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DAB in Ireland: RTE multiplex closed

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,726 ✭✭✭✭DMC


    Hmm.... something odd happens when I tune to Radio 1 on Sundays.....

    Its a couple of minutes to 2pm, and "Second Helpings" is about to start on RTÉ Radio 1 MW, and on R1 Extra on DAB. I was listening on DAB to RTÉ Radio 1 on my Roberts RD-5, when it suddenly cut off. Signal was fine, yet no sound. I tuned to other RTÉ Mux 1 channels, and nothing. I tuned to one of the stations on Mux 2, sound there, then went back to RTÉ Radio 1, and lo, there was sound. This also occurred at 11:30am, when I was listening to Marian Finucane, except in reverse, R1 Extra was finished after the religious services ended.

    It appears to me there is an issue when RTÉ issue the signal to start the R1 Extra service. To rule out my radio, does this happen to anyone else? Might be best to check on Sundays, as it happens effectively 4 times.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11 talktojoe


    Thinking of investing in a DAB Radio system.
    2 Questions:
    Is it available in Droichead Nua?
    Is the Bose Wave System any good?

    Thanks for your help
    Joe


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,726 ✭✭✭✭DMC


    DAB now live in Limerick.

    http://www.digitalradio.ie/news_articles/18_03_2008.html

    Coverage maps

    http://www.digitalradio.ie/coverage.htm

    talktojoe, you are too far south for Three Rock's signals, once/if Kippure is turned on, then yes, but not until then.


  • Subscribers Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭TCP/IP


    DMC wrote: »
    DAB now live in Limerick.

    http://www.digitalradio.ie/news_articles/18_03_2008.html

    Coverage maps

    http://www.digitalradio.ie/coverage.htm

    talktojoe, you are too far south for Three Rock's signals, once/if Kippure is turned on, then yes, but not until then.

    DMC, any idea when Kippure will be trasmitting DTV and DAB

    Thanks
    TCP/IP


  • Subscribers Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭TCP/IP


    Occording to this Mount Lenister should give people in Newbridge and Naas coverage
    http://www.irish-tv.com/mtleinst.htm


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  • Registered Users Posts: 43 e17


    There is no DAB at Mount Leinster only the DTT trial with 8 radio stations
    talktojoe wrote: »
    Thinking of investing in a DAB Radio system.
    2 Questions:
    Is it available in Droichead Nua?
    Is the Bose Wave System any good?

    Thanks for your help
    Joe


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,726 ✭✭✭✭DMC


    TCP/IP wrote: »
    DMC, any idea when Kippure will be trasmitting DTV and DAB

    No information at all on that, sadly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭galtee boy


    galtee boy wrote: »
    I'm near Mitchelstown on the Cork/Limerick Border with the Galty Mountains to the North East and Limerick slightly to the North West. I thought I was picking something up from Spur Hill in Cork City ( the only Dab signal in Munster as far as i know at the moment ), but when I face the aerial towards Cork, the signal fades away significantly, while facing in the general Limerick direction, the tuner display shows the words " Dab Ireland " on the screen and lights up 10 of the 16 signal "bars" on the display. But no stations are coming through, so that's why I'm wondering is it some kind of carrier signal, in advance of Woodcock Hill being switched on ( next one to live according to the rumours ) ? I think I might have a reasonable view to Woodcock, even if it is approx 30 miles away, especially with the band III loft aerial. Any ideas what I'm picking up and where it's coming from anyone ?

    Thanks.


    Rte Dab from Woodcock Hill coming in loud and clear here in Mitchelstown, admittedly with a loft aerial. Will buy portable dab radio now and experiment some more with that. Any reception reports from anyone else in the North Cork/South Limerick area ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,726 ✭✭✭✭DMC


    Interesting article in the Irish Times' Business section today (here for those who can get behind the paywall)

    It talks about the end of MW on 567 kHz on Monday afternoon,

    There is one peculiar bit in it, by Brian Greene, a digital media consultant, who said
    "killing MW to fund DAB is a crazy move by RTÉ" because DAB has a short range while MW can be picked up by listeners in the UK.

