Luas Fines

Johnny Versace

As has been said many times...

There really isn't any fine unless you are a mongo.

Example Johnny Versace vs Inspector conversation.

I: Tickets please.
JV: Sorry I can't find mine.
I: That's a 45 Euro fine.
JV: Great. Please charge me the maximum 600 Euro fine. My name is Johhny Versace and my address is [anything at all]

...

There is no fine.

maxheadroom

Originally posted by Raggamuffin
i was'nt caught though... ( i think caught implies that i was trying to get away with something with prior knowledge of what i was supposed to do and then somebody spotting it and intervening) i mean why would i hand them an invalid ticket on purpose...? To test them??? a mistake...

Lots of people might try it, in case the inspector was in a rush and didn't bother checking properly, for instance. You might think that you've more chance of getting away with it than if you didn't try and hand a ticket.

I obviously was'nt trying to get away with anything and the ticket person should have seen that.

How? (S)He isn't a mind reader, and the simple fact is that you were trying to get away with traveling without a valid ticket.

To be honest brian i can't see how fair it really is seeing as i had already paid for 2 fares already.

So by your logic, if I buy a ticket for a flight to london tonight, and then decide I don't want to go until tomorrow morning, the airline should just accept that and let me travel in the morning?

oh and seeing as you quoted other cities around the world let i remind you that this is a single transit line in one area of dublin. I'm not sure it's the same as any other city because any other city would have an extensive transit system that possibly warranted such overkill policies.

This is typical Irish attitude - "sure the rules dont apply to me because..." you're just looking for an excuse to justify your attitude here. Just accept that you were wrong, pay your fine, and don't do it again.

cyberspider

I have done some work for the RPO (Revenue Protection Officers) of a Train operator in The UK.

The Laws regarding ticket evasion are quite odd over there and I presume they are the same here.

• It is not an offence to be travelling without a valid ticket
• However it is an offence to be travelling without the intention of paying for a ticket (Fraud)

Subtle difference

The offence/law you are caught under if fraud. So if you explain to the ticket inspector that you have the money to pay for the ticket and were intending to do so on board (Explain you didn't know there were no machines on board). Offer to pay the inspector for the ticket. Legally he can not Fine you. However he can ask you for your name and address details.

If you furnish false details then this once again is fraud and would make you liable for the Fine. They also keep a database of previous ofenders. If you are caught again you are liable for increased fines.

As I said these were the laws in the UK so they might not be exactly the same here

maxheadroom

Originally posted by cyberspider
I have done some work for the RPO (Revenue Protection Officers) of a Train operator in The UK.

The Laws regarding ticket evasion are quite odd over there and I presume they are the same here.

• It is not an offence to be travelling without a valid ticket
• However it is an offence to be travelling without the intention of paying for a ticket (Fraud)

Subtle difference

The offence/law you are caught under if fraud. So if you explain to the ticket inspector that you have the money to pay for the ticket and were intending to do so on board (Explain you didn't know there were no machines on board). Offer to pay the inspector for the ticket. Legally he can not Fine you. However he can ask you for your name and address details.

If you furnish false details then this once again is fraud and would make you liable for the Fine. They also keep a database of previous ofenders. If you are caught again you are liable for increased fines.

As I said these were the laws in the UK so they might not be exactly the same here

Yes, but if you're traveling without a valid ticket and then offer to buy one, you must pay "the standard fare", which is what the €45 "fine" actually is.

chewy

i ****ing hate all the dickheads on these boards going you broke a law you should hanged for it!!!

theses people must have some serious stress problems and probably die at 40 from a heart with all the rigidness and hate in their bodies.....


take this for example i get on the train at howth junction for a 3rd of the time has no-one at the ticket office...

the "rule" says you can't get on train without a ticket...
so if i get on and a ticket inspector asks for my ticket and i say hey the ticket office was closed he could say, according to some, tough luck you can't be on the train without a ticket im going to give ya big fine now....



no that's not what happens you give people the benefit if the doubt.... its called humantiy you should join it some time!!!!

