The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK · 22-04-2017 2:43pm #1

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

__________________

Stars and Stripes · 22-04-2017 2:46pm

RobertKK wrote: »

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Referendum on the way, get out the popcorn

RobertKK · 22-04-2017 2:49pm

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Referendum on the way, get out the popcorn

But all the repeal gear, Unal Mullally's repeal the 8th book, the t-shirts, etc will have to be replaced or amended too...

me_right_one · 22-04-2017 2:50pm

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Referendum on the way, get out the popcorn

U sure? I thought there would only be a referendum if the repeal option won? Which it obviously didnt.

Yourself isit · 22-04-2017 2:51pm

Both require a referendum so what's the difference?

sjb25 · 22-04-2017 2:52pm

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Referendum on the way, get out the popcorn

.

idnkph · 22-04-2017 2:52pm

There was me thinking the Dail was our citizens assembly. After all we did vote for them.
More great politics from our elected leaders. Put this decision on someone else to vote for it. Then they can't accept any of the blame for outcomes.

conorhal · 22-04-2017 2:53pm

If all they get is an amendment regards fatal fetal abnormality, which I could accept, it would demolish the pro-abortion repeal crowds favorite stalking horse, I'd be delighted if they had to make their argument without pushing hard cases that make bad law and attempting to strawman abortion in through the back door.

ciaradx · 22-04-2017 2:54pm

Two people preferred to not state their opinion, so what's the point of them being part of the assembly? Like people who vote "I don't know" on opinion polls.

hungry hypno toad · 22-04-2017 2:55pm

RobertKK wrote: »

But all the repeal gear, Unal Mullally's repeal the 8th book, the t-shirts, etc will have to be replaced or amended too...

Ha ha, I see what you did there. Well done.

22-04-2017 2:55pm

Stars and Stripes wrote: »

Referendum on the way, get out the popcorn

popcorn?! get out the suitcase you mean. I feel like this campaign has been rehashed my whole life (wait...it has been rehashed my whole life).

I feel like tuning out of the Irish media for the next 12 months or so. Better subscribe to Netflix now I guess.

B_Wayne · 22-04-2017 2:57pm

RobertKK wrote: »

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Option 1 in the next ballot would effectively have the exact same effect as repeal.

Ken. · 22-04-2017 2:58pm

I believe that any vote to repeal it will be defeated. It's like the first time Obama was going for President. When people were polled they said they'd vote for him cause they didn't want to appear racist. If the polls were true he should have won by another 15-18 points.

Same with abortion here. If your against it you keep your mouth shut cause you just get shouted down.

For the record if it comes to a vote I'll vote to repeal it cause I think women should have a right to choose what they do with their own bodies.

GarIT · 22-04-2017 3:02pm

RobertKK wrote: »

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

I completely support repeal but how is this a legitimate vote when the option "Keep it as it is" wasn't allowed?

It's a bit unbelievable that claims are coming out that 94% of people want the 8th removed or changed when the only options allowed were to vote for repeal or change.

judeboy101 · 22-04-2017 3:02pm

Barbie! wrote: »

I believe that any vote to repeal it will be defeated. It's like the first time Obama was going for President. When people were polled they said they'd vote for him cause they didn't want to appear racist. If the polls were true he should have won by another 15-18 points.

Same with abortion here. If your against it you keep your mouth shut cause you just get shouted down.

For the record if it comes to a vote I'll vote to repeal it cause I think women should have a right to choose what they do with their own bodies.

Including FGM, prostitution and womb renting?

me_right_one · 22-04-2017 3:02pm

Yourself isit wrote: »

Both require a referendum so what's the difference?

If there is a referendum, "repeal" wont be an option. So at least thats "abortion-on-demand" off the cards.

22-04-2017 3:03pm

Barbie! wrote: »

I believe that any vote to repeal it will be defeated. It's like the first time Obama was going for President. When people were polled they said they'd vote for him cause they didn't want to appear racist. If the polls were true he should have won by another 15-18 points.

Same with abortion here. If your against it you keep your mouth shut cause you just get shouted down.

