Beef General Thread

Willfarman · 25-07-2014 10:23am

Charliebull wrote: »

What colour and what price in the end

Black whiteheads. Narrow ones. 275 kgs avg at around 500 in money. March. 2013 born.

nashmach · 25-07-2014 10:28am

Willfarman wrote: »

Black whiteheads. Narrow ones. 275 kgs avg at around 500 in money. March. 2013 born.

Stupid number of moves on them so.

Be a few quid in them otherwise but must have been "raw" enough as well.

Charliebull · 25-07-2014 10:32am

Willfarman wrote: »

Black whiteheads. Narrow ones. 275 kgs avg at around 500 in money. March. 2013 born.

sh!te, now that would depress ya

if they were red white heads they would have been worth a punt to feed and to sell on as breeding heifers,

Farmer Pudsey · 25-07-2014 11:08am

Willfarman wrote: »

Black whiteheads. Narrow ones. 275 kgs avg at around 500 in money. March. 2013 born.

It is one thing that I see in general. Times must be tough that he could not sell privately. i sure the owner tried. Lots of dealers and movements add nothing to value of cattle. Loads of dealers would be better off sorting out inside the gate (stocking levels grass growth and quality). See loads of themreally ruin this type of animal (AA and HE) as they over store, stunt them and even if no of moves is right it is hard to finish before 30 months without lots of ration.

trixi2011 · 25-07-2014 11:12am

Charliebull wrote: »

sh!te, now that would depress ya

if they were red white heads they would have been worth a punt to feed and to sell on as breeding heifers,

Just on that point would you prefer red white head calve from the dairy herd to black white heads. Could never get rid of red ones from the dairy herd in nz, but they would take the hand off you to get the black white heads. They would always think they were out of jerseys if they were red.

Charliebull · 25-07-2014 11:33am

trixi2011 wrote: »

Just on that point would you prefer red white head calve from the dairy herd to black white heads. Could never get rid of red ones from the dairy herd in nz, but they would take the hand off you to get the black white heads. They would always think they were out of jerseys if they were red.

I personally prefer the red white head calve but thats more to do with the terminal sire they will cross too

_Brian · 25-07-2014 11:53am

We've a wee group of bullocks, ~16-17 months any continentals (CH, LMx) are about 450-470kg and FR and AAx in the 375-420 region (i think).
What sort of value would these lads be making, I've heard mart prices have lifted but with work I haven't been there myself.. Average styled animals if ya know what I mean..

Plan is to offload them in the backend - Mid-late Oct most likely..
Some lads have said I should be giving them meal - but grass growth is good, I was thinking maybe meal from Sept as grass slows..

TUBBY · 25-07-2014 8:46pm

Lads.

was at farm walk tonight. Board bia lad there.

asked him 2 questions. Not exactly word for word but gist of it is...

1 how come the farm is audited for qa but then, from that farm only certain cattle are paid on. Is qa not herd number based rather than a particular animal. Put another way, are cattle not paid bonus still classified as qa cattle cause they come from that farmers herd number.

2 what is bb reaction to factories using the qa thing to lower base quotes when cattle plentiful. Surely this was not the original intention of qa setup.

answer 1. there are specs to meet too and the factories don't make them up.

answer 2. Right the next group are coming so ye can move on to the next station.

aneala · 25-07-2014 11:28pm

It is the same with pour on flukcides and may be a reason for poor performance of closamectin which many farmers are not happy about.[/QUOTE

Used Closmectin on a PB bull one autumn and the following spring when we were washing and clipping him for a show and sale came across the pour on still in his coat!!! Maybe it was just the carrier solution but still made me think hard of using/paying for it again.

