MayDay DISGRACE!!!

sceptre

Originally posted by Victor
Dublin is further North ... long summer nights and all that

Your pants are smart Victor:D

That's why I gave it an extra half hour. Is it dark by now? (still bright as midday on Sky) It was dark at Famleigh earlier when they did a cut from the bright protest to the dark house.

(sceptre's just realised that Dublin is to the east so it gets dark there earlier anyway)

Moriarty

Originally posted by Sparks
BTW, anyone seen a riot squad member with ID numbers yet?

Afaik it's on the back of each of their helmets. Try finding something better to moan about

Sparks

Originally posted by Moriarty
*giggle*
If only you'd waited a few hours eh

Dunno why Moriarty, I've seen nothing justifying us wasting four million euro and trying to panic the entire country about the boogeymen (sorry, boogeyWombles) coming here to devestate the country and rape and pillage Dublin.

Zombrex

Originally posted by sceptre
Your pants are smart Victor:D

That's why I gave it an extra half hour. Is it dark by now? (still bright as midday on Sky) It was dark at Famleigh earlier when they did a cut from the bright protest to the dark house.

Er, Sky news are looping their footage ... is that not obvious? They even say "Recent Events" or something, rather than "LIVE!!!!!"

Zombrex

Originally posted by Sparks
Dunno why Moriarty, I've seen nothing justifying us wasting four million euro and trying to panic the entire country about the boogeymen (sorry, boogeyWombles) coming here to devestate the country and rape and pillage Dublin.

Would you prefer if you did see something to justify the large security opperation? Mass rioting perhaps? Or an Al-Queda dirt bomb?

Because things go relatively smoothly is not a reason to say we don't need security when there is the potential for so much to go wrong.

As heads of the EU at the moment, it is the responsibility of the State to provide the best security situation it can, even if nothing goes wrong.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
<lisa simpson>
See this rock? It deters Tigers.

<homer>
How does it work?

<lisa>
Well, do you see any Tigers around here?

This quote is completely apposite, because, as we all know, riot police and water cannon have no connection whatsoever with riot prevention </sarcasm>. Try a little harder next time.

Meh, the Gardai deal with far more violence in an average friday night in just O'Connell Street than we're seeing here. 13 arrests, one Garda taken to hospital (which is a matter of policy rather than proof that someone was critically injured), and several broken heads from Garda batons according to the organisers. Compare that to the usual friday night urban warfare we see in Dublin and ask yourself - if they spent that four million euro on ordinary, unsexy, not-in-the-papers-all-the-time policing, how much better off would we be?

This situation is qualitatively different. Friday night brawls on O'Connell Street don't have the potential for mayhem we see here.

Sparks

Originally posted by Wicknight
Would you prefer if you did see something to justify the large security opperation?

Yes - namely a protest that needs that many Gardai. This one doesn't, and it was obvious from well in advance that it wouldn't. This whole thing was one long wag-the-dog from start to finish.

mike65

I wonder if any of the politics board "comrades" will be able to give us some first hand reportage?




Mike.

Zombrex

Originally posted by Sparks
it was obvious from well in advance that it wouldn't.

Er how do you figure that?

Terminator

Just reading through the 'blow by blow' account on indymedia.ie. What a laughable site. God I hope those poor cretins can think of better things to do with their time in future. Glad to see the majority of people were peaceful and didn't throw missiles at the police.

As for the others I wish I was operating that cannon - I'd crank it up a nodge or two and give them a proper wash.

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
This quote is completely apposite, because, as we all know, riot police and water cannon have no connection whatsoever with riot prevention </sarcasm>. Try a little harder next time.

You might want to think a bit more before saying that. Water cannon and hundreds of riot police are used for riots. There hasn't been a riot. But you're saying that's because of the rock (sorry, the water cannon and the biggest deployment of Gardai ever). Whereas even the gardai I've been talking to have been saying that the realistic estimates of the protest put it at between two and five hundred people at the most, only forty or fifty of whom would ever get near the garda lines. That's not a requirement to have every garda in uniform and on the streets.

(Now our crime rates, that is a good reason to have every garda in uniform and on the streets, but that wouldn't get into the papers so much as the threat of a city-wide rape-and-pillage invasion of bloodthirsty wombles in need of a good thrashing, now would it?)

This situation is qualitatively different. Friday night brawls on O'Connell Street don't have the potential for mayhem we see here.