For the record if it comes to a vote I'll vote to repeal it cause I think women should have a right to choose what they do with their own bodies.

you're definitely correct about shy 'pro life' voters, but FWIW I think every poll of a straight repeal shows that it has very little support. Most voters seem to want an amendment that takes account of fatal foetal abnormalities, incest and rape.

I'd vote straight repeal but I think most of my fellow travellers have their heads in the sand regarding the lack of popular support for that proposition.

GarIT · 22-04-2017 3:05pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Including FGM, prostitution and womb renting?

I'm not the poster but in my case yes if that's what they want and are of a sound mind.

Ayuntamiento · 22-04-2017 3:06pm

GarIT wrote: »

I completely support repeal but how is this a legitimate vote when the option "Keep it as it is" wasn't allowed?

It's a bit unbelievable that claims are coming out that 94% of people want the 8th removed or changed when the only options allowed were to vote for repeal or change.

There was an earlier vote where they asked whether the 8th amendment should remain as it is or not. I think only 13% voted for the 8th amendment to remain so they moved on to the 2nd vote as to whether to repeal or replace/amend it.

GarIT · 22-04-2017 3:08pm

Ayuntamiento wrote: »

There was an earlier vote where they asked whether the 8th amendment should remain as it is or not. I think only 13% voted for the 8th amendment to remain so they moved on to the 2nd vote as to whether to repeal or replace/amend it.

Thanks, that makes much more sense. Although if you submitted this question on your thesis at any reputable university your thesis would be rejected. For any acceptable scientific statistics all options must be available on a poll, you can't split it.

PhoneMain · 22-04-2017 3:10pm

Barbie! wrote: »

I

Same with abortion here. If your against it you keep your mouth shut cause you just get shouted down.

Abortion is such a complex issue. I feel that the majority of citizens in this country would be in favour of changing the law as it stands (e.g. legislating for fatal fetal abnormalities or rape etc). However, the repeal movement seem to want abortion on demand. And I've felt that if you're not of the same opinion, you're painted as a religious bigot or a hater of women or a sexist neanderthal.

(And before anyone paints me as anything, I haven't a clue where I stand on this mindblowing, complex, divisive issue!!)

pjohnson · 22-04-2017 3:11pm

conorhal wrote: »

If all they get is an amendment regards fatal fetal abnormality, which I could accept, it would demolish the pro-abortion repeal crowds favorite stalking horse, I'd be delighted if they had to make their argument without pushing hard cases that make bad law and attempting to strawman abortion in through the back door.

Who is pro-abortion?

me_right_one · 22-04-2017 3:12pm

pjohnson wrote: »

Who is pro-abortion?

U living under a rock lately?

pjohnson · 22-04-2017 3:13pm

me_right_one wrote: »

U living under a rock lately?

Last I heard it was pro-choice. When did it morph to pro-abortion?

conorhal · 22-04-2017 3:15pm

pjohnson wrote: »

Who is pro-abortion?

Mostly those intent on playing semantic word games in an effort to misrepresent peoples argument. You know perfectly well that by 'pro-abortion' I mean those that advocate for abortion on demand and without limits.

me_right_one · 22-04-2017 3:16pm

pjohnson wrote: »

Last I heard it was pro-choice. When did it morph to pro-abortion?

The choice to, you know, abort your child

infogiver · 22-04-2017 3:16pm

GarIT wrote: »

I'm not the poster but in my case yes if that's what they want and are of a sound mind.

If you are of sound mind and you want FGM for your minor daughter then you should be allowed?

GarIT · 22-04-2017 3:17pm

infogiver wrote: »

If you are of sound mind and you want FGM for your minor daughter then you should be allowed?

No, definitely not.

One eyed Jack · 22-04-2017 3:17pm

pjohnson wrote: »

Last I heard it was pro-choice. When did it morph to pro-abortion?

About the same time as pro-life morphed into anti-choice.

conorhal · 22-04-2017 3:17pm

pjohnson wrote: »

Last I heard it was pro-choice. When did it morph to pro-abortion?

