Luas Fines

Raggamuffin

Made a mistake on the LUAS today...

I got a return ticket last night for €3 and thought this would work into the morning for the LUAS home.. only first time on the damned thing and i thought the tickets were similar to the dublin bus 2easy system.

Unfortunately not.. i was on the Luas the following morning and was told the ticket was'nt valid. I thought they would be more understanding of my mistake but obviously not. I've only ever been stopped by a bus conductor once and he basically asked me to buy another bus ticket. Not so on the LUAS a nice €45 euro fine.

What annoys me is that i actually did pay for both trips just got mixed up with the ticket system. Not very understanding at all.

Anyway i rang them up and i got the usual malark that they'll ring me back etc.

Basically i was wondering if anyone else had a similar run in as the number on my ticket was 163 so i'm thinking that the company behind the LUAS are trying to rack up big money with these fines while they can.

quite worrying as there is only one line in operation...

maxheadroom

So, you didn't have a valid ticket, you were caught, and you were fined? Where's the problem?

Everyone and his dog knows that they're being very strict on fines at the begining of the service, and probably for a long time afterwards. Otherwise you'll have the mess that exists on the dart and on dublin bus, where people pay the minimum fare, stay on for as long as they like, or in the case of the dart, get on without a ticket and then pay the minimum once they get to the city centre.

ambasite

Originally posted by Raggamuffin


Not so on the LUAS a nice €45 euro fine.

how do they follow it up? you give name and address?

Rew

Originally posted by maxheadroom
So, you didn't have a valid ticket, you were caught, and you were fined? Where's the problem?

He's hardly scaming the system, he made a genuine mistake that any of us would just as easily make. Id expect the same if I went out that I could use the return the next morning.

Keep on to them if they dont get back to you.

maxheadroom

Originally posted by Rew
He's hardly scaming the system, he made a genuine mistake that any of us would just as easily make. Id expect the same if I went out that I could use the return the next morning.

Keep on to them if they dont get back to you.

I think you're missing my point. It doesn't matter *why* he didn't have a valid ticket, it only matters *that* he didn't have one. Those are the conditions of transport. For what its worth, they're also the conditions of transport on Dublin bus and Irish Rail, but we're used to getting away with it there. Its not going to happen on a privately run service like LUAS.

rs

Originally posted by maxheadroom
I think you're missing my point. It doesn't matter *why* he didn't have a valid ticket, it only matters *that* he didn't have one. Those are the conditions of transport. For what its worth, they're also the conditions of transport on Dublin bus and Irish Rail, but we're used to getting away with it there. Its not going to happen on a privately run service like LUAS.

I don't think it's a good idea to whack people with fines in a situation like this. The service is only running a couple of weeks and there are bound to be mis-understandings like this.

I think making the individual pay the correct fare and making sure they understand why their ticket is not valid and that fines will be starting shortly would be much better. People will get the point that you don't try to cheat the LUAS, without feeling like the LUAS is simple out to rip them off.

More to the point, the person in question had a return ticket that had only been used once, and was not aware that a return had to be used on the same day.

So it's not like they got on the thing without a ticket at all, and then tried to play dumb. Had that been the case they would have fully deserved a fine. I've no problem with them fining people who just plainly abusing the system.

The LUAS got enough bad press about running way behind schedule and way over budget. I don't think it needs any more.

Rew

Originally posted by maxheadroom
I think you're missing my point. It doesn't matter *why* he didn't have a valid ticket, it only matters *that* he didn't have one. Those are the conditions of transport. For what its worth, they're also the conditions of transport on Dublin bus and Irish Rail, but we're used to getting away with it there. Its not going to happen on a privately run service like LUAS.

I think your missing the point he made a genuine mistake that is probably going to happen thousands of times in the near future. Id expect to be able to use the 2nd half of a return ticket to go home wouldn't you?

They should bin the ticket system they have and go with the Metro Card style system that have in NYC. One card/ticket works on all city wide public transport. The tickets either have a set number of journeys or time period. Execlent system that works.

I was working in Dun Laoghaire for a week a while back and I had to have 3 seperate tickets to get around, serious pain in the arse.

maxheadroom

Idiosyncrasies of our current, non integrated ticketing system aside, you're still missing the point. Fines aren't starting "soon", they've started now. At exactly the same time as the fares started. Which is, IMHO, as it should be. Given the way there's no onboard validation on luas, they have to be strict on things like this, otherwise they lose all credibility. If luas has a reputation for being tough on fare evasion, then people won't try. Yes its going to catch some people out, but that's just tough luck.

