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EU lead ban in both shot shells and bullets imminent!

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  • 04-09-2017 8:38pm
    #1
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,957 ✭✭✭✭


    @MODS, although posted on more crp on the way thread.I think this one is pretty important for everyone to see this one.This doesnt just affect hunters anymore but everyone.


    EU wants to ban lead in both shot and bullets
    Not content with not getting guns banned the EU now wants to ban bullets with any sort of lead in them This one is deadly serious as it also includes shotgun and .22 bullets as well.
    Gotta ask where was NARGC/FACE on this??Been going on a consultation paper since JUNE of this year.:rolleyes:

    European Commission: Banning bullets - do it for the Birds!
    Trying to ban guns was not successful – next: Ban on bullets!
    EU Commission has asked ECHA (European Chemical Agency) to conduct study and consultation to ban lead bullets. [1] To avoid mistakes done with misguided firearms directive, like missing impact assessment, they have started a public consultation for restrictions of Lead in shot in wetlands AND ”Any other uses of lead ammunition (than lead in shot in wetlands), including hunting in other terrains than wetlands and target shooting. Lead weights for fishing.”
    According to their statement ”Modern lead-free ’gunshot cartridges, such as steel cartridges, are suitable for all types of hunting in wetlands and are widely available.”
    In other words, EU is currently asking for public feedback on commission plan to ban lead (and copper) on ammunition – using the environment as an excuse.
    The attempt to ban concerns [2] ammunition which contain lead in concentrations greater than 1% by weight, for shooting with a shot gun within a wetland or where spent gunshot would land within a wetland, including shooting ranges or shooting grounds in wetlands. And in addition, there is another parallel study on restriction on ”other ammunition” meaning lead-based rifle and pistol ammunition. In other words – pretty much all ammunition.
    Problem 1:
    The definition used for defining the wetland is the following [1]
    “areas of marsh, fen, peatland or water, whether natural or artificial, permanent or temporary, with water that is static or flowing, fresh, brackish or salt, including areas of marine water the depth of which at low tide does not exceed six metres”.
    The Ramsar definition of wetlands is a comprehensive and internationally recognized definition but it means that lead bullets will be banned up to 24,3% of surface area in for example Sweden.
    Problem 2: All current rifles would not be usable anymore. This includes pistols as well. Long range shooting would become impossible for civilians. This is because for any kind of accuracy bullet stability is essential. The issue comes from barrel twist, which is usually calculated with Millers formula which is slightly improved version of classical Greenhill formula, which indicates that bullet material density matters – when for example calculating values for .308, for which barrel twist is usually 12 inches with traditional lead ammunition, corresponding rifle twist, for example, copper bullets would be about 9,5 inches. This means that your expensive rifle just became unsuitable for ammunition currently available.
    Problem 3:
    In addition to this – it's not only hunters who are going to be royally shafted with this restriction:
    It pretty much makes sport shooting impossible by banning .22 ammunition, which we all know is mostly lead.
    Problem 4: Steel, which is considered to be suitable ”cheap” enough alternative wears out barrels like there is no tomorrow. I
    Problem 5:
    t is also classified in many countries as armor piercing round material, which means steel bullets are banned.
    Problem 6: Not all shotguns are rated for steel shots. The hunters would have to in some cases buy new shotguns.
    According to the commission, all of this is ok, because it provides ”Increased (long-term) opportunities for birdwatching.” [2]
    Solution:
    The public consultation on this proposed restriction will start on 21 June 2017 and end on 21 December 2017, which means that YOU should provide feedback as soon as possible to by reading and providing information according to document [2] .
    It is of utmost importance to get involved in this, both on as individuals, and as hunting and sport-shooting organizations because, ECHA considers only the environmental perspective – which according to past does not pain a pretty picture.
    For example banning of copper shots has been already proposed. The biggest problem, according to our sources is that at the moment is that for example Danmarks Jaegerforbund lobbies hard for banning lead ammunition by sending out a strong signal that lead can be replaced easily in all ammunition, including .22. In addition to this, they claimed that NORMA is already researching steel ammunition for other calibers for the civilian market. According to ECHA, there should be zero-tolerance for lead, which means most likely long term campaign
    What can I do:
    - Spread information. Get your own hunting and sports shooting association to participate and provide their statement for the public consultation! Provide a statement as an individual. Clock is ticking!
    [1] https://echa.europa.eu/…/…/current-a...n-restrictions
    [2] Public Consultation:
    https://echa.europa.eu/…/d7fb96cf-79...-3568-399ca20151…
    __________________
    NOTE! All my posts are for information, education ,or entertainment value only.They are not to be taken as legal advice,or a course of action to persue.Furthermore,my posts are copyright and no individual or organisation may use them without my express written permission.