Chocolate or vanilla? Is a choice. :rolleyes: euphemisms that obscure intent are also a choice, typically a choice to frame an argument promoting something grotesque as benign or bog it down in semantics.

oppenheimer1 · 22-04-2017 3:19pm

GarIT wrote: »

I completely support repeal but how is this a legitimate vote when the option "Keep it as it is" wasn't allowed?

It's a bit unbelievable that claims are coming out that 94% of people want the 8th removed or changed when the only options allowed were to vote for repeal or change.

Keep it as it stands or change it to something else were the options on the first ballot (change won by a huge majority). We are looking at the second ballot, where repeal or a new amendment were tabled.

RobertKK · 22-04-2017 3:25pm

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Keep it as it stands or change it to something else were the options on the first ballot (change won by a huge majority). We are looking at the second ballot, where repeal or a new amendment were tabled.

They are on the 3rd ballot, result due in the next 10 minutes.

infogiver · 22-04-2017 3:29pm

pjohnson wrote: »

Last I heard it was pro-choice. When did it morph to pro-abortion?

Pro choice is the PC term for being pro abortion.
Pro abortion "lites" don't like the word abortion because it conjures up mental pictures of dead babies ( dead babies are the result of abortions, biologically, mind you), so they refer to "termination of pregnancy", and reframe the expression "pro abortion " as "pro choice" to put a bit of a better spin on it.
The heavy hitting pro abortionists are less squeamish and some of the chief celebrity defenders of abortion (Sarah Silverman, that girl from the series "Girls" I can't think of her name, recently took a selfie of herself having a bowel movement while sitting on the toilet eating cake and posted it on social media) have recently pushed the boundaries even more by expressing a wish to actually become pregnant just so they could have an abortion.
How anyone thought that any of this plus the pussy hats and the rosaries/ovaries chants would help to get the 8th amendment repealed is beyond me.
Some of us are very in PC so we just say it as we see it. Pro abortion.

Edited to add: the woman on the toilet eating cake is Lena Dunham.

Ken. · 22-04-2017 3:34pm

judeboy101 wrote: »

Including FGM, prostitution and womb renting?

Any adult over the age of majority should have the right to do as they please with their bodies as long as its legal.

infogiver · 22-04-2017 3:35pm

GarIT wrote: »

No, definitely not.

Well I don't understand then how if your going to give a woman the choice to get rid of her unborn daughter because she's just a dependent "parasite" if you will, why you wouldn't then give her opportunity a few weeks later to have the same dependent "parasite" subject to FGM?
Surely it should be the mothers choice?

infogiver · 22-04-2017 3:36pm

Barbie! wrote: »

Any adult over the age of majority should have the right to do as they please with their bodies as long as its legal.

What about the body within their body?

AtomicHorror · 22-04-2017 3:38pm

infogiver wrote: »

Pro choice is the PC term for being pro abortion.
Pro abortion "lites" don't like the word abortion because it conjures up mental pictures of dead babies ( dead babies are the result of abortions, biologically, mind you), so they refer to "termination of pregnancy", and reframe the expression "pro abortion " as "pro choice" to put a bit of a better spin on it.

**** that's a big-ass straw man.

"Pro-abortion" implies that choice is somehow innately better, when obviously that's not the case. "Pro-choice" more accurately states what the repeal movement want- to allow choice, one way or the other.

Ken. · 22-04-2017 3:38pm

infogiver wrote: »

What about the body within their body?

Most of the time it's there by the woman's choice so if she doesn't want it there for whatever reason she shouldn't be made to keep it there.

me_right_one · 22-04-2017 3:38pm

Barbie! wrote: »

Any adult over the age of majority should have the right to do as they please with their bodies as long as its legal.

Even if that means killing someone else's body?

me_right_one · 22-04-2017 3:40pm

Barbie! wrote: »

Most of the time it's there by the woman's choice so if she doesn't want it there for whatever reason she shouldn't be made to keep it there.

