Irish Rail Future Outlined and No Dart Underground Mentioned?

ClovenHoof · 04-07-2017 12:30pm #1

Interesting piece into today IndoRag about how the chairman of Irish Rail wants to electrify the Maynooth Line ASAP and put the Northern Line on the long finger. Wants a fleet of diesel-electric hybrid DMUs to operate within and beyond the DART network, as well as electrify the Dublin-Belfast and Dublin-Cork lines.

Naturally none of this will come to pass, but I did find it interesting reading between the lines that there was zero mention of the Dart Underground. So we can probably take it as a given that project is now history. Unless it was mentioned and the IndoRag did not print it?

bk · 04-07-2017 12:57pm

Article here:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rail-plans-move-to-electrichybrid-fleet-35892464.html

Mutant z · 04-07-2017 1:05pm

I wouldnt hold my breath of any of this coming to fruition.

bk · 04-07-2017 1:15pm

Well some of it is definitely happening:

- The tender for the refurbishment of the 2700's is on
- The tender for 41 new ICR carriages is being prepared
- The tender for refurbishment of engines in ongoing.

Of course these are all the relatively easy and obvious improvements. The electrifications are much more pie in the sky stuff. In particular Cork to Belfast.

The funny thing is the article is trying to make out they are going all environmentally friendly and electric. While in reality of the things actually happening they are actually just extending the existing Diesel fleet for another 20 to 30 years and kicking electrification down the track!

end of the road · 04-07-2017 6:44pm

i can't see any electrification of anything happening any time soon.
41 new ICR cars while welcome won't change the fact they are unsuited to suburban services (i presume that is mostly the reason they are being ordered)

goingnowhere · 04-07-2017 7:07pm

2700 units are for Suburban services.

We still have commuter units appearing on Rosslare, Sligo and Tralee services, so more ICR stock is needed

end of the road · 04-07-2017 7:16pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

2700 units are for Suburban services.

We still have commuter units appearing on Rosslare, Sligo and Tralee services

oh believe me, i'm well aware of that. i'm probably one of the most vocal on here in relation to that problem.

goingnowhere wrote: »

so more ICR stock is needed

it is, however my understanding is it's not complete units but intermediat cars that are being ordered. while nice they won't help the situation of suburban units on long distance services.

L1011 · 04-07-2017 7:30pm

Maynooth over Balbriggan for electrification is sensible in that Maynooth would benefit the most from the acceleration properties of electric trains due to more, closer stations and an extremely poor alignment. Northern Line would benefit most from more passing loops / partial quad tracking on the inner sections with electrification bringing limited further benefits.

BowSideChamp · 04-07-2017 7:35pm

My solution:

-Extend the docklands rail line across the Samuel Beckett bridge and up the quays to Tara street.

-Convert the Maynooth commuter line to light rail (Irish broadgauge with branches to the Blanch Centre) allowing onstreet connection to Tara Street over the Samuel Beckett bridge.

- Capcity across the loop line bridge reduced allowing all commuter trains from Huestion to go through Phoenix Park tunnel to the city centre

- thereby no need for Dart Underground that will cost €billions and will never get green lit

- samuel beckett bridge already built for light rail

ClovenHoof · 04-07-2017 7:52pm

BowSideChamp wrote: »

My solution:

-Extend the docklands rail line across the Samuel Beckett bridge and up the quays to Tara street.

-Convert the Maynooth commuter line to light rail (Irish broadgauge with branches to the Blanch Centre) allowing onstreet connection to Tara Street over the Samuel Beckett bridge.

- Capcity across the loop line bridge reduced allowing all commuter trains from Huestion to go through Phoenix Park tunnel to the city centre

- thereby no need for Dart Underground that will cost €billions and will never get green lit

- samuel beckett bridge already built for light rail

Including the fact that your Broad Guage Maynooth Luas would have to change gauge to use the already existing Samuel Beckett Bridge tracks, let me be the first to congratulate you on finding the missing link between a Rollercoaster and Rail Transport.

LXFlyer · 04-07-2017 7:55pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

2700 units are for Suburban services.

We still have commuter units appearing on Rosslare, Sligo and Tralee services, so more ICR stock is needed

The 2700s will in all likelihood go back to Limerick for regional services.

The 2800s will then return to Dublin.

As I understand it the ICR order will be for intermediate cars thereby allowing sets to be reformed which will then release some sets displaced for use elsewhere.

BowSideChamp · 04-07-2017 8:04pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Including the fact that your Broad Guage Maynooth Luas would have to change gauge to use the already existing Samuel Beckett Bridge tracks, let me be the first to congratulate you on finding the missing link between a Rollercoaster and Rail Transport.

It wouldn't change gauge. All irish gauge. There is no track built on the bridge as yet. The connections would be which all avoid Connolly Station:

Maynooth - Tara St
Maynooth - blanch - Tara

Btw there is space reserved for a rail connection from the maynooth line to the blanch centre. It will never get used unless it is light rail. Light rail brings transport to the masses and is the way to go.

thomasj · 04-07-2017 8:09pm

BowSideChamp wrote:

It will never get used unless it is light rail. Light rail brings transport to the masses and is the way to go.

