Does the Interconnector represent value for money; is a Central Dublin metro better?

Metrobest

PHILIP ''I didn't see any ban on the P11 boards pertaining to you either''

When I type in the username and password it comes up: 'sorry, you have been banned for slagging off platfrom 11.' That is the level of these people: when you don't agree with them they ban you. Whatever happened to free speech, eh?

PHILIP '' Buildings get in the way of motorways and compulsory purchase orders are issued and they are demolished. For the greater good I'm afraid the same has to apply to railways.''

I agree with you, but in this situation I can't see it happening.

PHILIP ''Note that 4 out of the 5 developments on this page by Castlethorn in D15 are medium/high density''

I checked your link. Scroll down to the bottom and what's this? Oh, no less than five developments of low density houses with driveways and gardens. That's not going to deliver enough passengers to make a mero viable here.

PHILIP ''far higher than the densities you want to serve in Harolds X.''

With Harold's Cross, though, I see real potential for bus/metro interchange. That's why on the circle line I've placed stations at all the main entry points into central Dublin. I think your plan of the 39s all going to Castleknock station is nice in theory, but in practice people have an aversion to taking a 'roundabout' route into the CDR.. they will rather just take a bus directly into the centre.

PHILIP ''Being a hump back bridge doesn't reduce a bridges capacity, it's got 2 lanes, one for each direction!''

Two very small lanes, Philip. Have you every tried to cycle a bike along this road in heavy traffic? Dangerous! I shudder to think of the danger to all road users if this area was being used as a transport interchange. It's just not suitable for such a purpose.

PHILIP ''Do you propose not persuading people to move to rail based transport because the traffic is so bad?!''

Course not. I think everyone should have the option of high-quality metro transport, every day. Precisely this is what the Circle Line and North/South line would bring. Whether from Newbridge or the Navan Road, Harold's Cross or Heuston, everyone can use a Central Dublin Metro. In the case of the 3.4bn interconnector, only those on living beside a rail line get the benefit, everyone else is left empty-handed.

PHILIP ''So we pander to the roads lobby to keep them happy instead of investing in our existing rail infrastructure and trying to tempt people out of the traffic jams.''

No, but you have to strike a balance between sensible public transport provisons, and attractive road conditions for those who can't - or won't - use it. Amsterdam has fantastic public transport, and still there are traffic jams on the Ring Road. Traffic volumes in Dublin are not as insane as we are often told; rather, the road-space is just too inadequate for the volume of housing. This situation has also arisen from the crap public transport options available. And if you look at where the Interconnector lines run, 70 percent of Dublin city would be still nowhere near a rail line.

''I told you already, the N3 through blanchardstown is clogged with cars from Navan.''

Many of which are bound for the giant shopping centre and office park. The problem is we built all these industrial parks around the M50; only reachable by car. Neither Interconnector nor Metro can square this circle - the only thing to do is make the roads a little better for people who HAVE to use them. The vision of everyone happily zipping around on train lines is nice in theory, but it will never happen.

PHILIP ''Navan has 50,000 people''

Why don't you tot up how many people live in Walkinstown, Crumlin, Harold's Cross, Rathmines, Terenure, Rathfarnham, Ballinteer, Swords, etc etc etc. I think you'll have a few hundred thousand people all with one thing in common: they are nowhere near a rail station. Why would you like trains to zip along the green fields of Co. Meath to serve provincial Navan, but a Dubliner living in Walkinstown has to sit for an hour on a Dublin Bus. That can't be fair.

PHILIP ''So we pander to the roads lobby to keep them happy instead of investing in our existing rail infrastructure and trying to tempt people out of the traffic jams.''

The interconnector can't solve the traffic problems that bedevil all the main arterie routes in and out of Dublin. Only the Circle Line can.

PHILIP ''People move to Navan because they can't afford to live in Dublin.''

That's tough for them, then. But you can't have everything: cheap house in countryside equals long trip into central Dublin. Fact of life, not just in Dublin, but everywhere. Again, you have to look after the metropolitan areas before you start thinking of putting DART lines into provincial towns. And to do such a thing would encourage yet more sprawl, with developments springing up in villages near Navan - a '20 minute drive from Navan station' the estate agents would say.

PHILIP ''The proposed DART lines would be [1] Kildare-Malahide, [2] Maynooth-Bray, [3] Heuston-Howth''

I've been given conflicting reports of this. I don't blame anyone for being confused. The interconnector map looks like a cartoon. Where does Spencer Dock fit in, then? I'm sorry but you have to 'shout' at me, but I think that apart from the five or so P11 'regulars', I don't think your average person has a CLUE what the interconnectors routes are. For sure I don't; the routes seem to change every day to suit the position of whoever is making the argument.

Metrobest

Hi Gerard,

This is also the same Gerard from P11, I take it?

To answer your point, of course I know Metros can run over-ground. That's common in Sweden, Britain, France, Netherlands, Germany and the rest of Europe. The difference is, these are metro-standard lines that run on metro-only track. As far as I'm aware, no tube line in London shares track space with an intercity train or a diesal-powered train. The DART runs overground, shares track space with diesal, serves places like Greystones. You cannot call it metro, because is isn't metro. I would hate for people who aren't used to using a 'european' metro to think that DART is on a par with metro in Europe. It's not even close, my friend.

GerardKeating

Metrobest wrote:

Hi Gerard,
This is also the same Gerard from P11, I take it?

"from" in the sense of also posting to that message board. But I despair of their holy grail that is "Spenser Dock".

The "DART" could be a Metro system...

If the proposed Airport "service" was built as a DART, and 4-Tracked from the City to Rush. All InterCity service could be diverted from the Malihide/Howth to Connolly line and allowing that line to develop to a Metro level of service.

I posted "My Grand Scheme" on the P11 boards a while back. Basically a DART service from Sallins/Heuston/InterConnector/Connolly/Raheny/Howth

But my "interconnector" would like to the network at Connolly and not bother with Spensor Dock. the Luas extension can cover that.

Metrobest

Your idea of routing the enterprise and Drogheda lines via the airport sounds interesting. With the one stone it would kill two birds: Dublin airport gets hooked up to rail, capacity problems on the Northside DART are solved. Bravo!

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''I didn't see any ban on the P11 boards pertaining to you either''

When I type in the username and password it comes up: 'sorry, you have been banned for slagging off platfrom 11.' That is the level of these people: when you don't agree with them they ban you. Whatever happened to free speech, eh?

--If this is true it's wrong.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP '' Buildings get in the way of motorways and compulsory purchase orders are issued and they are demolished. For the greater good I'm afraid the same has to apply to railways.''

I agree with you, but in this situation I can't see it happening.

--So because you can't see it happening, it won't?

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Note that 4 out of the 5 developments on this page by Castlethorn in D15 are medium/high density''

I checked your link. Scroll down to the bottom and what's this? Oh, no less than five developments of low density houses with driveways and gardens. That's not going to deliver enough passengers to make a mero viable here.

--You're misrepresnting the facts again. Out of the 5 developments in D15 on that page, 4 are High/Medium density (that's 80%). 1 is semi-d's. The other semi-d developments on that page are not in D15, which is where you said there was no high density housing and you are wrong but seem inapable of admitting it.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''far higher than the densities you want to serve in Harolds X.''