TUBBY · 26-07-2014 1:13pm

Anyway. Last night teagasc open night was on a suckler farm in edenderry. The farmer had a great setup, great cows and all export calves.
his output per ha was 992 euro and gross margin was 450 euro per hectare.
only thing was nearly all his farm is leased land so at 150 per acre, this is 375 off gross margin straight away.

teagasc suggested he up his stocking rate from 1.6 to 2lu/ha to increase kg output per ha but this takes money and also will increase variable costs.

hard to know. There definitely wasn't any golden ticket on show.

my take home message was if this lad was just about covering his rent with his impressive setup and very tight calving intervals for all cows (less than 365), it is a very hard job make money suckling.

rangler1 · 26-07-2014 1:27pm

TUBBY wrote: »

Anyway. Last night teagasc open night was on a suckler farm in edenderry. The farmer had a great setup, great cows and all export calves.
his output per ha was 992 euro and gross margin was 450 euro per hectare.
only thing was nearly all his farm is leased land so at 150 per acre, this is 375 off gross margin straight away.

teagasc suggested he up his stocking rate from 1.6 to 2lu/ha to increase kg output per ha but this takes money and also will increase variable costs.

hard to know. There definitely wasn't any golden ticket on show.

my take home message was if this lad was just about covering his rent with his impressive setup and very tight calving intervals for all cows (less than 365), it is a very hard job make money suckling.

His fixed costs would have to come out of his SFP at that rate

Willfarman · 27-07-2014 12:32pm

If only he owned the land he'd be doing well.

I said · 28-07-2014 12:32pm

Willfarman wrote: »

If only he owned the land he'd be doing well.

Aye the fellas he is leasing the land off is doing well out of sucklers

sandydan · 28-07-2014 5:42pm

aneala wrote: »

It is the same with pour on flukcides and may be a reason for poor performance of closamectin which many farmers are not happy about.[/QUOTE

Used Closmectin on a PB bull one autumn and the following spring when we were washing and clipping him for a show and sale came across the pour on still in his coat!!! Maybe it was just the carrier solution but still made me think hard of using/paying for it again.

using with 3 years now never had pos for fluke, no coughs either,id say its the marker dye on coat

Willfarman · 28-07-2014 8:42pm

Closamctin pour on is a revelation!

I said · 29-07-2014 9:29am

Willfarman wrote: »

Closamctin pour on is a revelation!

Used it but after all the stories on this thread about pour ons ill use the injectables for a few years at least

sandydan · 29-07-2014 10:00am

TUBBY wrote: »

Lads.

was at farm walk tonight. Board bia lad there.

asked him 2 questions. Not exactly word for word but gist of it is...

1 how come the farm is audited for qa but then, from that farm only certain cattle are paid on. Is qa not herd number based rather than a particular animal. Put another way, are cattle not paid bonus still classified as qa cattle cause they come from that farmers herd number.

2 what is bb reaction to factories using the qa thing to lower base quotes when cattle plentiful. Surely this was not the original intention of qa setup.

answer 1. there are specs to meet too and the factories don't make them up.

answer 2. Right the next group are coming so ye can move on to the next station.

i think that surmises the attitude towards beef production and Bord Bia involvement, its a well job for us and department of agriculture officials and money maker for factories and supermarket who know what's best for 'their' profits, just folllow our instructions it's not meant to be profitable enterprise for farmers

larrymiller · 29-07-2014 1:45pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It is one thing that I see in general. Times must be tough that he could not sell privately. i sure the owner tried. Lots of dealers and movements add nothing to value of cattle. Loads of dealers would be better off sorting out inside the gate (stocking levels grass growth and quality). See loads of themreally ruin this type of animal (AA and HE) as they over store, stunt them and even if no of moves is right it is hard to finish before 30 months without lots of ration.

Well pudsey any stir with agents this week, indo says kill gone under 28000 but also said mart trade was back a bit

Farmer Pudsey · 29-07-2014 10:47pm

Much the same factory's concentrating on killing cows and bulls, seem to be trying to hold back under 30 month cattle to create a glut. Lad told me of 1-2 agents spouting about a price pull week after next, may be a case of factory trying to regain control. Local factory's holding at 3.70 locally but paying way more according to FJ. However there seem to be more movement. Heard of a lad that moved plain AA heifers O-/O=/O+ at 4/kg..

It a case of which can hold the longest us or the factory's if kill slows this week it will be interesting to see how far they will chase cattle next week. I think next week is critical if farmers hold cattle next week and into following week chills will be empty.

