Decentralisation

ishmael whale

This is in response to Oscarbravo post above.

quote:

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It's all black or white with you, isn't it? You have said that regional development can't happen unless it's on the scale of another Dublin. I've pointed out that that's not necessarily true. I didn't say that the current level of regional development is satisfactory. You seem determined to insist that it can't become any better than it is unless another million-population city is developed. I fail to see why there can't be a sliding scale of regional development.

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Its not so much a case of me being black and white. Its more a case that you are not really communicating clearly what you mean. I'm still not entirely clear what you mean by a sliding scale of regional development. One reading of this would be what we have - development tends to centre on Dublin, such jobs as go West tend to end up in Galway, some other areas attract some jobs and others are static. If that's what you want then what is it that you find unsatisfactory about it and what do you want to see done to change it?

quote:

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You can't exactly move an airport, only build a new one.

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Can I suggest that this is a bit pedantic. I take it you know I was referring to the offer of a new site to Galway airport a while back that would have allowed it to develop. I don't think anyone suggested rolling up the tarmac and putting it on the back of a truck, but they certainly talked about moving the airport with a clear picture that this meant closing the present one and building a new one. (And I'm supposed to be the one who sees things in black and white?)

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You've suggested in the past that your problem with the regional airports (specifically Knock) is that they don't contribute to regional development. It's almost certainly the case that an airport can't single-handedly create growth, but it's hard to see how balanced regional growth can happen in the absence of transport links.

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Its even harder to see why someone would place what is allegedly a regional airport so far from any major city.


quote:

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No, it's not a bit like that. You talked above about consolidating to one airport in Shannon: that's no closer to me than Dublin. Where's the benefit?

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There might be no particular benefit to you. The benefit might be to most people in the Western region. You're raining on their parade, not Dublin's.

quote:

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It's possible to take more than one view at once. Remember, my backyard may not be important to you - but I live here.

What good is a western seaboard view to me? I'm not talking specifically about airports here, but about western development as a whole: developing Limerick into a second Dublin delivers precisely the same benefit to me as allowing Dublin itself to sprawl halfway across the country - none. It's very important to me that Cork should be allowed to develop to its full potential, in the same way it's important to me that Latvia should be facilitated in any way possible. The bottom line is, a policy that benefits other regions at the expense of mine is one I don't feel inclined to support. Western development, to be meaningful, has to mean jobs, services and facilities for Letterkenny, Ballina, Tuam and Ennis. If the purpose of western development isn't to improve the quality of life for all the people who live in the west, what is its purpose?

---

Fine, so long as you are willing to live with the consequences of your actions. Your insistence that resources must be thinly spread throughout the West without prioritisation means that the present pattern of development centred on Dublin will continue. If you are happy with that there's no need for disagreement between us.

lucernarian

People, can we talk about this in a Decentralisation of Government Departments context? I find it ironic that there was less interest in a thread specifically for this subject:rolleyes:
We cant have posts that go round in circles. Dude, we need to create new ideas;)

Anyway why does a fundamental part of the administration of this country remain excluded to the public eye? They should be held accountable for any mistakes just as other public servants are. I mean this in a good way:)

ishmael whale

Originally posted by To_be_confirmed
Another larger city or cities would encourage growth in the regions they are in. If people think that the presence of Dublin makes the entire East coast a region of prosperity then surely the same must apply if there was a rival Dublin in the West.

I think you're basically right. But the problem is the opposition you get parochial interests. Its like that old story about the Irish lobster tank not needing a lid because if one tried to escape the others would drag them down. A while ago there was a ding dong between Cashel and Clonmel. Each had a hospital. They were too close together to invest in both so one had to close. The result would be better services for both towns, although obviously one would end up having to travel to the other location. They couldn't agree on which was to lose which dragged the whole process out for years.

The same attitude has held back regional development, and still seems to be around.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
There might be no particular benefit to you. The benefit might be to most people in the Western region. You're raining on their parade, not Dublin's.