So why do you see more mayhem every friday night than you're seeing tonight?

Sparks

Originally posted by Wicknight
Er how do you figure that?

Because the last time anyone came here and caused as much trouble as the papers were predicting, his name was Cromwell.
All it was was pre-local-election hype. Nothing more.

Victor

Originally posted by Meh
This quote is completely apposite, because, as we all know, riot police and water cannon have no connection whatsoever with riot prevention </sarcasm>.

Thats like saying fire extinguishers prevent fires.

Originally posted by Meh
Try a little harder next time.This situation is qualitatively different. Friday night brawls on O'Connell Street don't have the potential for mayhem we see here.

No it is primarily quantatively different (although I suppose it's hand the crowd is sober).

Sparks

Originally posted by Terminator
As for the others I wish I was operating that cannon - I'd crank it up a nodge or two and give them a proper wash.

And probably cripple a few permanently, if you didn't actually kill them, and get sued and lose all your possessions and wind up wishing you hadn't done it. Those water cannons are called cannon for a reason...

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
There hasn't been a riot.

You might want to turn on the news there. I think you're still a couple of hours behind the rest of us...<eagerly waits for Sparks to produce his own personal definition of the word "riot">

So why do you see more mayhem every friday night than you're seeing tonight?

I don't. I've never seen a mass of several hundred demonstrators throwing cans and bottles at the police, not on a Friday night, not on any night.

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
You might want to turn on the news there. I think you're still a couple of hours behind the rest of us...<eagerly waits for Sparks to produce his own personal definition of the word "riot">

riot
A wild or turbulent disturbance created by a large number of people.

Okay, point it out to me (and try to do it realistically - even Sky is having trouble taking the video we've seen and putting the "Oh my god, we're all going to die, won't someone think of the children!" spin on it without looping it a few dozen times. A better phrase to describe what we've seen would be "minor scuffle".
And if we need four million euro every time the Gardai handle a minor scuffle, we're in more trouble than even I thought.

Law. A violent disturbance of the public peace by three or more persons assembled for a common purpose.

Yeah, see, that you might be able to make stick. Still not what most people think of when you say "riot" though.

I don't. I've never seen a mass of several hundred demonstrators throwing cans and bottles at the police, not on a Friday night, not on any night.

And you didn't see it tonight either, since there aren't several hundred demonstraters in those video clips. I'd guess 150-200 at the most from the footage, with less than fifty actually close enough to hurl stuff at Gardai.

Zombrex

Originally posted by Sparks
And if we need four million euro every time the Gardai handle a minor scuffle, we're in more trouble than even I thought.

The four million is the cost of the entire security for the entire day. We need this everytime the State hosts the most important moment in EU history since its conception, everytime 25 heads of State come to Ireland and are gathered in the same place, and every time the world is on high terrorist alert.

Stopping the Ashtown gate marchers from breaking the police line did not cost 4 million euro.

Guy:Incognito

Originally posted by Wicknight


Stopping the Ashtown gate marchers from breaking the police line did not cost 4 million euro.

i'd have done it for free:D

Me loads the sniper rifle.

sceptre

Originally posted by Wicknight
Er, Sky news are looping their footage ... is that not obvious? They even say "Recent Events" or something, rather than "LIVE!!!!!"

It said "Breaking news" all through the loops that I saw for a good hour. Didn't say "live" but then it didn't say "recent events" either. Then I went the 200 metres to watch the fireworks over the Shannon so I don't know what it said on the ten o'clock bulletin. A reasonable person would assume that "breaking news" is in fact "breaking". Obviously the reporter was rabbiting on live but it's a little misleading to use "breaking news" with old pictures without at any time pointing out theat they are old and repeated pictures. Made it look like more of a riot to be honest.

Victor

Originally posted by Wicknight
The four million is the cost of the entire security for the entire day. We need this everytime the State hosts the most important moment in EU history since its conception, everytime 25 heads of State come to Ireland and are gathered in the same place, and every time the world is on high terrorist alert. Stopping the Ashtown gate marchers from breaking the police line did not cost 4 million euro.

And despite a large multiple of that being provided for overtime, ordinary policing is being negected (see road death statistics).

Zombrex

Originally posted by Victor
And despite a large multiple of that being provided for overtime, ordinary policing is being negected (see road death statistics).

