas lines and not a heavier rail option should taker a look at the Green line in the mornings. By the Dundrum station the trams are packed and people at Miltown (the half way point where I get on going to Sandyford) often are unable to get on the trams as they are full. The system is at capacity at rush hour. And this is for what is only a partial line that does not run all the way into the city centre or go south to Cherrywood and Shankill as is ultimately planned.

Trams alone are not sufficient.

maxheadroom

sliabh wrote:

Those that say we need more Luas lines and not a heavier rail option should taker a look at the Green line in the mornings. By the Dundrum station the trams are packed and people at Miltown (the half way point where I get on going to Sandyford) often are unable to get on the trams as they are full. The system is at capacity at rush hour.

I have similar experience on the red line when I use it (about twice a week, at both peak and off peak times).

A Dub in Glasgo

I don't think it will come as any surprise that the Luas trams are packed to the hilt. What is probably needed is Luas starting at midpoints during the inbound peak and an express outbound service to the midpoint. Is the system designed to do this? I don't know but it makes sense rather than have people down the line getting frustrated that they cannot get on a tram during the peak service.

enterprise

sliabh wrote:

Those that say we need more Luas lines and not a heavier rail option should taker a look at the Green line in the mornings. By the Dundrum station the trams are packed and people at Miltown (the half way point where I get on going to Sandyford) often are unable to get on the trams as they are full. The system is at capacity at rush hour. And this is for what is only a partial line that does not run all the way into the city centre or go south to Cherrywood and Shankill as is ultimately planned.

Trams alone are not sufficient.

Sliabh,

I live in Milltown and am a regular customer in the peak hour so I do know full well how busy the trams are - saying that I have always got on the 1st tram to arrive and I haven't seen anybody being left behind.

However!

I got tram 3023 on the Red line this evening from Connolly to Jervis, it was nearly full by Abbey, about 100 people left behind at Jervis, only 20 or so got on.

The full Red Line timetable is badly needed - and soon, not the middle-end of Nov from what I have heard.

enterprise

Green Line LUAS users take note:

Due to the accident at Stillorgan stop on Saturday nite Connex do not have enough trams to run the full peak-hour service. There are currently 3 out of 14 accident damaged trams in Sandyford depot (4002 & 4012 - damaged at St. Stephens Green & 4007 damaged at Stillorgan, for those interested).

Therefore a reduced peak hour service will operate until further notice (i.e. there will be gaps of up to 10 mins at times).

There is rumours being passed about saying that Connex / The RPA are looking at the possibility of moving a 3001 series tram (Red Line) to the Green Line on a short-term loan to cover the shortage.

Before anybody asks - yes 3001 & 4001 Trams can run on both Tram lines!

MrPudding

Did anyone think we wouldn't have this problem? I am still stunned at the balls some people have when running red lights. Twice I have stopped at a red light on the N11 only to have the driver behind me pull out past me to run the light. This was not a case of someone driving too fast to stop. I one case they were travelling very slowly and could have stopped easily. The second time they had actually came to a complete stop and then changed their mind.

How hard is it to stop at a red light? When the Dublin city transport guy was on the right hook show on newstalk someone suggested having an amber before green in the light sequence as this speeds up the traffic. He admitted that it would indeed speed up traffic but they could not even hope to implement it as too many drivers ran red lights. I think it is disgraceful that a measure to speed up traffic to the benefit of all cannot be implemented because too many drivers run red lights.

What we need is more drivers running reds and getting t-boned. Perhaps we can improve the standard of driving in the city through natural selection. I of course hope that no innocent drivers or passengers in other cars or trams get hurt.

MrP

sliabh

MrPudding wrote:

What we need is more drivers running reds and getting t-boned. Perhaps we can improve the standard of driving in the city through natural selection. I of course hope that no innocent drivers or passengers in other cars or trams get hurt.

A less drastic solution is to use the Garda traffic watch number: 1890 205 805

And before the "the Guards are uselsss" posts start, I was plesantly surprised with what happened with I called in a week ago. Cycling into town I met a BMW driver coming the wrong way around a roundabout. His attitude was brazen and unrepentant with I asked him what he was at (I was told to "piss off" and that "sometimes" he went round roundabouts that way). So when I got home I called the traffic watch number and gave the details.

They asked me would I be willing to make a statement which I said yes to. So last Monday 2 Guards called to my house to follow up. After a discussion I said that I didn't feel it should go to court (they have more serious traffic and crime issues to follow up on) but I did make a formal statement. The Guard was pretty good and said that the formal recomendation would probably be for a caution (based on my position) and that he personally would "put a flea in the ear" of the driver. The Guard is to get back to me after the chat has happened.

So if you see someone breaking red lights or otherwise acting the maggot get their number and report them. The Guards won't take them to court unless you push for it, but they will talk to them and say that this time you are getting a caution, but the next time it could be a summons. Less people will be hurt and it will put the shíts up 90% of the people approached this way.

That number again: 1890 205 805

mackerski

MrPudding wrote:

What we need is more drivers running reds and getting t-boned.

As an alternative, and radical, proposal, why not just prosecute them? Why not redeploy some of the spend on speed cameras for motorways and put them where they can do some good? Red light enforcement cameras work really well in other countries.

Dermot

flav0rflav

sliabh wrote:

Trams alone are not sufficient.

Bollox they're only running every 10 minutes. Double, triple, quadruple the rate of them.

Any alternative or addition is five years away.

They should be building more already.

edit

just read about the damaged ones, and reduced service, what ****, haven't they paid for someone to fix the damn things????

Victor

MrPudding wrote:

What we need is more drivers running reds and getting t-boned. Perhaps we can improve the standard of driving in the city through natural selection. I of course hope that no innocent drivers or passengers in other cars or trams get hurt.

The car this morning wasn't just damaged - it was totally written off. Place a few of these at strategic locations as reminders.

sliabh

flav0rflav wrote:

Bollox they're only running every 10 minutes. Double, triple, quadruple the rate of them.

Any alternative or addition is five years away.

The Green line runs at a 5 minute interval at the moment and it's maxed out. Considering loading times there is no way an interval of more that every 3 minutes would be possible.

The original intention for the Green line (back when Mary O'Rourke signed off on the design so people should stop complaining about Brennan) was to have the line upgraded to Metro when the north/south metro line to the airport was built. It was never intended that trams alone would be sufficient on this line.

vinnyfitz

And another one this morning! (At 6.45 at the Capel St junction apparently.)

Drivers tend to skip lights early in the morning. Its clearly time they copped on.

Does someone really have to get killed before drivers respect the Luas for what it is?