Does the Interconnector represent value for money; is a Central Dublin metro better?

sliabh

I don't think it is the viewpoint that is the problem, more the very long argumentative posts that had descended to the level of nitpicking indivdual points. I know I was just jumping over them to get to anyone else's interesting contributions.

Keep it short and keep it snappy.

Frankly, bring back dueling I say. There's a way to settle arguments that the public can really enjoy watching. It would make a great spectator sport on TV too.

"Today live at 6am, from St Stephens Green, the Interconnector vs Metro debate, featuring Murphaph and Metrobest, with pistols at 20 paces"

Of course Sky would probably buy up the rights. Spoilsports.

Don't mind me here, I think I am away with the faries today

maxheadroom

Metrobest wrote:

Obviously people are interested in what I say since my post on entertainment.ie forum has been viewed 8 times in Visting Ireland - a discussion platfrom that up until two hours ago was never used.

At least 4 of those were me...

And, I don't think you'll find anyone who'll agree with your characterisation of Victor's modding (well, maybe Bee...)

P11 Comms

Interconnector FAQ:

http://www.platform11.org/inter_faq.html

jd

P11 Comms wrote:

Interconnector FAQ:

http://www.platform11.org/inter_faq.html
"Yes, a direct connection will be provided to Dublin Airport, a new line will be built from Grange Rd north of Portmarnock to the Airport."

South of Portmarnock-just north of a new station at Baldoyle perhaps?

Metrobest

Getting back to the Interconnector again, a point that's struck me is one highly relevent for passengers on the Howth, Malahide and Drogheda lines. Their trains will no longer call at Connolly Or Tara.

And passengers from Maynooth will have to go all the way to Pearse if they want to take a train to Clontarf Road. At present Maynooth passengers can take the Northbound DART by changing from Platform 6 to Platform 7 at Connolly. So not a very good ''interconnection'' here. I take it P11 won't be handing out flyers in Killester and Raheny, telling people their trains will no longer call at Connolly or Tara, the two most central stations in Dublin.

It again illustrates the gap in the system. Under a Central Dublin Metro, my plan, Maynooth passengers could stilll change in Connolly for the DART. Northside passengers inbound could change for the CDM at Connolly, getting them to the most central points of Dubiln with speed.

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

Getting back to the Interconnector again......passengers from Maynooth will have to go all the way to Pearse if they want to take a train to Clontarf Road. At present Maynooth passengers can take the Northbound DART by changing from Platform 6 to Platform 7 at Connolly. So not a very good ''interconnection'' here.

--They can alright, if their infrequent train arrives before another slightly less infrequent DART on the other platform. They won't have to worry about frequencies on either of these 2 lines with the interconnector DARTs will run at metro frequency so traveling another 2 stops (transit time 2 minutes max) will have no negative impact. Bear in mind also that a station may be built at East Wall Junction at some point in the future though this is not part of the initial scheme.

Metrobest wrote:

I take it P11 won't be handing out flyers in Killester and Raheny, telling people their trains will no longer call at Connolly or Tara, the two most central stations in Dublin.

--Yeah, they'll be handing out flyers telling them their trains run to the new underground stations at Spencer Dock, Pearse, Stephen's Green (not central?), Christchurch and on out to Kildare with 0 change. The can still travel to Connolly or Tara with 1 change from one metro frequency DART to another metro frequency DART. What's the problem? every metro system has changes-that's why they're so flexible.

Metrobest wrote:

It again illustrates the gap in the system. Under a Central Dublin Metro, my plan, Maynooth passengers could stilll change in Connolly for the DART. Northside passengers inbound could change for the CDM at Connolly, getting them to the most central points of Dubiln with speed

--So you reckon Northside pax (like Raheny that you mentioned above) can get to the central business district with one change at Connolly with your system? Why would they not prefer being brought directly there (Stephen's Green for example) with 0 changes with the interconnector?
If pax from northside stations want to get to north of the Liffey, no problem-Luas is going to connect with Spencer Dock station as it runs all along the Liffey between the Point and Heuston.

John R

Metrobest wrote:

Getting back to the Interconnector again, a point that's struck me is one highly relevent for passengers on the Howth, Malahide and Drogheda lines. Their trains will no longer call at Connolly Or Tara.