Reggie. · 29-07-2014 10:49pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Much the same factory's concentrating on killing cows and bulls, seem to be trying to hold back under 30 month cattle to create a glut. Lad told me of 1-2 agents spouting about a price pull week after next, may be a case of factory trying to regain control. Local factory's holding at 3.70 locally but paying way more according to FJ. However there seem to be more movement. Heard of a lad that moved plain AA heifers O-/O=/O+ at 4/kg..

It a case of which can hold the longest us or the factory's if kill slows this week it will be interesting to see how far they will chase cattle next week. I think next week is critical if farmers hold cattle next week and into following week chills will be empty.

But would farmers do it even if they knew all about it

Farmer Pudsey · 29-07-2014 10:55pm

Reggie. wrote: »

But would farmers do it even if they knew all about it

That is the big issue.

Are you going Contract rearing Dairy heifers the dairy boys reckon that they are doing us a favour and we will be swimming in money after they kindly grant us that favour

Reggie. · 29-07-2014 10:59pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

That is the big issue.

Are you going Contract rearing Dairy heifers the dairy boys reckon that they are doing us a favour and we will be swimming in money after they kindly grant us that favour

Wait and see what happens if the price of milk drops after the quotas go. Then the fun will start

mf240 · 29-07-2014 11:18pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

That is the big issue.

Are you going Contract rearing Dairy heifers the dairy boys reckon that they are doing us a favour and we will be swimming in money after they kindly grant us that favour

Those same lads will be giving away bull calves and cull cows which might be a better paying number. They wont make u up rearing heifers for them anyway.

Reggie. · 29-07-2014 11:21pm

mf240 wrote: »

Those same lads will be giving away bull calves and cull cows which might be a better paying number. They wont make u up rearing heifers for them anyway.

Well if you get them for nothing your on a good foundation

Farmer Pudsey · 29-07-2014 11:25pm

mf240 wrote: »

Those same lads will be giving away bull calves and cull cows which might be a better paying number. They wont make u up rearing heifers for them anyway.

I be hoping they would continue to rear the Friesian calves to 18-20 months.

simx · 29-07-2014 11:27pm

mf240 wrote: »

Those same lads will be giving away bull calves and cull cows which might be a better paying number. They wont make u up rearing heifers for them anyway.

i fatten a few cull cows, got talking to another lad that does all culls, maybe 250 of them, we were just saying that when all these milking cows are in full swing in another few years wont there be some amount of cull cows on offer, and wont they help keep the price of beef down here and there too, in kk at the peak there could be 150-180 cows on sale, what will that figure be in 5 years?

mf240 · 29-07-2014 11:29pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I be hoping they would continue to rear the Friesian calves to 18-20 months.

Ya its grand picking up a few at that age when you can pick them up cheap.

In late 2011 early 2012 calves and beef were dear and a few lads kept calves as they were afraid someone else would make money out of them. Those same calves were bought fair cheap a year later as yearlings.

simx · 29-07-2014 11:30pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I be hoping they would continue to rear the Friesian calves to 18-20 months.

someone will rear them for ya pudsey, youll hardly be mixing the milk replacer will ya?:D

Farmer Pudsey · 29-07-2014 11:34pm

simx wrote: »

someone will rear them for ya pudsey, youll hardly be mixing the milk replacer will ya?:D

No I do not think so now if I got HE for nothing it would be a different matter I might consider going back to it.

simx · 29-07-2014 11:43pm

mf240 wrote: »

Ya its grand picking up a few at that age when you can pick them up cheap.

In late 2011 early 2012 calves and beef were dear and a few lads kept calves as they were afraid someone else would make money out of them. Those same calves were bought fair cheap a year later as yearlings.

i was quar sorry i didnt offload every bad and middling animal in the place those few months and waited till things to calm off back to reality to buy back, if such events occur again i wont hesitate:D

Charliebull · 30-07-2014 11:02am

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

That is the big issue.

Are you going Contract rearing Dairy heifers the dairy boys reckon that they are doing us a favour and we will be swimming in money after they kindly grant us that favour

yes Pudsey , i was following you with great interest on the contract rearing thread;)

regarding closamectin , i have always used it and found it good.

I said · 31-07-2014 1:21pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

That is the big issue.

Are you going Contract rearing Dairy heifers the dairy boys reckon that they are doing us a favour and we will be swimming in money after they kindly grant us that favour

Black and white everywhere!!!

