Decentralisation

Sparks

You know that "leading by example" doesn't actually mean "tell a whole bunch of people to uproot their lives and move to the middle of nowhere while you yourself remain in Dublin", right?

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
What is wrong with the government leading by example by putting civil service jobs into the regions?

Leading by example would be decentralizing themselves

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
You know that "leading by example" doesn't actually mean "tell a whole bunch of people to uproot their lives and move to the middle of nowhere while you yourself remain in Dublin", right?

Companies are constantly moving location. It is a pretty common occurance.

The state will be able to sell prime Dublin property & it will put some economic activity into the regions.

These civil servants have already been in reciept of large amounts of money under bench marking for changes in work practices & flexability.

The location of their work is changing.

So what?

This happens in many industrys. It happened to a company that I worked for which moved to Cork from a neighbouring county.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork
Companies are constantly moving location. It is a pretty common occurance.

The state will be able to sell prime Dublin property & it will put some economic activity into the regions.

These civil servants have already been in reciept of large amounts of money under bench marking for changes in work practices & flexability.

The location of their work is changing.

So what?

This happens in many industrys. It happened to a company that I worked for which moved to Cork from a neighbouring county.

Great example of avoiding the question.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
The state will be able to sell prime Dublin property & it will put some economic activity into the regions.

You mean place office space on an oversupplied office market? With 15% empty space?

Cork

Originally posted by Victor
You mean place office space on an oversupplied office market? With 15% empty space?

But with Irish gowth forecasts looking pretty fine - I am sure tennants will be found.

lucernarian

I think the Government should inform Civil Servants about the locations they may be moving to. Then civil servants would have more justified reasons not to move there... or to move there.

spongebob

They are putting some near me but I don't want them there at all ....clogging up the roads and making a nuisance of themselves in the local schools with their skangerified kids and their white tracksuits and trying to cheapskate the local creches by trying to get flexitime discounts for 30 mins every morning and then showing up early half the time .

Send them all to Cork I say..........I don't want them here if they haven't already decentralised their asses voluntarily .

M

lucernarian

They are putting some near me but I don't want them there at all ....clogging up the roads and making a nuisance of themselves in the local schools with their skangerified kids and their white tracksuits and trying to cheapskate the local creches by trying to get flexitime discounts for 30 mins every morning and then showing up early half the time .

Lol, unfortunately though too much of wat muck said is true

uncivilservant

Originally posted by Cork
But with Irish gowth forecasts looking pretty fine - I am sure tennants will be found.

I'm sorry, but until you attain the capacity to read the answers to the questions you ask i'll not be responding to you again.

uncivilservant

Originally posted by To_be_confirmed
I think the Government should inform Civil Servants about the locations they may be moving to. Then civil servants would have more justified reasons not to move there... or to move there.

Are you familiar with the decentralisation program at all?

De Rebel

Originally posted by Muck
Send them all to Cork I say..........

Ta very much Muck, but Connemara's need is so much greater than Cork's.

spongebob

Most of them will live in Galway City which is what I am concerned with .

They can not get planning permission in Connemara anyway and cannot afford what comes on the open market there .....even if they are selling a house in Dublin.

M

Cork

Why should the regions pay second fiddle to Dublin?

Dublin cannot cope with its traffic, housing needs or even the refuse it generates.

We live in a small country. We live in an era of video conferencing. There are no obstacles to decentralisation from a longistics point of view.

Companys and shops change location change location often in the public sector and employees just evaluate the move.

Sand

Theres no rhyme or reason to decentralisation. Its not even decentralisation - the decision making is all still centralised. They could decentralise to Australia for all the difference it will make.

It imposes hardship on the civil servants who are overwhelmingly against being forced to uproot and move, or be reassigned/fired leading to a fall in competence in the affected departments and overstaffing in others.

It will bring no benefit to society in terms of quality of service. It will inflate house and rent prices in affected areas, making it harder for locals to buy houses for themselves in their own areas, and probably erroding any advantage that is claimed from selling up in Dublin and buying up in the country.

The regions will always lag behind dublin, theres 1.5 million people in Dublin ffs, I dont think theres even 30,000 in all of Leitrim. Dropping an office here and there with no overall strategy will not change that.

Its all massive exspense and hardship just so FF TDs can go around to country voters and say "shure didnt we bring you the Department of the Marine to good ol cavan - shure, I couldnt tell you why we needed to bring it here but shure isnt it only mighty".

Its just bad, bad, bad policy with only electoral benefit for FF in mind. Hopefully it will backfire on them.

Cork

Originally posted by Sand

Its just bad, bad, bad policy with only electoral benefit for FF in mind. Hopefully it will backfire on them.

Companys move location everyday - but do public servants think they deserve the certainty of remaining in the same location?

This is not a certainty in the private sector.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork
Why should the regions pay second fiddle to Dublin?

Who says they are Cork? Can you point to any government which has been anti-regions? Sure aren't there enough non-Dublin ministers in the current shower to balance the thing out?

Originally posted by Cork
Dublin cannot cope with its traffic, housing needs or even the refuse it generates.