    The EU gun grab 2015 onwards.What did you

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #2
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    Have this EU shower nothing better to be doing than dreaming up ways of pissing people off ? I certainly am. All my shotguns are old side by sides which i love dearly, if this ban comes in then they are wall hangers, as the barrels would not last 5 minutes shooting steel. Bismuth loads are so expensive the prices would make Bill Gates wince. Stupidity.

    Headline on one of the papers the other day made me laugh "EU bans vacuum cleaners over 900watts". It reminded me of the old British papers running headlines about the EU banning bent banana's, but it was true, they did ban vacuum cleaners over 900watts.

    To much time on their hands and completely out of touch.


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    #3
    123shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭123shooter


    One reason why I can't wait for Brexit to happen..........sooner the better..........wish they would get on with it.

    The EU would last just a few weeks afterwards. Say goodbye to the lot of them and their hangers on.


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    #4
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Well they're banning hoovers so not a surprise.

    The sooner this failed EU superstate thing dies away the better.
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    #5
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    I heard this before, any troublesome politician was sent away to Brussels as a way of keeping them quiet and out of touch with the state.
    Of course these geniuses didn't do nothing out in EU land instead they dreamt up all these half baked schemes and with no oversight from rational people started to push them through, they became directives which Nation states are obliged to follow.
    We have a good share of useless embarrassments out their, Hogan et al are all sent over because of the shite they created here and this is the result.


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    #6
    123shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭123shooter


    If ever confused about the EU just read up on a man called Neil Kinnock ex labour party leader from 1980's


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    #7
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    CJhaughey wrote: »
    We have a good share of useless embarrassments out their, Hogan et al are all sent over because of the shite they created here and this is the result.


    Do you remember Deputy Larry O'hooligan in Halls pictorial weekly ? A complete pisstake but uneeringly accurate. (scroll to 21.50)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cIAhCGhZ5E


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    #8
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    123shooter wrote: »
    One reason why I can't wait for Brexit to happen..........sooner the better..........wish they would get on with it.

    The EU would last just a few weeks afterwards. Say goodbye to the lot of them and their hangers on.

    If the brits pull out without paying their "divorce bill", there will be a massive deficit in the EU budget, we'll see how popular the EU is when the bill lands on the mat in Leinster House.


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    #9
    Walter Mittys Brother
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 314 ✭✭Walter Mittys Brother


    gunny123 wrote: »
    If the brits pull out without paying their "divorce bill", there will be a massive deficit in the EU budget, we'll see how popular the EU is when the bill lands on the mat in Leinster House.

    Wouldn't be the first time Ireland paid the bill for EU without so much as a whimper of protest :mad:

    Politicians here won't stand up to EU ................ too busy licking the gravy train :mad:


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    #10
    123shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭123shooter


    gunny123 wrote: »
    If the brits pull out without paying their "divorce bill", there will be a massive deficit in the EU budget, we'll see how popular the EU is when the bill lands on the mat in Leinster House.

    No it will land at the doors of Irish people with another dreamt up tax for them to pay just so the elite of this country can stay in their little club and Britain will not pay except for a small amount.


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    #11
    ezra_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭ezra_


    How would they go about banning lead rounds?

    To a certain extent, I can see the the 'logic' behind banning lead shot (as is done in the UK in wetland areas) - not that I agree with it and I haven't seen any studies that demonstrate harm from it.

    But there are alternatives to lead: steel shot and copper shot, etc

    I have never seen anything other than a lead .22 round and I don't think there are so many rounds being fired that our cattle / sheep are eating up the spent rounds


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    #12
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    I don't see the German shooting community taking this rubbish lying down, and its election year over there. Hopefully it will be watered down to such an extent it will be pointless.


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    #13
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,957 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    It should be the ENTIRE EU shooting community telling the EU to go pound sand on this.But what worries me is this; organisations on a national level, both here and abroad, who have reps in the Brussels political world.With nice offices and paid staff who are there on your money and time, haven't triggered on the second time within an 18 month period on another threat!

    And on a national level, ours are playing at internal politics and as Mel Gibson so elegantly put it in Braveheart "arguing what shade of brown their ****e is":( Or as Freud put it "The tryanny of small differences." Seriously,heads need to be knocked from Ballymote to Brussels.We are paying these organisations peoples salaries and surely we can expect better??

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #14
    grassroot1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭grassroot1


    FACE have been dealing with this issue as have the NARGC there was an article in a recent issue of the digest on the subject.
    We must fight the ban as fiercely as possible as lot of older shotguns will be unusable. Coillte also have an objection to steel usage in firearms in there woods
    The grounds on which the ban is being put forward is that lead is a threat to human health rather than migratory duck. This a more difficult position to defend.
    It is not so long ago the UK were trying to bring in a ban on lead ammunition so the EU are not alone with lunatic plans.