Yes, it was an expensive lesson to learn, but Raggamuffin won't make that mistake again. And, he could have saved himself some cash by reading the terms and conditions before travelling.

At the end of the day, the Luas staff were perfectly justified in fining him, and we'll all see the benefits of this policy in a few months time.

Rew

So to sum up what your saying:

"You should not expect be able to use a return ticket for the retun journey it was bought for"

Feel free to correct me if iv got you wrong in all this.

maxheadroom

Originally posted by Rew
So to sum up what your saying:

"You should not expect be able to use a return ticket for the retun journey it was bought for"

Feel free to correct me if iv got you wrong in all this.

No, what I'm saying is, read the conditions of what you're buying before you buy it. The conditions for the return ticket say "Single, Return and 1 Day tickets are only valid on the day they are issued" (from http://www.luas.ie/ftp/head3_US/Tickets%20and%20photocards.pdf - I don't know what the exact wording on the ticket / terms and conditions is).

He didn't try to "use a return ticket for the retun journey it was bought for", he tried to use it for a second journey which it was not bought for.

BrianD

More to the point, the person in question had a return ticket that had only been used once, and was not aware that a return had to be used on the same day.

I am sure it has the conditions of use are on the ticket and the validity dates.

The DART & suburban rail return tickets can only be used on the date of issue. You can't buy a return ticket on Dublin Bus so there is no precedent elsewhere that would back up this case. It was bad luck he didn't check the terms and conditions and he got caught.

From what I heard, Connex are taking no prisoners when it comes to not having a valid ticket. I know somebody who got caught but as they didn't take his address or fill in the "offence" on the form I doubt if he will be sending in the €45.

The frequency of the trams is tempting people to hop on and take a chance on not having a ticket. Perhaps the solution would be to put the ticket machines on the trams instead of on the platforms where they are open to vandalism and (since they take notes) theft.

Hecate

Well I hope connex have done enough research into their target market to know they'd be in for *massive* fair evasion if they aren't seen to be enforcing fines for invalid tickets or no ticket at all. Its just the way things are here - a tough stance has to be taken right out of the gate. Unfortunatly its going to catch out people who may have just made an innocent mistake.

ALLGOOD

Originally posted by Raggamuffin
a nice €45 euro fine.

buy a shotgun and smoke that muppet Brennan. (not joking).

Imposter

Are the ticket inspectors armed or martial arts experts? If not why not? I wouldn't want that job especially when the tallaght line opens!

I agree with the last post, a tough stance has to be taken from the start.

Raggamuffin

In answer to maxheadroom i agree with his attitude to people without valid tickets and such but to be honest their sense of overkill and blind justice is quite severe for a service only running two weeks.

I don't actually live close to a LUAs line and i was really enthusiastic to use the service when i got the chance due to staying with a friend.

Thing is i was'nt trying to get away with anything as i was waiting at the stop for awhile and it really did'nt occur to me that my return ticket was'nt valid. I'm not used to using the trains etc. and any mistake i made i was willing to pay full fare no question. Sure i paid the fare for both ways in the first place and i had enough money on me for the journey and for a bus journey later on.

I just think that the reason for them hitting the 45 euro fines is basically to get as much money as possible in the early runs due to mistakes etc.

WHy they did'nt just let me off the tram to go buy a new ticket and let me wait 10 minutes for a new tram i do not know. Sure we missed one tram due to the ticket machine being painfully slow.

If i'd have known about the terms of the return ticket i'd have just bought a single ticket each day.

Like i said i genuinely thought that it was similar to the way the dublin bus 2easy tickets work.

I don't think a 45euro fine will make me change my ways anymore than a simple bit of information form the ticket police about the nature of return tickets.

But as a second trip on the LUAS it was certainly a shock...

But remember i did actually pay for both trips i just mixed up my information regarding return tickets. Personally i think my logic makes more sense... 2 journey tickets regardless of the date purchased...

BrianD

Unfortunately, the rules are the rules and it was your own mistake. it's like getting clamped - we all have our unique reasons why we didn't pay the parking fee.

I just think that the reason for them hitting the 45 euro fines is basically to get as much money as possible in the early runs due to mistakes etc.

I very much doubt it. They are going very a high level of enforcement to eliminate fare evasion. It is a good sign that you were fined as it means that everybody is being treated the equally.

seamus

Originally posted by BrianD
Unfortunately, the rules are the rules and it was your own mistake. it's like getting clamped - we all have our unique reasons why we didn't pay the parking fee.

I very much doubt it. They are going very a high level of enforcement to eliminate fare evasion. It is a good sign that you were fined as it means that everybody is being treated the equally.