But they will call at Spencer dock for IFSC and Luas to Conolly and O'Connell St.
Stephen's green for well Stephen's Green which is currently 10 minutes brisk walk. Also a direct connection to Luas green line
Heuston, for south and west Inter-City services and the increasing amount of office/warehouse jobs along that line.

Metrobest wrote:

And passengers from Maynooth will have to go all the way to Pearse if they want to take a train to Clontarf Road. At present Maynooth passengers can take the Northbound DART by changing from Platform 6 to Platform 7 at Connolly. So not a very good ''interconnection'' here. I take it P11 won't be handing out flyers in Killester and Raheny, telling people their trains will no longer call at Connolly or Tara, the two most central stations in Dublin.

It again illustrates the gap in the system. Under a Central Dublin Metro, my plan, Maynooth passengers could stilll change in Connolly for the DART. Northside passengers inbound could change for the CDM at Connolly, getting them to the most central points of Dubiln with speed.

That is only if they manage to catch the hourly service that will not be improved upon. Frequent services that connect with other frequent services at proper connection points are not a big downside. Infrequent services because of choked lines are.


Oh BTW, If you want to make personal comments about P11 take it to their forums. No one wants to know about it here.

Metrobest

murphaph wrote:

--They can alright, if their infrequent train arrives before another slightly less infrequent DART on the other platform. They won't have to worry about frequencies on either of these 2 lines with the interconnector DARTs will run at metro frequency so traveling another 2 stops (transit time 2 minutes max) will have no negative impact. Bear in mind also that a station may be built at East Wall Junction at some point in the future though this is not part of the initial scheme..

I think somebody should stand outside Amiens Street and watch to see where most passengers from Connolly are heading. I would estimate at least 70 percent walks in the direction of O'Connell Street, the rest to Store Street and IFSC. So for the majority of passengers, getting to their final central destination will involve changing to an on-street LUAS via the Point and (ironicallly) Connolly, the station they would have arrived it were it not for the Interconnector!

murphaph wrote:

----Yeah, they'll be handing out flyers telling them their trains run to the new underground stations at Spencer Dock, Pearse, Stephen's Green (not central?), Christchurch and on out to Kildare with 0 change. The can still travel to Connolly or Tara with 1 change from one metro frequency DART to another metro frequency DART. What's the problem? every metro system has changes-that's why they're so flexible...

My point exactly. But in fairnesss, the interconnector requires Howth-Connolly passengers to travel via Spencer Dock two stations' past their destination, change at Pearse by walking down two escalators to reach the underground platfrom and then to wait for a connection from Pearse to Connolly (which could take another eight minutes, based on eight trains per hour on the Maynooth line through Connolly) . That is needless hassle, and for anyone who travels from to Connolly from the Northside, is a disimprovement on their current service levels. Not much point having more frequent trains if your journey takes ten minutes longer, is there?

I agree Stephen's Green needs a rail link. That's why it would connect with TWO metro lines, and the LUAS, under my plan.

murphaph wrote:

----So you reckon Northside pax (like Raheny that you mentioned above) can get to the central business district with one change at Connolly with your system? Why would they not prefer being brought directly there (Stephen's Green for example) with 0 changes with the interconnector?
If pax from northside stations want to get to north of the Liffey, no problem-Luas is going to connect with Spencer Dock station as it runs all along the Liffey between the Point and Heuston.

For Howth/Malahide/Drogeda- Connolly passengers, the Interconnector opens a 'window' (Stephen's Green, Heuston, Kildare in one change) but it bangs shut two very important 'doors': Connolly and Tara.

On-street LUAS will be prone to crawl around that whole area as it negotiates rush-hour traffic. Not a very satisfactory arrangement for a train that used to call at the central hub of Connolly station.

murphaph

The minumum time between trains travelling Pearse-Connolly will be 7.5 mins, not 8. This figure however is EXTREMELY conservative given the fact that IE state they will dedicate ALL 16 train slots per hour over the loop line to the Maynooth-Bray service and this would be a train every 3.5 mins.

How do you know there will be two escalators from the upstairs Pearse platforms to the subteranean platforms? There could be just one long escalator like London underground and Stockholm T-Bana systems. Or are you privvy to some secret information about the proposal or are you just making things up again?

Metrobest

murphaph wrote:

Metrobest,
The minumum time between trains travelling Pearse-Connolly will be 7.5 mins, not 8. This figure however is EXTREMELY conservative given the fact that IE state they will dedicate ALL 16 train slots per hour over the loop line to the Maynooth-Bray service and this would be a train every 3.5 mins.

