Does the Interconnector represent value for money; is a Central Dublin metro better?

Metrobest

I do not think the Interconnector is a solution to Dublin's transport problems. Nor do I think the Airport Metro is. The solution, in my opinion, is a comprehensive Metro that serves the Central Dublin area.

I envisage two lines: the CIRCLE line and the NORTH/SOUTH lines

Stops would be as follows:

Circle Line:
Drumondra - Connolly - Pearse - Stephen's Green - POD - Ranelagh - Harold's Cross - Christchruch - Heuston - Phibsborough - Drumondra.

North/South line:
Drumondra - Parnell Square - College Green - Stephen's Green - Ranelagh

The Circle line has the same principal as the Interconnector: giving a high quality connection between all Dublin's transport hubs. The North/South line, as a bonus, brings people to where they actually want to go in Central Dublin. Between them these two lines cover the CDA and not only this, they make Metro a reality for everyone in Dublin, not just the people who already live near a rail line. These Lines cover all the main arteries into Central Dublin, so people coming in from the suburbs can get off the bus at their Metro station and connect with speed to anywhere in Central Dublin, within minutes.

Q: Why is a Central Dublin Metro better than the Interconnector?
It has more stops, it covers major population centres around the canal ring, plus it is a dedicated line for high-quality urban transport and won't have to share trackspace with other modes as it is mostly underground.

Q: Will it cost a fortune?
Absolutely not, if costs are managed correctly, modern tunneling technology used and international experts drafted in. A North/South line is being tunneled through Amsterdam (where I live) at present. The 9.5 km line passes under a harbour and the 17th century historical centre of Amsterdam. The cost? 1.5bn euros. The Circle line can utilise the Park Tunnel and existing line from Heuston to Drumondra, saving tunneling costs. From there it loops underground all the way back to Heutston.

Q: Isn't it disruptive, tunneling through central Dublin?
It's not. The stations are dug deep under the ground, the suface construction area of each station is the size of a tennis court. I live next to the site of one of the Amsterdam stations, and you would never know a metro was being dug, so non-disruptive is the construction process under the ground. So it won't be anything like the LUAS.

Q: Don't we need an Airport Metro?
No. Under my plan Drumcondra would become a major interchange point with the Maynooth line, Circle Line and North/South line all stopping here. From this point passengers take an express bus to the airport, a short journey indeed. Dublin airport is proximate enough to the city centre not to justify building a Metro. Good roads lead into it and tourists are happy with the Aircoach and 747. To build it would be a vanity project of empirical proportions.

dmeehan

would you have a map/diagram, its kinda hard to visualize the route/s

Hecate

Looks like a nice idea, and it would certainly suit me because I live along the proposed route It would have to be DARTs running on it though, rather than yet another incompatible rail system. I would also suggest electrifying a few more lines to bring the DART to places like Kildare and Maynooth. This would give them frequent transit into the city centre circle line zone, most of the traffic comes from those areas anyway, there would be no point in building this circle line proposal unless the infrastructure (ie: existing lines) that feeds into it are also upgraded to the same standard.

As you say a large element of it is actually the Interconnector proposal, and this is where the main problem lies. Money is tight, and you would have to decide which part of the circle line to build first, personally I would go for the Interconnector "portion" initially, followed by electrification to kildare/maynooth, then the rest of the circle line, and then mabye a DART extension to the Airport - that is last because this obession with having a rail link to the Airport is very very misguided imho.

sliabh

Hecate wrote:

and then mabye a DART extension to the Airport - that is last because this obession with having a rail link to the Airport is very very misguided imho.

I would diasgree. We are the only European capital withouy a rail link from the airport to the capital. And as a regular user of the airport anything that gets me away from over priced taxis or the limited aircoach is good by me. To get the best value for money the service should also be a commuter one into the city.

But that leads back to the various discussions on the best approach to achieve it that keep us all typing late into the night

Hecate

I would diasgree. We are the only European capital withouy a rail link from the airport to the capital.

If you're talking about a metro, a link to the airport is probably the worst thing you can build first if you want to remove cars from the road which is after all the reason for building the thing in the first place.

Most european cities did not start their metro systems with a link to the airport. In fact the tube in London did'nt reach Heathrow until 1986 or somthing, and by then it was one of the largest airports in the world.

sliabh

Hecate wrote:

If you're talking about a metro, a link to the airport is probably the worst thing you can build first if you want to remove cars from the road which is after all the reason for building the thing in the first place.