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    #15
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    grassroot1 wrote: »
    It is not so long ago the UK were trying to bring in a ban on lead ammunition so the EU are not alone with lunatic plans.

    Yeah, i have no problem with the uk looking to bring in laws for the uk or the Irish government bringing in laws in Ireland, because we can fight the proposals locally. What i dislike is the EU handing down blanket bans on things like tablets of stone from on high.


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    #16
    123shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭123shooter


    But the EU is in total control they are your rulers. You no longer have a country or a nationality but only in name.

    The EU is your government...................Have you been asleep or what?


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    #17
    cavan shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭cavan shooter


    Its only a matter of time that lead shot will be banned for use over wetlands, in fact i seem to remember Ireland signed up to that years ago (1970's) but could be arsed implementing it.

    Its the definition of a wetland that scares me: FFKS sake half of Cavan is a wetland and poor Leitrim, sure there swimming.

    Rolling it out across the board Like Denmark and other Eu's has me slightly concerned considering that my trusty AYA manufactured in 1962 is not Fleur de Lys stamped.

    Now the practicalities of having lead shot for ducks on wetlands vs pheasant on "dry" ground aint my problem, i'm a law abiding citizen and when I shoot ducks I will use non toxic and when i shoot pheasant I will use lead. Its similiar to having only 3 shots in an automatic, but watch out for the blanket ban to make life easier for the "Plods"

    If its going to happen and we ain't going to stop it then lets prepare for it and push for alternatives.

    I think the effort needs to be put into finding the reasonable alternative and making sure its available at a reasonable price.

    I will now sit back and wait to be savaged...but i've night duty so mightened get back for a day or so :)


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    #18
    123shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭123shooter


    cavan shooter wrote: »
    Its only a matter of time that lead shot will be banned for use over wetlands, in fact i seem to remember Ireland signed up to that years ago (1970's) but could be arsed implementing it.

    Its the definition of a wetland that scares me: FFKS sake half of Cavan is a wetland and poor Leitrim, sure there swimming.

    Rolling it out across the board Like Denmark and other Eu's has me slightly concerned considering that my trusty AYA manufactured in 1962 is not Fleur de Lys stamped.

    Now the practicalities of having lead shot for ducks on wetlands vs pheasant on "dry" ground aint my problem, i'm a law abiding citizen and when I shoot ducks I will use non toxic and when i shoot pheasant I will use lead. Its similiar to having only 3 shots in an automatic, but watch out for the blanket ban to make life easier for the "Plods"

    If its going to happen and we ain't going to stop it then lets prepare for it and push for alternatives.

    I think the effort needs to be put into finding the reasonable alternative and making sure its available at a reasonable price.

    I will now sit back and wait to be savaged...but i've night duty so mightened get back for a day or so :)

    Every metal is toxic if it gets inside you and most metals occur naturally and are in your water that way as well.

    Problem with wetlands is the birds grind the shot up with their food.


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    #19
    grassroot1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭grassroot1


    After nearly 25 to 30 years of lead ban talk a viable alternative has not been produced that I find amazing.

    One of the proposals brought to the table is to make having lead cartridges in your possession an offence


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    #20
    cavan shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 3,070 ✭✭✭cavan shooter


    grassroot1 wrote: »
    After nearly 25 to 30 years of lead ban talk a viable alternative has not been produced that I find amazing.

    One of the proposals brought to the table is to make having lead cartridges in your possession an offence

    And isn't that the "lets make life easier for plod approach" a bit like ban lamping at night coz scobies are out misbehaving....annoying to say the least.

    There is alternatives, and I have used them and found them quite good on ducks. I have not seen them hear.


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    #21
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    cavan shooter wrote: »
    And isn't that the "lets make life easier for plod approach" a bit like ban lamping at night coz scobies are out misbehaving....annoying to say the least.

    There is alternatives, and I have used them and found them quite good on ducks. I have not seen them hear.

    Bismuth shot, i believe its horrendously expensive (about 50 euro a box of 25 :eek:). They tried a polymer shot years ago, never heard much more about that. Tungsten, the thing about tungsten is its heavy enough for shot, but a hard metal so would destroy your barrels and tends to pass right through game, not killing it cleanly.

    These proposals are a dogs dinner.