With Harold's Cross, though, I see real potential for bus/metro interchange. That's why on the circle line I've placed stations at all the main entry points into central Dublin. I think your plan of the 39s all going to Castleknock station is nice in theory, but in practice people have an aversion to taking a 'roundabout' route into the CDR.. they will rather just take a bus directly into the centre.

--You know very little about the D15 area as displayed by your complete lack of knowledge relating to the current housing developments in the area. Why on earth would you be in a position to surmise where and how people might travel. Who says they're going to the city anyway, lots of people wrk in Intel and HP in Leixlip and in Sandyford and Bray etc, all reachable with a maximum of 1 change as opposed to 2 in your proposal.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Being a hump back bridge doesn't reduce a bridges capacity, it's got 2 lanes, one for each direction!''

Two very small lanes, Philip. Have you every tried to cycle a bike along this road in heavy traffic? Dangerous! I shudder to think of the danger to all road users if this area was being used as a transport interchange. It's just not suitable for such a purpose.

--Am I the only one who thinks this is a ridiculously poor argument for not building the interconnector? This bridge is fine and if it wasn't it could be replaced at minimal cost in relationship to the whole project.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Do you propose not persuading people to move to rail based transport because the traffic is so bad?!''

Course not. I think everyone should have the option of high-quality metro transport, every day. Precisely this is what the Circle Line and North/South line would bring. Whether from Newbridge or the Navan Road, Harold's Cross or Heuston, everyone can use a Central Dublin Metro. In the case of the 3.4bn interconnector, only those on living beside a rail line get the benefit, everyone else is left empty-handed.

--Everyone gets a go on your metro alright but it means more changes than neccessary and you said yourself that

Metrobest wrote:

people have an aversion to taking a 'roundabout' route into the CDR

and we've already discussed how people not in the immediate catchment area of rail based transport can integrate with buses, just like everywhere else in the world.

Metrobest wrote:

Traffic volumes in Dublin are not as insane as we are often told; rather, the road-space is just too inadequate for the volume of housing

--SO we do what? widen all the motorways leading into town to 3 lanes as you suggested previously?

Metrobest wrote:

And if you look at where the Interconnector lines run, 70 percent of Dublin city would be still nowhere near a rail line.

--I've never suggested that the Interconnector was the final solution. It's the best start to allow maximum development and capacity sweating of the DART system.

''I told you already, the N3 through blanchardstown is clogged with cars from Navan.''

Many of which are bound for the giant shopping centre and office park

--Wrong again, hardly any cars exit the N3 at the Blanchardstown Centre, the vast vast majority of morning cars are heading to the city or other sides of the city.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Navan has 50,000 people''

Why don't you tot up how many people live in Walkinstown, Crumlin, Harold's Cross, Rathmines, Terenure, Rathfarnham, Ballinteer, Swords, etc etc etc. I think you'll have a few hundred thousand people all with one thing in common: they are nowhere near a rail station. Why would you like trains to zip along the green fields of Co. Meath to serve provincial Navan, but a Dubliner living in Walkinstown has to sit for an hour on a Dublin Bus. That can't be fair.

--That Dubliner deserves the DART IMHO. I have already stated quite clearly that I believe the interconnector will allow a massive development of the DART network not least 'in the gap' between the Luas lines. That Dubliners life will be improved by removing cars from Meath from his citys streets and freeing up roadspace for far more QBCs and Luas extensions.

PHILIP ''So we pander to the roads lobby to keep them happy instead of investing in our existing rail infrastructure and trying to tempt people out of the traffic jams.''

Metrobest wrote:

The interconnector can't solve the traffic problems that bedevil all the main arterie routes in and out of Dublin. Only the Circle Line can.

--Now that's just plain wrong and a real over simplification of the issues. The Interconnector project spawned routes run parallel to the main arterial routes into the city
M1-Northern Line
N3-Midland Line (to Clonsilla) and Navan spur to Dunboyne/Navan with P&R
N4-Midland Line to Maynooth/Mullingar and Cork line to Lucan/Celbridge P&R
N7-Cork line to Kildare/Naas/Newbridge/and even to Portlaoise.
N11-Bray line

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''People move to Navan because they can't afford to live in Dublin.''

That's tough for them, then. But you can't have everything: cheap house in countryside equals long trip into central Dublin. Fact of life, not just in Dublin, but everywhere. Again, you have to look after the metropolitan areas before you start thinking of putting DART lines into provincial towns

--Wrong again, the main heavy rail arteries into all European cities have at least 4 tracks (usually many more) entering them to separate local commuter trains from Inter City/Freight and this work was carried out long before most cities even contemplated metros. We are way behind with our heavy rail infrastructure and this needs immediate rectification.

Metrobest wrote:

And to do such a thing would encourage yet more sprawl, with developments springing up in villages near Navan - a '20 minute drive from Navan station' the estate agents would say.

--And with good planning, what's wrong with that if it takes cars out of Dublin?

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''The proposed DART lines would be [1] Kildare-Malahide, [2] Maynooth-Bray, [3] Heuston-Howth''

I've been given conflicting reports of this. I don't blame anyone for being confused. The interconnector map looks like a cartoon. Where does Spencer Dock fit in, then? I'm sorry but you have to 'shout' at me, but I think that apart from the five or so P11 'regulars', I don't think your average person has a CLUE what the interconnectors routes are. For sure I don't

--for sure. I read the proposal hearing given to the Oireachteas Transport Committee by IE chief executive, Joe Meagher. He should know I reckon, even if you don't. The interconnector map is excellent btw folks, check out the from page of www.platform11.org and see what he's talking about. It's colour coded and everything to show how the lines would operate.

Metrobest

PHILIP ''If this is true it's wrong.''

It's true, sadly.

PHILIP ''Out of the 5 developments in D15 on that page, 4 are High/Medium density (that's 80%). 1 is semi-d's.''

Let's not get into pedantics about one private development firm. Your website shows a lot of low-density housing on it, though. That doesn't auger well.

PHILIP 'Why on earth would you be in a position to surmise where and how people might travel. Who says they're going to the city anyway, lots of people wrk in Intel and HP in Leixlip and in Sandyford and Bray etc, all reachable with a maximum of 1 change as opposed to 2 in your proposal.''

Many do. But they drive cars along the M50. Which is why that road needs another lane plastered onto it. Even with an interconnector, anyone working in the M50 ring will continue to use Car. The public transport isn't - and can never be - good enough for such commutes. We have to focus on where most people are going: central Dublin. Without a strong metro network here, what hope for transport anywhere else?

As far as changes go, even though making an extra change, a passenger on the Maynooth line changing in Drumcondra for the North/South line and Ranelagh for LUAS to Sandyford would reach their destination faster than going via Connolly or Interconnector.

PHILIP ''and we've already discussed how people not in the immediate catchment area of rail based transport can integrate with buses, just like everywhere else in the world.''

The thing is, the road network leading to Coolmine, Castleknock, Clonsilla and Ashtown is woeful. Of the four, I would suggest Ashtown has the largest potential: right next to the Ashtown roundabout the station would make an ideal interchange of 37,38,39,70 (from your beloved Dunboyne) and this would take pressure off the city end of the Navan Road.

PHILIP ''So we do what? widen all the motorways leading into town to 3 lanes as you suggested ''

Certainly the M50 needs it.

