Linux-based Internet Cafe

MeatProduct

Dear All,

There is a strong possibility that I will be setting up an internet cafe. At the core of the cafe will be gaming. Counter Strike, BattleField 1942 and the like. I am very much in favour of having Linux on all the machines and using WineX for the gaming. The reason for posting here is that I would like your thoughts on the feasibility of doing this as opposed to using windows.

Are there significant cost savings? (a bit obvious but bear in mind that a license must be bought for WineX @ $99 per license + $60 per license per year for updates)

Will the public complain about not having windows in the cafe?

Will it turn people away?

Would it get support from the Linux community (if the Linux community got support from the internet cafe of course)?

These are my main concerns but there are many other smaller issues that I'll leave out for the moment.

Many thanks for any advice you can give me.

Nick

Emboss

Are there significant cost savings? (a bit obvious but bear in mind that a license must be bought for WineX @ $99 per license + $60 per license per year for updates)

No.

Will the public complain about not having windows in the cafe?

Most likley

Will it turn people away?

Most likley

Would it get support from the Linux community (if the Linux community got support from the internet cafe of course)?

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking here

flamegrill

Dual boot

tuxy

Originally posted by flamegrill
Dual boot

i think the main reason to have linux in a cafe is to save on windows licence cost
dual boot would defeat this purpose

Cake Fiend

If gaming is to be the core of your business, I wouldn't recommend linux. Most of the popular games appear to run quite well under WineX, but I doubt all run flawlessly at full speed. Then there are other applications to consider - gamers always want to install program X or Y, be it cheating-death, all-seeing eye, config generators, etc etc.

I would personally recommend starting with windows if you can afford it. The ease of setup and consumer familiarity will be of great help when you start off - you'll have enough niggles and problems when you start off without having to worry about configuring your linux machines properly, getting app X to work, etc etc. And something need only even look different to have Joe Public in vomiting fits of panic - I dread to think how the pe0ns would react to a completely different OS. You'd probably also have to train your staff to deal with problems on a linux system, which most of them probably would not be familiar with. When everything is all running smoothly, then you could experiment with linux on customer PCs.

These are only my views (of limited experience). I'm sure someone more knowledgable on the subject will come on and counteract my points. I have toyed with the idea of setting up the machines I admin on linux, but haven't put the plan into action yet because of the above points. When I can be sure that I can fool customers into thinking they're using windows (to avoid the idiots panicking) and that there will be no problems the ordinary staff can't handle while I'm not there, that's when I'll migrate the PCs to linux.

Emboss

Originally posted by Sico
If gaming is to be the core of your business, I wouldn't recommend linux. Most of the popular games appear to run quite well under WineX, but I doubt all run flawlessly at full speed. Then there are other applications to consider - gamers always want to install program X or Y, be it cheating-death, all-seeing eye, config generators, etc etc.

I would personally recommend starting with windows if you can afford it. The ease of setup and consumer familiarity will be of great help when you start off - you'll have enough niggles and problems when you start off without having to worry about configuring your linux machines properly, getting app X to work, etc etc. And something need only even look different to have Joe Public in vomiting fits of panic - I dread to think how the pe0ns would react to a completely different OS. You'd probably also have to train your staff to deal with problems on a linux system, which most of them probably would not be familiar with. When everything is all running smoothly, then you could experiment with linux on customer PCs.

These are only my views (of limited experience). I'm sure someone more knowledgable on the subject will come on and counteract my points. I have toyed with the idea of setting up the machines I admin on linux, but haven't put the plan into action yet because of the above points. When I can be sure that I can fool customers into thinking they're using windows (to avoid the idiots panicking) and that there will be no problems the ordinary staff can't handle while I'm not there, that's when I'll migrate the PCs to linux.

http://www.xpde.com/

This might fool them.

slartibardfast

I regularly use winex on a 2.2 athlon xp with 1gb of ram with a mid spec geforce4 ti under a custom built gentoo :-), however I find the performance unacceptable for anything above Sim City 4, it requires an inordinate amount of work to configure and then goes on to crash randomly all over the place.

do check out winex cvs for a free way to evaluate it, I however will be keeping my second pc for games...

flamegrill

Originally posted by tuxx
i think the main reason to have linux in a cafe is to save on windows licence cost
dual boot would defeat this purpose

Donkeys boll0x.