Farmer Pudsey · 31-07-2014 1:31pm

I said wrote: »

Black and white everywhere!!!

Ya mostly

Base price · 31-07-2014 2:25pm

Came across this http://www.agriland.ie/news/dissent-ifa-ranks-grassroot-farmers-plan-beef-crisis-meeting/
I really hope that something comes of this. I have said it many times here and others have too, that the IFA executive have lost touch with their grass roots members. Seems to be a bit of a shake up within the IFA between this and what is going on with the hill sheep farmers.

Charliebull · 31-07-2014 2:30pm

it would be nice to think that something would come out of it, but i dont know if the stranglehold can be broken,

I said · 31-07-2014 2:39pm

Charliebull wrote: »

it would be nice to think that something would come out of it, but i dont know if the stranglehold can be broken,

Another few meetings will come out of it

rangler1 · 31-07-2014 2:52pm

Base price wrote: »

Came across this http://www.agriland.ie/news/dissent-ifa-ranks-grassroot-farmers-plan-beef-crisis-meeting/
I really hope that something comes of this. I have said it many times here and others have too, that the IFA executive have lost touch with their grass roots members. Seems to be a bit of a shake up within the IFA between this and what is going on with the hill sheep farmers.

And I've said many time before that farmers will have to develop some backbone, the power lies with the farmers on the ground not with the organisers who ever they will be.
ICSA reformed for the same reason and failed for the want of support and now we have another organisation starting.....great fun.
Glut is over now, so things will probably get back to normal (whatever that is) without any more intervention

frazzledhome · 01-08-2014 9:21pm

I hope ye don't mind me dropping in!

Interesting piece in IFJ on Irish Grassland Beef Tour

Grow 7 tonne- 37 cows and calves with 30 forward stores

Grow 10 - 52 cows and calves with 30 stores

Grow 12 - 63 cows and calves with 30 stores

Key message the difference between 7&12 is worth €13000 to the farm

Good quote "Grow grass in three weeks and graze in 3" wise advice

mayota · 01-08-2014 9:47pm

frazzledhome wrote: »

I hope ye don't mind me dropping in!

Interesting piece in IFJ on Irish Grassland Beef Tour

Grow 7 tonne- 37 cows and calves with 30 forward stores

Grow 10 - 52 cows and calves with 30 stores

Grow 12 - 63 cows and calves with 30 stores

Key message the difference between 7&12 is worth €13000 to the farm

Good quote "Grow grass in three weeks and graze in 3" wise advice

.

We don't mind. Aren't we always over at ye learning about grass management.

rangler1 · 02-08-2014 7:32am

frazzledhome wrote: »

I hope ye don't mind me dropping in!

Interesting piece in IFJ on Irish Grassland Beef Tour

Grow 7 tonne- 37 cows and calves with 30 forward stores

Grow 10 - 52 cows and calves with 30 stores

Grow 12 - 63 cows and calves with 30 stores

Key message the difference between 7&12 is worth €13000 to the farm

Good quote "Grow grass in three weeks and graze in 3" wise advice

You're thinking of dairying, extra suckler cows doesn't mean extra profit

frazzledhome · 02-08-2014 7:39am

rangler1 wrote: »

You're thinking of dairying, extra suckler cows doesn't mean extra profit

So I'm led to believe, but the point is the use of grass. Very interesting article 12 tonne of meal per year with it think 160 cattle.

Perhaps just perhaps suckler farms should be run like dairy farms, controlled paddocks and extended rather than extensive grazing. I'm making this comment purely based on what I see from the road and what I read here ie cows calving anytime of the year

rangler1 · 02-08-2014 8:25am

frazzledhome wrote: »

So I'm led to believe, but the point is the use of grass. Very interesting article 12 tonne of meal per year with it think 160 cattle.