    If someone can link to it in full, it would be great. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,726 ✭✭✭✭DMC


    Radio 1 Extra should be starting just before 7pm tonight, to see if the issue which I reported on Sunday occurs again...

    Keep ye posted.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,726 ✭✭✭✭DMC


    Two radios today, my sturdy, faithful Roberts RD-5 and my Roberts Sports DAB (RD-14)

    At precisely 1859, the > flag appeared Radio 1's display on the RD-5 to indicate that R1 Extra had started, and, unlike Sunday, the sound did not cut out. Radio 1 went from 128kbps to 112kbps stereo, and R1 Extra appeared in glorious monotone, 64kbps without so much as a glitch.

    And no worries on the Sports DAB either, yet I didnt have it to hand on Sunday to see if the same issue occurred there.

    EDIT: just noticed that the RTÉ Sports rolling bulletin channel is off air, indicated as "not available" on my radios.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,726 ✭✭✭✭DMC


    Time to tally the bitrates again when R1 Extra is turned on on Mux 1

    RTE 2fm - Joint Stereo - 112kbps
    RTE 2XM - Joint Stereo - 128kbps
    RTE Choice - Mono - 64kbps
    RTE Gold - Joint Stereo - 112kbps
    RTE Junior - Mono - 80kbps
    RTE Lyric - Joint Stereo - 160kbps
    RTE News - Mono - 64kbps

    RTE Radio 1 - Joint Stereo - 112kbps
    R1 Extra - Mono - 64kbps
    RnaG - Joint Stereo - 112kbps
    RTE Sport - Not available
    RTE xxxx - Mono - 96kbps

    Edit: added in that all RTE stations in stereo are in Joint Stereo


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,321 ✭✭✭Foggy43


    Galtee Boy!

    I am in Ireland almost 24 hours and I have tested my DAB/DRM radios.
    To be exact I am in Knocklong, Co. Limerick.
    I have got DAB coming in loud and clear on 12C 227.360mhz. Last scan had 11 stations. Signal is 100%, no external aerial required.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    Thanks for the link to this thread, DMC

    Never heard about DAB in Limerick until now. It would explain why more shops around here seem to be selling DAB radios - they actually have a reason now!

    What's the station lineup outside of Dublin? Is it just the RTÉs?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,733 ✭✭✭Zaphod


    DMC wrote: »
    There is one peculiar bit in it, by Brian Greene, a digital media consultant, who said

    If someone can link to it in full, it would be great. :)

    It's on his blog. I think he also posts here as 'BHG'.
    JOHN COLLINS IRISH TIMES 21/03/2008

    RTÉ WILL cease broadcasting on medium wave (MW) next Monday just as it expands its digital radio service to cover almost half the population.

    This week the State broadcaster extended its trial of digital radio technology to Cork and Limerick, making it available to 44 per cent of the population.

    Based on the Digital Audio Broadcasting (DAB) standard, the trial broadcasts include seven new RTÉ digital radio services including a children’s radio service and a dedicated news headline channel, as well as content from commercial broadcasters.

    However, some industry observers have wondered if the State broadcaster is backing the right technology, particularly in light of its statutory obligation to broadcast to the Irish abroad.

    Brian Greene, a digital media consultant, says “killing MW to fund DAB is a crazy move by RTÉ” because DAB has a short range while MW can be picked up by listeners in the UK.

    For its part, RTÉ maintains that its services are available on the Sky Digital platform and over the web.

    According to JP Coakley, RTÉ Radio’s head of operations, the broadcaster will save €1.5 million in annual running costs by shutting down MW, of which €1 million relates to electricity costs.

    Coakley says the MW infrastructure had “an immediate need to inject circa €2.4 million in capital as the installation is reaching the end of its natural life”.

    The savings will not just fund DAB but a number of online projects, improvements to FM broadcasting and additional programming resources, according to Coakley.

    “That said, national DAB has to stand as a separate business and rationale - it’s about an industry moving together to provide the next generation of radio to the listener, rather than just what RTÉ can fund on its own,” says Coakley.

    The replacement that RTÉ is proposing for MW is long wave (LW). RTÉ installed a new LW transmitter in 2007, which also supports broadcasting in a newer digital technology called Digital Radio Mondiale (DRM).