Eliminating every airport north of Shannon might be of benefit to the people of Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim and Donegal how exactly?

Fine, so long as you are willing to live with the consequences of your actions. Your insistence that resources must be thinly spread throughout the West without prioritisation means that the present pattern of development centred on Dublin will continue. If you are happy with that there's no need for disagreement between us.

You're determined to miss the key point: development centred on Galway is precisely as useful to the population of the western seaboard (outside of Galway) as is development centred on Dublin, which is precisely as useful as development centred on Lisbon.

This isn't New Zealand: we don't have the bulk of the population clustered in three cities. A third of the population live in one unwieldy urban sprawl, and the rest live everywhere else. If your idea of western development is to starve the people of the regions into the cities, excuse us if we don't sign up.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
A while ago there was a ding dong between Cashel and Clonmel. Each had a hospital. They were too close together to invest in both so one had to close. The result would be better services for both towns, although obviously one would end up having to travel to the other location.

Sure why would either town want a hospital - aren't there hospitals in Dublin?

Victor

Originally posted by Muck
Tullamore already has the primary school building section of the Department of Education.

And apparently Offaly has the highest per capita investment in primary schools. :mad:

Originally posted by Muck
Anybody in Lucan (for example) could tell you that there has never been a more dedicated and focused bunch of profesionals assembled for such a noble purpose anywhere....ever .

I nearly missed the sarchasm.

uncivilservant

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Sure why would either town want a hospital - aren't there hospitals in Dublin?

Is this analogy meant to be in some way relevant?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by uncivilservant
Is this analogy meant to be in some way relevant?

It's not an analogy, it's a sarchasm.

spongebob

I have already said that I don't want that shower in Galway so leave Galway out of it pleeeaaaaseee .

M

ishmael whale

Originally posted by oscarBravo
You're determined to miss the key point: development centred on Galway is precisely as useful to the population of the western seaboard (outside of Galway) as is development centred on Dublin, which is precisely as useful as development centred on Lisbon.

Can I suggest that seeing no greater benefit for the Western seaboard from development in Galway than from development in Lisbon is an extraordinary comment. You may wish to reconsider.

Originally posted by oscarBravo
This isn't New Zealand: we don't have the bulk of the population clustered in three cities. A third of the population live in one unwieldy urban sprawl, and the rest live everywhere else. If your idea of western development is to starve the people of the regions into the cities, excuse us if we don't sign up.

Again you haven't really explained what your problem is. If you are happy with a less developed West then fine, that's what you've got. If you want some significant change (and many people seem to) then something along the lines of the National Spatial Strategy is necessary. This means targeting a small number of centres for growth, not scattering resources all over the place. It means making choices like Clonmel vs Cashel, on the basis that otherwise Dublin will be the only place with useful hospitals.

ionapaul

If you want some significant change (and many people seem to) then something along the lines of the National Spatial Strategy is necessary. This means targeting a small number of centres for growth, not scattering resources all over the place. It means making choices like Clonmel vs Cashel, on the basis that otherwise Dublin will be the only place with useful hospitals.

What would people think of decentralisation focusing on Sligo, Galway, Limerick, Cork, Waterford, and Athlone? I think this would make more sense in the long run, as these cities/towns (and Dundalk I suppose) need development to act as a counter-weight to Dublin. I think Galway (my home town ) and Cork in particular will be the big 'winners' over the next 20 years outside Dublin in terms of growth and development in the private sector. And they are much nicer places to live than Dublin at the end of the day - pity I've had to move to skanger central for jobs!

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
Can I suggest that seeing no greater benefit for the Western seaboard from development in Galway than from development in Lisbon is an extraordinary comment. You may wish to reconsider.

Help me out here: what, specifically, will the people of Donegal gain from a development policy that concentrates all investment in Galway?