I don't think building rail links is just about removing cars from the. I think it's the most efficient way of moving large numbers of people to and from the airport.

aliveandkicking

Metrobest's circle line proposal:
Drumondra - Connolly - Pearse - Stephen's Green - POD - Ranelagh - Harold's Cross - Christchruch - Heuston - Phibsborough - Drumondra.



Irish Rail's interconnector / park tunnel default circle line:
Drumcondra - Spencer Dock - Pearse - Stephen's Green - High St (Christchurch) - Heuston - Cabra - Drumcondra.

Very similar arent they? The only places missing are POD and Ranelagh which are already served by Luas and Harolds X which hasn't exactly got a high population density or choked with traffic congestion. Metrobest's circle line proposal also doesn't integrate with the existing rail network and would be unable to offer the Dart from Kildare, Maynooth or the airport which Irish Rail's greater Dublin rail plan will.

Metrobest's north/south line proposal:
Drumondra - Parnell Square - College Green - Stephen's Green - Ranelagh

RPA's current airport metro proposal:
(hopefully Swords) - Airport - Ballymun - DCU - Mater (Phibsboro) - O'Connell St (parnell Square) - Tara St - Stephen's Green.

Again both proposals have similar routing except the metro will run to the airport not stop in Drumcondra.

So basically Metrobest's two proposals are modified versions of the current interconnector/metro proposals. In my opinion they have been modified badly and the current Irish Rail / RPA proposals offer more benefits than Metrobest's idea.

John R

Dublin does not need an inner "metro" it does not have a huge centre that needs a rail circut. It does badly need city - suburb commuter lines and better links/services for the current ones.

Victor

Metrobest wrote:

POD

Is now Crawdaddy I believe. Are you afraid to use "Harcourt Street"?

thejollyrodger

Im in favour of the orbital metro:) dublin needs it

sliabh

People seem to have loads of different views on what Dublin needs based on their perceptions of what the main problems are. Maybe a very scientific, totally representative and once-and-for-all-argument-settling poll is needed here.

Something along the lines of:
"What is the greatest need for the next large Dublin transport infrastructure project to address:

a) Connect airport to city centre?
b) connect main train stations together?
c) Link outer suburbs in an orbital fashion?
d) Link outer suburbs by going through the city centre?
e) Orbit the city centre?
f) one of the others I have missed as I am writing this in a hurry!

The trick is to keep the options neutral so they don't suggest one of the solutions we all are so fond of plugging

dmeehan

I vote for;
d) Link outer suburbs by going through the city centre

Start the train outside the city, run through ceter and terminate on other side of city, kinda like dart Bray-Howth etc.

Metrobest

''Metrobest's circle line proposal also doesn't integrate with the existing rail network and would be unable to offer the Dart from Kildare, Maynooth or the airport which Irish Rail's greater Dublin rail plan will.''

The Circle and North/South line creates new infrastructure that will relieve pressure on all existing services, as well as bring rail to hundreds of thousands of Dubliners.

In other European cities it is common for main-line trains to terminate in a central hub, from which passengers change onto a Metro that takes them to their final destination in the central area. Let's do this too.

In Dublin's case, we have Heuston for west-bound trains, Drumcondra for the Maynooth line, Connolly for Northside DARTs and the enterprise, and Pearse for southside DARTs and arrows. The Metro lines are dedicated exclusively to metros running at frequncies of 4 mins peak time (with metro this is feasible). When trains are this frequent, changing lines becomes a doddle. When I lived in Dublin I used to take the Maynooth trains frequently: I always remember the hassle of getting a DART to Connolly and changing platfroms to the Maynooth train. Very stressful - connections never went smoothly. But when you have a Metro every four minutes, it's no biggie if you miss a train.

My metro line would cover Dublin's central transport and 'people' hubs comprehensively. A passenger travelling from Sandymount on the DART could get off at Pearse, change trains and end up in Stephen's Green, or Rathmines, or Phibsboro, or College Green. And a passenger coming in from Clonsilla on the Maynooth line could change in Drumcondra for the North/South line and be in College Green or Ranelagh with high speed. The possibilities are endless.

What the metro will also do is revitalise Dublin's central area. For their sheer handiness, areas like Harold's Cross and Phibsboro will develop into bustling hives of activity and culture (Look at what the LUAS is doing for Dundrum.) .Not only does the metro make getting around central Dublin a doddle, it breathes new life into it. A metro will arrest the decline in population of central Dublin and encourage development of high-density housing around its stations.