And 10000 less civil servants won't make a blind bit of difference, especially if the government sells their current office space and it is utilised by new buisness as you claimed will happen a while ago. Furthermore, the government shouldn't be relying on vote-grabbing stunts to address those serious concerns.

Originally posted by Cork
We live in a small country. We live in an era of video conferencing. There are no obstacles to decentralisation from a longistics point of view.

Couldn't the same have been said about the recent EU accession on Mayday, and EU/US summit? Maybe Dubya could have stayed in the White House and talked to Bertie via videolink, saved us the cost of the police state in Clare and Dubya the embarrassment of Vestgate?

Originally posted by Cork
Companys and shops change location change location often in the public sector and employees just evaluate the move.

And private industry does so based on proper planning, with a sound financial basis. No private company moves shop to placate the ****kickers and shore up the FF vote in 2007...

Cork

Originally posted by therecklessone

And private industry does so based on proper planning, with a sound financial basis. No private company moves shop to placate the ****kickers and shore up the FF vote in 2007...

So when a government decides to do something for the regions - it is said to be political.

Why? There needs to be proper regionalisation in this country.

Opposisition Partys have consistantly failed to bring this about.

Why should people from the country have to relocate to Dublin if they want to work for the civil service?

The government should also giive the go ahead for the Limerick / Sligo Rail Route.

Elections in this country were fought over the idea of a airport in Knock. Many years later - the airport in booming.

At the time it was also said to be political - but it was needed.

People travel for hours in cars getting to work in Dublin - It is only common sence to decentralise.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork

So when a government decides to do something for the regions - it is said to be political.

Why? There needs to be proper regionalisation in this country.

Agree on the second point. Thats why I'd be opposed to the government's proposals. Do it rationally, based on need and economics, with a proper regional policy in place, and leave the parish-pump where it belongs...in the past.

Originally posted by Cork


Why should people from the country have to relocate to Dublin if they want to work for the civil service?

Why should people from Dublin have to relocate to the regions if they want to continue to work for the civil service?

You'll have to do better than that Cork.

Cork

Originally posted by therecklessone



Why should people from Dublin have to relocate to the regions if they want to continue to work for the civil service?

You'll have to do better than that Cork.

But they don't. Noboby is being forced to relocate - they have the option to remain in Dublin.

Public service workers have accepted large amounts of public money under the bench marking deal for changes in work practices and flexability.

If they want to relocate they can. If they don't - they don't have to.

Boston

Originally posted by Cork
But they don't. Noboby is being forced to relocate - they have the option to remain in Dublin.

You don't know this for a fact. It's almost certain people will be forced to move. if they shut down the building you work in you move. You make be given the option of staying in dublin or going to the country, you probably won't be given the option of where in dublin you go, since you normally arn't.

You can't say that they have options since you don't know the fine details of how it will work yet. Also benchmarking had nothing to do with relocation.

uncivilservant

Notwithstanding my previous comment, i feel it necessary to address these misconceptions.

(Don't worry Cork - I don't expect you to respond to any of the questions i may ask. I just want to clear up a few things.)

Originally posted by Cork
But they don't. Noboby is being forced to relocate - they have the option to remain in Dublin.

True, for civil servants the option is there to stay in Dublin. The problem being that not all public servants are civil servants, and many staff employed in State agencies are being told to take it or leave it.

You're also ignoring the fact that while the individual can stay in Dublin, the job is leaving town, minus the individual's experience, knowledge and expertise. Hardly a great use of resources.

Public service workers have accepted large amounts of public money under the bench marking deal for changes in work practices and flexability.

Unless I'm mistaken, at no point was benchmarking contingent on decentralisation. If you have evidence to the contrary I'd like to see it.

Extract from an article by Peter Nolan - National Secretary of IMPACT:

The changes required of civil servants under benchmarking are more exacting than in other parts of the public sector. The chairs of the Performance Verification Groups (PVGs), set up under the deal to judge whether sufficient progress is being made to justify Sustaining Progress pay increases, have said they expect modernisation progress reports for the first half of 2004 to be completed by the end of April. And these are likely to be at least as exacting as those drawn up for the last half of 2003. The independent chairperson of the civil service PVG has already written individually to secretary generals, specifying areas where he expects further improvements in advance of the next Sustaining Progress payments, which are due to public servants in July 2004.

This is a massive undertaking, even if it may not be obvious from some of the media coverage of benchmarking. The PVG process has certainly swallowed up huge amounts of my time. And I know the same is true of other union leaders, not to mention senior departmental officials. If decentralisation is not handled carefully and realistically, the unintended side effect could be to divert energy from the modernisation programme and undo the benefits that taxpayers and service users expect in exchange for benchmarking payments.

http://www.impact.ie/decentral/paireland.htm

If they want to relocate they can. If they don't - they don't have to.

While ultimately true for civil servants, this statement is a gross oversimplification of the situation.

Cork

You're also ignoring the fact that while the individual can stay in Dublin, the job is leaving town, minus the individual's experience, knowledge and expertise. Hardly a great use of resources.

Point taken. But I had to move with my job about a year ago.

It is pretty common in the private sector.