Again you haven't really explained what your problem is. If you are happy with a less developed West then fine, that's what you've got. If you want some significant change (and many people seem to) then something along the lines of the National Spatial Strategy is necessary. This means targeting a small number of centres for growth, not scattering resources all over the place.

If your agenda for western development is simply to ease pressure on Dublin, then I can see that it makes sense to consider it as an academic exercise. Targetting Galway as the exclusive centre for growth in the west would achieve the twin aims of boosting "The West" (defined as somewhere that isn't Dublin) and relieving the pressure on the east coast - but it's naive to expect everyone outside of Galway to become cheerleaders for a project that explicitly removes investment from their areas.

If you're determined to make it a black/white issue, then yes: we're better off with the status quo. At least this way we're in with a fighting chance of some occasional inward investment. Until the proponents of the targetted development approach can demonstrate how it benefits those people who are not being targetted, it's unrealistic to expect much support for the idea.

It means making choices like Clonmel vs Cashel, on the basis that otherwise Dublin will be the only place with useful hospitals.

This is a direct contradiction of your entire message. You've been telling us that we can't choose between Clonmel and Cashel; we must choose Galway or be stuck with Dublin. Which is it?

ishmael whale

Originally posted by ionapaul
What would people think of decentralisation focusing on Sligo, Galway, Limerick, Cork, Waterford, and Athlone?

Accepting political realities I could live with this as the choice for regional hubs – i.e. centres that would be prioritised for infrastructure and relevant regional services. I would also favour real decentralisation in the form of responsibility and power being devolved to the regions.

But chopping out some chunk of central government and moving it elsewhere for no particular reason is not really a good idea. On top of everything else that’s been said the two stories below are relevant. The first one illustrates how when services are decentralised normal operational decisions about the most efficient way to deliver services become political issues. In the second story consider how thirty staff made redundant from a closed scheme could be reallocated in Dublin in a matter of days. In a regional location its just not so easy, as a block of work has to be found that suits the numbers rather than the other way round.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=538739&host=26&dir=743

Civil service jobs 'under threat'
By William Allen
bustel@belfasttelegraph.co.uk
06 July 2004
A LONDONDERRY Assembly member today voiced support for Derry Trades Council's call for a major campaign to retain Civil Service jobs in the city…..

"Some of these jobs came to Derry under decentralisation moves which were welcomed at the time. However, it now seems some decentralised jobs are under threat because computerisation makes it feasible to recentralise them.

"Other jobs are in danger because personnel functions are being computerised and sold off to the private sector. In the long run this move could cost Derry 100 jobs.
"This raises important questions about the Government's commitment to the economic regeneration of the North-West, which is still reeling from the blows it has received in the textile industry.
"How much is decentralisation worth if we just get processing units which are for the technology chop in a few years? Will there be any commitment to retention of employment in the privatisation tendering process?"
……………

http://archives.tcm.ie/westernpeople/2004/04/28/story19404.asp
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 :

Civil servants ‘twiddle thumbs’

The abolition of the first-time house buyer’s grant has left civil servants in an office in Ballina “twiddling their thumbs” because they do not have enough work.
The predicament of the public servants in a section of the Department of the Environment decentralised to Ballina about 10 years ago was revealed at the Public Service Executive Union annual conference.
Delegates at the conference were told that since the abolition of the first time buyers grant in November 2002, a large proportion of the staff’s workload had been removed.
Mr Tommy Kierans of the union’s environment, heritage and local government branch, said management had promised that adequate and meaningful work would be provided to replace the previous duties. More than a year on, however, no replacement work had been provided.
A spokesman for the Department of the Environment said the Department would consider allocating new blocks of work to the housing section or redeploying staff to other units in Ballina. The spokesperson said there were currently 30 people employed in the housing section in Ballina.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Help me out here: what, specifically, will the people of Donegal gain from a development policy that concentrates all investment in Galway?

