Irish Rail Future Outlined and No Dart Underground Mentioned?

Losty Dublin

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Ugh I am repeating myself again.

Use Irish broad gauge. We used it for decades in the city centre.

Where in the city centre was it used, railway lines aside?

BowSideChamp wrote: »

The Sligo train is a loss maker. Runs only a few times a day.

If only a few is seven then yes you are right

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/07_dublin_-sligo.pdf

BowSideChamp

end of the road wrote: »

going on the list of benefits you mentioned in your first post on this thread, the only actual benefit your suggestion would bring is a line into blanch, which can be done anyway without the up-evil and cost of converting a currently existing line which has other services as well as the suburban services, which needs the capacity of heavy rail and which adds badly needed capacity into the dublin area. it can be done via a branch off the currently existing network, or via a new luas route serving new areas not served by rail
the connolly constraint is an issue but it needs solving anyway and it won't be done via your suggestion.

A luas style train from Maynooth could run at 2 min intervals just like the Green Line at peak times. (It would really be Metro Grade rather then luas.) The current contraints leave the Maynooth line currently looking like the commuter train into Calcutta.

Similarly if the Maynooth trains is diverted to a new railway up to Tara Street, if frees up slots on the Loop Line for extra Dart services.

Win - Win - Win

BowSideChamp

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Where in the city centre was it used, railway lines aside?
QUOTE]

What do you think all the tram lines in Dublin were??

wordofwarning

BowSideChamp wrote: »

And what light rail currently services Blanchardstown? Probably the largest urban population in Dublin!!

It is getting a BRT out to UCD. It does not need a Luas line. Blanch is nothing but a horrible shopping centre that would not look out of place in a state you have never heard of in the US, a few business parks aka glorified industrial estates and a generic low density housing. A BRT is fine for Blanch.

It makes no sense spending hundreds of million (probably close to €500-600m) to extent the Luas to Blanch when A) it is getting the BRT. it is not particularly dense C) I imagine the Luas will be pretty packed from Broombridge to town without it serving 70k ish in Blanch

I don't see the logic in serving Blanch just because it has a large urban population, when the public transport in Phisboro, Drumcondra, Santry/Ballymun, Swords is horrific. The metro would serve a lot more people

end of the road

BowSideChamp wrote: »

A luas style train from Maynooth could run at 2 min intervals just like the Green Line at peak times. (It would really be Metro Grade rather then luas.)

but it would still be of lower capacity then the currently existing heavy rail system, would be another type of railway with vehicles that can only operate on that line, wouldn't bring people into connolly for further onward travel. a 2 minute frequency with lower capacity vehicles is nice for a turn up and go service but it is really compensating for a lack of actual capacity which is needed anyway, and which would still have to be implemented. so your suggestion wouldn't solve anything.

BowSideChamp wrote: »

The current contraints leave the Maynooth line currently looking like the commuter train into Calcutta.

that's down to lack of extra carriges currently. can easily be solved.

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Similarly if the Maynooth trains is diverted to a new railway up to Tara Street, if frees up slots on the Loop Line for extra Dart services.

where is it going to terminate in tara street. also, the amount of slots it would supposibly free up just delay the inevitable at greater cost and up-evil to an existing, very busy line.

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Win - Win - Win

not win win win i'm afraid. cost and up-evil for no benefit that can't be solved by other means, which need implementing anyway.

Stephen15

BowSideChamp wrote: »

A luas style train from Maynooth could run at 2 min intervals just like the Green Line at peak times. (It would really be Metro Grade rather then luas.) The current contraints leave the Maynooth line currently looking like the commuter train into Calcutta.

Similarly if the Maynooth trains is diverted to a new railway up to Tara Street, if frees up slots on the Loop Line for extra Dart services.

Win - Win - Win

That could solved by having Dart services running Connolly to Howth/Malahide and having Bray/Greystones to Maynooth services.

Metro Grade is heavy rail similar to the Dart not being served by any other intercity, commuter or freight services.

Losty Dublin

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Where in the city centre was it used, railway lines aside?
QUOTE]

What do you think all the tram lines in Dublin were??

They were actually 5 foot 2 3/16 inches and not 5 foot 3".

Gauge aside, the curves and gradients on public streets would be too tight to allow for it, and that's before the unacceptable safety risks of running heavy rail on public streets.

BowSideChamp

wordofwarning wrote: »

It is getting a BRT out to UCD. It does not need a Luas line. Blanch is nothing but a horrible shopping centre that would not look out of place in a state you have never heard of in the US, a few business parks aka glorified industrial estates and a generic low density housing. A BRT is fine for Blanch.