Surely then the phoenix park tunnel is not needed? The red line luas is already there!

BowSideChamp · 04-07-2017 8:13pm

thomasj wrote: »

Surely then the phoenix park tunnel is not needed? The red line luas is already there!

And what light rail currently services Blanchardstown? Probably the largest urban population in Dublin!!

end of the road · 04-07-2017 8:16pm

BowSideChamp wrote: »

My solution:

-Extend the docklands rail line across the Samuel Beckett bridge and up the quays to Tara street.

-Convert the Maynooth commuter line to light rail (Irish broadgauge with branches to the Blanch Centre) allowing onstreet connection to Tara Street over the Samuel Beckett bridge.

- Capcity across the loop line bridge reduced allowing all commuter trains from Huestion to go through Phoenix Park tunnel to the city centre

- thereby no need for Dart Underground that will cost €billions and will never get green lit

- samuel beckett bridge already built for light rail

the maynooth line and the space reserved for tracks across the - samuel beckett bridge are of 2 different gauges (okay, not a huge problem as gauge changing trains do exist i believe)
but then, the question is what are you trying to achieve? facilitate trains through the phoenix park tunnel? well, they are lesser used then the maynooth line, so converting the maynooth line to facilitate them is in my view nonsense. reduce capacity meaning no need for dart underground? well, that's not an option. build a rail line into blanch? i would be in support of that but not at the cost of converting a busy heavy rail line to a light rail line. going into blanch could be part of another luas line if building a heavy rail link can't be done or isn't justified.
dart underground is needed and it's implementation cannot be avoided. reduction of heavy rail capacity within the dublin area is not an option. the maynooth line caries a large amount of passengers, and you have other rail services using the maynooth line, to longford and sligo. to convert the line would also mean closure of some period, which i have no doubt would cause huge problems.
i don't know about anyone else, but for me the perceived benefits of this are so small for the issues it would cause (and potentially the costs) and even at the end of it dart underground will still be needed.

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Light rail brings transport to the masses and is the way to go.

not for the vast majority of your proposal. a light rail service for blanch is a good idea but as part of another luas line serving areas not served.

thomasj · 04-07-2017 8:21pm

BowSideChamp wrote:

And what light rail currently services Blanchardstown? Probably the largest urban population in Dublin!!

It is the largest suburb in Dublin and if there was a rail connection (even light)
Serving the centre it would benefit greater parts of Blanchardstown but let's be realistic, the best chance blanch has is getting the DART service

fingers crossed with a bit of copon the Dublin bus review will give us a frequent local service linking Blanchardstown centre and the local rail stations with a expanded area of Blanchardstown than there is currently.

Yourself isit · 04-07-2017 8:27pm

Now that the luas has churned up as much of the city centre as is needed why cant we continue it out to blanch. From broombridge

BowSideChamp · 04-07-2017 9:18pm

thomasj wrote: »

It is the largest suburb in Dublin and if there was a rail connection (even light)
Serving the centre it would benefit greater parts of Blanchardstown but let's be realistic, the best chance blanch has is getting the DART service

fingers crossed with a bit of copon the Dublin bus review will give us a frequent local service linking Blanchardstown centre and the local rail stations with a expanded area of Blanchardstown than there is currently.

Dart Underground will never get built. It was estimated to cost €3billion for the tunnel alone. Maximising the current infrastructure is the way forward.

Stephen15 · 04-07-2017 9:40pm

BowSideChamp wrote: »

My solution:

-Extend the docklands rail line across the Samuel Beckett bridge and up the quays to Tara street.

-Convert the Maynooth commuter line to light rail (Irish broadgauge with branches to the Blanch Centre) allowing onstreet connection to Tara Street over the Samuel Beckett bridge.

- Capcity across the loop line bridge reduced allowing all commuter trains from Huestion to go through Phoenix Park tunnel to the city centre

- thereby no need for Dart Underground that will cost €billions and will never get green lit

- samuel beckett bridge already built for light rail

Riddiculous idea. An electrified Dart service to Maynooth would make far more sense. No mention of the Sligo line either and the commuter trains going to Longford. Light rail has its place and thats on segregated track or on streets. Dart>Luas

Cannon_fodder · 04-07-2017 9:44pm

BowSideChamp wrote: »

My solution:

-Extend the docklands rail line across the Samuel Beckett bridge and up the quays to Tara street.

-Convert the Maynooth commuter line to light rail (Irish broadgauge with branches to the Blanch Centre) allowing onstreet connection to Tara Street over the Samuel Beckett bridge.

- Capcity across the loop line bridge reduced allowing all commuter trains from Huestion to go through Phoenix Park tunnel to the city centre

- thereby no need for Dart Underground that will cost €billions and will never get green lit

- samuel beckett bridge already built for light rail

Can't happen, non-electric train and too heavy for Beckett bridge. Luas or dart maybe but not a commuter train.

Cannon_fodder · 04-07-2017 9:46pm

Electric dart to Maynooth is sensible but how much disruption to services will be caused>?