Maybe very little, but the point is if you spread resources too thinly no-one at all benefits. The National Spatial Strategy suggests that large urban centres are needed to bring significant development to regional locations. You can argue over the details, and whether its town A or town B that benefits. But your idea that every small town must get something is the approach that has been tried to date and found wanting.

Originally posted by oscarBravo
It's naive to expect everyone outside of Galway to become cheerleaders for a project that explicitly removes investment from their areas.

If they can't see the bigger picture the whole region will decline.

Originally posted by oscarBravo
If you're determined to make it a black/white issue, then yes: we're better off with the status quo.

I don't see how this is dependent on me making it a black/white issue. I'm trying to get a picture of what you think should be different, which I'm still not clear on. For example, do you want to see central government offices splintered and scattered over 53 locations? I don't know. You haven't said.

Originally posted by oscarBravo
This is a direct contradiction of your entire message. You've been telling us that we can't choose between Clonmel and Cashel; we must choose Galway or be stuck with Dublin. Which is it?

This is painful. Clearly what I am pointing out is that a block to regional development is the difficulty of getting local groups to commit to common objectives that should improve the position of their region. In the example of Cashel/Clonmel the lack of agreement was within the one county. It's a perfect example of this issue.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
Maybe very little, but the point is if you spread resources too thinly no-one at all benefits.

This is where we get down to the nitty-gritty: what's "too thinly"? Concentrating resources in one area means no-one outside that area benefits. Scattering resources with no focus whatsoever means that no-one benefits at all.

That's why I'm looking for a middle ground. If you concentrate growth in Galway, Donegal effectively suffers, as I've finally gotten you to admit. If you plan for growth in Sligo, then there's the possibility of some benefit for Donegal. If growth is encouraged in Castlebar, Sligo and Letterkenny, then the benefits start to be felt throughout the region.

The National Spatial Strategy suggests that large urban centres are needed to bring significant development to regional locations.

The NSS can suggest what it wants, but if the net effect of a policy is to allow existing smaller urban centres to decay, then don't be too surprised when the inhabitants of those towns have a problem with it.

You can argue over the details, and whether its town A or town B that benefits. But your idea that every small town must get something is the approach that has been tried to date and found wanting.

In a sense, it's vital that every small town gets something - not necessarily a Dell or MBNA, but something to keep the local economy alive.

I've suggested that Castlebar and Sligo become focal points for development - notice I didn't mention Ballina, even though I live there. Develop Castlebar and Sligo, and Ballina will develop too - as long as it has good quality access to those towns. Back to the hospital question: Ballina doesn't need a hospital. What it does need is a good road to Castlebar (which it doesn't have) and a reliable ambulance service (which does its best, considering the roads).

If they can't see the bigger picture the whole region will decline.

If the region (or at least a prosperous corner of it) is growing, but you live in a ghost town, what have you gained?

Perhaps advocates of centralised development should be made to live in Gweedore for a year - that might reshape their thinking somewhat. I'm reminded of a friend's recent suggestion that Miche�l Martin should be driven to the far end of the Dingle peninsula, kicked hard in the nuts and told to find his way to the nearest hospital - then as he approaches Tralee, kick him again and tell him to carry on to Limerick.

I don't see how this is dependent on me making it a black/white issue. I'm trying to get a picture of what you think should be different, which I'm still not clear on. For example, do you want to see central government offices splintered and scattered over 53 locations? I don't know. You haven't said.

I'm not particularly impressed with the current decentralisation proposal, no. I don't see what it's supposed to achieve.

This is painful. Clearly what I am pointing out is that a block to regional development is the difficulty of getting local groups to commit to common objectives that should improve the position of their region. In the example of Cashel/Clonmel the lack of agreement was within the one county. It's a perfect example of this issue.

Neat dodge. The whole thrust of your argument to date has been that there shouldn't be any development in Tipperary, because it would prevent Galway (or wherever) from achieving necessary economies of scale. Against that backdrop, highlighting an argument between two towns in Tipp hardly proves your point.