He'll obviously buy machines in bulk, the licence cost is neglidgable. He can use all the open source apps for the office equivalents.

He is best to get windows on each box, especially as he wouldn't want to alienate other people who just want to use windows. Life is this way, he can't be successfull unless he has windows or at least a dual boot. And hey, who ever said the windows copies had to be legit

Get 1 2k copy, and dual boot it on each machine.

Paul

MeatProduct

Many thanks for all your comments.

I was planning on having a dual boot but leaning heavily on Linux as the main OS. After doing some research there is significant time and money lost in internet cafes due to Windows down time, mainly viruses and random reboots.

The likes of the Internet Exchange have an unfamiliar interface initially and people seem to not mind that so I would think that that would be in favour of using Linux. As posted above there are XP themes available also which might fool the average user into thinking they are using Windows.

Regarding the support issue Emboss mentioned; what I meant there is that if members of the LUG could help with setting up the Linux side of the internet cafe then in return the internet cafe could offer services to the LUG (free web hosting, half-price internet access, etc.).

The games most probably will be a real pain to get working in Linux but once they are set up that's pretty much the end of it unless patches need to be applied or new mods are introduced.

Nick

Johnny Versace

I think it's a bad idea (commercially at least.)

Most people who use internet cafes are technically retarded. They want what they're used to.

If I were you and I really wanted to offer Linux, maybe have one PC with Linux on it that some nerd can use if he wants.

zAbbo

Originally posted by Johnny Versace
maybe have one PC with Linux on it that some nerd can use if he wants.

*take your personal comments elsewhere.*

Johnny Versace

No need to get insulting. Time to grow up perhaps?

Most people do not want to use Linux. They want to use something they're used to, get the job done as quick as possible, and leave.

Most people haven't even heard of Linux.

Originally posted by bazH
You Sir are an idiot, it wont matter what OS he`s running, any pleb will be able to work a Web Browser

Ivan

I've worked in a cyber-cafe, ran one for 18 months too.

To be perfectly honest, it wont make a difference what OS your running, so long as its a GUI and has a web browswer, thats what 95% of your customers will want.

The problem will arise when something funky happens with linux and you or your staff cannot solve the problem.

So long as you and your staff are competent enough that you can help people out if/when they have a problem, I dont see why it shouldnt work.

If it were up to me, I'd either have a few machines with 2k licences and some others with linux/WineX licences and see how it goes.

There would be no saving if you spend less on WineX only to find you have no customers because of it.

MeatProduct

I think familiarity is one of the biggest issues as mentioned above. What I would hope to do is try and market it so that it looks better, feels better and promote it heavily by giving free training to those unfamiliar with the Linux interface. It's clearly an uphill battle but if Linux is to get a hold these battles must be fought.

Nick

zAbbo

Im gauging my experience from working in an Internet Cafe, where you getting yours from, running down the mans good idea saying its a bad idea "commercially at least". Justify that.

Not really wanting to drag this off topic tho, so I`ll leave it at that. Doesnt matter if a person has heard of Linux or not. My GF had no experience with linux, and now she`s well capable of using it(Firefox and Openoffice) which are the most used apps in an Internet Cafe

MeatProduct

Originally posted by Ivan
There would be no saving if you spend less on WineX only to find you have no customers because of it.

This is my main concern. What I am trying to assess elsewhere is whether gamers care what OS it is as long as the game works just as well as it works on Windows. If gamers don't care then that's a boost to the Linux case.

Nick

Johnny Versace

bazH, there is a difference between disagreeing, and just being an asshole for no reason. You are being the latter at the moment.

Why do you think practically every Internet cafe uses Windows?

- Ease of use
- Familiarity
- Good games support
- Microsoft office

You may think "just use Linux, who cares", but this guy wants to set up a business, and is it really worth the risk?