The Interconnector cannot do this. The Interconnector's role is primarily to shore up existing infrastructure, make it easier for people in Kildare to reach the CBD of Dublin. To build such a project suggests a blinkered vision of the Dublin we want. The interconnector will lead to further and further sprawl. Becuase if people in Rathfarnham start to notice that their bus takes longer to get from Harold's Cross to College Green than the Kildare train takes to get to Connolly, people will desert the suburbs and up sticks in the provinces, gobbling up the countryside. That is what the Interconnecter spawns: a sprawling, LA-style city.

Of course, I should add, it would be wrong forget about the Kildare and Maynooth lines. Electrify them. But to upgrade them to 'metro' standard is a fallacy. The thought of a 'metro' zipping through the green countryside of county Kildare while the rest of metropolitan and inner-suburban Dublin is left sitting in a smoggy traffic jam, is not one I, for one, want to countenance.

murphaph

metro this and metro that.................

We have a metro, it is called DART.

Expand it (with the interconnector) and watch Rail based transport blossom around it. We can reduce the thousands of cars spilling into Dublin on the M1, N3, N4, N7 and N11 and make life better for the citizens of Dublin centre (and surrounding areas-I was tuck in traffic on the Blanch bypass this morning even though I'm not actually driving anywhere near the city centre) by reducing congestion there. I firmly believe that the interconnector coupled with three new DART lines, definitely reopening Clonsilla out to Navan, the airport via Howth Jcn and/or Glasnevin Jcn and a southside expansion (a lot of tunneling required but we need to fill the gap between Luas red and green lines). This would form the basis of a solid system we could expand as each generation passes. None of it will be done overnight and it is all very expensive but we need to start by fixing up our existing infrastructure.

All main lines into Dublin are at most double track (excluding the short 3 track section out of Heuston) and this needs to be rectified by widenning to at least 4 tracks to separate inter city/outer suburban from locally stopping trains. This is something the rest of Europe did a long time ago and before we get any notion of starting a DART expansion in new tunnels we must tap the massive capacity on our existing lines.

I am not a fan of another gauge being introduced either-5'3" DART is the only way to go for sound economic reasons-servicing, depot requirements, staff training, and the vast knowledge base (yes!) that IE engineering have out at Inchicore and Fairview. We don't need to reinvent the wheel but it is missing a few spokes.

Metrobest

Is this the same Philip who posts on Platfrom 11? If so you should declare your interest.

If Iarnroad Eireann decided to market the DART as 'metro' they would be hauled before the ASA. Dart is an electric train that runs over-ground. Its closest relative is the German S-Bahn. The DART shares track-space with intercities and diesal locomotives - therefore it is not a 'metro' line. What'll you be telling us next - the Arrow is a space shuttle?

Let's examine the facts: DART serves outer-suburbs only.
Metro seves inner Metropolitan areas. The dictionary says metro is an 'electric underground train'. Does DART fit that definition? Of course not. Therefore DART is not metro.

As far as your point about about the Maynooth line relieving congestion around Blanchardstown: that's impossible - the line doesn't even really go near Blanch. Coolmine, Castleknock and Clonsilla already capture their catchment areas pretty well: you can't build a carpark in Castleknock, there is no more room in Coolmine and Clonsilla is tricky. If you think every car in Dublin 15 is going to leap onto a train once the interconnector gets built, you're deluding yourself.

The fact is, most of Dublin 15 is low-density suburban housing estates, the worst possible place in which to have a metro. The area is sprinkled with plenty of football pitches and protected green space to boot. Because of the way it developed, the only way to relieve congestion is to improve the roads. Metro in outer suburban areas doesn't work: it only benefits those in its immediate catchment area:

sliabh

There is a bit of a question though as to whether CIE are also part of the problem or part of the solution? If we had all of these great new lines would they be the best people to run them?

Metrobest

sliabh, I think the metro would have to be given to Connex or another quality private operator.

In every aspect of its performance: from timetables to punctuality, customer service to originality, IE has shown utter contempt for the taxpayers who shovel cash into its ailing operations. This lazy CIE culture of ''ah sure it works all right, aren't we gettin there anyway somehow'' will always be with us. But luckily CIE can be frozen out of any new development in Irish rail travel. which can only be a good thing for the average customer.

sceptre

Metrobest wrote:

The dictionary says metro is an 'electric underground train'. Does DART fit that definition? Of course not. Therefore DART is not metro.

Quite a bit of the London (just to pick one city) Underground would fail your definition as well (including most of the Metropolitan line, oddly enough, whence we got the term "Metro"). It's a broad definition, not a stick.