Yea, but she doesnt have to kill it! Thats the point! Why are the only two options ever put forward either: A) full term pregnancy, or

pull the live baby apart limb from limb while its screaming in pain?

You do know we have the technology to implant the baby into another mother or even a test tube, right?

Ken. · 22-04-2017 3:43pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Even if that means killing someone else's body?

Woman's body-Woman's choice. The fetus is not a person till its born. Up to about 25 weeks it wouldn't survive without the mother so it is part of her and if she doesn't want that part of her anymore thats her choice.

AtomicHorror · 22-04-2017 3:43pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Yea, but she doesnt have to kill it! Thats the point! Why are the only two options ever put forward either: A) full term pregnancy, or pull the live baby apart limb from limb while its screaming in pain?

You do know we have the technology to implant the baby into another mother or even a test tube, right?

No we don't. What are you talking about?

infogiver · 22-04-2017 3:45pm

AtomicHorror wrote: »

**** that's a big-ass straw man.

"Pro-abortion" implies that choice is somehow innately better, when obviously that's not the case. "Pro-choice" more accurately states what the repeal movement want- to allow choice, one way or the other.

Ok. Are the Repeal movement pro abortion or ant abortion?

Ray Burkes Pension · 22-04-2017 3:45pm

So in the 1st ballot it was
Retain in full - 12
Replace or amended - 79
Totals votes 91

2nd ballot
Repeal - 39
Amend - 50
Abstain - 2
Total 91

Why are the 12 that vote to retain allowed to vote again what type of change it is.

If the vote was 1 motion instead of 2.
It would be
Keep it - 12
Amend - 38
Repeal - 39
Abstain - 2

me_right_one · 22-04-2017 3:47pm

Barbie! wrote: »

Woman's body-Woman's choice. The fetus is not a person till its born. Up to about 25 weeks it wouldn't survive without the mother so it is part of her and if she doesn't want that part of her anymore thats her choice.

Oh. My. God.

AtomicHorror wrote: »

No we don't. What are you talking about?

Yes we do! Since the seventies! They even do it with endangered animals FFS!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Brown

AtomicHorror · 22-04-2017 3:47pm

infogiver wrote: »

Ok. Are the Repeal movement pro abortion or ant abortion?

Neither. Mother chooses at the time.

GarIT · 22-04-2017 3:48pm

infogiver wrote: »

Well I don't understand then how if your going to give a woman the choice to get rid of her unborn daughter because she's just a dependent "parasite" if you will, why you wouldn't then give her opportunity a few weeks later to have the same dependent "parasite" subject to FGM?
Surely it should be the mothers choice?

In something is in me and is a part of me I have control over it. When something detaches itself from me and is not inside me it has the right to autonomy IMO.

Also, I support abortion before life (the ability to have independent thoughts) begins but not after.

AtomicHorror · 22-04-2017 3:48pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Oh. My. God.

Yes we do! Since the seventies! They even do it with endangered animals FFS!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Brown

IVF.

How does IVF help a woman with an unwanted pregnancy?

GarIT · 22-04-2017 3:49pm

Ray Burkes Pension wrote: »

So in the 1st ballot it was
Retain in full - 12
Replace or amended - 79
Totals votes 91

2nd ballot
Repeal - 39
Amend - 50
Abstain - 2
Total 91

Why are the 12 that vote to retain allowed to vote again what type of change it is.

If the vote was 1 motion instead of 2.
It would be
Keep it - 12
Amend - 38
Repeal - 39
Abstain - 2

Just because you don't support change doesn't mean you should lose your say on how change happens.

hairyslug · 22-04-2017 3:49pm

Well i can see AH is gonna be a real trip for the next 18 months

Ken. · 22-04-2017 3:50pm

me_right_one wrote: »

Oh. My. God.

Yes we do! Since the seventies! They even do it with endangered animals FFS!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louise_Brown

You are suggesting that if a woman got pregnant and didn't want it that it could be removed from here and put in another woman. That's impossible as far as I know.

On the first one, I have my opinion and you have yours. We are not going to agree ever I think.

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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