MeatProduct

Originally posted by Johnny Versace

Why do you think practically every Internet cafe uses Windows?

- Ease of use
- Familiarity
- Good games support
- Microsoft office

You may think "just use Linux, who cares", but this guy wants to set up a business, and is it really worth the risk?

I'm confident that the ease of use issue can be overcome by taking some time to set up Linux properly so that it's geared toward novices.

Familiarity is the big problem for me, a suitable theme might help that but I'm not completely confident about that.

The games support is an issue. I feel that if I can have the top 5 LAN games working then that might be sufficient. The problem will be with new game releases that will take a while until they are supported by WineX.

MS Office is contraversial. I'm not sure if the average user will notice a big difference between OpenOffice and MS Office. I'm not sure they'll care. I actually don't know in this matter.

Many thanks for the suggestions,

Nick

Johnny Versace

Nick, I wish you the best of success with whatever setup you choose. If you're worried, better to be safe than sorry IMHO.

Good luck!

flamegrill

Keep the noise down people.

Bannings will be handed out willy nilly.

The_Conductor

As long as it has a browser with an address bar, and a word processor that is fairly intuitive- that will probably satisfy 80% of internet cafe users. My own girlfriend was using Safari on Panther- Mac OS 10.2 for weeks before she even realised there was a difference (apart from the fact that there were no blue screens and memory management was better than she expected).

MeatProduct

Originally posted by Johnny Versace
Nick, I wish you the best of success with whatever setup you choose. If you're worried, better to be safe than sorry IMHO.

Good luck!

Thank you very much! It's a tough call at the moment.

Nick

Emboss

Originally posted by MeatProduct
I'm confident that the ease of use issue can be overcome by taking some time to set up Linux properly so that it's geared toward novices.

Familiarity is the big problem for me, a suitable theme might help that but I'm not completely confident about that.

The games support is an issue. I feel that if I can have the top 5 LAN games working then that might be sufficient. The problem will be with new game releases that will take a while until they are supported by WineX.

MS Office is contraversial. I'm not sure if the average user will notice a big difference between OpenOffice and MS Office. I'm not sure they'll care. I actually don't know in this matter.

Many thanks for the suggestions,

Nick

Nick,

stating the obvious here but for the average joe.

Familiarity is _not_ an issue when it comes to windows, Games are _not_ an issue browsing the web is _not_ reading mail is _not_

Although you MIGHT be able to overcome some these issues it's not what the consumer wants.

If you're looking for help from ILUG I would assume (correct me if I'm wrong) you're not very technically proficent in the linux world.

If this is the case not only do you need to be trained, your staff and in alot of cases the users will need to be giving alot more attention from your staff.

In my expirience of cafe's in dublin and around europe the staff or not very technical, they don't need to be. hence why their not on the best of wages, so if you want to hire linux techs the yearly outgoings are all ready taken a bang

Downtime was mentioned for windows machines, when something goes wrong on a linux box and you don't know what you're doing, you're not talking about 20-30 seconds for a reboot or 3 minutes to install a patch you could really end up **** creek.

I can't see why you have such a hardon for linux in this case, I'm not big fan of MS products myself but in cases like this you're really not gaining anything by using linux.

Windows has it's place and one of them is internet cafe's.

MeatProduct

Thanks for that Emboss.

I'm fairly confident regarding my Linux skills, I worked in computer repair shops for 2 years so I have a good technical background too. The reason for the support from the Linux community is because I feel it is mutually beneficial. Both want to support and promote Linux and I think that is better served through a partnetship of some sort.

By no means have I decided that I will be going for Linux for this cafe. I am strongly considering it but I am not yet completely satisified that it is feasible.

On the up side Doom 3 will be released for Linux and that game engine will be used for other games as is the norm for ID engines.

Nick

Edit: The point about the staff is a good one. That could be the point that makes Linux a no-go.

mneylon

Reading over this thread had me giggling quietly under my breath.
Why do most Net Cafes use Windows?
- Because it's the simplest option for them to setup

Do users care if the OS is linux or Windows?
-NO. All they want is to check mail and browse a few websites

If "end user" can do what they want to do "end user" will not care what the OS is.