PHILIP ''Wrong again, the main heavy rail arteries into all European cities have at least 4 tracks''

But the equivilent of Navan in Holland, or Navan outside Paris, or Navan outside London is the exact same as the Irish Navan. When people choose to live in a provincial setting tens of miles from the city centre, they have to settle for poorer transport connections. Sorry, that's reality for you.

PHILIP ''And with good planning, what's wrong with that if it takes cars out of Dublin?''

There's a lot wrong. Towns like Navan don't have the ammenities to support such population development. Fine if they are working in Navan, that's terriffic. But when you've got dormant housing estates, lifeless villages Monday-Friday, one long commute, that's bad. What happens with schools, sewage, broadband internet, all this sort of thing? I think the government should give a tax break to people who buy houses within, say 6km of Dublin city centre, because here we have the vile situation of a Central Dublin population in decline, while the countryside of meath and kildare is being gobbled up by tacky, suburbanised, car-dependent housing estates. T

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Out of the 5 developments in D15 on that page, 4 are High/Medium density (that's 80%). 1 is semi-d's.''

Let's not get into pedantics about one private development firm. Your website shows a lot of low-density housing on it, though. That doesn't auger well.

--I'm not getting into pedantics about anything, You're ignoring hard facts. You claimed there was no high density housing along or in development along the Maynooth line. You are wrong, 80% of the developments of just that one company are high density.

PHILIP 'Why on earth would you be in a position to surmise where and how people might travel. Who says they're going to the city anyway, lots of people wrk in Intel and HP in Leixlip and in Sandyford and Bray etc, all reachable with a maximum of 1 change as opposed to 2 in your proposal.''

Metrobest wrote:

Many do. But they drive cars along the M50. Which is why that road needs another lane plastered onto it. Even with an interconnector, anyone working in the M50 ring will continue to use Car.
The public transport isn't - and can never be - good enough for such commutes

--I live in Hartstown. If I worked in Sandyford or Blackrock or ParkWest or Rialto or Inchicore there's no way I'd drive if the interconnector was built.

Metrobest wrote:

We have to focus on where most people are going: central Dublin. Without a strong metro network here, what hope for transport anywhere else?

--The Interconnector delivers people to the city centre with 0 changes.

Metrobest wrote:

As far as changes go, even though making an extra change, a passenger on the Maynooth line changing in Drumcondra for the North/South line and Ranelagh for LUAS to Sandyford would reach their destination faster than going via Connolly or Interconnector.

--You reckon? I reckon you're wrong. The interconnector built will show what the DART is capable of. The Broadstone trackbed could be reopened and submerge at Broadstone to travel underground to Tara Street/Pearse Street and Stephen's Green before heading south between the Red and Green Luas lines allowing people in Maynooth to reach Many more destinations with 0 changes. Even without this-there would still be just 1 change at Connolly when the Green line is extended (as it will be).

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''and we've already discussed how people not in the immediate catchment area of rail based transport can integrate with buses, just like everywhere else in the world.''

The thing is, the road network leading to Coolmine, Castleknock, Clonsilla and Ashtown is woeful

--No it isn't. It's clogged with cars driving into town. The road network around Blanchardstown is actually quite good, with many new distributor roads (such as Ongar) opened or planned.

Metrobest wrote:

Of the four, I would suggest Ashtown has the largest potential: right next to the Ashtown roundabout the station would make an ideal interchange of 37,38,39,70 (from your beloved Dunboyne) and this would take pressure off the city end of the Navan Road.

--Beside the massive Rathborne and Canal Bank developments http://www.rathborne.info/about_rath.html ? ANd why make people from Clonsilla travel all the way to Ashtown to transfer to the higher speed and capacity of DART instead of transfering at Clonsilla??? Anyway, the capacity isn't there for all these people because of the Connolly bottleneck (which the interconnector removes)

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''So we do what? widen all the motorways leading into town to 3 lanes as you suggested ''
Certainly the M50 needs it.

--The M50 is an orbital motorway which should have been 3 lanes from day one. I asked you would you widen all the approach roads to the city to three lanes and you didn't answer that question.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Wrong again, the main heavy rail arteries into all European cities have at least 4 tracks''

But the equivilent of Navan in Holland, or Navan outside Paris, or Navan outside London is the exact same as the Irish Navan. When people choose to live in a provincial setting tens of miles from the city centre, they have to settle for poorer transport connections. Sorry, that's reality for you.

--Your point is what? What has Navans position in relation to Dublin got to do with Quad tracking the Northern Line and Kildare route (the only routes I ever mentioned quad tracking)? It is imperative that we quad these lines to allow Inter City services to be separated from commuter services. And your point about poorer transport connections for people who can't afford to live nearer Dublin is true with your mentality even though excellent transport links are a very real proposition for these people.

Metrobest wrote:

There's a lot wrong. Towns like Navan don't have the ammenities to support such population development. Fine if they are working in Navan, that's terriffic. But when you've got dormant housing estates, lifeless villages Monday-Friday, one long commute, that's bad. What happens with schools, sewage, broadband internet, all this sort of thing? I think the government should give a tax break to people who buy houses within, say 6km of Dublin city centre, because here we have the vile situation of a Central Dublin population in decline, while the countryside of meath and kildare is being gobbled up by tacky, suburbanised, car-dependent housing estates.

--Navan and other satellite towns can support thse people locally and no matter where these people live these amenities will have to be provided and tax breaks for people who can afford to purchase in Dublin would be an insult to those who cannot Sir.

GerardKeating

Metrobest wrote:

I can't believe you can say that. 16 trains means 16 trains divided between Bray/Maynooth, Bray/howth and Bray/Malahide. It's a three-way split.

But there is no such split in the plans. The "Interconnector" as currently planned is for all DARTS from Bray to go to Maynooth. None go to Malihide/Howth. Those areas are to be services from Kildare..

GerardKeating

Metrobest wrote:

A train every 10 minutes is the best Maynooth can hope for if the interconnector gets the nod, so it won't actually deliver that much extra peak capacity.

Current peak time is two trains an hour from Leixlip to Connolly, so every 10 minutes is 6 trains an hour, a 300% increase.

murphaph

So we've established that Metrobest states that there is no high density housing along the routes the interconnector would upgrade. He's clearly wrong as anyone who lives in these places or who clicks the links I supplied to him knows. He also states that the minimum improvement we could expect (6 trains per hour is the bare minimum we could expect as there will be capacity for 16 trains per hour over the loop line whic IE states will be dedicated to the Maynooth-Bray line) ,at 300%, is a poor improvement. 300% man! that's a threefold increase and that's the bare minimum we could expect to Maynooth/Bray/Kildare/Malahide/Howth/Possibly Airport and ALL STOPS IN BETWEEN THESE TERMINII, ie metropolitan Dublin!

The interconnector is the first second phase of the DART and not the last. People living in Swords could well get a spur to DART once the capacity issues at Connolly are taken care of with the interconnector and quad tracking strategic sections of track coupled with electrification.

Just as a side note, and yet again demonstrating Iarnrod Eireanns Engineering Departments foresight...........

The Midland line (the one that runs directly from platform 7 at Connolly along the canal south of Croke Park to Glasnevin Junction) has been relayed with CWR track, concrete sleepers (that IE make themselves!) and the track bed has been lowered under the over bridges to allow easy electrification of this 'express route' from Maynooth to Connolly platform 7 and/or Spencer Dock surface station when it is opened. This company has been starved of funding for decades and it's a miracle the railways in Ireland are still running, nevermind experiencing the rebirth that they are.