Cannon_fodder · 04-07-2017 9:50pm

Yourself isit wrote: »

Now that the luas has churned up as much of the city centre as is needed why cant we continue it out to blanch. From broombridge

Capacity, short runs. Imagine how many people would cram into it where as a train with 4 carriages could take 2 to 3 times more,

Stephen15 · 04-07-2017 10:15pm

Cannon_fodder wrote: »

Electric dart to Maynooth is sensible but how much disruption to services will be caused>?

Considering that how quick the wires went up for the Luas BXD I wouldn't say that long only really short term pain for long term gain. I'm sure bus replacements could be put on during any prolonged period and large pieces of work could be done off peak and during weekends.

A Blanchardstown SC Dart branch would also be good.

I'd suggest services patterns like this.

Greystones - Blanchardstown SC

Bray - Maynooth/M3 Parkway

Pearse - Howth/Malahide

I'd also electrify the Docklands line too

Jamie2k9 · 04-07-2017 10:15pm

Cannon_fodder wrote: »

Electric dart to Maynooth is sensible but how much disruption to services will be caused>?

Not a massive amount, lot of night and some weekends only. Would be worth it.

Jamie2k9 · 04-07-2017 10:46pm

Good to see DU has been scrapped, such a flawed project, the money could be spent far more wisely on the railway.

BowSideChamp · 04-07-2017 11:01pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Riddiculous idea. An electrified Dart service to Maynooth would make far more sense. No mention of the Sligo line either and the commuter trains going to Longford. Light rail has its place and thats on segregated track or on streets. Dart>Luas

The DART will never run on the Maynooth line. As I said, the DART Underground has been estimated to cost €3billion just for the tunnel. Add the train stock you bring the total bill to €4b. It will never get built.

The constraint at the moment, is the Loop Line bridge and Connolly Station. Electrifying the Maynooth Line as a stand alone project will deliver no increased capacity.

Cannon_fodder wrote: »

Can't happen, non-electric train and too heavy for Beckett bridge. Luas or dart maybe but not a commuter train.

I said light-rail. Luas style. Not a commuter train.

Stephen15 · 04-07-2017 11:02pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Good to see DU has been scrapped, such a flawed project, the money could be spent far more wisely on the railway.

I'm not a fan either myself of either DU or MN. I'd prefer a heavy rail metro system like in other cities. Not an underground in sections light rail system or underground suburban trains.

Stephen15 · 04-07-2017 11:10pm

BowSideChamp wrote: »

The DART will never run on the Maynooth line. As I said, the DART Underground has been estimated to cost €3billion just for the tunnel. Add the train stock you bring the total bill to €4b. It will never get built.

The constraint at the moment, is the Loop Line bridge and Connolly Station. Electrifying the Maynooth Line as a stand alone project will deliver no additional capacity

And nor will any light rail project. We could have Connolly-Malahide/Howth services which would prevent any more congestion on the loop line bridge. What would happen to the Longford/Sligo services if the line was converted. It would be impossible to run Luas trams on an Irish gauge anyway.

BowSideChamp · 04-07-2017 11:16pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

And nor will any light rail project. We could have Connolly-Malahide/Howth services which would prevent any more congestion on the loop line bridge. What would happen to the Longford/Sligo services if the line was converted. It would be impossible to run Luas trams on an Irish gauge anyway.

Ugh I am repeating myself again.

Use Irish broad gauge. We used it for decades in the city centre.

The Sligo train is a loss maker. Runs only a few times a day. But besides, will not be affected and still will be able to terminate at Connolly.

end of the road · 04-07-2017 11:25pm

BowSideChamp wrote: »

The DART will never run on the Maynooth line. As I said, the DART Underground has been estimated to cost €3billion just for the tunnel. Add the train stock you bring the total bill to €4b. It will never get built.

The constraint at the moment, is the Loop Line bridge and Connolly Station. Electrifying the Maynooth Line as a stand alone project will deliver no increased capacity.

I said light-rail. Luas style. Not a commuter train.

going on the list of benefits you mentioned in your first post on this thread, the only actual benefit your suggestion would bring is a line into blanch, which can be done anyway without the up-evil and cost of converting a currently existing line which has other services as well as the suburban services, which needs the capacity of heavy rail and which adds badly needed capacity into the dublin area. it can be done via a branch off the currently existing network, or via a new luas route serving new areas not served by rail
the connolly constraint is an issue but it needs solving anyway and it won't be done via your suggestion.

Stephen15 · 04-07-2017 11:29pm

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Ugh I am repeating myself again.

Use Irish broad gauge. We used it for decades in the city centre.

The Sligo train is a loss maker. Runs only a few times a day. But besides, will not be affected and still will be able to terminate at Connolly.

At a time when there was little other traffic on streets.

Its a ridiculous and impractical solution to run light rail alongside heavy rail trains. Hacing two tram systems running on differant gauges is also ridiculous.

Regardless of all that heavy rail is superior as it has more capacity, the rolling stock lasts longer and its faster.

Theres also the Longford commuter and the direct M3 Parkway services aswell as the Sligo train.

Irish Rail Future Outlined and No Dart Underground Mentioned?

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