Perhaps just perhaps suckler farms should be run like dairy farms, controlled paddocks and extended rather than extensive grazing. I'm making this comment purely based on what I see from the road and what I read here ie cows calving anytime of the year

I stocked sucklers here at over 1lu/acre for a while, land was too heavy in the bad years, dairy farmers have the opportunity to put in cows in bad weather........do it with sucklers and you risk the calves getting a virus

frazzledhome · 02-08-2014 8:41am

rangler1 wrote: »

I stocked sucklers here at over 1lu/acre for a while, land was too heavy in the bad years, dairy farmers have the opportunity to put in cows in bad weather........do it with sucklers and you risk the calves getting a virus

Funny a lot of dairy guys used to think their land was wet until they put in good roads and paddocks. I agree its much easier to supplement dairy animals in wet weather but how do we manage our maiden heifers and weanlings?

moy83 · 02-08-2014 8:56am

frazzledhome wrote: »

Funny a lot of dairy guys used to think their land was wet until they put in good roads and paddocks. I agree its much easier to supplement dairy animals in wet weather but how do we manage our maiden heifers and weanlings?

Do they go back in during the grazing season usually ?
Alot of suckler farms would have a big lump of a cow doing the damage in wet weather and if they have to go back in its the 200kg calf sucking them that will be vulnerable to a virus
A sacraficial paddock a bit better I suppose

Farmer Pudsey · 02-08-2014 9:51am

There is couple of difference between drystock and dairying. Dairying generates money and profit. In a grazing situation when grass gets tight in spring and autumn dairy farmers supplement inside in milking parlour, cows have access to cubicles and maybe supplemented there as well with silage. On some farms cows are supplemented all year around with diet feeders etc.

The general weight of cows is 5-600kgs. In a lot suckler farms cows would average 100kgs heavier. It would not pay to supplement with beef prices and even at that we have no access to byproducts like most of the rest of Europe. Bullocks can be 700kgs outside and as well as heifers can be young cattle that means that as a herd they tend to gallop accross paddocks fields if being fed and this along with troughs can cause serious damage to paddocks. A LU is one suckler cow and calf to 6 months at 6 months a good calf would be around 300kgs. So you could be averaging 800K of carcass weight/LU.

A farmer with 100 dairy cows can afford casual labour to help out and at over 130+ may have virtual fulltime labour. At that stocking rate a beef farmer still cannot afford labour costs. In general supplmentry feeding at grass is not possible or financial viable. The Derrypatrick suckler herd which is relatively dry farm showed the issue with high stocking rates on beef farms. During 2012 early 2013 most issues that arose on it would have financially destroyed most beef farmer.

The real issue is a beef farmers stocked at a high rate running a 21 day rotation will if covers get low have to be prepared to feed ration at grass, this is not like a dairy farm where cows come into a parlour ever day twice a day and have access Spring and Autumn where as a beef farmer stocked at that rate will be feeding that equivlent ration outside in corners of paddocks with cattle galloping across ground to access same. Believe it or not at present bullocks getting a few KGs will walk to troughs and well not push and bully unlike when ground is wet they will gallop and bully and tear up ground.

The other issue during Spring, autumn and wet summers grass utilisation will fall as cattle will be in paddocks 24 hours a day and cattle with empty or partially empty bellies will track ground so even things like strip grazing is not possible. Another thing that farmers that never fed meal outside is soiling grass by amount of dung produced this reduces utilisation as well . Any farmers that fed and finished bulls outside will have noticed this on a 4-5 day paddock system and in this system. Moving troughs is a pain especially in wet weather.

This is exactly the same misconception that dairy farmers are under about the autumn issue with stocking rate with dairy heifers. Supplement outside at that level will not be possible. You can look at actuat stocking rates of LU/HA weight/HA or number of animals/HA and the issue remains clear.

mahoney_j · 02-08-2014 10:09am

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

There is couple of difference between drystock and dairying. Dairying generates money and profit. In a grazing situation when grass gets tight in spring and autumn dairy farmers supplement inside in milking parlour, cows have access to cubicles and maybe supplemented there as well with silage. On some farms cows are supplemented all year around with diet feeders etc.

The general weight of cows is 5-600kgs. In a lot suckler farms cows would average 100kgs heavier. It would not pay to supplement with beef prices and even at that we have no access to byproducts like most of the rest of Europe. Bullocks can be 700kgs outside and as well as heifers can be young cattle that means that as a herd they tend to gallop accross paddocks fields if being fed and this along with troughs can cause serious damage to paddocks. A LU is one suckler cow and calf to 6 months at 6 months a good calf would be around 300kgs. So you could be averaging 800K of carcass weight/LU.