Yep, I'd agree. If people found out that they were letting people off for mistakes, you'd have all manner of little scumbags paying minimum fare and feigning ignorance, especially once the Tallaght line comes on stream.

You were just unlucky to be one of those who genuinely made a mistake Raggamuffin.

Boston

Originally posted by seamus
Yep, I'd agree. If people found out that they were letting people off for mistakes, you'd have all manner of little scumbags paying minimum fare and feigning ignorance, especially once the Tallaght line comes on stream.

You were just unlucky to be one of those who genuinely made a mistake Raggamuffin.

Thats abite strong, if it was a scum bag, he wouldn't have been bothered, it's only cause he's a decent chap that he got fined. A scum bag would have stabbed hte conductor or at least told him to **** off.

Scruff

i was on the luas saturday. Was sitting on it at Sandyford waiting for it to pull off and this famliy who were in the que for tickets jumped on when they heard the doors were about to close. The wifey was concerned that they had no tickets but the hubby told her they could probably buy them off an inspector. sure enough an inspector came round, caught em with no tickets, the husband just explains that he thought ye could buy them on board. inspector said nope. but instead of fining them he told em just to get off at the next stop and buy them, which they did.
maybe he was just a sound inspector or its just on saturday they are more lenient as most people getting it seemd to be like myself and doing it for the first time for the novelty factor.

Victor

I'm not sure, but I suspect Connex get very little if any of the fare or standard fare (it's not a fine) money.

fjon

I don't think this has anything to do with Connex trying to make as much money as they can during the early days of the Luas. If anything, they are trying to set an example by being strict at this stage to let people know they can't get away with it.

As for the return ticket - how is the inspector to know this wasn't just picked up off the ground, or from a bin? Without any proper kind of validation it is easy enough for someone to do this and think they will get away with it.

On a similar note, I took the Luas into twon from Sandyford on Friday night. On the 20 mionute trip THREE different inspectors came on to inspect our tickets, all seemingly oblivious to each other's presence. That seemed a bit like overkill, but I'm glad it wasn't the other way around. And yes, a few people got caught and had to cough up.

Raggamuffin

i still don't see why they did'nt just tell me to get off the tarin and buy a ticket...

i mean this is'nt a service that has been running for that long.

like i said total lack of understanding.

i'm definatley not paying it.

BrianD

You were caught fair and square so pay up! You didn't read the ticket and the validity dates. In your case it was an oversight but you are the same as the next guy who doesn't have a ticket. If they let everybody off the train "to pay" they would simply wait for the next one and jump on that!

The service may not be running for long but the ticketing is virtually the same as any other transit system in the world.

Andrew Duffy

i'm definatley not paying it.

You realise the fine can be up to €600, plus legal costs?

jank

Why cant u give just a false name and address!!

They dont have a right to ask for ID so just do that thinking that you will pay them later

Raggamuffin

i was'nt caught though... ( i think caught implies that i was trying to get away with something with prior knowledge of what i was supposed to do and then somebody spotting it and intervening) i mean why would i hand them an invalid ticket on purpose...? To test them??? a mistake...

I obviously was'nt trying to get away with anything and the ticket person should have seen that.

To be honest brian i can't see how fair it really is seeing as i had already paid for 2 fares already.

oh and seeing as you quoted other cities around the world let i remind you that this is a single transit line in one area of dublin. I'm not sure it's the same as any other city because any other city would have an extensive transit system that possibly warranted such overkill policies.

Raggamuffin

Also i've been reading about Connex the company running the LUAS...

It doe'snt have the best record at all when it comes to public transport.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by Raggamuffin
Also i've been reading about Connex the company running the LUAS...

It doe'snt have the best record at all when it comes to public transport.

Wouldn't beleive everything you read. They contributed (not all their fault) to the mess that is the South East rail franchise in the UK, but elsewhere they've a pretty good record.

RicardoSmith

Girl on the luas today got fined. She went from town to Ranelgh. Ticket inspectors (both women BTW) got on at Harcourt St. I expect fare evasion will be a constant problem on the luas, for as long as its operational.

maxheadroom

Originally posted by Raggamuffin
Also i've been reading about Connex the company running the LUAS...

It doe'snt have the best record at all when it comes to public transport.

They do a fantastic job in Stockholm and Helsinki...

GreeBo

It clearly says on the ticket when it is valid.
The fact that you made a mistake is unimportant, as it says on every stop and on the tram, it is YOUR responsibility to have a valid ticket.

It also says on the back
"Return Ticket: Complete first leg of journey within 90 minutes of ticket issue and the return leg on day of ticket issue"

So where do you think that you have a way out of a fine?