How do you know there will be two escalators from the upstairs Pearse platforms to the subteranean platforms? There could be just one long escalator like London underground and Stockholm T-Bana systems. Or are you privvy to some secret information about the proposal or are you just making things up again?

Where do IE say this? Can you provide a link? I'd be extremely interested to read about 3.5minute-frequencies of trains coming in from Bray via the hills of Dalkey, the innumerable level crossings on the line and the fact that this is a line that shares track space with slower, diesal locomotives.

As far as I'm aware the Interconnector station at Pearse would be built two levels below the current platforms. I also understand the INC station would be built roughly under where the present carpark is. So from platform to platform will not facilitate a single escalator; not least because constructing one would require the demolition of Pearse station as we know it.

If you're talking about Stockholm, I used to live there so I know it pretty well. Think of a station like Slussen (on Sodermalm) which connects to the Pendaltog (the Swedish DART/RER) To get from metro platform to Pendaltog platform takes five minutes by foot. The reason so many huge esacalators exist on the T-Bahn is that the tunnels are dug so deep and often one line will run beneath the other to facilitate quick movements of trains.

murphaph

This is a lengthy document. It is a presentation given to the houses of the Oireachtais by Iarnrod Eireanns chief executive, Joe Meagher. It outlines the signalling upgrade in the central area which will result in 16 trains per hour over the loop line (they call this the 'central area' to make it more easily understood to Dublin railway novices).

http://www.google.ie/search?q=cache:UghCY4Tcc4sJ:www.gov.ie/oireachtas/Committees-29th-D%25E1il/jct-debates/jt250204.rtf+interconnector+proposal+joe+meagher&hl=en

Iarnrod Eireann also state that no northern services will traverse the loop line as they will either terminate at Connolly in the case of Enterprise or continue to Kildare via Stephens Green in the case of DART.

Thy are also on record as saying that Rosslare Inter City services will run once per hour and terminate at Pearse. This leaves all 16 train paths per hour over the loop line to the Bray-Maynooth service.

To be fair, in one your posts you state that 70% of people coming out of Connolly go to O'Connell Street. Maybe they're passengers coming off trains that terminate at Connolly (Enterprise, Northern Suburban, Longford, Sligo and some Maynooth services all terminate here and so all these passengers HAVE to come out at Connolly or wait up to 25 minutes for a DART, I know-I took a train from Clonsilla last week that terminated at Connolly and the next DART wasn't for 25 minutes. I was heading towards Stephens Green) and they are going to Stephens Green or wherever. We don't know and you are just assuming they are coming off DARTs and assuming they are going to O'Connell Street.

dowlingm

I don't have anything to do with P11 but I post there and IRN and my attention was drawn to this post from one in P11 about Metrobest being banned.

It was only a matter of time before you were banned because not only did you disagree with other posters on the Metro/interconnector issue, but you basically accused them of lying when they made points you didn't agree with or just plain ignored facts that had been explained to you many times.

I eventually started skipping your posts coz all you did was repeat yourself in the face of people trying to explain stuff to you about the interconnector.

If P11 communications is listening - banning Metrobest for "slagging off P11" if this is accurate is a bit stupid. It makes P11 look juvenile. Please say it ain't so.

maxheadroom

I have figured out why metro best doesn't want to actually draw out his lines on a map for us. Look for yourself and see:

Metrobest's proposal
Dublin Rail Plan
The two superimposed

Anything strke you? The following things jumped out at me:

Firstly, that's an odd looking circle

Secondly, with the exception of the southern loop, the circle line is virtually identical in scope to the dublin rail plan post interconnector.

Thirdly, the north/south line as he proposed it is effectively useless - only providing one extra station, and duplicating the stretch from stephen's green to ranelagh (yet oddly ignoring the "POD" stop, is he trying to make this some kind of express line?)

Fourthly, the entire decending leg of this southern loop is duplication of the luas green line.

Finally, the only stops served by his proposal not served by the IE Dublin Rail plan are harolds cross and Parnell square. It seems to me that these places would be better served by either a luas line linking into the rail network or a new dart line to tallaght, looping through the city centre and on out to finglas.

murphaph

Nice work Max.

I think everyone can agree that this thing would be the wrong way to deliver high quality rapid transit to us Dubs when it's laid out on a map.