On the subject of the hospitals: what was proposed to be put in place to ensure that nobody died in an ambulance between Cashel and Clonmel? There's not much point consolidating services in one location to the detriment of another - the new improved hospital could be the best in the world, but if it's a half-hour ambulance ride through heavy traffic on a bad road for an intensive care patient, what have you really achieved?

Sleepy

Originally posted by ishmael whale

http://archives.tcm.ie/westernpeople/2004/04/28/story19404.asp
Wednesday, April 28, 2004 :

Civil servants ‘twiddle thumbs’

The abolition of the first-time house buyer’s grant has left civil servants in an office in Ballina “twiddling their thumbs” because they do not have enough work.
The predicament of the public servants in a section of the Department of the Environment decentralised to Ballina about 10 years ago was revealed at the Public Service Executive Union annual conference.
Delegates at the conference were told that since the abolition of the first time buyers grant in November 2002, a large proportion of the staff’s workload had been removed.
Mr Tommy Kierans of the union’s environment, heritage and local government branch, said management had promised that adequate and meaningful work would be provided to replace the previous duties. More than a year on, however, no replacement work had been provided.
A spokesman for the Department of the Environment said the Department would consider allocating new blocks of work to the housing section or redeploying staff to other units in Ballina. The spokesperson said there were currently 30 people employed in the housing section in Ballina.

Why in the name of god weren't these people made redundant? If there's no work, there's no position. Typical of the "taking care of the boys" attitude if you ask me.

Sleepy

Originally posted by uncivilservant
Thank you for your well rounded contribution to the debate.

Here's the link to the Department of Finance website, where you should be able to find circulars containing civil service pay scales, details of annual leave entitlements and information on how the flexitime system works.

http://www.finance.gov.ie

Well, call me thick if you like I couldn't find details of pay scales anywhere on that site, only circulars about raises. Ditto publicjobs.ie. Nor could I find details of annual leave entitlements, nor on how to screw the flexitime system.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by oscarBravo
This is where we get down to the nitty-gritty: what's "too thinly"? Concentrating resources in one area means no-one outside that area benefits. Scattering resources with no focus whatsoever means that no-one benefits at all.

We’re getting closer. We can agree that scattering resources with no focus whatsoever means that no-one benefits at all. We can agree that the proposed decentralisation adds nothing.

Can I point out that your statement that ‘Concentrating resources in one area means no-one outside that area benefits.’ is not entirely consistent with ‘Develop Castlebar and Sligo, and Ballina will develop too - as long as it has good quality access to those towns’ and suggests you are open to the question of prioritisation.

In principle, a lot of what you are saying is much the same as the National Spatial Strategy says. They identified nine primary and nine secondary centres. You seem to be saying one per county (I’m not trying to put words in your mouth, but to the extent that you say Letterkenny, Sligo and Castlebar but not Ballina it looks like that.) Broadly you seem to be saying you’re fine with the NSS. That said you have to accept that, at some level, this means that every small town will not get something – and some will likely be losers.

However, at least we seem to be on the same playing field. We are both saying some level of concentration is necessary. The only argument is how many centres.

I’d be quite happy to bring Micheal Martin to Dingle and leave him there (my commitment to non-violence makes kicking him problematic.) But this doesn’t really clarify the issue of how to deliver health services in rural areas. If you’re at the butt end of the Beara peninsular you’ve a journey ahead of you. If you live next door to a hospital offering the service you require you don’t. If you live in a large town you’ve a higher chance of being close to a hospital offering the service you require. If you live in a very large town your chances are higher again.

Returning to Cashel/Clonmel, I’m not dodging. I’m just pointing out that local loyalties cause problems in situations where most innocent bystanders are asking ‘what’s all that about.’ If people can't agree on priorities within counties its hard to see how they can be brought to agree at a regional level, let alone a national level.