I was once working in Kerry & a guy was told his job was moving to Dublin. He was told "take it or leave it".

Companys move and change location. But people who work for the public service may not be used of this.

The Public Service has largely been Dublin based since it was under the control of the British.

joolsveer

Public servants are expected to move wherever they are sent - I spent two stints in Cork and it was not optional. But at least if you are coerced you must be paid removal expenses. This is not on offer in the proposed plan. I know of a number of offices which closed down and some of the employees were passed from billy to jack until they used the courts to get their just desserts.
If public servants are forced to hell or to Connacht this time I can predict that the courts will be busy.
If modern technology is so great and widely available how come I can't get BB from eircon in Dublin 15? I don't believe that the infrastructure to support e-government exists outside Cork, Dublin and Limerick.

arcadegame2004

A lot of what I am reading here shows why we need decentralisation. I see here very clearly the "Dublin mindset" that wants Dublin to continue getting all the goodies regarding investment and jobs. I am sorry. But the majority of the public live outside of Dublin and we are entitled to a fair share too. I agree that the Government should compensate civil-servants though. I am surprised they are not doing this.

therecklessone

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
A lot of what I am reading here shows why we need decentralisation. I see here very clearly the "Dublin mindset" that wants Dublin to continue getting all the goodies regarding investment and jobs.

Thats a misrepresentation of whats been said so far. And you know it.

I am not personally opposed to decentralisation, I am opposed to it being done to win votes for the current government, with no thought having gone into the effect and the practicalities. Do it based on sound principles and you will find a lot less hostility.

Has anyone estimated the impact large scale arrivals in country towns will have on the local housing market?

What about the provision of public services? The impact on local schools for example? Recreational facilities? Transport infrastructure?

FFS, there's towns in this country can't cope with a couple of asylum seekers, how are they going to manage with a couple of hundred families moving in?

Quite apart from all of that, there will be a huge impact on the efficiency of government departments in the changeover as pointed out by uncivilservant. Experienced staff are hard to replace.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork


Companys move and change location. But people who work for the public service may not be used of this.

Or maybe they'd be more receptive if they thought this was a well-planned policy to regenerate the regions, instead of seeing it for what it is, a cynical attempt at parish-pump politiking.

You know Cork, I's starting to see the attraction of repeating the same point ad nauseam...

lucernarian

Are you familiar with the decentralisation program at all?

Why do you ask such a question? I am fairly familiar with the decentralisation programme but whatever you do, make sure you dont take the original point on board.

I think ArcadeGame has a fair point when most posters here look at places outside Dublin, e.g. Cavan and Letrim and treat the places and the people in them as uncivilised. Many of these comments are based on stereotypes.

I dont think this kind of Decentralisation can succeed if moving with the Depeartment is an option.

My point about the lack of knowledge among some people about the new locations of the various institutions has been further proven since my last post

uncivilservant

Originally posted by To_be_confirmed
Why do you ask such a question? I am fairly familiar with the decentralisation programme but whatever you do, make sure you dont take the original point on board.

Strange as it may seem, I asked the question in an attempt to ascertain if you were actually familiar with the Decentralisation program.

All Decentralising departments have given their staff information on the proposed locations & have placed the information on their Departmental websites. www.publicjobscaf.ie contains the same information. Furthermore, many civil servants are capable of using their initiative and can find this information out all by themselves.

I think ArcadeGame has a fair point when most posters here look at places outside Dublin, e.g. Cavan and Letrim and treat the places and the people in them as uncivilised. Many of these comments are based on stereotypes.

I think you need to look past your preconceptions about the attitudes of civil servants. There's more to it than some (perceived) anti-rural bias.

I dont think this kind of Decentralisation can succeed if moving with the Depeartment is an option.

Pardon?

My point about the lack of knowledge among some people about the new locations of the various institutions has been further proven since my last post

See above.

ishmael whale

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
A lot of what I am reading here shows why we need decentralisation. I see here very clearly the "Dublin mindset" that wants Dublin to continue getting all the goodies regarding investment and jobs.

The proposed decentralisation will not make any significant contribution to development in the regions. The National Spatial Strategy analysis points out that the problem is no alternative location, not even Limerick or Cork, can offer the same benefits of scale as Dublin. They suggest (similar to the ignored Buchanon report) that what is needed is to create a few centres in the regions that might compete.

The proposed decentralisation scatters too widely. It will not create necessary economies of scale in any of the locations. It will therefore merely contributes to the continued dominance of Dublin, only at the expense of coherent and effective government.

While Dublin traffic has been used as an argument in favour, ironically, the proposed decentralisation contributes to the development of a car dependent culture in the regions. In Dublin population is concentrated enough to envisage proper public transport whereas scattered population means that proposals such as the Western Rail Corridor make no sense.

For example, Knock airport has tapped into a market for sun holiday charter flights and services aimed at serving people with relatives in the UK. However, this it has failed to become a centre for regional growth which is what it was intended to be. It actual effect is simply to deny the possibility of any other Western airport developing the economies of scale needed to be a real success.

There is a need for centralisation within the regions, not splintering of government offices without rhyme or reason.