Total cost of ownership of running a net cafe would be lower overall if run on Linux. That is business. End of story.

Personal insults and other childish behaviour, coupled with general ignorance can turn a potentially interesting thread into a mess.
*sigh*

Emboss

Not funny.

Give over.

pickarooney

So just change the icons. You only need about five - browser, (a)MSN/(g)AIM, counterstrike, burn and (open)office for most people.
I reckon you'll attract more people with slightly lower prices than you'll turn away with no windows start button (not that you can't just skin KDE up with an XP theme).
You could conceivably have just one main server and a load of dumb terminals for the non-gaming section of the café, and have actual user accounts on the server (ah, all my lovely bookmarks are saved!), sell membership to the café etc. etc. Once you know what kind of user base you're going to have you can tailor the place to suit their needs. For the casual dropin, a generic account with a row of icons pointing to hotmail, google etc. (precious seconds count when you're paying for access by the 1/4 hour). For regular customers, have a daily/weekly/monthly charge...

Emboss

!

echomadman

Do users care if the OS is linux or Windows?
-NO. All they want is to check mail and browse a few websites

If "end user" can do what they want to do "end user" will not care what the OS is.

pfft
"end users" are fucking idiots, using linux in a cafe would be a nightmare for the staff if you offer any services beyong email access.

echomadman

MS Office is contraversial. I'm not sure if the average user will notice a big difference between OpenOffice and MS Office. I'm not sure they'll care. I actually don't know in this matter.

They will
They do

Trust me I know

mneylon

Originally posted by echomadman
pfft
"end users" are fucking idiots,

End users are an "interesting" species

MeatProduct

Originally posted by pickarooney
So just change the icons. You only need about five - browser, (a)MSN/(g)AIM, counterstrike, burn and (open)office for most people.
I reckon you'll attract more people with slightly lower prices than you'll turn away with no windows start button (not that you can't just skin KDE up with an XP theme).
You could conceivably have just one main server and a load of dumb terminals for the non-gaming section of the café, and have actual user accounts on the server (ah, all my lovely bookmarks are saved!), sell membership to the café etc. etc. Once you know what kind of user base you're going to have you can tailor the place to suit their needs. For the casual dropin, a generic account with a row of icons pointing to hotmail, google etc. (precious seconds count when you're paying for access by the 1/4 hour). For regular customers, have a daily/weekly/monthly charge...

The dumb terminals is a good one, hadn't considered that to be honest. Thank you, it could help reduce costs.

Nick

angelofdeath

i think its a really good idea, as far as familliarity is concered for your average user performing simple tasks like browsing is virtually no different, and besides thats what 90% of the customers will use it for, also, as long as your the only one with root, the customers (or staff for that matter) cant fu*ck things up, gaming may be an issue but as was said before, there will be a linux port for d3 and besides most of the games that will be played work well with winex, theres a few suggestions there as well which would be good like, to stop people being put off, skin KDE with an xp theme, hell average joe wouldnt even know the difference then

nadir

funny that this topic should come up.
I helped out run a cyber cafe run on Debian machines in a squat in holland. It was non profit and there was no gaming. Machines were basically donated. It was excellent and worked out quite well, unfortuanately I only helped out there for a little while, cause the squat was running into difficulties. But it was a success in terms of the public had no problem using mozilla on debian. And of course the set up was totaly rock solid. So from that perspective it was definately a success, I have thought about trying to set up my own linux cafe myself, but dont have the capital, or business experience.
In terms of gaming on linux, basically winex does work with some tweaking, i use it all the time for DOD and counter-strike
. wine also has come on leaps and bounds and you can do all sorts of crazy stuff like this .
But i guess really gamers, want the most performance, and wine will never perform as well as a native windows install would. What I would do is a mix, id make a gaming section, with like a bunch of machines running xp or whatever, kit out specifically for gaming, and then run the "main" other section on linux, basic multi media - brousing sections, ought to save you ALOT of cash.
BTW, im unemployed, wanna gimme a job

theciscokid

theres a few in brazil that run totally on linux boxes

i'll see if i can get a link

Emboss

then run the "main" other section on linux, basic multi media - brousing sections, ought to save you ALOT of cash.