Metrobest

PHILIP ''You claimed there was no high density housing along or in development along the Maynooth line. You are wrong, 80% of the developments of just that one company are high density.''

Low-density housing in suburbia leads to massive traffic congestion and infrastructural costs. Walk around most of Dublin 15 and as far as the eye can see, low density dominates. Apartments are scarce. In Amsterdam all new developments are four or five stories high. In Dublin this is the exception, not the rule. Castlethorn is right to boast it is setting new architectural standards; it's new because it hasn't been done before, it's unique because all other development taking place IS unsustainable suburban estates with back gardens and driveways and high walls.

PHILIP ''I live in Hartstown. If I worked in Sandyford or Blackrock or ParkWest or Rialto or Inchicore there's no way I'd drive if the interconnector was built.

But I think you'll find a lot of people aren't as easily coaxed into public transport as you are. The dynamic of Dublin is that like a giant asterix most people gravitate towards the centre. You could have submarines whizzing from outer-suburb to outer-suburb; the roads would still be stuffed with Car.

PHILIP ''The Interconnector delivers people to the city centre with 0 changes.''

But it only helps people who already live near a station. It brings rail to hardly any new population centres in central Dublin.

PHILIP ''And why make people from Clonsilla travel all the way to Ashtown to transfer to the higher speed and capacity of''

Ashtown is a better interchange point; it connects with all the Dublin 15 interchange points. To Drumcondra passengers would be two stops away from changing onto the North/South or Circle Lines.

PHILIP ''I asked you would you widen all the approach roads to the city to three lanes and you didn't answer that question.''

In central Dublin, no. In suburban Dublin, yes. So roads like the Navan Road outbound from Astown would get an extra lane, the Navan Road inbound would stay the way it is, encouraging people to leap into a train at Ashtown.

PHILIP ''Navan and other satellite towns can support thse people locally and no matter where these people live these amenities will have to be provided and tax breaks for people who can afford to purchase in Dublin would be an insult to those who cannot Sir.''

They shouldn't have to. Plenty of space is vacant in Central Dublin, waiting for development to sprout up. Why build in Navan when you can build in Smithfield, or Cork Street, or Harold's Cross. Madness.

You seem happy that Dublin is extending further and further outwards like a demented spider's web. It shouldn't be happening. Amsterdam has the same population as Dublin contained within a geographical area half the size. We have a choice: continue as we are (which leads to further suburban sprawl) or concentrate infrastructure in central Dublin (which like a magnet will suck people towards the central area, encouraging high-density development there.)

Ps. Philip. Interesting that Platfrom 11 has removed the Dublin Metro forum. Also my posts have been buried deep inside some other of their forums. What an act of cowardice. Afraid of someone challenging their position, they have banned me. That's something you usually associate with dictatorial regimes, not ''public'' websites. How nice of them to 'unban' me once they win the argument. How very democratic indeed.

People can make up their own minds. They can agree with me or disagree. I'm just putting forward a plan that I think can make Dublin a better place. Living in Amsterdam I can see what's wrong with Dublin's transport, and I can see the ways to fix it. People are entitled to challenge my views. That, I relish. And I can assure you I will never advocate the banning of those who, as P11 would put it, ''fail to understand'' me.

Hecate

Living in Amsterdam I can see what's wrong with Dublin's transport

?

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''You claimed there was no high density housing along or in development along the Maynooth line. You are wrong, 80% of the developments of just that one company are high density.''

Low-density housing in suburbia leads to massive traffic congestion and infrastructural costs. Walk around most of Dublin 15 and as far as the eye can see, low density dominates. Apartments are scarce. In Amsterdam all new developments are four or five stories high. In Dublin this is the exception, not the rule. Castlethorn is right to boast it is setting new architectural standards; it's new because it hasn't been done before, it's unique because all other development taking place IS unsustainable suburban estates with back gardens and driveways and high walls.

--Again with the assumptions. You are stating categorically that Castlethorn are the only high density developer. This is untrue and everyone knows it's untrue. Making things up won't help your argument any. To put some of this in context, a planning application for Coolmine was rejected recently because the developer wanted to go to 7 storeys! This in an area of nothing but sprawl? The development will proceed at 5 storey height. 7 storeys was deemed too high in comparison to the 4 storeys of the neighbouring Woodbrook Grove development, again, in an area with nothing but sprawl? D15 is changing far more rapidly than the insufficient rail line that serves it my friend.

PHILIP ''I live in Hartstown. If I worked in Sandyford or Blackrock or ParkWest or Rialto or Inchicore there's no way I'd drive if the interconnector was built.

Metrobest wrote:

But I think you'll find a lot of people aren't as easily coaxed into public transport as you are. The dynamic of Dublin is that like a giant asterix most people gravitate towards the centre. You could have submarines whizzing from outer-suburb to outer-suburb; the roads would still be stuffed with Car.

--wtf? Dublin has changed a lot since you left it mate. I live AND work in D15. My neighbour works in Tallaght. My other neighbour works in Swords. At's true a lot of people work in the CBD but not the majority.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''The Interconnector delivers people to the city centre with 0 changes.''

But it only helps people who already live near a station. It brings rail to hardly any new population centres in central Dublin.

--Not true. The massive capacity unleashed by interconnector/electrification mean new stations such as those to be built between Coolmine and Clonsilla and between Ashtown and Broombridge will serve those living near these areas. The shear capacity will draw yet more via a 1 change bus-rail journey to the city centre (and beyond). Other new stations are to be constructed at Adamstown (Lucan new town), Clondalkin station is to be moved west, Cherry Orchard ststion is a stones throw from town yet nobody uses it to get to town. Why is this I hear you ask. Well, it's because trains can only run to Heuston. The interconnector means these trains can continue to Christchurch, Stephens Green, Pearse Station, Spencer Dock (www.spencerdock.ie) and onwards to Malahide/Drogheda. Cherry Orchard ststion as actually going to be relocated to Park West where another new high density town is planned by Dublin City Council. The interconnector, as I have told you a number of times before, will also free up the capacity constraints at Connolly allowing the Navan/Dunboyne spur to be reopened. I know you are in favour of punishing people for not being able to afford to live in central Dublin by making them sit in traffic jams all along the N3 etc. and the very though of providing rail transport to these people sickens you.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''And why make people from Clonsilla travel all the way to Ashtown to transfer to the higher speed and capacity of''

Ashtown is a better interchange point; it connects with all the Dublin 15 interchange points. To Drumcondra passengers would be two stops away from changing onto the North/South or Circle Lines.

--Your 'An Lar' mindset is really shining through here. Why does Ashtown Station (situated on a very narrow road-have you ever been there or are you just looking at a map?) strike you as a better transfer point for D15 residents? If I live in Westend apartment complex beside the Blanchardstwn centre, the nearest station to me would be the proposed (funding secured) station between Coolmine and Clonsilla and failing that either Coolmine or Clonsilla are WAY closer to this large apartment development yet you propose ferrying them all the way to Ashtown down the clogged N3 sharing the roadspace with the 'poor people' who live in Navan!

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''I asked you would you widen all the approach roads to the city to three lanes and you didn't answer that question.''