It makes no sense spending hundreds of million (probably close to €500-600m) to extent the Luas to Blanch when A) it is getting the BRT. it is not particularly dense C) I imagine the Luas will be pretty packed from Broombridge to town without it serving 70k ish in Blanch

I don't see the logic in serving Blanch just because it has a large urban population, when the public transport in Phisboro, Drumcondra, Santry/Ballymun, Swords is horrific. The metro would serve a lot more people

Lines of paint on the ground will not make a BRT. The BRT to Blanch is a engineers consultancy report. Nothing more. It will not happen. You cannot fit a segregated bus corridor down the Navan Road.

Buses in Ireland mean each passanger having a chat with the driver before they can board slowing everyones commute. No one will park their car and get on a bus.

BowSideChamp

Losty Dublin wrote: »

They were actually 5 foot 2 3/16 inches and not 5 foot 3".

Gauge aside, the curves and gradients on public streets would be too tight to allow for it, and that's before the unacceptable safety risks of running heavy rail on public streets.

JESUS CHRIST!! How many times do I have to say this.

I am talking about a Light Rail train. Similar to the Luas that will use the existing Irish Guage track. Like the Green Luas Line it can be metro capacity. Irish gauage has been used before on the streets in Dublin and can be used again. Russia uses wider gauges on its trams.

Stephen15

BowSideChamp wrote: »

Lines of paint on the ground will not make a BRT. The BRT to Blanch is a engineers consultancy report. Nothing more. It will not happen. You cannot fit a segregated bus corridor down the Navan Road.

Buses in Ireland mean each passanger having a chat with the driver before they can board slowing everyones commute. No one will park their car and get on a bus.

Its more realistic than your riddiculous suggestion.

No passengers don't have a chat with the driver they have to interact with each other because of the slow boarding and alighting process. If they do its mid journey and anyway the BRT proposal has the driver segregated anyway.

I live on the N11 QBC and I personally find the bus service nearly as good as a Luas or Dart service.

BowSideChamp

Stephen15 wrote: »

Its more realistic than your riddiculous suggestion.

No passengers don't have a chat with the driver they have to interact with each other because of the slow boarding and alighting process. If they do its mid journey and anyway the BRT proposal has the driver segregated anyway.

I live on the N11 QBC and I personally find the bus service nearly as good as a Luas or Dart service.

So each passanger don't have to tell the driver their destination?

Stephen15

BowSideChamp wrote: »

So each passanger don't have to tell the driver their destination?

Yes all ticketing will be off bus. From machines and leap will be tag on/off

end of the road

wordofwarning wrote: »

It is getting a BRT out to UCD. It does not need a Luas line. Blanch is nothing but a horrible shopping centre that would not look out of place in a state you have never heard of in the US, a few business parks aka glorified industrial estates and a generic low density housing. A BRT is fine for Blanch.

It makes no sense spending hundreds of million (probably close to €500-600m) to extent the Luas to Blanch when A) it is getting the BRT. it is not particularly dense C) I imagine the Luas will be pretty packed from Broombridge to town without it serving 70k ish in Blanch

I don't see the logic in serving Blanch just because it has a large urban population, when the public transport in Phisboro, Drumcondra, Santry/Ballymun, Swords is horrific. The metro would serve a lot more people

what's the logic in serving anywhere because it has a large urban population, when other areas have public transport that is horrific? because the reality is it needs good quality transport, and we can insure all of the areas you mention have good quality public transport with political will. it doesn't have to be 1 place at the expence of another. a brt being brought out to blanch isn't a reason for no luas line. in fact, it's possible it may have to be upgraded to a luas line anyway at a later stage, so it may as well be built. if it actually doesn't justify a luas line, and there is no chance of that being the case in the future, then so be it. but i personally don't believe it won't need 1 in the future, so it's best to build it. if anything, it may encourage people to move into the area.
todays current needs aren't tomorrows. we really need to get away from the mindset of only doing things for today's needs, it's about future proofing the country.

BowSideChamp wrote: »

JESUS CHRIST!! How many times do I have to say this.