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by chewy
i ****ing hate all the dickheads on these boards going you broke a law you should hanged for it!!!

theses people must have some serious stress problems and probably die at 40 from a heart with all the rigidness and hate in their bodies.....


take this for example i get on the train at howth junction for a 3rd of the time has no-one at the ticket office...

the "rule" says you can't get on train without a ticket...
so if i get on and a ticket inspector asks for my ticket and i say hey the ticket office was closed he could say, according to some, tough luck you can't be on the train without a ticket im going to give ya big fine now....



no that's not what happens you give people the benefit if the doubt.... its called humantiy you should join it some time!!!!

Except for the fact that the Luas has automatic ticket machines that example would be valid. I'm sure you can always appeal the fine.

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by redoxan
"Return Ticket: Complete first leg of journey within 90 minutes of ticket issue and the return leg on day of ticket issue"

and you can't validate the ticket on the Tram. Is there like, a mad rush to validate tickets when the LUAS appears and what happens if it's out of service and there are none in the next 90 minutes ..

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
and you can't validate the ticket on the Tram. Is there like, a mad rush to validate tickets when the LUAS appears and what happens if it's out of service and there are none in the next 90 minutes ..

Any station I've been at has at least two ticket machines and its meant to be every 10 mins?

Victor

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
and you can't validate the ticket on the Tram. Is there like, a mad rush to validate tickets when the LUAS appears and what happens if it's out of service and there are none in the next 90 minutes ..

Eh, I suspect the staff will know about this and act accordingly.

Raggamuffin

OK i'm not repeating myself again ok...

Listen to the argument and don't just refer to that diiotic example of the airline flights which doe'snt apply at all.

1. i buy a return ticket at 9pm the evening before as i "thought" it would be easier than buying a ticket in the morning... much like dropping into a centra to grab a 2easy ticket if you expect to be using the bus in the morning... save the hassle.

2. my first journey on the luas and i carefully put away my ticket to be used the following morning.

3. i have no sense of guilt getting on the train. Alright. I'm not intentionally avoiding a fare or trying to travel with an invalid ticket. Up to until the inspector informs me i was under the impression i had paid for my journey.

4. The inspector then says to me it's invalid and i then tell her thats it's ok it's a return ticket ( see i'm still unaware of the rules etc). She explains absolutely nothing to me and basically she says she'd write a ticket. I understand this to mean that she'll allow me to pay for a single ticket seeing as i've made the mistake. I actually thought tht she was taking my details for the reason of issuing a new ticket (you see i am quite silly and understanding when it comes to these things especially when the person obviously has paid the fair just simply did'nt understand the system).

5. i refused to sign the ticket as i did'nt agree that a fine was applicable in the situation.

I response to the idiotic assumptions that only by "mind reading" can somebody truly tell if someone is lying or being sincere i beg to differ. You use your best judgement in the situation and not the company line. It did'nt help that the person who stopped me could'nt speak very good english and was being watched by 2 other, who i beleive were higher up in the ranks, inspectors.

And it's not a case of "the rules don't apply to me" at all... thats poor judgement on your part and may i say that your view, maxheadroom, has been highly authoritarian and biased from the start. You automatically assume people are trying to get away with things all the time a very poor way to treat other people.

I will be speaking to connex about the fine and hopefully they will be far more understanding than briand or maxheadroom.

maxheadroom

I am listening to your argument; I just don't think it’s valid.

And, please explain how the example of airline flights is "idiotic". It is certainly exaggerated, I'll grant you that, but in both cases you're talking about trying to obtain passage on an invalid ticket.

And, unfortunately, people are trying to get away with things all the time. Why, just right here, you're trying to get away with travelling on an invalid ticket

Look on it as a threshold situation - one you cross a certain line, it doesn't matter how far over it you go, you're still in the wrong. Unfortunately you got caught just barely on the wrong side.

Earthhorse

I think you were unfortunate to get the €45 fine (or standard fare as people have pointed out). I imagine you were landed with it because the inspector thought you were trying to get away with using the same ticket two days in a row. Most people whom I have seen caught by inspectors are let off with a warning or the price of a ticket for the journey they were making so I don't think they have to make you pay €45.

You should appeal the amount of the ticket and explain the situation to the Luas office again.

Good luck!

Raggamuffin

Originally posted by maxheadroom
I'll grant you that, but in both cases you're talking about trying to obtain passage on an invalid ticket.

I would never ever try to obtain passage on an invalid ticket iwas unaware that it was invalid.

Anyway with a flight at least i would'nt be half way through the flight when a stewardess walks up to me and tells me i'm fined.