Metrobest

When most people think of metro, the Paris Metro, the tube or the German U-Bahn springs to mind. Never DART. Probably because DART is entirely overground, serves places like Greystones, Co. Wicklow, and shares track space with diesal trains.

Only a very special few people think a DART wending along the hills of Dalkey with a diesal locomative stuck behind it is the same as an underground Metro whizzing through central Paris, London, or Berlin.

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

Is this the same Philip who posts on Platfrom 11? If so you should declare your interest.

--One and the same and I'm not declaring any such thing-posting on two boards is hardly a conflict of interests my good man. I don't represent P11!

Dart is an electric train that runs over-ground. Its closest relative is the German S-Bahn

--It only runs overground because the interconnector tunnel has not yet been constructed, IE specified the entire fleet to be capable of running underground or of running underground with minor modifications in the case of the original 1984 Linke Hoffman Busch units (now that's foresight but I'm sure the RPA would do the same-oh wait, aren't they the ones who ordered 30m trams for Tallaght?).

The DART shares track-space with intercities and diesal locomotives - therefore it is not a 'metro' line. What'll you be telling us next - the Arrow is a space shuttle?

--Again IE propose with their €3.4bn interconnector project to quad track the Kildare route (already going ahead in any case) and quad track the Northern Line to north of Howth Junction. This will separate the Inter City services from the DART and is not really necessary on the Rosslare/Sligo Line in the short term due to the infrequency of Inter City services to these towns. This is something that should have been done a long time ago but Irelands railways have been chronically starved of funding since the British left. Your childish space shuttle remark doesn't deserve a reply.

Let's examine the facts: DART serves outer-suburbs only.

--Like Raheny, Connolly, Tara Street, Pearse, Grand Canal Dock, Landsdowne Road and if the interconnector proposal adopted Cabra, Drumcondra, Phibsborough, Stephens Green, Christchurch, Heuston, Inchicore, Ballyfermot and the high density housing popping up all along the strained Maynooth Line at least as far as Clonsilla.

Metro seves inner Metropolitan areas

--Like London Heathrow etc etc etc

The dictionary says metro is an 'electric underground train'. Does DART fit that definition? Of course not. Therefore DART is not metro.

--Most sensible people can recognise that overground and/or underground (as the DART would run with the interconnector built), the term 'metro' refers to a QoS or Quality of Service, i.e., the frequency of operation. The interconnector project allows 'metro' frequency running of electric trains (underground) through the city centre.

As far as your point about about the Maynooth line relieving congestion around Blanchardstown: that's impossible - the line doesn't even really go near Blanch. Coolmine, Castleknock and Clonsilla already capture their catchment areas pretty well: you can't build a carpark in Castleknock, there is no more room in Coolmine and Clonsilla is tricky. If you think every car in Dublin 15 is going to leap onto a train once the interconnector gets built, you're deluding yourself.

--Where to start! Do you know anything about the area? Castleknock station is less than 5 minutes walk from the middle of Blanchardstown village. Coolmine could easily develop park and ride with a 3 tier multi storey-they have the land there. In any case I don't believe P&R would be appropriate for these stations as a DART every 5 minutes or whatever (IE say all 16 trains per hour over the loop line will be Maynooth-Bray trains only and that would actually be a train every 3.5 minutes) would result in a complete redeployment of Dublin Bus' fleet to act as shuttles between the areas beyond walking distance (say Corduff etc) of the line and the stations themselves. The 39 would cease to exist in its current role people-it would be very radical. I believe you totally ignored the point about Navan because you know it will take those people in Navan and Dunboyne out of their cars and into town swiftly and easilly.

The fact is, most of Dublin 15 is low-density suburban housing estates

--True. this is changing rapidly my friend. All the development along the line at Coolmine and Pelletstown is high density. This is beacause they want to live within easy reach of the city and are prepared to make the transition to smaller living space.

The area is sprinkled with plenty of football pitches and protected green space to boot

--Not where I live it's not and the population density is as high as places like Harolds Cross too.

Because of the way it developed, the only way to relieve congestion is to improve the roads

--Do you work for the NRA or what? That's a ridiculous statement.

Metro in outer suburban areas doesn't work: it only benefits those in its immediate catchment area

--Clonsilla et al are not Outer Suburban. They are Suburban. High frequency rail services which deliver people right to the city centre and beyond do not just benefit people in the immediate catchment area-see my point about buses forming an integral part in any rail plan. Buses will bring mass transit to those people beyond walking distance of their nearest train station.