I am talking about a Light Rail train. Similar to the Luas that will use the existing Irish Guage track. Like the Green Luas Line it can be metro capacity. Irish gauage has been used before on the streets in Dublin and can be used again. Russia uses wider gauges on its trams.

okay. dublin's trams were not 5-3 as losty has just explained to you. we know the type of train you are talking about. however, the reality is that they are of low capacity compared to the existing heavy rail network, will only be able to run on that 1 line, will mean huge up-evil for that line which is very busy because it will need to be closed while the relevant conversion work takes place, means services to sligo can no longer operate because the trams will require lower electrical wiring. and all for, avoiding the building of DU which will have to be built eventually, bringing a line into blanch which can be done as is, and freeing up a few slots at connolly which will be taken i presume by an increased phoenix park tunnel service (who's facilitation is one of the reasons you believe this proposal should be implemented)
all the while money will need to be spent on extra capacity through connolly anyway. your suggestion is a solution looking for a problem, as the problem will need to be solved via other means anyway.

thomasj

wordofwarning wrote:

It is getting a BRT out to UCD. It does not need a Luas line. Blanch is nothing but a horrible shopping centre that would not look out of place in a state you have never heard of in the US, a few business parks aka glorified industrial estates and a generic low density housing. A BRT is fine for Blanch.

wordofwarning wrote:

It makes no sense spending hundreds of million (probably close to €500-600m) to extent the Luas to Blanch when A) it is getting the BRT. it is not particularly dense C) I imagine the Luas will be pretty packed from Broombridge to town without it serving 70k ish in Blanch

Blanch has a population in excess of 100k. Largest suburb in the country.

Randallator

BowSideChamp wrote: »

My solution:


-Convert the Maynooth commuter line to light rail (Irish broadgauge with branches to the Blanch Centre) allowing onstreet connection to Tara Street over the Samuel Beckett bridge.

you do know that there's a reason that standard gauge was used for the luas right?

Yourself isit

Cannon_fodder wrote: »

Capacity, short runs. Imagine how many people would cram into it where as a train with 4 carriages could take 2 to 3 times more,

Well up the frequency then. There is a link to tallaght which is as big.

McAlban

All I'm hearing here is Scrap DU for the sake of a Spur to Blanch Centre. Or Convert the Maynooth Line to Standard Gage to allow Luas to run from Blanch to Tara St.

Neither of these will ever happen. We've discussed on these boards before how the Blanch already has 4 Stations On the Maynooth Line. Are you Suggesting we build a multi million euro spur to service a shopping centre? Why not extend to Ongar, Littlepace and across the N3 also?

Direct BRT or Sprinter Service feeding to the Local Train Stations is the correct option for Blanch.

bk

MOD: Enough talk about converting the Maynooth line to Metro! It is off topic for this thread. If people want to discuss it start a new thread on it specifically. Plenty to talk about from the independent article.

LXFlyer

Yourself isit wrote: »

Well up the frequency then. There is a link to tallaght which is as big.

More trains (and drivers) are needed to deliver that along with the removal of the remaining level crossings.

The return of the 2700 DMUs should mean that the 2800s return to Dublin which will facilitate more trains.

Electrifying the route and implementing a DART service is the only way forward.

Converting to light rail has to be the daftest idea I've read here for some time. The idea of a 2 minute frequency from Maynooth to the city is crazy.

It also takes no account of Sligo line services.

A decent DART service is the only real solution.

LXFlyer

That article is a sales pitch from the CEO for what he needs to keep the existing railway working.

DART Underground is a separate project that is currently under review - I don't see it as having vanished at all.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

That article is a sales pitch from the CEO for what he needs to keep the existing railway working.

DART Underground is a separate project that is currently under review - I don't see it as having vanished at all.

I'm not so sure about that. After all he did mention projects that are well underway (e.g. the 2700's refurbs) so it very suspicious that he didn't mention at all what should be one of the most important projects for IR and one that you would think they would want to give the most publicity to, to push over the line, rather then long term pie in the Sky stuff.

I do wonder if they may have given up on it and are looking at alternatives now!

I also wonder if we will see any more electrification at all?!

If new trains are pushed out to 20 to 30 years from now. EV tech is currently advancing at breakneck speed in cars and buses, so I wonder if by then, we will have full EV trains well developed by then.

All the advantages of electric, without the big capital costs.

Even Hyrbrid-Diesel trains would give you some of the benefits, DART like acceleration - deceleration, without the capital overhead. They could even charge the batteries from the DART overhead wires while running under them, so they would have to use very little Diesel when off the electrified sections of track.