In central Dublin, no. In suburban Dublin, yes. So roads like the Navan Road outbound from Astown would get an extra lane, the Navan Road inbound would stay the way it is, encouraging people to leap into a train at Ashtown.

--Hmmm where would they park their cars? The land has been taken for, what's this? http://www.rathborne.info/siteplan/location.html and to show the scale of this development in 'sprawling suburbia' take a look at the artists conception of the central boulevard http://www.rathborne.info/about_rath.html. And in any case, you want them to leap into what train? the 2 trains per hour at peak times? They have a total capacity of app. 4000 (using 8 car sets). That capacity is already swallowed up by the people living here, let alone the massive new customer base these developments will provide.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Navan and other satellite towns can support thse people locally and no matter where these people live these amenities will have to be provided and tax breaks for people who can afford to purchase in Dublin would be an insult to those who cannot Sir.''

They shouldn't have to. Plenty of space is vacant in Central Dublin, waiting for development to sprout up. Why build in Navan when you can build in Smithfield, or Cork Street, or Harold's Cross. Madness.

--You're ignoring awkward facts again, like preservation orders and listed buildings. All 'infill' development land in cenral Dublin sells for an arm and a leg and is populated with apartment blocks nowadays. Where is this plenty of space? we can't build on every square inch of green even in the city centre we must provide places for children to play etc.

Metrobest wrote:

You seem happy that Dublin is extending further and further outwards like a demented spider's web. It shouldn't be happening. Amsterdam has the same population as Dublin contained within a geographical area half the size. We have a choice: continue as we are (which leads to further suburban sprawl) or concentrate infrastructure in central Dublin (which like a magnet will suck people towards the central area, encouraging high-density development there.)

--Nothing could be further from the truth. I am a big fan of High density housing and will be quite happy to move into an apartment in Munich very soon. Dublin historically sprawled and now that trend is being arrested by high density housing in all the places I have mentioned. I like high density, however, we should not consider it as the ony way to live. The Netherlands is a very special case and does not compare well to Ireland. The Netherlands is the most densely populated country in Europe (and I believe since HK went back to China, the world). Ireland is actually the most sparsely populated country in Europe.

Metrobest wrote:

Ps. Philip. Interesting that Platfrom 11 has removed the Dublin Metro forum. Also my posts have been buried deep inside some other of their forums. What an act of cowardice. Afraid of someone challenging their position, they have banned me. That's something you usually associate with dictatorial regimes, not ''public'' websites. How nice of them to 'unban' me once they win the argument. How very democratic indeed.

--I was intrigued about this so I asked them about it. They claim that they will be launching a very high profile public campaign shortly and joe public will be directed towards their site. As there are only 2 proposals before government (interconnector v RPAs Airport Metro (which you are against)) they do not want 'newbies' to the debate being confused with made up proposals like yours in case they should thaink that that's what 'metro' means, instead of the solitary, poorly connecting line it is.

Metrobest wrote:

People can make up their own minds. They can agree with me or disagree. I'm just putting forward a plan that I think can make Dublin a better place. Living in Amsterdam I can see what's wrong with Dublin's transport, and I can see the ways to fix it

--You live in an entirely different city with a different layout in terms of densities. Dublin is changing its attitude to high density but there are still large areas of houses with gardens that need quality public transport and this can be provide by rail/rail and rail/bus combinations. What you are proposing goes way beyond a transport solution-you are talking about completely rebuilding Dublin from scratch to fit in with you metro!

Metrobest wrote:

People are entitled to challenge my views. That, I relish. And I can assure you I will never advocate the banning of those who, as P11 would put it, ''fail to understand'' me

--I enjoy healthy debate also. People are entitled to add to this debate and I'd like to hear how people feel about the interconnector. Pull no punches folks!

Metrobest

PHLIP ''a planning application for Coolmine was rejected recently because the developer wanted to go to 7 storeys! This in an area of nothing but sprawl?''

You are deliberately choosing the few examples of high-rise development, and claiming that EVERY development being built in Dublin 15 meets this criteria. Simply untrue. 95 percent of Laurel Lodge consists of large semi-Ds with front and rear gardens. Even on Castlethorn's list of you'll see two developments - the Courtyard in Clonsilla and Riverwood in Castleknock - featuring two-storey buildings. Not high-rise.

Amsterdam and Dublin ARE compatible. If you look at a map of Amsterdam on this link http://www.gvb.nl/engels/default.htm you wil see the yellow areas where development has clustered right next to the centre. Ten years ago, a lot of development in the West and North didn't exist. The development that's taken place has been concentrated, high-rise developments within 6KM of Amsterdam's historical centre. That's why the city of Amsterdam is building the North/South line to look after the two-hundred thousand people in the Central Amsterdam area who don't have metro. http://www.ivv.amsterdam.nl/nzlijn/english/trace.htm?PHPSESSID=f2de42dfda497f037e5886bdeda1cc50
The comparisons ARE valid. Twenty years ago Amsterdam stood where Dublin stands now. Thirty years ago Amsterdam had no metro at all. The right decisions were taken. So Amsterdam built metros that encourage people to live and do business in the Central Amsterdam district. These links have made it the city it is today. Your Interconnector encourages sprawl, because it incentivises people to live far out from central Dublin, while giving little/no advantage to existing Dubliners.

PHILIP ''Why does Ashtown Station strike you as a better transfer point for D15 residents? If I live in Westend apartment complex beside the Blanchardstwn centre...''

Three-lane the Navan Road outbound from the Ashtown Roundabout. Three-lanes would benefit the good people of Dunboyne and Navan. Road and rail aren't incompatible. An underground car park could link to the station platfrom; there's plenty of space to widen the road into Ashtown station. For public transport, a bus could zip from Westend to Ashtown in ten minutes along the bus lane. Blanchardstown Roundabout to Ashtown is a super-quick trip. A bus would probably take longer to navigate Blanch village towards Castleknock than it would to reach Ashtown. And have you seen the traffic where the Bell pub is each morning? Mayhem. It's a tiny road. There is no way to have a reliable bus connection to Castleknock station. Coolmine is the same story. Ashtown is the most-underused station on this line; therefore it is the one that can accomodate the greatest increase in passengers.

PHILIP ''and the very though of providing rail transport to these people sickens you.''

Don't exaggerate, dear. In an ideal world they would have a rail line. Ideal the world is not. So we have to take care of central Dublin first. Navan can wait. Its residents are well used to it by now!

PHILIP ''Where is this plenty of space?''

The Phoenix Park near Heuston, sections of Harold's Cross, Cork Street, Dolphin's Barn area. Lots of room for SUSTAINABLE, metropolitan development here. But you'd prefer thousands of new semi-Ds in unspoilt rural areas twenty minutes' drive from Navan train station. Bizarre.

PHILIP ''they do not want 'newbies' to the debate being confused with made up proposals like yours in case they should thaink that that's what 'metro' means, instead of the solitary, poorly connecting line it is.''