I have no idea what local protocols are agreed for the handling of patients in South Tipperary. I don’t know to what extent centralisating services might mean that they could deal with cases locally that would otherwise need to be referred to Dublin, but that Hanley fellah probably has a view. I had a google and from what I can gather in 1997 agreement was reached that Clonmel would be the main centre, but Cashel is still clinging on at some level. Clonmel seems to have a new wing built and everyone is terribly puzzled why there’s no money to open it. Funny old world.

gazzer

Here you go Sleepy.

Below is the rates of pay for Clerical Officers (these will make up the majority of the staff who are being asked to decentralise.

As you will see... the starting salary is just under 400 euro a week with annual increments. It takes approx 15 years to get to the top of the scale if you stay in that grade. This rate of pay is as at Dec 2003.

the link below shows the annual leave entitlements for all grades. Clerical Officers get 20 (though that was changed to 21 under benchmarking)





CLERICAL OFFICER STANDARD SCALE, CLERICAL OFFICER DATA ENTRY AND VISUALLY IMPAIRED TELEPHONIST

€19,723 (€377.98) €20,642 (€395.59) €21,563 (€413.25)*
€22,484 (€430.90) €23,405 (€448.55) €24,327 (€466.22)
€25,246 (€483.83) €26,167 (€501.47) €27,089 (€519.15)
€28,008 (€536.76) €28,922 (€554.27) €30,347(€581.58)
€31,468 (€603.07) [1] €31,982 (€612.92)[2]


CLERICAL OFFICER HIGHER SCALE

€20,642 (€395.59) €21,563 (€413.25) €22,484 (€430.90)
€23,405 (€448.55) €24,327 (€466.22) €25,246 (€483.83)
€26,167 (€501.47) €27,089 (€519.15) €28,008 (€536.76)
€28,922 (€554.27) €30,347 (€581.58) €31,468 (€603.07)
€31,982 (€612.92) €32,676 (€626.21)

1 After 3 years satisfactory service at the maximum.
2 After 6 years satisfactory service at the maximum.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=573

gazzer

oh almost forgot Sleepy.

The flexi time arrangements are as follows:

You can start work anytime from 8am to 10am
You must be in work from 10am to 12.30
You can take a lunch break from 12.30 to 2.30 (you have to take a minimum of half hour)
You must in work from 2.30 to 4pm
Then you can leave work anytime from 4pm to 7pm.

You must work a 34.25 hour week.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
We are both saying some level of concentration is necessary. The only argument is how many centres.

Fair enough - let's leave that as an open question to be developed in the future.

I'd be quite happy to bring Micheal Martin to Dingle and leave him there (my commitment to non-violence makes kicking him problematic.)

Don't worry, you wouldn't have any great trouble finding someone to do it for you.

But this doesn't really clarify the issue of how to deliver health services in rural areas. If you're at the butt end of the Beara peninsular you've a journey ahead of you. If you live next door to a hospital offering the service you require you don't. If you live in a large town you've a higher chance of being close to a hospital offering the service you require. If you live in a very large town your chances are higher again.

Speaking personally, I would have no qualms with facing a journey - once that journey was reasonable. That's not about distance, but about time. Once a structure is put in place that can get an acute patient to an appropriate level of care in a short timespan, it doesn't matter quite so much where the hospitals are. This means investment in ambulance services - air and ground - rather than hospitals everywhere. I think that's roughly where Hanley was going.

cyclopath2001

The ICT & Health jobs are being shifted, mostly to McCreeevy's own constituency (Naas & Kildare).

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=2363

Press release was made at close of business today and just as the Dail finishes until September, no doubt to prevent any awkward questions being asked in the house.

uncivilservant

Originally posted by cyclopath2001
The ICT & Health jobs are being shifted, mostly to McCreeevy's own constituency (Naas & Kildare).

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=2363

Press release was made at close of business today and just as the Dail finishes until September, no doubt to prevent any awkward questions being asked in the house.