Well that is a different issue, and I certainly would have problems with way the Gardi are run and where they money goes. But that is for another thread.

The point I was trying to make is that Sparks seems to be saying there was no need for this level of security, and I believe there was. I would be impossible to predict what would happen, but with the recent events in Spain and the riots that have marked May day in other countries, I don't blame the gardi in this situation from mounting a large and well financed security operation. How often are 25 heads of state in Ireland in the same place.

Zombrex

Originally posted by sceptre
A reasonable person would assume that "breaking news" is in fact "breaking".

Not if that reasonable person had any experience watching Sky News "reporting" (using the term lightly)

Moriarty

Originally posted by Sparks
Whereas even the gardai I've been talking to have been saying that the realistic estimates of the protest put it at between two and five hundred people at the most, only forty or fifty of whom would ever get near the garda lines. That's not a requirement to have every garda in uniform and on the streets.

Sky said there were ~ 2,000 people at the protest the gardai had to break up tonight. A sight more than forty or fifty.

Sparks

Originally posted by Moriarty
Sky said there were ~ 2,000 people at the protest the gardai had to break up tonight. A sight more than forty or fifty.

If you're going to use Sky News as a trustworthy source of information, then we'd better be using Indymedia in the same way, because they're about equally accurate

Victor

Oh dear, someone hand this journo a map or an official press pack.

http://home.eircom.net/content/reuters/uNews/3117174?view=Standard

Protesters clash with police near EU summit
From:Reuters
Saturday, 01 May, 2004

DUBLIN (Reuters) - Riot police have used water cannon to drive back anarchist protesters close to the Irish president's residence as European Union leaders met inside to celebrate the bloc's historic enlargement, witnesses say.

An estimated 2,000 anti-globalisation protesters waving black and red flags and banners saying "No borders, no nations, against a Europe of capital" marched on Phoenix Park, suburban seat of President Mary McAleese's Farmleigh House mansion.

A hard core tried to break through police lines despite warnings to go back. Scuffles erupted after stones and bottles were thrown at police before the riot squad was deployed.

The clashes occurred as the leaders were attending a celebration dinner after a ceremony in which the flags of the 25 EU member states were solemnly raised to mark the accession of 10 new, mainly ex-communist east European countries.

Protesters sat down in the street on Saturday as helmeted police with riot shields, their batons drawn, backed by two water cannon borrowed from the British Northern Ireland police tried to force them back.

An Irish television commentator said it was the first time water cannon had been used in the Irish republic.

Witnesses saw at least two protesters detained. Two protesters and a policemen were injured.

Laurence Cox, a spokesman for the Dublin based Grassroots Network, said they were protesting "against the privatisation of europe, restriction of movement for workers in enlarged Europe and the increasing militarisation of Europe".

Earlier, two larger marches by trade unionists and leftists calling for a radical change in the EU's economic and labour policies passed off peacefully.

Almost half of Ireland's police force -- 5,000 out of 11,000 -- were on duty to guard the summit amid fears of terrorist attack or violent protests.

mike65

Latest from RTE

Some 2,000 protestors gathered near the Ashtown Gate of the Phoenix Park. As tension increased gardaí in riot gear were brought in and water cannon were deployed.

The gardaí began pushing the protesters backwards in the direction of the city.

One female garda was injured and 40 protesters were arrested. They were said to be from London and Cardiff. Gardaí on horseback were later brought in as the situation eased off.

Phoenix Park, suburban seat of President Mary McAleese's Farmleigh House mansion

Wha..?

Mike.

Moriarty

Originally posted by Sparks
If you're going to use Sky News as a trustworthy source of information, then we'd better be using Indymedia in the same way, because they're about equally accurate

Gosh, look at that, Reuters and RTE are quoting the same figure.

Who'd have thunk it eh.

Or perhaps reuters and RTE are caught up in the anti-whateveritisyouthinkskynewsis conspiracy.

mike65

http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=64753

It'll proberly be best read later on tomorrow when its had chance to develope into a proper shouting match.

Mike.

OMG that indymedia site is funny.

The real world is going to kick their ass..

sceptre

Originally posted by Wicknight
Not if that reasonable person had any experience watching Sky News "reporting" (using the term lightly)

I'll bow to your superior knowledge:p:D

If that's the kind of thing they normally do then a reasonable person would indeed know better (and still be a litle disgusted but that's another thread)