Man it's ugly! The interconnector is a hundred times more elegant.

maxheadroom

Oh, another few funny facts when you look at the map.

Metrobest wrote:

What I want to create is a central Dublin metro bringing benefits to NEW rail users in areas that have never had a rail option before. Dublin deserves this and shouldn't have to make do with a third-rate bus network.

According to the maps above, these areas consist solely of harold's Cross and Parnell Square (and possibly Ranelagh if he doesn't consider luas - light rail - to be a rail option).

Metrobest, on entertainment.ie wrote:

There's no point having a wonderful rail system that only the privileged minority can use. For proof of this just look at the map you've uplinked. The area between the two LUAS lines contains hundreds of thousands of people, all NOWHERE NEAR a station. You only have to look at all those road arteries leading into central Dublin, all of which are nowhere near a rail station, to confirm that the Interconnector will have minimal impact on traffic in central Dublin.

Somehow, metrobest believes trains whizzing through harold's cross every 3 minutes (the only unique station he has proposed between those luas lines, and the only unique station he has proposed on or near a road artery leading into the city) will have a larger impact on traffic flows in the city centre than a massively improved service on all suburban rail lines.

murphaph

and look how long it is.....IE reckon even fast tracking the interconnector will reult in it being complete in its entirety by 2010. There's a LOT more tunnelling required for Metrobests proposal so would be either 1) far more costly 2) take far longer or 3) both.

Metrobest

maxheadroom wrote:

I have figured out why metro best doesn't want to actually draw out his lines on a map for us. Look for yourself and see:

Firstly, that's an odd looking circle

Secondly, with the exception of the southern loop, the circle line is virtually identical in scope to the dublin rail plan post interconnector.

Thirdly, the north/south line as he proposed it is effectively useless - only providing one extra station, and duplicating the stretch from stephen's green to ranelagh (yet oddly ignoring the "POD" stop, is he trying to make this some kind of express line?).

Some Sherlock Holmes you are! The reason I didn't draw out my lines is simple: I don't know how to via a Jpeg image you've given. If you explain to me how to put the lines onto your map, I'll gladly oblige. My plan is nothing like the misleading shambles you drew on that map. You can make adjustments as follows:

You forgot to draw the station at Phibsborogh. I would place the station near the Church where the NCR intersects with the New Cabra Road. Here you have a large resident catchment area, plus the bus routes 10, 38, 120, 121, 122, 123 all feed into the station at this point.

You drew the Christchurch station in the wrong place. I would place it near the junction of Thomas Street/Francis Street with exit points at NCAD, Patrick Street and the Cathedral.

You didn't include Rathmines. I would place Rathmines station in the middle of Rathmines Road: exits at the Tesco, the junction with Rathgar Road and another exit nearer the Swan Centre. Again you have here a high-density local population plus a bevy of bus routes feeding into this main arterie.

The Harolds X station would be located at the Canal end of Harold's X. Again a major road and bus intersection point on the cusp of central Dublin.

There would be no station at Cabra under my plan. But Cabra residents would have easy access to Phibsborough station, by far the more logical place to put a rail link.

You forgot to draw in the College Green station on the North/South line. That's another omission.

You have drawn Heuston Station as it would be under the Interconnector - on my plan it would be slighly to the right: exit points beside the LUAS platforms, across the Liffey where the 66 bus stops and inside the station concourse for easy access for passengers changing from the Kildare line.

maxheadroom wrote:

Fourthly, the entire decending leg of this southern loop is duplication of the luas green line. Finally, the only stops served by his proposal not served by the IE Dublin Rail plan are harolds cross and Parnell square. .

Only from Ranelagh to Stephen's Green follows the route of the LUAS. And since the metro runs UG it's an entirely different mode of transport. It means someone can take metro from Harold's Cross to Ranelagh, changing for LUAS to Sandyford. That same person could also take Metro to Stephen's Green and change for the North/South line, getting off at Parnell sqare, the entire journey taking place on high-quality, reliable, dedicated metro-only network. Perfect.

So my plan would serve Phibsborough, Harold's Cross, POD, the Liberties, College Green, Rathmines, Parnell Square.... Hmmmm... I make that SEVEN stations in the CDA the INC won't serve.