Could help save a lot of infrastructure cost.

marno21

Some amount of absolute garbage on this thread

DART Underground has not been outright cancelled. It's currently having the tunnel element redesigned to cut costs. This would not be happening if it was outright cancelled

It's likely not in IE's immediate plans due to the lack of funding for it at present. If it's built it likely won't be by IE

Stephen15

After reading that article I wonder if IE PR were trying to divert our minds from their horrendous balance sheet, the threat of a insolvency and a possible strike.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that. After all he did mention projects that are well underway (e.g. the 2700's refurbs) so it very suspicious that he didn't mention at all what should be one of the most important projects for IR and one that you would think they would want to give the most publicity to, to push over the line, rather then long term pie in the Sky stuff.

I do wonder if they may have given up on it and are looking at alternatives now!

I also wonder if we will see any more electrification at all?!

If new trains are pushed out to 20 to 30 years from now. EV tech is currently advancing at breakneck speed in cars and buses, so I wonder if by then, we will have full EV trains well developed by then.

All the advantages of electric, without the big capital costs.

Even Hyrbrid-Diesel trains would give you some of the benefits, DART like acceleration - deceleration, without the capital overhead. They could even charge the batteries from the DART overhead wires while running under them, so they would have to use very little Diesel when off the electrified sections of track.

Could help save a lot of infrastructure cost.

DART Underground most certainly has not gone away.

It's currently under review with regard to costs by the NTA and it is dependent upon specific government funding becoming available. Whether he mentions it or not isn't going to change that.

The article was really focussing on day to day operations and what needs to be done to maintain them. Basically issues that he can get movement on.

Incidentally, the 2700 refurb has not started yet - it is about to go to tender.

Stephen15

I also wonder how long do the Dart 81k class have I know they were given a refurb about ten years ago but surely they'll have to start replacing them in the not so distant future.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

I also wonder how long do the Dart 81k class have I know they were given a refurb about ten years ago but surely they'll have to start replacing them in the not so distant future.

They're very well built trains and have brothers and sisters still going in Germany and in other countries and they had an excellent refurbishment as well so I don't see them going anywhere in the short-medium term future.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

DART Underground most certainly has not gone away.

It's currently under review with regard to costs by the NTA and it is dependent upon specific government funding becoming available. Whether he mentions it or not isn't going to change that.

The reality seems to be that the government and NTA have little interest in DU. They seem to be focused on MN. I'm not saying it is going away, but I'll be shocked if actual construction of DU actually begins in the next 20 years.

Realistically they will be focused on getting MN done over the next 10 years and after it is complete they might start seriously thinking about DU.

Hardly surprising when you consider then financial, union and pension issues at IR. They won't want to pour 3bn into DU until those issues are first well sorted.

It feels like IR have come to terms with not getting DU in the short term and are now looking at smaller projects that might help improve things in the short term.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I also wonder how long do the Dart 81k class have I know they were given a refurb about ten years ago but surely they'll have to start replacing them in the not so distant future.

Don't electric Metro carriages last much longer then diesel train carriages? I remember reading that carriages operating in New York subway are well over 60 years. They just need refurbs and good to go for another 20.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

The reality seems to be that the government and NTA have little interest in DU. They seem to be focused on MN. I'm not saying it is going away, but I'll be shocked if actual construction of DU actually begins in the next 20 years.

Realistically they will be focused on getting MN done over the next 10 years and after it is complete they might start seriously thinking about DU.

Hardly surprising when you consider then financial, union and pension issues at IR. They won't want to pour 3bn into DU until those issues are first well sorted.

It feels like IR have come to terms with not getting DU in the short term and are now looking at smaller projects that might help improve things in the short term.

Don't electric Metro carriages last much longer then diesel train carriages? I remember reading that carriages operating in New York subway are well over 60 years. They just need refurbs and good to go for another 20.

DU is completely out of IE of CIE hands its the NTA and DoT that will be funding it and making the decisions about it.

MN in the next ten years I find that hard to believe it will probably take nearly that long to construct.

Yes electric do last longer than diesel but I wouldn't say they'd last over 60 years espeically in a country prone to rust.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

DU is completely out of IE of CIE hands its the NTA and DoT that will be funding it and making the decisions about it.

Sure, but you would think IR CEO would be wanting to push it in the media to continue to put pressure on the NTA and government to deliver it.

Stephen15 wrote: »

MN in the next ten years I find that hard to believe it will probably take nearly that long to construct.

Exactly, which is why it is very unlikely we will see DU for at least 20.

Stephen15

bk wrote: »

Sure, but you would think IR CEO would be wanting to push it in the media to continue to put pressure on the NTA and government to deliver it.

I don't know how pushed IE are about DU especially considering it may not even be them operating it.