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    #22
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,957 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Exactly, a pigs arse of things.
    BTW Target shooters of the humble .22, please do feel free to weigh in here as well as this concerns you lot as well.Your .22 bullets are virtually pure lead and they are looking at banning ALL lead ammo.
    So point is, quit moaning and looking for non-existent alternatives, and get onto your national organisations, who might consider taking a break from fighting each other and get complaining to the Brussels diktat via their EU organisation FACE??[That's if they have finished their own internal power struggles and coups?]
    There are links there for public submissions on this, as seeing the EUSSR has to play square after not bothering with such on the last attempted gun ban.Enough outrage from the shooting and fishing communities will probably make them scuttle back into their Triloge dens to lick their wounds again.So get writing and emailing.This is the real price you pay if you want to stay shooting these days.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #23
    minktrapper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭minktrapper


    The state of California has banned the use of all lead ammunition for over 12 mts now I think. The price of steel shot shells is similar to the price of lead shells.

    Merely a matter of time before it is implemented here and the rest of the EU.


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    #24
    ezra_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭ezra_


    minktrapper wrote: »
    The state of California has banned the use of all lead ammunition for over 12 mts now I think. The price of steel shot shells is similar to the price of lead shells.

    Merely a matter of time before it is implemented here and the rest of the EU.

    So no .22 shooting in Cali?


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    #25
    minktrapper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭minktrapper


    ezra_ wrote: »
    So no .22 shooting in Cali?

    Don't know how they got around that. But the.17 HMR is only 15 gr if I am not mistaken. Do they use tin?


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    #26
    minktrapper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭minktrapper


    minktrapper wrote: »
    Don't know how they got around that. But the.17 HMR is only 15 gr if I am not mistaken. Do they use tin?

    Tungsten copper tin and iron. NTX varmint express from Hornady.


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    #27
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    minktrapper wrote: »
    The state of California has banned the use of all lead ammunition for over 12 mts now I think. The price of steel shot shells is similar to the price of lead shells.

    Merely a matter of time before it is implemented here and the rest of the EU.

    California or as its also known, La-La land, the home of political correctness and being "right-on".

    Apart from wildfowl gathering lead shot in their gizzards on wetlands, what purpose does banning lead bullets on ranges do, or shot on clay grounds ? More pointless rubbish.


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    #28
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    123shooter wrote: »
    One reason why I can't wait for Brexit to happen..........sooner the better..........wish they would get on with it.

    The EU would last just a few weeks afterwards. Say goodbye to the lot of them and their hangers on.
    *actually laughs his ass off at that idea*
    Yeah, a $20 trillion economy is going to fall apart in a few weeks. Happens all the time.

    BTW, the steel shot thing might be a pain in the arse, but given the ****e from the PSC and the eHealth and the PULSE debacles here, I'd trade increased controls on lead for the GDPR. The real problem you face is not sitting in brussels, it's sitting in Leinster House and those lads are so small on the EU stage that apart from areas where the press peek in (like, say, brexit completely undermining the legal foundation of the good friday agreement because nobody in whitehall knows about anything north or west of Watford), that the EU just lay down the law and the oireachtas has to follow. Which is a damn good thing way more often than not.
    gunny123 wrote: »
    Apart from wildfowl gathering lead shot in their gizzards on wetlands, what purpose does banning lead bullets on ranges do, or shot on clay grounds ? More pointless rubbish.
    Keeps higher concentrations out of the water table, which isn't a terrible desire since there is literally no safe dose for lead in humans. But by the time it gets to something workable, odds are it'll effectively just mean you have to have a lining underneath your berm in a range. Which you already need in Ireland anyway.


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    #29
    123shooter
    Registered Users Posts: 964 ✭✭✭123shooter


    Sparks wrote: »
    *actually laughs his ass off at that idea*
    Yeah, a $20 trillion economy is going to fall apart in a few weeks. Happens all the time.

    Well the sh*te hit the fan in 2007 or 2008 and they aint managed to sort that out yet. So falling apart has more than one way of happening. It doesnt mean that there is a pile of bricks on the floor and no building left. What I meant was the EU will not function with the way it has or the plans for the future it had before. Anyway that's political sh*te.........away with it!
    Keeps higher concentrations out of the water table, which isn't a terrible desire since there is literally no safe dose for lead in humans. But by the time it gets to something workable, odds are it'll effectively just mean you have to have a lining underneath your berm in a range. Which you already need in Ireland anyway.

    There's no safe dose of anything in humans ...........except the things they don't want to ban because there is too much money at stake in one way or another.

    We ban lead but tobacco, drink, pesticides/herbicides and other toxic substances are still available.


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    #30
    Mississippi.
    Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭Mississippi.


    minktrapper wrote: »
    Tungsten copper tin and iron. NTX varmint express from Hornady.


    If it is for environmental reasons that lead is being banned then would the copper and tungsten not be just as much a contaminant ?


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    #31
    gunny123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭gunny123


    Done a bit of mooching around the net, the costs of any non-toxic shotgun cartridges is stiff. Well up in the £30-45 a box of 25 range, so a mornings claybusting, assuming you need 4 boxes for 100 birds is going to cost you well over 120 euros at least.


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