The other irrefutible benefit of my plan is that exising rail routes stay the way they are: Kildare trains to Heuston, DARTs via the loop line, Maynooth trains to Drumcondra terminus. The other option would be to amalgamate the North/South and Maynooth lines, so the line would be Maynooth-Ranelagh, and Maynooth passengers could reach Ranelagh via Parnell Sq, College Grn and Stephen's Green with 0 changes. I'm just giving that an an option to show the possibilities engendered by a Central Dublin Metro. They're endless.

Metrobest

murphaph wrote:

and look how long it is.....IE reckon even fast tracking the interconnector will reult in it being complete in its entirety by 2010. There's a LOT more tunnelling required for Metrobests proposal so would be either 1) far more costly 2) take far longer or 3) both.

http://www.ivv.amsterdam.nl/nzlijn/english/informatie_nieuws.php?news_id=141&PHPSESSID=f2de42dfda497f037e5886bdeda1cc50
Again I'll have to point you to the Amsterdam North/South line. 9.5kms, under a harbour, 60metres below the historical centre, and the cost? 1.5bn Euros.

The Circle Line can utilise the Park Tunnel so a fair portion of its track is in place already. Work on the Amsterdam project began last year: the whole thing is expected to be up and running by 2009. If the politicians get their finger out, we can do the same!

Metrobest

maxheadroom wrote:

Fourthly, the entire decending leg of this southern loop is duplication of the luas green line..

In Amsterdam Tram 5 and 'sneltram' Metro line 51 (literally: fast tram) share the same track for half the route. Ask anybody on this route the difference between the two: while the Tram veers onto the streets and is liable to hold ups, the metro glides into Central Station without these difficulties.

Trams and Metros are entirely different modes of transport: they compliment each other but they are not the same. Capacity is totallly different, and metro is far quicker. In fact I think it's disingenuous of you to paint the LUAS lines onto your map: it's not a heavy rail line and as far as I'm aware there's no plan to bring metro along to Sandyford. That said, another great thing about the North/South line is the possibility of running through metro from Drumcondra to Sandyford at no extra cost to the North/South line project.

(Metros would not be able to travel Sandyford to Stephen's Green under the current system: you couldn't have metros running on Harcourt Street, but because Ranelagh is hooked up to my metro, the two are compatible.)

John R

murphaph

@ JohnR...............Fcuking Hilarious! I laughed my arse off at that!

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

(Metros would not be able to travel Sandyford to Stephen's Green under the current system: you couldn't have metros running on Harcourt Street, but because Ranelagh is hooked up to my metro, the two are compatible.)

--Sounds nice in theory (are you a spin doctor?), but you are ignoring those horrible facts again aren't you. Firstly, metro would not be compatible with Luas at all at the stops beyond Ranelagh even though their gauge might be identical. Luas employs low foor vehicles, a metro does not. The only way to make (read "bodge together") these two systems is to use split level platforms. Cologne did this in the 70's and regrets it and now they are working to reverse it because it means having ridiculously long platforms with ramps connecting the two different levels!

Metrobest wrote:

The other option would be to amalgamate the North/South and Maynooth lines, so the line would be Maynooth-Ranelagh, and Maynooth passengers could reach Ranelagh via Parnell Sq, College Grn and Stephen's Green with 0 changes

--What the fcuk? You can't be serious here. The Maynooth line uses a 5' 3" gauge. You state your metro would be compatible with Luas beyond ranelagh, implying it would use a 4' 8.5" gauge. These are completely incompatible so to suggest this might even be possible is only highlighting your ignorance.

Metrobest wrote:

The Circle Line can utilise the Park Tunnel so a fair portion of its track is in place already

--Again, you stated your metro would be compatible with the Luas beyond Ranelagh but hang on a second......the Park Tunnel is heavy rail with a 5' 3" gauge. Damn these 'facts' are awkward aren't they?! The Park Rail Tunnel is also the ONLY way of getting freight from Dublin Port to anywhere except the East Coast line at the moment. Yes, freight does run through that tunnel so you have ZERO chance of 'amalgamating' it it into your metro proposal. It has to stay heavy rail, 5' 3" and there can be no discussion on this.

Your proposal has more holes in it than swiss cheese.

maxheadroom

Metrobest wrote:

Some Sherlock Holmes you are! The reason I didn't draw out my lines is simple: I don't know how to via a Jpeg image you've given. If you explain to me how to put the lines onto your map, I'll gladly oblige. My plan is nothing like the misleading shambles you drew on that map. You can make adjustments as follows:

The easiest way would be to open it in ms paint and draw the lines on the map freehand. I'm using adobe photoshop because it lets me create curved paths by entering just a handful of anchor points.