Andrew Duffy

A large part of Paris' Metro shares track with the RER - a system of lines connecting pairs of suburbs through the city centre. A significant part of London's Underground (the majority of which is overground, by the way) shares track with Network Rail.

However, most importantly - Dublin has a population of under 1.5 million people. London and Paris have populations touching 10 million and were both once capitals of large empires. To build a fully segregated Metro rail system in Dublin to the same track-length : population density as either city would cost in the high tens, if not hundreds of billions and take at least twenty years.

It's all very well drawing lines on a map and saying "Metro go here - metro go there". This is what the DTO did. On the other hand, CIE spent a lot of time and money and drew upon a huge body of expertise in designing two complementary transport systems for Dublin - the Dublin Rail Plan, involving the Interconnector, two spurs, new stations and extensive electrification and widening, and Luas, an integrated tram system. Since about five-sixths of the infrastructure required for the Dublin Rail plan exists, and about one-half of Luas exists, and the remainder of both are at advanced stages of design, what do you think is the best option?

thejollyrodger

e) Orbit the city centre?

Thats the best option becuase after they build the line to the airport the next thing they need to do is expand the rail network city wide. LUAS cant carry everyone!! The interconnetor is being sold by certain people but lets remember that its primarly for those intercity carriages.

Metrobest

ANDREW ''A large part of Paris' Metro shares track with the RER - a system of lines connecting pairs of suburbs through the city centre.''

I won't quibble with that. However, you're kind of proving your own point. The RER is not very frequent, nor does it connect with most of the metro network in Paris. Are you seriously telling us Paris could survive with the RER system alone? Yet that is the fate to which you want to consign Dublin. Faulty logic.

ANDREW ''To build a fully segregated Metro rail system in Dublin to the same track-length : population density as either city would cost in the high tens, if not hundreds of billions and take at least twenty years.''

Of course Dublin does not need a network on the scale of Paris or London. Different populations, different needs. A more relevent comparison is Dublin-Amsterdam. The CBD of both cities is similar in size, but look who's got the better transport. Amsterdam has 4 (soon to be 5!) metro lines, 24 tram lines, loads of buses and serveral ways to traverse the city via mainline rail. What does Dublin have? Two poxy LUAS lines, random connections to Kildare and Maynooth. It's not good enough.

http://www.ivv.amsterdam.nl/nzlijn/english/index.php?PHPSESSID=f2de42dfda497f037e5886bdeda1cc50
Check this link out. This is Amsterdam's newest metro project. It's an entirely new metro line, running right under the historical centre. The 9.5km line is costing 1.5bn euros. It has more stations than my North/South line would have, and tunneling costs in Dublin should not be any more expensive because the park tunnel can be used. If Amsterdam can do it, if Athens can do it, if even poor Turkey can do it, why can't Dublin? We cannot cry poverty any more, having one of the highest GDPs in the EU.

And it won't take 20 years. Work started on the Amsterdam line last year: the whole thing will be up and running in 2009. If the politicians got their finger out, Dublin could be doing the exact same thing. No more excuses. Time for action.

murphaph

thejollyrodger wrote:

The interconnetor is being sold by certain people but lets remember that its primarly for those intercity carriages

--eh, no it's not. It's primarily for commuters from Kildare, Newbridge, Naas, Celbridge & Hazelhatch, Lucan (Adamstown), Ballyfermot, Inchicore, Kilmainham ---5 underground city centre stops--- East Wall, Raheny and out to Malahide (possibly further) on the other side. It also MUST be realised that the interconnector frees up the loop line completely for up to 16 trains per hour between Maynooth and Bray (this is a metro level service but I'd be perfectly happy with 6-10 trains per hour)

It is true that at some point in the future direct Cork-Belfast services could be run but that's not the main reason for doing it-just another side benefit the interconnector provides (as well as your orbital circle line).

Metrobest, have you no retort to my debate points or are you just ignoring them because they are awkward facts that don't fit in with your interconnector bashing? I'm all for healthy debate about our under-funded transport system. Making incorrect statements and then not recognising that they were incorrect when you are informed of that makes your position look very shaky indeed.

Metrobest

PHILIP ''I don't represent P11!''

I beg to differ. P11 has cowardly banned me from its forum for ''slagging off P11'' (translated: for not agreeing with the P11 interconnector) so I think it's a bit rich for P11 members to come on this forum as 'ordinary joes' when they are really people with agendas - the P11 agenda.