I'm not trying to make it not wrong all i'm saying is that 45euro is something i can't pay right now and a simple replacement ticket would have been way better.

i'll check it out and tell you how i get on if your interested.

chewy

You use your best judgement in the situation and not the company line. It did'nt help that the person who stopped me could'nt speak very good english and was being watched by 2 other, who i beleive were higher up in the ranks, inspectors.


thats why you were fined beyond reason...
obviously...

and your exactly right, ignore those others they will die alone...

L5

Is it just me or could you just give false details when asked? False name address? Theyve no authority to ask you to provide proof of name I assume?
Just curious

Victor

Originally posted by L5
Is it just me or could you just give false details when asked? False name address? Theyve no authority to ask you to provide proof of name I assume? Just curious

In essence, they are entitled to ask you for your particulars. If they suspect you have given false particulars they can call the Garda (who in such cases will usually respond prompty). I'm not sure if they can actually detain you until the Garda arrives. The Garda may detain you until they can assertain your identity.

alleepally

Originally posted by chewy
i ****ing hate all the dickheads on these boards going you broke a law you should hanged for it!!!

theses people must have some serious stress problems and probably die at 40 from a heart with all the rigidness and hate in their bodies.....


take this for example i get on the train at howth junction for a 3rd of the time has no-one at the ticket office...

the "rule" says you can't get on train without a ticket...
so if i get on and a ticket inspector asks for my ticket and i say hey the ticket office was closed he could say, according to some, tough luck you can't be on the train without a ticket im going to give ya big fine now....



no that's not what happens you give people the benefit if the doubt.... its called humantiy you should join it some time!!!!

THANK YOU for saving me the trouble of saying the same thing...

God almighty, there has to be discretion used. Anyone taking the hard "rules are rules" line should put themselves in the position of Ragamuffin and see if they wouldn't feel the same about the €45 fine.

Victor

Chewy, go wash out your mouth with soap and PM me in a week.

DadaKopf

Ireland's a very pretty dishonest country at the best of times and without the Connex people reviewing security footage of you buying your ticket, there's really no reason for the inspector to believe your story but you should by all means challenge the fine.

I totally understand what you're saying, though. I'm not disptuting that you honestly purchased a ticket but made a mistake. Many vending machines I've encountered haven't been working properly. They've been eating money. I could easily see myself in a situation where I have just enough change to buy a ticket home but the machine guzzled my change and forgot to print out my ticket. I'd probably still get on knowing I did pay but their system cocked up. I'd get fined but would make sure I got my money back pronto.

However, there's a difference between yours and my predicaments - one implies you didn't make enough of an effort to find out about the ticketing system yourself, the other places the blame on their poxy machines. One's the passanger's fault, one's the company's fault.

Obvious stuff. But here's my point: I've had enough of the casual Irish attitude to rules and regulations regarding public transport; if you set a bad precedent, you open the path for fare dodgers. However I actually don't like the fact that the LUAS is privately owned, I want it to be nationally owned, but in the general public interest I'll honestly pay the feckin' ticket price.

In the end I'd much rather the customer to be right than Connex and I'd be much more into holding them to account for operating a crappy system from the outset, breaking their obligations to us rather than some of us who make careless mistakes, asking them to waive the rules which tends to feed the vicious cycle ad infinitum.

If that makes sense.

maxheadroom

Originally posted by DadaKopf
However I actually don't like the fact that the LUAS is privately owned, I want it to be nationally owned...In the end I'd much rather the customer to be right than Connex and I'd be much more into holding them to account for operating a crappy system from the outset, breaking their obligations to us

Just an FYI, Luas is owned by the state and operated by the RPA. The RPA gets the ticket revenue, IIRC. Connex are simply the operating company, and operate under contract to the RPA.

BrianD

I'd be much more into holding them to account for operating a crappy system from the outset, breaking their obligations to us

Who says they are operating a crappy system and breaking obligations? Perhaps you might want to support this claim!

Raggamuffin - you obviously can't face up to the reality that you are wrong and were caught fairly and squarely. You were travelling with an invalid ticket and were treated the same as anybody else who travels without one for whatever reason. I suggest you pay the fine and appeal it if you feel that strongly about it. However, I'd read what is printed on the ticket before you take that course of action.

GreeBo

Originally posted by Raggamuffin
I would never ever try to obtain passage on an invalid ticket iwas unaware that it was invalid.