    However, Greene maintains that because DRM is more efficient, it has to be broadcast at a lower power. As a result, an Algerian radio station also broadcasting on LW252 is causing interference with RTÉ’s signal.

    Coakley concedes Tipaza in Algeria interferes with LW252 at night in London and parts of southeast England, but points out that MW is not available at all in London.

    This month Greene wrote to Cathal Goan, director-general of RTÉ, raising questions about the broadcaster’s transmission planning and move to digital.

    He also questions just how successful DAB has been in the UK, despite the fact that well over five million receivers have been sold there and the format dominates sales of kitchen, portable and clock radio sales.

    He says DAB is now 23 years old, having first been demonstrated in 1985. It uses lower quality MPEG-2, compared to the more efficient MPEG-4 used by DRM and newer digital standards such as DAB+, and has yet to be a “roaring success” in the rest of Europe.

    In many ways RTÉ has made a pragmatic choice by choosing DAB given its installed base in our largest neighbour and the spill-over of retailers from Britain that are selling DAB receivers in Ireland.

    “We see DAB and DRM as complementary in the same way that we see FM and LW as complementary,” explains Coakley. “They do different things. One gives a good quality domestic service, the other is poorer quality but has a greater reach.”

    Coakley believes, however, that DRM is still unproven. “It is still very difficult to find reasonably priced sets and there’s no new content available.”

    Digital radio primer: the facts

    RTÉ is one of the main players in an industry grouping giving trials to Dab (digital audio broadcasting) in Ireland.

    RTÉ began a public digital audio broadcasting trial in the first half of 2007 and the broadcasts are now available to 44 per cent of the population.

    An independent industry group, digitalradio.ie, has been formed to smooth the transition to digital radio and to promote its uptake.

    Dab receivers automatically tune into available stations and there is much less crackle and hiss compared to FM.

    Additional information such as the artist and song title can be embedded in the Dab broadcast and displayed on the receiver’s screen.

    Companies such as Virgin are giving trials to Dab for multimedia services including the delivery of TV and music downloads to mobile handsets.


    This is his original blog post where writes about RTÉ killing MW to invest in DAB.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,726 ✭✭✭✭DMC


    No worries, squire. :)

    In Cork and Limerick, you only get Mux 1, which contains all of the RTÉ stations, as listed above.

    From Three Rock and Clermont Cairn, you get Mux 2.

    Actually, now I'm here, I'll list the bitrates and stations on Mux 2, for the record....

    Dublin's 98FM - Joint Stereo - 128kbps
    DAP All 80's - Joint Stereo - 112kbps
    FM104 - Stereo - 128kbps
    Radio Kerry - Mono - 96kbps
    DAP Mocha - Joint Stereo - 112kbps
    Newstalk - Mono - 64kbps
    Phantom - Stereo - 128kbps
    Q102 - Joint Stereo - 128kbps
    Spin 1038 - Stereo - 128kbps
    Today FM - Stereo - 128kbps

    Dunno why some stations are Joint Stereo, and others are not..... ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    Yeah it doesn't make sense why they're not all using Joint Stereo if they're doing stereo at all - it's not like they have bandwidth to spare! However I don't know how good MP2 is at doing it - MP3 Joint Stereo sounds more sophisticated from what I can see (I use it all the time and don't really notice the difference).

    What sampling rates do the stations use? Are they all 44.1kHz?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Its a complete headscrew to actually get that info per channel from my radio, but anyways...

    Spin are 48kHz at least, and if I'm bored later I'll get the rest. Morphy Richards have the worst UI known to man!


  • Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭david23


    DMC wrote: »
    Dunno why some stations are Joint Stereo, and others are not..... ?

    I would have thought they are all joint (jointly-encoded) stereo, rather than discrete (seperately-encoded) stereo. Discrete stereo sounds really rough at 128k as there aren't enough bits available.

    In the UK only one station uses discrete stereo, BBC Radio 3, which has a bit rate of 192k.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,726 ✭✭✭✭DMC


    DMC wrote: »
    Hmm.... something odd happens when I tune to Radio 1 on Sundays.....