Hmm, sounds very Orwellian to me. Obviously they are not very confident in their own arguments. And every proposal is ''made-up''. That's why it's a proposal. You PROPOSE something. The Interconnector plan didn't drop out of the sky; somebody dreamed it up. The supporters of the Interconnectot have an agenda. They want to stifle debate and muzzle any criticism of their plans. Let them do that if they wish. In twenty years time, we will see how Dublin has developed. Under my plan it would resemble sustainable Amsterdam. Under their plan it will resemble sprawling LA, and the next thing you know there'll be a campaign to extend the 'metro' to Athlone and Edgeworthstown, Co. Longford.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

Is this the same Philip who posts on Platfrom 11? If so you should declare your interest.

Anything to delare yourself? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=126578

Oh do you have a map of your proposal? Please note the large amount of empty space around Harold's Cross, especially the hospice, cemetary and park.

silverside

In fairness Harold's cross is pretty much high-density already (well the end near the Canal anyway) - a lot of the old buildings on the main road to Tempelogue look like they are ready to be knocked down and replaced with apartments.

Without taking sides too much, an advantage of the DTO plan is that stations in places like Harold's Cross, Kimmage, etc can be built underground where necessary.

If the Madrid model was followed these stations and new lines need not take too much time/money.

Now that Charlie McCreevy is gone, Harney,Brennan seemed to favour the RPA metro plan, and Bertie seemed impressed with Manolo the spanish engineer. On the other hand Irish Rail seem to know what they are about under their new chief also.

I think there is more heat than light on this thread. I would like to see both the interconnector and the airport metro built - I don't think serving swords/the airport via a spur off a congested mainline is the way forward.

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

You are deliberately choosing the few examples of high-rise development, and claiming that EVERY development being built in Dublin 15 meets this criteria. Simply untrue. 95 percent of Laurel Lodge consists of large semi-Ds with front and rear gardens.

--You stated there was no high density in D15 a while back, now you've stopped stating what you now know to be incorrect and are bringing into the debate a housing estate built well before the Celtic Tiger and the massive demand for housing we're now seeing.

Metrobest wrote:

Your Interconnector encourages sprawl, because it incentivises people to live far out from central Dublin, while giving little/no advantage to existing Dubliners.

--I've listed ad nauseum the places in Dublin as well as everywhere else that the interconnector gives advantage to. You just choose to ignore them because they don't fit in with your new lines on a map.

Metrobest wrote:

Three-lane the Navan Road outbound from the Ashtown Roundabout. Three-lanes would benefit the good people of Dunboyne and Navan. Road and rail aren't incompatible. An underground car park could link to the station platfrom

--huh? underground car park? where in relation to the station would it go and how many storeys underground? and yet again I ask what trains are these people going to board? I told you there are about 4000 seats per hour at peak through Ashtown as the system currently stands. This could be 32,000 with the interconnector.

Metrobest wrote:

there's plenty of space to widen the road into Ashtown station

--Again, no point with the dire capacity on the line at present, all caused by the bottleneck at Connolly that the interconnector solves once and for all.

Metrobest wrote:

For public transport, a bus could zip from Westend to Ashtown in ten minutes along the bus lane. Blanchardstown Roundabout to Ashtown is a super-quick trip. A bus would probably take longer to navigate Blanch village towards Castleknock than it would to reach Ashtown. And have you seen the traffic where the Bell pub is each morning? Mayhem. It's a tiny road. There is no way to have a reliable bus connection to Castleknock station. Coolmine is the same story

.
--Again you completely ignored what I said. The ideal station would be the station that Castlethorn are building between Clonsilla and Coolmine. I never even mentioned Castleknock station wrt to this particular point. Read my posts and reply to them, not to the voices in your head.

Metrobest wrote:

Ashtown is the most-underused station on this line; therefore it is the one that can accomodate the greatest increase in passengers.

--Explain please. The capacity of a rail system is principally governed by the size and frequency of trains, not by station patronage. Also, you obviously didn't check the links I provided you showing the massive Rathborne and Canal Bank developments going up beside Ashtown. Ashtowns capacity will be swallowed up with these. In any case, it surprises me little that you state incorrectly that Ashtown is the most under used station on this line when anybody that travels on it (and Iarnros Eireann) will tell you its Broombridge. You just can't help making things up cab you?

Metrobest wrote:

In an ideal world they would have a rail line. Ideal the world is not. So we have to take care of central Dublin first. Navan can wait. Its residents are well used to it by now!

--Hmmm, what do people make of this I wonder. You would do well to remember that 2/3 of Irelands taxpayers reside outside Dublin and would not be overly pleased with your comments that 'we' have to take care of central Dublin with 'their' money. In an ideal world then Navan should have a rail line you say? A wile back you made out that this encourages urban sprawl so which is it?

Metrobest wrote:

The Phoenix Park near Heuston, sections of Harold's Cross, Cork Street, Dolphin's Barn area. Lots of room for SUSTAINABLE, metropolitan development here. But you'd prefer thousands of new semi-Ds in unspoilt rural areas twenty minutes' drive from Navan train station. Bizarre.

--I have stated on record that I am in favour of higher density developments where appropriate. Building in the Phoenix Park? Are you serious? You think buiding on parks is sustainable development? Infill sites in Harolds X etc are snapped up in no time and apartments are promptly built on them at the moment. This is clearly not enough to satisfy demand.

Metrobest wrote:

And every proposal is ''made-up''. That's why it's a proposal. You PROPOSE something. The Interconnector plan didn't drop out of the sky; somebody dreamed it up

--You're right. IE have spent a lot of time and effort costing and planning the interconnector for a number of years now. The money is now available and they presented their proposal to government. Unlike IE, you have drawn lines on a map and said the metr should go here and there with no idea of cost but to compare it to Amsterdams metro. This is incredibly over simplistic with different labour, insurance and geology to name but a few differences. There are only 2 proposals before governemnt now and one of them will win. Which would you prefer to see built out of interest? interconnector or the RPA Airport Metro?

Metrobest wrote:

The supporters of the Interconnectot have an agenda. They want to stifle debate and muzzle any criticism of their plans. Let them do that if they wish. In twenty years time, we will see how Dublin has developed. Under my plan it would resemble sustainable Amsterdam. Under their plan it will resemble sprawling LA

--unless you have psychic abilities as well then I reckon it's a bit far fetched to foretell the future. I have an agenda, everyone has an agenda in life. Have I attempted to stifle this debate? I welcome your comments because each one strengthens the case for the interconnector and I'm confident the sensible, realistic readers of this board will see that.

murphaph

silverside wrote:

Without taking sides too much, an advantage of the DTO plan is that stations in places like Harold's Cross, Kimmage, etc can be built underground where necessary.

--Hi silverside. I think it should be pointed out that the DTO plans mean nothing in practice. They are more lines on maps with no money to fund them all. There are only 2 proposals before government now. 1 of them will receive funding, the other will have to wait or not get built at all. The proposals are the IE interconnector and the RPA single metro line to the Airport from the Green.

silverside wrote:

I think there is more heat than light on this thread. I would like to see both the interconnector and the airport metro built - I don't think serving swords/the airport via a spur off a congested mainline is the way forward

--Unfortunately one will have to wait (at best) for a few years before funding becomes available again. The bit about the congested mainline would be addressed by quad tracking the Northern Line to beyond Howth Jcn. This will completely separate Inter City services from DART. This is part of the 'Dublin Rail Plan' which is the proposal that contains the interconnector. There is a lot more to what has become known as the interconnector proposal than just a tunnel with 5 underground stations right through the city centre.Hope this helps clear some things up. I know there is a lot of confusion out there and that's partly governments fault for not being more open with the people.