PHILIP ''quad track the Northern Line to north of Howth Junction''

We had this debate on the P11 forum. Tricky that there are so many, em, houses and things in the way.

PHILIP ''Inchicore, Ballyfermot and the high density housing popping up all along the strained Maynooth Line at least as far as Clonsilla.''

Inchicore and Ballyfermot aren't included in the Interconnector plan. Let's stick to what's being proposed. As for high-density housing, do you call four-bedroomed semi-Ds with front and back gardens 'high-density'? Because precious little else is being constructed along the Maynooth line, and precious little else exists already on it. Irish people don't like living in high-density, high-rise blocks. Ballymun is prime example of this. And look what being done there now. Unfortunately, the average Irish person wants a car and a back garden. The interconnector won't change this mentality.

PHILIP ''Where to start! Castleknock station is less than 5 minutes walk from the middle of Blanchardstown village. Coolmine could easily develop park and ride with a 3 tier multi storey-they have the land there. DART would actually be a train every 3.5 minutes. (It)would result in a complete redeployment of Dublin Bus' fleet to act as shuttles between the areas beyond walking distance. ''

Where to start is right! Castleknock station sits under a hump-back bridge on a road that can barely handle the 38 double deckers, never mind what you are proposing. In the mornings traffic chokes that road with people driving to the village and the mammies on the school run. Whatever is done with the Maynooth line, this situation can't change. As for the station being near Blanch village, I have yet to see a single person get off a 39 and walk to Castleknock station. I do not sure your optimisim that people will want to sit on the traffic-choked 39s to get to the station.

Building a mulistorey carpark in Coolmine would be insane. That road is stuffed with traffic already; when the gates close over the rail-crossing it gets worse. Just imagine if you had a people driving into the multi-storey. And anyway, who'd want to endure the stress of navigating a multi-storey car park in the mornings, and then the walk from car to ticket-turnstile - over footbridge and onto platfrom would take 6 minutes. And what an eyesore a mulitstorey would be in this quiet area. The residents would shoot you if you tried to build it.

PHILIP ''Do you work for the NRA or what? That's a ridiculous statement''

No. As far as I'm aware, the NRA haven't set up a Dutch branch yet. I don't see why you think it's 'ridiculous' that I think the roads need improvement. No matter how great the rail system is, there is huge percentage of people who will still sit in their cars every morning. Fact of life. Some people want their own space and are selfish.

If my metro gets built, it would remove cars and most of the buses from the city centre area. The suburbs, I'm afraid to say, will always have traffic. And how you envisage the interconnector would remove traffic from Blanchardtown is beyond me. Nothing can solve that expect widening roads. Three lanes on the motorways is the only solution.

PHILIP ''I believe you totally ignored the point about Navan because you know it will take those people in Navan and Dunboyne out of their cars and into town swiftly and easilly.''

Neither Navan or Dunboyne has a high-density population. It sounds very nice to say ''rebuild the Navan rail-line'' but let's get our priorites straight. People moved to Navan and Dunboyne knowing that these places can't sustain the levels of traffic and development. I blame the government for allowing development to take place there. A rail-line is not viable here: better roads are the solution.

Metrobest

PHILIP ''DART would actually be a train every 3.5 minutes''

I can't believe you can say that. 16 trains means 16 trains divided between Bray/Maynooth, Bray/howth and Bray/Malahide. It's a three-way split.

A train every 10 minutes is the best Maynooth can hope for if the interconnector gets the nod, so it won't actually deliver that much extra peak capacity.

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''I don't represent P11!''

I beg to differ. P11 has cowardly banned me from its forum for ''slagging off P11'' (translated: for not agreeing with the P11 interconnector) so I think it's a bit rich for P11 members to come on this forum as 'ordinary joes' when they are really people with agendas - the P11 agenda.

--Don't tell me who I speak for. I speak for myself, Philip Murphy. P11 if you must know did NOT support the interconnector when IE initially proposed it. I deeply disagreed with them then. They have seen sense in my opinion and realise the visionary proposal that the interconnector actually is. I didn't see any ban on the P11 boards pertaining to you either. Maybe they did though-I wouldn't know as I'm not P11.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''quad track the Northern Line to north of Howth Junction''

We had this debate on the P11 forum. Tricky that there are so many, em, houses and things in the way.

--There are ome buildings in the way. Buildings get in the way of motorways and compulsory purchase orders are issued and they are demolished. For the greater good I'm afraid the same has to apply to railways.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Inchicore, Ballyfermot and the high density housing popping up all along the strained Maynooth Line at least as far as Clonsilla.''