    I didn't hear it at 10am or 11:30am, but the switch just before 2pm was fine, just like Friday evening.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    Virtually all DAB MP2 streams in the UK use a sampling rate of 48kHz, though an option to use 24kHz (more in mind for speech-based stations) is available.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    64k mono would want to use 24kHz sampling :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    watty wrote: »
    64k mono would want to use 24kHz sampling :)
    I don't think TalkSport on the Score NI multiplex does. :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭Lucious Sweet


    When are we likely (if ever) to see Mux 2 in the Limerick area.
    The main reason I want a DAB Radio is for Phantom and Newstalk.

    moz.

    DMC wrote: »
    No worries, squire. :)

    In Cork and Limerick, you only get Mux 1, which contains all of the RTÉ stations, as listed above.

    From Three Rock and Clermont Cairn, you get Mux 2.

    Actually, now I'm here, I'll list the bitrates and stations on Mux 2, for the record....

    Dublin's 98FM - Joint Stereo - 128kbps
    DAP All 80's - Joint Stereo - 112kbps
    FM104 - Stereo - 128kbps
    Radio Kerry - Mono - 96kbps
    DAP Mocha - Joint Stereo - 112kbps
    Newstalk - Mono - 64kbps
    Phantom - Stereo - 128kbps
    Q102 - Joint Stereo - 128kbps
    Spin 1038 - Stereo - 128kbps
    Today FM - Stereo - 128kbps

    Dunno why some stations are Joint Stereo, and others are not..... ?


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    watty wrote: »
    64k mono would want to use 24kHz sampling :)

    And Newstalk do ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    What's the point in using 48kHz on music stations if most/all their music is sourced from CDs? Surely it would be better in every way if they go down to 44.1?


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The system doesn't support 44.1k sampling. Only 48k or 24k.
    The 48k rate allows marginally cheaper crystal and cheaper analogue filters than the 44.1k, which had some other reason I forget.

    Obviously the quality would be slightly higher if the 44.1k was already compressed and you could have 44.1k MP2 on DAB. But CDs are not compressed and there is MUCH more loss of quality going to 192k or lower than the clock resampling. You would have to be using 320k MP2 and VERY good HiFi and golden ears to notice resampling of 44.1 to 48.
    Also the actual content has very very little above 12kHz and nothing at all above about 20KHz. The MP2 (or MP3) encoding process removes nuances above 10kHz much more than the resampling would distort.

    Note that many cheaper sound cards/chips nowadays only run at 96KHz and resample to/from actual required bitrate in CPU software so can have a higher CPU overhead playing CD Audio but reading drive in Digital Mode than some chipsets have decoding 48KHz MP3!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,241 ✭✭✭god's toy


    Just picked up a Pure Highway and I'm so loving DAB!

    Well ok living in Wicklow I cant use it when I want right now but as soon as I get to the Glen of the Downs on the way to work it's there and sounding fab!

    Love how it's upgradeable to DAB+ via internet if that comes over here and that you can connect your MP3 player to it and it sends everything over via FM to your car radio. Not so much loving the wires left behind like antenna, power and line in-line out. Also you have to have it plugged into your car if you want the FM transmitter bit to work (so little chance of using it at home so)

    That 80's Radio station on DAB is FAB!

    This new toy kinda makes me want to drive around the hills of wicklow just to see where I can and cant pick DAB up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,726 ✭✭✭✭DMC


    Its in the right place :)

    Where did you pick up the Pure Highway? I was in Belfast this morning, and I didnt see it in the high street stores. I did notice

    2 wires straggling the dash, (3 if you have a Garmin or Tom Tom sat-nav) makes me waver away from one. If its possible, can you provide pics with the way you have it installed, just to see how untidy or tidy it can be?

    I did see the Roberts RD-41... and its a class piece of kit. Dunno if its DAB+ ready, must investigate.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭david23


    DMC wrote: »
    I did see the Roberts RD-41... and its a class piece of kit. Dunno if its DAB+ ready, must investigate.

    I'm not sure but I would wait for this one:

    http://www.robertsradio.co.uk/pages/wm202.html

    Only £10 more and it receives DAB/DAB+/Wi-Fi, a very impressive piece of kit.
    It uses this chipset:

    http://www.frontier-silicon.com/media/releases/07/1015_rapidepv6.htm


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