Anyway, I've made the adjustments you suggested to the "misleading shambles" and it looks quite similar...

Metrobest wrote:

You forgot to draw the station at Phibsborogh. I would place the station near the Church where the NCR intersects with the New Cabra Road. Here you have a large resident catchment area, plus the bus routes 10, 38, 120, 121, 122, 123 all feed into the station at this point.

Fixed. I don't know the northside very well, and I also assumed you'd want the interchange facility at glasnevin junction. My bad.

Metrobest wrote:

You didn't include Rathmines. I would place Rathmines station in the middle of Rathmines Road: exits at the Tesco, the junction with Rathgar Road and another exit nearer the Swan Centre. Again you have here a high-density local population plus a bevy of bus routes feeding into this main arterie.

That's because you didn't mention it in your first post. I've included a stop here now.

Metrobest wrote:

There would be no station at Cabra under my plan. But Cabra residents would have easy access to Phibsborough station, by far the more logical place to put a rail link.

Why? As you said, its a short walk between the two locations, but the other location is on both the phoenix park line and the maynooth line? Surely more interchange possibilities = better?

Metrobest wrote:

You forgot to draw in the College Green station on the North/South line. That's another omission.

My bad - I actually did have an anchor point here for it but forgot the "M". Fixed.

Metrobest wrote:

Only from Ranelagh to Stephen's Green follows the route of the LUAS. And since the metro runs UG it's an entirely different mode of transport. It means someone can take metro from Harold's Cross to Ranelagh, changing for LUAS to Sandyford. That same person could also take Metro to Stephen's Green and change for the North/South line, getting off at Parnell sqare, the entire journey taking place on high-quality, reliable, dedicated metro-only network. Perfect.

I fail to see the benefit to somebody sitting on a green line tram of an interchange at ranelagh instead of the green. You would also find such duplication of service very tough to explain to the money men.

Your person in harold's cross could be accomodated by an orbital type bus
route linking into ranelagh and the luas just as easily. Our transport planners, however, have shown no interest in facilitating this.

Metrobest wrote:

So my plan would serve Phibsborough

As would the cabra station in the DRP

Metrobest wrote:

POD

Green Luas

Metrobest wrote:

the Liberties

High Street, DRP

Metrobest wrote:

College Green

A five minute walk from either green luas or Stephen's green underground ststion.

Metrobest wrote:

Harolds Cross, Rathmines, Parnell Square.... Hmmmm... I make that SEVEN stations in the CDA the INC won't serve.

I count 3, one of which you never told us about until today. And adding a destination stop won't really help traffic much, will it? So we're down to 2. One of which you just added. My original point about stations on arterial routes into the city stands.

Metrobest wrote:

The other irrefutible benefit of my plan is that exising rail routes stay the way they are: Kildare trains to Heuston, DARTs via the loop line, Maynooth trains to Drumcondra terminus. The other option would be to amalgamate the North/South and Maynooth lines, so the line would be Maynooth-Ranelagh, and Maynooth passengers could reach Ranelagh via Parnell Sq, College Grn and Stephen's Green with 0 changes. I'm just giving that an an option to show the possibilities engendered by a Central Dublin Metro. They're endless.

I'm sorry, but what you see as a benefit is what the rest of us see as a critical problem. The interconenctor does pretty much everything your metro will do, with the exception of your loop to rathmines and harold's cross, and also provides an improved service to people on suburban routes. Your solution whizzes people around the centre of Dublin pretty well, but leaves no means to get the people there in the first place.

maxheadroom

Metrobest wrote:

In Amsterdam Tram 5 and 'sneltram' Metro line 51 (literally: fast tram) share the same track for half the route. Ask anybody on this route the difference between the two: while the Tram veers onto the streets and is liable to hold ups, the metro glides into Central Station without these difficulties.

Yet again, this isn't Amsterdam. The green line is segragated for most of its trip, and has dedicated roadspace to the green. It also has priority at all intersections (all 3 of them) between peter's place and it's terminus.