Inchicore and Ballyfermot aren't included in the Interconnector plan. Let's stick to what's being proposed

--The Kildare line passes through Cherry Orchard (read Ballyfermot) station and at Inchicore IE own a large land bank making the construction of a commuter station a piece of p*ss.

Metrobest wrote:

As for high-density housing, do you call four-bedroomed semi-Ds with front and back gardens 'high-density'? Because precious little else is being constructed along the Maynooth line, and precious little else exists already on it

--like this huge development beside another huge development beside the damn railway that hasn't the capacity to carry them, you mean
http://www.rathborne.info/siteplan/rivervale/index.html

Note that 4 out of the 5 developments on this page by Castlethorn in D15 are medium/high density
http://www.castlethorn.ie/recentdevelopments/default.asp

Metrobest wrote:

Irish people don't like living in high-density, high-rise blocks

--High density doesn't have to mean high rise. Low rise units can deliver superb density and far far higher than the densities you want to serve in Harolds X.

Metrobest wrote:

Ballymun is prime example of this. And look what being done there now. Unfortunately, the average Irish person wants a car and a back garden. The interconnector won't change this mentality.

--Ballymun failed for many reasons not least of which was chronic umemployment and drug related crime. Please don't make out like this is the epitomy of high density housing in Ireland.

Metrobest wrote:

Where to start is right! Castleknock station sits under a hump-back bridge on a road that can barely handle the 38 double deckers, never mind what you are proposing. In the mornings traffic chokes that road with people driving to the village and the mammies on the school run

--You're 'argument' deteriorates rapidly. Being a hump back bridge doesn't reduce a bridges capacity, it's got 2 lanes, one for each direction!
I am proposing that buses run locally at high frequency delivering people to their nearest train station before changing to a mass transit system that gets them into town in minutes. Those self same buses can just as easily transport those kids to the schools en-route.

Metrobest wrote:

As for the station being near Blanch village, I have yet to see a single person get off a 39 and walk to Castleknock station. I do not sure your optimisim that people will want to sit on the traffic-choked 39s to get to the station.

--Who would get on a bus to a station where trains run every hour or half hour at best. If it were a high frequency service this would change. The 39 would be complimented by lots of other routes as they would be shorter routes than the current 'an lar' ones, the current routes buses can be divvied up to form many new routes without spending any extra cash on vehicles.

Metrobest wrote:

Building a mulistorey carpark in Coolmine would be insane
. That road is stuffed with traffic already; when the gates close over the rail-crossing it gets worse. Just imagine if you had a people driving into the multi-storey.

--That road is clogged. All the roads in and around Dublin are clogged. Do you propose not persuading people to move to rail based transport because the traffic is so bad?!

Metrobest wrote:

And anyway, who'd want to endure the stress of navigating a multi-storey car park in the mornings, and then the walk from car to ticket-turnstile - over footbridge and onto platfrom would take 6 minutes

--No comment on this, people can decide for themselves if you're serious about this nonsense.

Metrobest wrote:

And what an eyesore a mulitstorey would be in this quiet area. The residents would shoot you if you tried to build it.

--The residents of the 3 storey apartment block next door? their homes set the roofline precedent. The multi-storey would not overlook anybodys property.

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''Do you work for the NRA or what? That's a ridiculous statement''

No. As far as I'm aware, the NRA haven't set up a Dutch branch yet. I don't see why you think it's 'ridiculous' that I think the roads need improvement. No matter how great the rail system is, there is huge percentage of people who will still sit in their cars every morning. Fact of life. Some people want their own space and are selfish.

--So we pander to the roads lobby to keep them happy instead of investing in our existing rail infrastructure and trying to tempt people out of the traffic jams.

Metrobest wrote:

If my metro gets built, it would remove cars and most of the buses from the city centre area

--No it won't. It'll allow people wh are lucky enough to afford to live in Dublin city to get from A to B quickly and they'll need to because the roads will be completely clogged with cars from suburban and outer suburban Dublin.

Metrobest wrote:

The suburbs, I'm afraid to say, will always have traffic. And how you envisage the interconnector would remove traffic from Blanchardtown is beyond me

--I told you already, the N3 through blanchardstown is clogged with cars from Navan, the fastest growing town in Ireland. The interconnector proposal allows the Clonsilla-Navan line to be reopened and to carry these people right to the city centre with no changes. Clearly the massive capacity on the line would attract Blanchardstown locals to rail too, as I pointed out twice now.