Metrobest

PHILIP,
I don't want to get bogged down in a debate about Dublin 15. You keep trying to argue with me; why? I agree with a lot of what you're saying: that the Maynooth line deserves more trains. I think a ten minute frequency would work well. And I agree the line should be electrified.

We differ in that you think the Interconnector will add lots of extra capacity; I am more sceptical. You think Maynooth/Bray DARTs can run at high frequency; I don't: I think with Arrows and intercities sharing trackspace on the southside line, you can't have smooth frequencies of trains running through the loop line from Bray to Maynooth. That's a circle you can't square.

PHILIP ''I've listed ad nauseum the places in Dublin as well as everywhere else that the interconnector gives advantage to.''

You won't find me quibbling that an Interconnector would bring extra capacity: but only to EXISTING lines. The extent of the capacity is also something I doubt. People on P11 have been mentioning figures of 200,000 new rail passengers; these are theoretical figures I can't see being achieved in practice.

So why am I against the Interconnector? Simple. I don't think it delivers enough extra passengers. A Circle and North/South line would delivers tonnes more passengers for a similar cost. And I think the future lies in URBAN rail, not provincial rail.

What I want to create is a central Dublin metro bringing benefits to NEW rail users in areas that have never had a rail option before. Dublin deserves this and shouldn't have to make do with a third-rate bus network.

PHILIP ''Building in the Phoenix Park? Are you serious?''

Yes. Radical needs, radical solutions. A lot of the Phoenix Park is land that's never used by anybody. Why not make attractive places for people to live and put it to good use? I'm thinking of the Parkgate street end near Garda HQ. Surely it wouldn't hurt to shave a few hectares off this side of the Park and build high-density housing? The deer will still have plenty of room to run around!

PHILIP ''This is incredibly over simplistic with different labour, insurance and geology to name but a few differences.''

Insurance costs are higher in the Netherlands, labour laws stricter and the geology more complicated. Look at my link above: you'll see the line runs under a massive harbour and goes 60ft below surface under the oldest historical centre of Europe. Tunneling Dublin is a doddle by comparison. Again I ask, why a 3.4bn Interconnector when we can have two Metro lines at 1.5bn a piece? Amsterdam is doing it, so can Dublin.

PHILIP ''There are only 2 proposals before governemnt now and one of them will win.''

Well that's too bad. Because neither of these proposals brings value for money to the taxpayer. The Airport Metro is a vanity project, nice for the tourists but of little use to the commuting Dubliner. The Interconnector is nice for people who already have access to rail, but it does very little to relieve traffic pressure in central Dublin; it fails to bring rail to metropolitan areas in Dublin, and it doesn't deliver enough extra passengers to justify its (exorbitant) cost. Plus it spawns yet more suburban sprawl; so a central Dublin Metro, on the other hand, draws people into the central Dublin area and keeps the soul of the city in tact.

Metrobest

VICTOR ''Anything to delare yourself?''

Nothing, Victor, I'm simply an Irish national living in Amsterdam. I am left-orientated socially, right-economically. No political party affiliations whatsoever.

I have lived in three European capital cities and have developed a nose for how good public transport works. Simply I am an interested bystander, watching as I see this debate take shape over Dublin's future. Part of my reason for leaving Dublin was the bad PT. If I come back to live in Dublin, I would like to see in our capital city what EVERY OTHER prominent city of Dublin's size has: a proper, central metro system. There you have it.

maxheadroom

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP,
We differ in that you think the Interconnector will add lots of extra capacity; I am more sceptical. You think Maynooth/Bray DARTs can run at high frequency; I don't: I think with Arrows and intercities sharing trackspace on the southside line, you can't have smooth frequencies of trains running through the loop line from Bray to Maynooth. That's a circle you can't square.

Its an imaginary circle, much like your circle line. With the Dublin Rail plan, there will be no more arrows. The brand will cease to exist. Anyway, arrows operate from heuston to kildare at present, they go nowhere near the loop line, the southern line to bray or the maynooth line.

EDIT: After some more research, it appears there is a very infrequent and irregular service to arklow using arrow railcars. However, it is so infrequent I can't see it being a problem.

Southern intercities will have to contend with the twin track coastal route in the south, but they're doing that already. They could run the dart to a clockface frequency of every 10 or 7.5 minutes right now if it wasn't for the loop line's constraints. Thats with all the comingled traffic on both the southern and northern legs of the current dart line. When you consider the relatively low frequency of non commuter rail on the southern leg of this line (it is a coastal line to rosslare - not exactlly a high traffic stretch of track...), you can't seriously consider this as an impediment to the success of the maynooth - bray route.

Even if they go from 16 trains p/h to 12 trains p/h to facilitate other train movements on the southern track (a number I pulled out of the air, btw), that's still a train every 5 minutes. That's metro level service.

Look at this map of the proposed dublin rail plan before you make any more embarrasing gaffes about what the proposal is or isn't.

Metrobest wrote:

You won't find me quibbling that an Interconnector would bring extra capacity: but only to EXISTING lines.

What you seem incabable of grasping is that this is the entire point. We get the benefits of a modern, integrated suburban and urban railway system without having to invest in an entirely new system which, quite frankly, this country can afford but will never pay for. Those are the political realities of the situation. Rail will not have as big a budget as road for a long long time to come. Perhaps when the Dublin Rail Plan is successful then it will be easier to sell rail than it currently is.

Metrobest wrote:

So why am I against the Interconnector? Simple. I don't think it delivers enough extra passengers. A Circle and North/South line would delivers tonnes more passengers for a similar cost. And I think the future lies in URBAN rail, not provincial rail.

I think that for whatever reason, you've convinced yourself that people won't use the inner stations on these lines as anything other than terminating points for people commuting in from the first stop on each line. This isn't about moving people from maynooth to the city centre, its about movin everyone living along that line to anywhere else on that line or any other line in the entire urban / suburban network. With one change. That's a rail system we can be proud of, and one we can then look at expanding with more lines (I happen to believe that we need a north / south line to serve the north west and south west parts of the city, but its useless until we get the network fixed first)

The dublin rail plan creates both an urban and suburban rail network, integrates them completely, and provides a high level of service to its passengers. Why not accept it as a good starting point?

Metrobest wrote:

What I want to create is a central Dublin metro bringing benefits to NEW rail users in areas that have never had a rail option before. Dublin deserves this and shouldn't have to make do with a third-rate bus network.

How about a first rate bus network, integrated with a top notch suburban / urban railway system?

How about bringing rail to these people by building extra lines after we've made the case for an integrated transport solution for Dublin, rather than several unintegrated, overly expensive projects that do not even co-ordinate to try and solve the problem?

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''There are only 2 proposals before governemnt now and one of them will win.''

Well that's too bad. Because neither of these proposals brings value for money to the taxpayer. The Airport Metro is a vanity project, nice for the tourists but of little use to the commuting Dubliner. The Interconnector is nice for people who already have access to rail, but it does very little to relieve traffic pressure in central Dublin; it fails to bring rail to metropolitan areas in Dublin, and it doesn't deliver enough extra passengers to justify its (exorbitant) cost. Plus it spawns yet more suburban sprawl; so a central Dublin Metro, on the other hand, draws people into the central Dublin area and keeps the soul of the city in tact.