Metrobest wrote:

Trams and Metros are entirely different modes of transport: they compliment each other but they are not the same. Capacity is totallly different, and metro is far quicker. In fact I think it's disingenuous of you to paint the LUAS lines onto your map: it's not a heavy rail line and as far as I'm aware there's no plan to bring metro along to Sandyford. That said, another great thing about the North/South line is the possibility of running through metro from Drumcondra to Sandyford at no extra cost to the North/South line project.
(Metros would not be able to travel Sandyford to Stephen's Green under the current system: you couldn't have metros running on Harcourt Street, but because Ranelagh is hooked up to my metro, the two are compatible.)

Wow. Did you read this before you pressed submit?

Firstly, how is it disingenuous of me to show light rail on a map of rail facilities for the city centre?

Next, its either possible to take the metro out to sandyford or it isn't. Make up your mind.

Next, even if you did decide to "upgrade" that luas line to metro, you couldn't do it for free, you'd have to rebuild every stop along the line. Which would be difficult in a lot of cases. Like balally for instance where they've build a huge residential and office development around the station.

finally, a bit about the rathmines issue. Rathmines is a nightmare in the mornings. Not because of the people living there, but because half of south dublin's bus routes try to squeeze through it exery day. You don't fix this by providing interchange to metro where the bottle neck is, you fix it by providing interchange to metro further out, at different points along the line for different bus routes.

murphaph

Hey Max,
You get the feeling neither of us will have the last word on this thread?!

maxheadroom

Yeah - I'm beginning to think the last word will be "locked", from Victor, and that its not very far off...

silverside

Victor don't lock it yet . It's entertaining and hasn't descended into personal abuse yet.

Metrobest

murphaph wrote:

-- Firstly, metro would not be compatible with Luas at all at the stops beyond Ranelagh even though their gauge might be identical. Luas employs low foor vehicles, a metro does not. The only way to make (read "bodge together") these two systems is to use split level platforms. Cologne did this in the 70's and regrets it and now they are working to reverse it because it means having ridiculously long platforms with ramps connecting the two different levels!.

It's very easily fixed. You would run short three-carriage metros between Ranelagh and Sandyford. Even a three-carriage metro has much higher capacity than a tram. In the case of Amsterdam, split level works pefectly on the metro 51/Tram 5 route. It's very nice for passengers too: you can take whichever mode arrives first, but in general the metro goes faster. Colonge has a better street-rail system than LUAS. Yes the platforms are long but look at the capacity! The on-street trains duplicate many of Cologne's underground routes (Neumarkt to Nollendorfplatz, for example), which just goes to show, on a busy route (like Ranelagh-Stephen's Green), you just can't have too much capacity.

murphaph wrote:

-- --What the fcuk? You can't be serious here. The Maynooth line uses a 5' 3" gauge. You state your metro would be compatible with Luas beyond ranelagh, implying it would use a 4' 8.5" gauge. These are completely incompatible so to suggest this might even be possible is only highlighting your ignorance. .

Sorry, I had heard the LUAS Sandyford line was compatible with heavy rail gauges. Obviously it's not. A factual error on my part. Please accept my apologies.

murphaph wrote:

-- --Again, you stated your metro would be compatible with the Luas beyond Ranelagh but hang on a second......the Park Tunnel is heavy rail with a 5' 3" gauge. Damn these 'facts' are awkward aren't they?! The Park Rail Tunnel is also the ONLY way of getting freight from Dublin Port to anywhere except the East Coast line at the moment. Yes, freight does run through that tunnel so you have ZERO chance of 'amalgamating' it it into your metro proposal. It has to stay heavy rail, 5' 3" and there can be no discussion on this..

Freightening! So freight is obviously something that's going to be a problem for the interconnector, too, isn't it? At least in my plan you're building a dedicated metro network. So either it can go UG from Heustion, following the alligment of the Park Route, or else build the circle line to the gauge specification of the Park Tunnel. I would have thought very little freight traffic uses the tunnel nowadays - what, one train per day? So if push comes to shove, metro will have to take priority over the odd freight train.

Metrobest

maxheadroom wrote:

Anyway, I've made the adjustments you suggested to the "misleading shambles" and it looks quite similar....

Thanks, but just another thing: could you take away the red line on the the Tallght LUAS. I just want a map that shows the Circle and North/South lines by themselves, a METRO ONLY map. Then it's very easy to see how central and beneficial the new stations are to all arteries into Dublin.

maxheadroom wrote:

Why? As you said, its a short walk between the two locations, but the other location is on both the phoenix park line and the maynooth line? Surely more interchange possibilities = better....