Metrobest wrote:

Nothing can solve that expect widening roads. Three lanes on the motorways is the only solution.

--Yo have no idea of the potential suburban commuter rail posesses do you. Once again, I ask, are you an NRA plant or what?!

Metrobest wrote:

Neither Navan or Dunboyne has a high-density population

--Navan has 50,000 people mate and both Navan and Dunboyne would be excellent candidates for P&R for the surrounding areas.

Metrobest wrote:

It sounds very nice to say ''rebuild the Navan rail-line'' but let's get our priorites straight. People moved to Navan and Dunboyne knowing that these places can't sustain the levels of traffic and development. I blame the government for allowing development to take place there. A rail-line is not viable here: better roads are the solution

--Blaming the government is all well and good but peoples lives are affected here. People move to Navan because they can't afford to live in Dublin. A rail line is not viable here? Strange the Strategic Rail Review begs to differ with you, then again they must be wrong-you must be right, right?

murphaph

Metrobest wrote:

PHILIP ''DART would actually be a train every 3.5 minutes''

I can't believe you can say that. 16 trains means 16 trains divided between Bray/Maynooth, Bray/howth and Bray/Malahide. It's a three-way split.

A train every 10 minutes is the best Maynooth can hope for if the interconnector gets the nod, so it won't actually deliver that much extra peak capacity.

--You are either deliberately misinforming the readers of this board or are ignorant of the facts behind the interconnector proposal. The proposed DART lines would be [1] Kildare-Malahide, [2] Maynooth-Bray, [3] Heuston-Howth

ALL THE MALAHIDE AND HOWTH TRAINS WILL TRAVEL UNDERGROUND THROUGH THE CITY CENTRE TOWARDS HEUSTON/KILDARE. ALL THE MAYNOOTH TRAINS WILL TRAVEL UNIMPEEDED TO BRAY CREATING AN X WITH THE CENTRE AT PEARSE. THE CURRENT SYSTEM WILL CHANGE DRAMATICALLY WITH THE OPENING OF THE INTERCONNECTOR. NO HOWTH/MALAHIDE TRAINS WILL TRAVEL THE LOOP LINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! UNDERSTAND METROBEST???

Sorry for shouting folks but he just doesn't understand what the interconnector even is. He displays his ignorance with every new post!

sceptre

Metrobest wrote:

When most people think of metro, the Paris Metro, the tube or the German U-Bahn springs to mind. Never DART. Probably because DART is entirely overground, serves places like Greystones, Co. Wicklow, and shares track space with diesal trains.

Only a very special few people think a DART wending along the hills of Dalkey with a diesal locomative stuck behind it is the same as an underground Metro whizzing through central Paris, London, or Berlin.

I'm sure you're broadly correct on both. However this is an entirely different reason to the "what Mr Webster may say a Metro is" reason, which as I stated is rather a poor reason on its own (as it was above) to say something falls into a particular category or not. I tend to think of a Metro as generally operating underground as well but it's rather a poor dictionary definition given that there are plenty of metro lines that don't necessarily do so for all or part of their journey.

GerardKeating

Metrobest wrote:

Let's examine the facts: DART serves outer-suburbs only.

Depends on your defination of "Outer-Suburbs",

Sandymount, Landsdowne, Pearse, Tara, Connolly are hardly outer suburbs.

With Iarnród Éireann "Interconnector" the DART will also serve Heuston, High Street and Stephens Green.

Metrobest wrote:

Metro seves inner Metropolitan areas.

The Metro is propose to service the Airport, the Airport is more an "outer-suburb" than an Inner Metropoloptian.

Metrobest wrote:

The dictionary says metro is an 'electric underground train'. Does DART fit that definition? Of course not. Therefore DART is not metro.

Many parts of the London Underground is actualy above ground. Are you claiming that the the tube is not a Metro system because of this.

Many Metro sytem are above ground and different dictionaries will give different definations of the word.

"Metro" is just a word, what is important is the service provided and the area covered. So what if one proposal fits a dictionary defination of "Metro"

Dublin now has two different standards of Rail based transport.

DART/Arrow on irish Standard track
and Luas on European Standard track.

Do we really need a third rail format ???

GerardKeating

Hecate wrote:

Most european cities did not start their metro systems with a link to the airport. In fact the tube in London did'nt reach Heathrow until 1986 or somthing, and by then it was one of the largest airports in the world.

Most European cities started building Metro/U-Bahn/Tube systems BEFORE airports were a major form of transport.

In fact, London started before the first flight of an airplane....