Obviously you can read, so why not read the ticket?
You keep harping back to the 2-easy tickets, what do they have to do with anything?? Bus != Tram, even for large values of Bus.

Originally posted by Raggamuffin
I'm not trying to make it not wrong all i'm saying is that 45euro is something i can't pay right now and a simple replacement ticket would have been way better.

Yeah, easier for you. So why should anyone pay the fare when the worst that can happen if they get caught is they pay the normal fare anyway?

cyberspider

Raggamuffin If you have already paid the fine write a letter to Connex, there is probably an address to query Fines. Politely explain all the datails you have set out here. You were not intentionally travelling on an invalid tickets ie. you were not intending to commit fraud. If you explain it to them there is a chance that they will refund the fine or Quash the fine if not paid. I know a few people that have done this in UK and also With Dublin Bus and they received refunds.

L5 In the UK the RPO's (Ticket inspectors) are legally intitled to ask you for your address details and if they want they can ask for ID to prove this. The reason for this is to prove you are not trying to commit fraud. If you give false details and they can prove you did they it makes their fraud case stronger and you can face higher penalties. They do not however ask for ID unless they suspect something fishey. I suspect that they have Ticket inspectors from the UK training the staff for ireland for the first few months. Hence the large number of ticket inspectors at the moment. I also suspect that there will be one senior experienced ticket inspector with each group that board the train so if people have a similar situation to Raggamuffin you might ask to talk to the senior guy as he will have less to prove

Raggamuffin

Again Briand i must call attention to your use of the word "caught".

Being caught implies you willingly were commiting a crime and the proper authorities intervened.

However if you have no information to the contrary where does the judgement lie? With the inpector and with proper understanding.

There are thousands of circumstances like this in every trade were unfortunately the rules don't ALWAYS apply and SHOULD NOT always apply.

Lazy logic such as fining everybody regardless so as to assure everybody does'nt try to get away with it again is much like punishing everybody regardless of their defense even if they were in fact unaware of what they were doing. It is most definatly overkill and i believe that innthe interests of the financial situation of the company recouping costs from heavy fines makes economic sense.

Following rules to their exact definition is almost as dangerous as turning a blind eye to them.

GreeBo

but you are still avoiding the point!

The ticket clearly states when it is valid.
The station tells you that it is up to you to ensure your ticket is valid.

Where is the problem?
Whether you were trying to deceive or not is not up to anyone else to decide or to care about.
Its a transport system, who cares about intent!

Pay the fine and learn your lesson.

BrianD

Raggamuffin, do us all a favour - the next posting we want to see here is a scan of the receipt for payment of your €45 fine. You may of course add additional text such as "I was wrong and I have learned my lesson" or something to that effect. However, sitting in ashes wearing sackcloth won't be necessary.

maxheadroom

Originally posted by Raggamuffin
Again Briand i must call attention to your use of the word "caught".

Being caught implies you willingly were commiting a crime and the proper authorities intervened.

However if you have no information to the contrary where does the judgement lie? With the inpector and with proper understanding.

Ok. One more time.

You had plenty of information to the contrary. Its printed on the ticket. You just didn't read it.

And, "being caught" does not imply intent. It merely indicates that you were in the process of doing something wrong, and were caught doing so. Whether you knew it was wrong or not is irrelevant.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Raggamuffin
....Lazy logic such as fining everybody regardless so as to assure everybody does'nt try to get away with it again is much like punishing everybody regardless of their defense even if they were in fact unaware of what they were doing. ....

I agree that the inspector was a dick to fine you for this, as you'd paid a fare just not the right one. But being too lazy or stupid to buy the right ticket isn't a reasonable defence.

drrnwbb

raggamuffin: what did the your original 3€ ticket say? im still at a loss to understand why it wasnt valid the next day if it was a return ticket?. (im not a luas user)

was the 3€ ticket time linked? if so what was the point of it being a return ticket?

dw

eth0_

Originally posted by drrnwbb
raggamuffin: what did the your original 3€ ticket say? im still at a loss to understand why it wasnt valid the next day if it was a return ticket?. (im not a luas user)

was the 3€ ticket time linked? if so what was the point of it being a return ticket?

dw

Well, you've heard of a "day return", right? Presumably that's what he bought (i've never used the LUAS, I don't know what sort of tickets there are)