You've got to be kidding me. Do you understand anything about how politics works? Do you know how long its taken to even get these two options considered?

The dublin rail plan creates an integrated city area network whick then sperads out to the suburbs. If you're so sure about rail drawing in high density development, then this plan creates two new corridors of high density development, along with a central loop (which is already pretty high density. In fact, rail is not needed as an incentive for high density housing development inside the city centre area, its happening already)

Do me a favour. Take this image and draw your circle line on it, and show me where it is significantly better in the city area.

Victor

OK, you two whingeing bitches can take your private little spammy arguments elsewhere or theres banning in the offing. And learn to use the [quote] system properly.

Victor

On the discussion on population density, kindly look at http://www.dublin.ie/index.asp?locID=246&docID=232

For a practical demonstration. (a) Site on left has 19 four-bedroomed three-storey house. Typical population 76.* (b) Site on right has 1 two-bedroomed, 2 three-bedroomed and 3 four-bedroomed houses (all two-storey). Typical population 21.

Based on one-bedroomed = 1.5 people, two-bedroomed = 2.5 people, three-bedroomed = 3.5 people and four-bedroomed = 4 people.

sliabh

I always thought of high density as collections of dedicated purpose appartment blocks. Like what you see circling the IFSC these days. Rather than a terrace of 3 and 4 bedroom houses in Rathmines. That more fits my idea of medium density.

murphaph

For fear of being banned by Victor I shall cease and desist!

I belive Maxheadroom made most of the points I would have countered with anyway. Please though, do as Max asks and draw out your route on his map and post it here so we can all see.

You know nothing (as evidenced by your lack of knowledge about Ashtown station and your fantasies about all these inter city trains from ROSSLARE clogging the Bray DART line, btw, there are things called pasing loops along that track where trains can 'overtake' each other) about the workings of the existing rail network and its deficencies which can be solved with the Dublin Rail Plan (aka interconnector). Once these are solved we can massively expand Dublin Area Rapid Transit (DART) to new locations. I say new locations because the Dublin Rail Plan itself will draw in new patrons in their thousands.

Sliabh,
I agree with your comments concerning Rathmines etc, these are not high density areas at all. A lot of 2 up 2 downs etc, no better than 'sprawling D15'!! Metrobest wants to build a metro to these people (who don't drive into the city anyway) before removing cars from the N1, N3, N4, N7, N11 all spilling into the city every morning.

One final point before I finish here.............Metrobest asked me why I was arguing with him over D15 (after he'd completely lost the argument of course). I tell him this: I argued with you because you were making things up and ignoring facts. Anyone who has followed this thread will realise that when presented with a fact that doesn't fit your argument, you ignore it! how convenient, unfortunately on the ground one can't ignore the thousands of cars choking the arteries of this city. They are not driven by people in Rathmines or Harolds X (who walk, cycle,or take a bus down a bus lane to work in town). They are driven by people coming into the city.

sliabh

murphaph wrote:

these are not high density areas at all. A lot of 2 up 2 downs etc, no better than 'sprawling D15'!! Metrobest wants to build a metro to these people (who don't drive into the city anyway) before removing cars from the N1, N3, N4, N7, N11 all spilling into the city every morning.

There is a lot more to urban transport than just removing cars from the roads and providing links into the city for people in the outer suburbs.

I lived in Ranelagh up until recently and walked to work (35 minutes each way). I still wanted and needed the Luas. I work in Sandyford occasionally, I have friends around the city that I would prefer to be able to visit without using a car, my preferred cinema is the UGC on Parnell street, I like pottering around the Pheonix park and so on.
(Victor should I declare these as my interests? )

At the moment about 40% of my public transport needs are work related. The rest is personal. And there are a lot more people like me that want a good public transport network for more than just commuting to work. People without cars are as important if not more so than car owners. If you have no car then you are much more dependant on the public transport network.

Metrobest

VICTOR ''OK, you two whingeing bitches can take your private little spammy arguments elsewhere or theres (sic) banning in the offing. And learn to use the

system properly.''

Very well. Our 'private' argument (viewed 735 times and with more than 50 contributions, making it one of the most popular discussions on this thread-page) has moved to entertainment.ie forums.. Go to the ''visiting Ireland'' page.

The argument wasn't spammy. Spammy isn't even a word. And I'm not a bitch. Funny how being a moderator seems to give you the right to say what you like, and to ban people you don't agree with. Heil Victor!

Oh and by the way, I'll learn to 'quote properly' when you learn how to use apostrophes properly.

maxheadroom

Metrobest wrote:

VICTOR ''OK, you two whingeing bitches can take your private little spammy arguments elsewhere or theres (sic) banning in the offing. And learn to use the [.quote] system properly.''

Very well. Our 'private' argument (viewed 735 times and with more than 50 contributions, making it one of the most popular discussions on this thread-page) has moved to entertainment.ie forums.. Go to the ''visiting Ireland'' page.

The argument wasn't spammy. Spammy isn't even a word. And I'm not a bitch. Funny how being a moderator seems to give you the right to say what you like, and to ban people you don't agree with. Heil Victor!

Oh and by the way, I'll learn to 'quote properly' when you learn how to use apostrophes properly.

Metrobest, I have better things to do than follow you across all the forums you can get yourself banned from to hear you not answer anybody's arguments.

But, I did notice how you haven't drawn your lines out for anyone. Despite being asked both on this board and on P11's boards (before your departure).

And as for my lack of knowledge about the arrow service to gorey / arklow, you're right, I didn't know about it. However I did mention the intercity service to rosslare europort. ("Southern intercities will have to contend with the twin track coastal route in the south, but they're doing that already." followed by "it is a coastal line to rosslare"). Then I went, did a bit of research and came back and admitted I'd been wrong about the arrow service. Its called being the bigger person.

Maybe you could learn something from that.

PS: Are you seriously contending that people won't use stephen's green, pearse, spencer dock and drumcondra stations to begin and end journies?

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

Our 'private' argument (viewed 735 times and with more than 50 contributions, making it one of the most popular discussions on this thread-page)

--Wow, we actually agree on something!

However I, like Maxheadroom cannot see the logic in jumping from forum to forum being banned all along the way. I looked at your post on the entertainment Ireland forums and it's littered with anomalies that I would like to address, but not there, here or nowhere.

We either keep it here or it dies and seeing as this is not my forum. Victor this debates life is in your hands!

Metrobest

Obviously people are interested in what I say since my post on entertainment.ie forum has been viewed 8 times in Visting Ireland - a discussion platfrom that up until two hours ago was never used.

I'm not going to debate with you on this forum with a threat of being banned hanging over my head. P11 tried the same thing: saying ''take your arguments elsewhere'' and then quietly banned me, burying all my contributions at the back-end of their fora.

This is an interesting and popular debate. I don't care who agrees or disagrees with me, that's irrelevent. What matters is that I have the right to air viewpoints other than pro-Interconnector or pro-Airport Metro.

By banning my contributions, Victor is creating a climate of fear in which anyone with an alternative viewpoint is forced into silence. That's what undemocratic countries do, not what you'd expect boards.ie to do.

This thread was strarted by me and I want to debate it: the merits of the Interconnector, and the potential of my Central Dublin Metro. But I would like an assurance from Victor that I won't be banned for saying what a lot of other people are thinking.