How?


(will it save money)

Typedef

Firewall/router -- Linux
|
|
|
dhcp Server

---

>client nodes
|
|
|
Email/Webrowser boxes (the majority 10-15 boxes) Linux
|
|
Gaming boxes Doze (4 boxes).
|
|
Cute Russian chick to make the coffee (your mailorder wife).

That's how I'd run my Caf, if I was you.

Emboss

Originally posted by theciscokid
theres a few in brazil that run totally on linux boxes

i'll see if i can get a link

There is net cafe's all over the world that run 100% on linux

but not geared towards a gaming expirience

echomadman might be able to tell you how they were setup in thailiand i think it was mandrake for just mail/browsing

Emboss

Originally posted by Typedef
Firewall/router -- Linux
|
|
|
dhcp Server

---

>client nodes
|
|
|
Email/Webrowser boxes (the majority 10-15 boxes) Linux
|
|
Gaming boxes Doze (4 boxes).
|
|
Cute Russian chick to make the coffee (your mailorder wife).

That's how I'd run my Caf, if I was you.

I know linux advocates sometimes have their head stuck up the backside sometimes but

can people not read

At the core of the cafe will be gaming. Counter Strike, BattleField 1942 and the like

so having a sh*tload of linux boxes for browsing and FOUR windows machines isn't really helping him out.....

MeatProduct

Thanks very much for all those suggestions. I should have posted it before, sorry I didn't, I'm aiming towards 12 internet computers and 18 gaming computers. These numbers will probably increase but these are minimums so it's something to work with.

Counter Strike and Battle Field work reasonably well under WineX. They'll take a lot of tweaking but once the tweaking is done then that's the end of it.

Where abouts in the country are you Nadir?

Nick

Typedef

Yeah Emboss it's true and some of the self-righteous Windows lusers out there who have never even really used Linux, have big, all embracing opinions about it's 'place'.... and how the Linux guys are really just hippies and M$ really isn't that bad for the industry, delusional people, sort of like scientologists, but, they exist.

Anyway my point would that if you look around 9x% of the web cafs in town, the majority of punters are foreigners or people in transit, who can't afford a computer or internet connection, thus the whole Email/Web-browsing thing, is where the money is made.

Ergo the focus of a web caf should be internet services, since most gamers 'have' computers and most gamers 'have' internet access.

Case

Talk and Surf * around town, mostly forginers, doing email or the likes of boards.

Emboss

Originally posted by Typedef
Yeah Emboss it's true and some of the self-righteous Windows lusers out there who have never even really used Linux, have big, all embracing opinions about it's 'place'.... and how the Linux guys are really just hippies and M$ really isn't that bad for the industry, delusional people, sort of like scientologists, but, they exist.

Anyway my point would that if you look around 9x% of the web cafs in town, the majority of punters are foreigners or people in transit, who can't afford a computer or internet connection, thus the whole Email/Web-browsing thing, is where the money is made.

Ergo the focus of a web caf should be internet services, since most gamers 'have' computers and most gamers 'have' internet access.

Case

Talk and Surf * around town, mostly forginers, doing email or the likes of boards.

I'm not going to get into an OS war with you simply because every single post you make makes me want to chop both your hands off....

I'm not a windows fanatic.
I don't dislike Linux (much)
I do dislike arrogant elitist attitudes like your own that gives the Linux community a bad name. Especially Irish ones (I RULEZ I WUN LINUX)
Your ideals are not practical for his needs.
You annoy the f*ck out of me constantly.

And I don't have a link to FreeBSD in my signature to promote Bill Gates.

Cop on.

nadir

yea, not to mention the fact that the common punter is more likey to want to browse and email rather than go for a cs session. I reckon there is more moeny to be made from non gaming machine, although I could be totally wrong.

MeatProduct , im in galway.

EDIT : Damn I cant believe I took 5 minutes to write that

echomadman

where in the country are you setting this up?