Maynooth passengers have a brilliant interchange in Drumcondra: to the Airport, the North/South line, anywhere on the Circle Line, the Northside DART at Connolly, Sandyford LUAS at Ranelagh, Tallaght LUAS at Connolly..
The station at Phibsborough is specifically for people in Cabra, NCR, Phinsborough itself, the 19 bus routes coming in from Ballymun and Glasnevin etc

maxheadroom wrote:

I fail to see the benefit to somebody sitting on a green line tram of an interchange at ranelagh instead of the green. You would also find such duplication of service very tough to explain to the money men. Your person in harold's cross could be accomodated by an orbital type bus
route linking into ranelagh and the luas just as easily. Our transport planners, however, have shown no interest in facilitating this.....

As I pointed out in the Cologne and Amsterdam examples, a busy metropolitan route inhales any extra capacity you give it. In any event it's just a short section - from Ranelagh to Stephen's Green - but in terms of linking everything up and more importantantly, giving these passengers a CHOICE of routes, it's rock-solid.

maxheadroom wrote:

II count 3, one of which you never told us about until today. And adding a destination stop won't really help traffic much, will it? So we're down to 2. One of which you just added. My original point about stations on arterial routes into the city stands.....

I told P11 about Rathmines already. But that thread has been buried somewhere in their fora. They obviouly don't want newbies on their site to get ''confused'' or to actually think about 'stuff', as that guy from Canada put it. You are also a member of P11, aren't you? It's kind of ironic that I get banned from P11's forum but end up debating the same things with two of their members, on this forum!!

maxheadroom wrote:

I'm sorry, but what you see as a benefit is what the rest of us see as a critical problem. The interconenctor does pretty much everything your metro will do, with the exception of your loop to rathmines and harold's cross, and also provides an improved service to people on suburban routes. Your solution whizzes people around the centre of Dublin pretty well, but leaves no means to get the people there in the first place.

I've said already, I fully support the electrification of Maynooth and Kildare lines. It's badly needed. What I'm proposing means a passenger coming in from Maynooth or Kildare has a multitude of connection lines and stations to take advantage of. Added to this, I'm bringing metro to hundreds of thousands of new users scattered across the whole of central and suburban Dublin, not just the privileged minority that already lives near a costal or provincial rail line.

maxheadroom

lol @ silverside's "yet"

Metrobest wrote:

It's very easily fixed. You would run short three-carriage metros between Ranelagh and Sandyford. Even a three-carriage metro has much higher capacity than a tram. In the case of Amsterdam, split level works pefectly on the metro 51/Tram 5 route. It's very nice for passengers too: you can take whichever mode arrives first, but in general the metro goes faster. Colonge has a better street-rail system than LUAS. Yes the platforms are long but look at the capacity! The on-street trains duplicate many of Cologne's underground routes (Neumarkt to Nollendorfplatz, for example), which just goes to show, on a busy route (like Ranelagh-Stephen's Green), you just can't have too much capacity.

Again, there's no way you'll get politicians in this country to double up rail modes on one section of the network like this. It would be political suicide given the huge amount of the city with little or no access to rail services. For the forseeable future, ranelagh will be served by luas and nothing else.

Metrobest wrote:

Freightening! So freight is obviously something that's going to be a problem for the interconnector, too, isn't it? At least in my plan you're building a dedicated metro network. So either it can go UG from Heustion, following the alligment of the Park Route, or else build the circle line to the gauge specification of the Park Tunnel. I would have thought very little freight traffic uses the tunnel nowadays - what, one train per day? So if push comes to shove, metro will have to take priority over the odd freight train.

Emm, the interconnector is going to be a dedicated tunnel between heuston and spencer dock. While freight movements might be an issue for the dublin rail plan, I doubt they will be significant, given the fact that there is spare track capacity between the docklands and the cabra / glasnevin junction. IE haven't actually detailed what their plans are for the park tunnel post interconnector (or if they have I haven't seen them anywhere), just that it will be part of the overall rail plan for Dublin. Anyway, if freight volumes are as low as you're making out, the odd freight train zipping through the tunnel won't have a huge effect of commuter trains using the tunnel (or intercity trains being diverted to spencer dock rather than stopping at heuston)