And a sizable chunk of the rest going to Parlon's.

uncivilservant

It would be interesting to get a look at the breakdown of what locations those 2,200 expressions of interest were for...

cyclopath2001

I didn't know that Kildare town was underdeveloped, I wonder how it managed to win out over Boyle?

Not only should the departmental breakdown of the 2200 be questioned but also the grades....pity that the announcement was made just as the Dail adjourned.

The official spin is that the 2200 is an encouraging beginning, but actually the figure could drop back as I've heard that some people said they will move with their departments to avoid the hassle of training their replacements while trying to do their normal days work & to avoid being tagged for an early move to another part of Dublin to make way for their replacements. At the last minute they'll withdraw their expressions of interest.

Others were just speculative expressions so as to reserve a location that they may or may not decide to move to before the deadline.

More again will drop out when they find the locals have jacked up the house prices at the destinations and after totting up the full cost of moving.

I pity the HR people, it'll be a messy job.

uncivilservant

Originally posted by cyclopath2001
IThe official spin is that the 2200 is an encouraging beginning, but actually the figure could drop back as I've heard that some people said they will move with their departments to avoid the hassle of training their replacements while trying to do their normal days work & to avoid being tagged for an early move to another part of Dublin to make way for their replacements. At the last minute they'll withdraw their expressions of interest.

I've no doubt that people doing jobs they actually gain some level of satisfaction from are just saying they'll go with their parent department for the sake of being left alone for a couple of years.

If they were unfortunate enough to get caught up in the inter-departmental churn and transferred to a different department, but the whole thing got shelved and their job didn't actually decentralise after all..... well that's just tough i suppose because there's no transferring back.

DublinWriter

Originally posted by ishmael whale
I’d be quite happy to bring Micheal Martin to Dingle and leave him there (my commitment to non-violence makes kicking him problematic.)

A few months ago I passed by Micheal Martin on Kildare street as he was standing talking to someone.

I'm a liberal pacifist, but I never had the urge to go smack someone in the face as strong as I had that day.

ishmael whale

The figures on numbers opting for the decentralisation programme are much as expected. The full report is here.

http://www.uncivilservant.com/article.php?id=123

Table 7 of the stats gives details of the 1997 civil servants applying for the new locations. The top nine locations attracting applications are all in Leinster. They are:

Drogheda 291
Newbridge 218
Trim 215
Mullingar 106
Carlow 81
Portlaoise 80
Cavan 79
Navan 73
Tullamore 58

These nine account for 1200 of the circa 2000 volunteers (and the top three account for 724 of them), so it would look like the volunteering is largely based on people living in the various satellite towns around Dublin opting for a closer location.

Navan might be less popular because its getting the probation and welfare service and all bar one of the present staff seem to be taking the opportunity of leaving all that unpleasantness behind them.

lucernarian

It seems I was correct when I said that Drogheda attracted the most applications (291 out of around 300)

Why would Drogheda, the largest or second largest provincial town in ireland be left out of the NSS or of the suggestions by posters? Does nobody realise that the NSS makes the area 10-40 miles out of Dublin a ghost area, to be swallowed up by Dublin? Im fed up with people who think that these "satellite towns" have it all cushy. I dont think Drogheda is a satellite town and I dont think it should be either. We have to put up with influxes of people, driving up house prices and putting severe pressure on local infrastructure.

Btw the NEHB(north eastern health board) seems to have already partially implemented Hanly but I don't see the local hospital (our lady of lourdes') getting extra staff or beds. It seems to be easy for health boards to downgrade hospitals but they're much more unwilling to upgrade the other hospitals

Cork

Originally posted by Sleepy
Well, call me thick if you like I couldn't find details of pay scales anywhere on that site, only circulars about raises. Ditto publicjobs.ie. Nor could I find details of annual leave entitlements, nor on how to screw the flexitime system.

What gets me is that public servants taking jobs as returning officers and counters at elections.

Would it not be fairer if these jobs were open to all.