"gamers" tend to be broke ass students, you're not going to make much money off em. unless theres a large community of them.
Gamers with money have their own boxes and aren't likely to be using cafe machines.
they are difficult customers, generally.

The bulk of my business comes from foreigners using their own obscure IM programs/webcams that kind of ****, are you going to be able to find *nix variants?

people typing up/updating CVs. as I said in the other thread, abiword/open office are ok but unfortunaly all HR depts are invariably running windows, send em a CV with the formatting screwed up and they bin it, your customer comes back whining that "they couldnt read the cv i typed up in here the other day, do ye not have Word?".

Its a nice idea, but if you want to offer any services beyond basic websurfing and email Linux will make it very hard for you.

Emboss

echo why don't you take your embracing opinions about it's 'place'.... and how the Linux guys are really just hippies and M$ really isn't that bad for the industry.

you self-righteous Windows luser.

skipn_easy

I would've thought gamers would be a nice reliable source of income for you. Granted a lot of gamers probably have nice kit at home but they also enjoy LANs which can be difficult to organise if they don't have cars, enough space, good coffee. An internet cafe which has a great gaming setup, comfortable environment and will allow gamers to play all night is very desirable. And when it turns into a regular thing (which it will if you're good to them) then I can only see it making you money. Put one member of staff on the night shift, and while the cafe wouldn't normally be open you'll be making money from all the gamers.
My all night gaming experiences at some internet cafes (which I won't name) haven't left me too impressed and it would be really great to see gamers catered for properly (even if it is in the south).

nadir

I know what you mean echo, i was thinking that office would be a problem alright, although you could install crossover. I guess you have a point, you could do it, but it would be alot of work. I guess what would be easier is if you just offered, a web - email, multimedia(video,audio) and priniting service. But not the service of actually editing ws documents. Basically if people have their cv on disk or online you could print it of a win machine. I know maybe its no acceptable, I dont know really how much people would want.

Gerry

Typedef, I don't see much point in running 2 OS's in the cafe, that looks like twice as much configuration, and twice as much support. Either go with one or the other. I think winex + the native ports that exist for linux could suffice for gaming, I'm not sure who has come up with proof that this wouldn't work. I do think the concerns about custom im programs are worth investigating though.

MeatProduct

There's much to be said for just having one OS, no dual boot. In my deliberations of the past week I am leaning more towards Linux at the moment. I have identified the major problems with Linux and I feel that, with the right staff, we can get over most of these problems.

Of course CV's and Word will be an issue but there will be one member of staff that will be walking around the cafe the whole time to offer assistance to anyone. Not a perfect solution but one that will address the issue.

It goes without saying that Windows is the easy option to set up but it does cost more in the long run with random reboots and viruses. Linux is much harder to set up but it offers more stability. As well as that I really think there are enough supported games for Linux to make it a viable gaming option. It's a start to getting more gaming support for Linux games. If the likes of Valve see that Linux gaming cafes are opening then they have more reason to consider doing Linux ports of games.

Many thanks to those that identified the problems that Linux would face. It's not an easy decision and I expect I'll wave betwwen Windows and Linux a few more times before I make a final decision.

Nick

Cake Fiend

/me beats Opera about in frustration

I had a pretty detailed post typed up. Then I switched focus to another window; when I returned to Opera, for reasons best known to the writers, it automatically refreshed the page. Bastards.

To summarize: As mentioned above, gamers will not be your main source of income. It's the emailers/browsers that will bring in the bulk of the cash. I suggest you worry about them before you worry about the gamers.

Bearing that in mind - some lusers will not even attempt to get their heads round an unfamiliar system in an already uncomfortable world. I have seen people close to tears when confronted with XP when used to 98. Some will go about their business completely oblivious to the details of the operating system they're using, as long as it has the basic stuff they need (browser, IM software, office software). You'll have to experiment.

If possible have a few machines running Windows, and a few running Linux and see how you get on. Otherwise, I'd have to recommend starting with Windows and seeing about phasing in Linux.

pickarooney

If you do that, maybe charge less for the linux machines (for a limited period only!) and see what influences people more - OS familiarity or budget.