A farmer with 100 dairy cows can afford casual labour to help out and at over 130+ may have virtual fulltime labour. At that stocking rate a beef farmer still cannot afford labour costs. In general supplmentry feeding at grass is not possible or financial viable. The Derrypatrick suckler herd which is relatively dry farm showed the issue with high stocking rates on beef farms. During 2012 early 2013 most issues that arose on it would have financially destroyed most beef farmer.

The real issue is a beef farmers stocked at a high rate running a 21 day rotation will if covers get low have to be prepared to feed ration at grass, this is not like a dairy farm where cows come into a parlour ever day twice a day and have access Spring and Autumn where as a beef farmer stocked at that rate will be feeding that equivlent ration outside in corners of paddocks with cattle galloping across ground to access same. Believe it or not at present bullocks getting a few KGs will walk to troughs and well not push and bully unlike when ground is wet they will gallop and bully and tear up ground.

The other issue during Spring, autumn and wet summers grass utilisation will fall as cattle will be in paddocks 24 hours a day and cattle with empty or partially empty bellies will track ground so even things like strip grazing is not possible. Another thing that farmers that never fed meal outside is soiling grass by amount of dung produced this reduces utilisation as well . Any farmers that fed and finished bulls outside will have noticed this on a 4-5 day paddock system and in this system. Moving troughs is a pain especially in wet weather.

This is exactly the same misconception that dairy farmers are under about the autumn issue with stocking rate with dairy heifers. Supplement outside at that level will not be possible. You can look at actuat stocking rates of LU/HA weight/HA or number of animals/HA and the issue remains clear.

As a dairy man with a bit of beef now,but a lot in my dad's time it's very hard to disagree with any of that.as a general comment though I will say that a lot of beef/suckler men make very poor use of grass.there are obvious exceptions.at a wk recently I heard a quote threw out that stuck with me,beef at 4 euro a kg is the same as milk at 23 cent a litre.as a dairy man I couldn't make any money at 23,maby break even.a statement that really shows what a struggle beef farmers have and why there so keen on switching to dairy.

rangler1 · 02-08-2014 10:09am

frazzledhome wrote: »

Funny a lot of dairy guys used to think their land was wet until they put in good roads and paddocks. I agree its much easier to supplement dairy animals in wet weather but how do we manage our maiden heifers and weanlings?

Never had much problem with the lighter cattle/yearling but they often had to be put in because the sucklers had the whole farm poached

frazzledhome · 02-08-2014 10:43am

rangler1 wrote: »

Never had much problem with the lighter cattle/yearling but they often had to be put in because the sucklers had the whole farm poached

Yea, the cow is a heavy beast and add the calf. Could do damage quickly. Would on off cause a lot of pneumonia problems?

frazzledhome · 02-08-2014 10:49am

I suppose if you think you can't do it, your probably right.

Ye must concede that grass growing and utilisation must be top priority on all cattle farms. Supplement not substitute.

They guy in the article focused on the solution rather than the problem.

I don't accept that cattle can't be run through a shed for buffer. Not possible on fragmented farms, I know but most around here are 100 acres in one block.

Labour on a 150 cow suckler farm, when would that be required?

GrandSoftDay · 02-08-2014 11:16am

frazzledhome wrote: »

Funny a lot of dairy guys used to think their land was wet until they put in good roads and paddocks. I agree its much easier to supplement dairy animals in wet weather but how do we manage our maiden heifers and weanlings?

Given that most suckler farms are on the west coast I would have to disagree to an extent frazzled. At a discussion group last week a few of the lads were saying they had been at one of the derrypatrick open days and they had drained land up there which the fellas in the discussion group said was better than their best silage field. If teagasc want to research and quote figures to the lads in the west than that's where they should be doing their research, they are not comparing like with like. I'm lucky enough in that half of our grazing ground is dry and can graze it fairly early but the other half is wet and it's May most years before you could even think about grazing it, get a bad week in the summer then and it will turn into a garden. A lot of wet land in Clare , Kerry, West Cork, Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon and Donegal and this is where the vast majority of suckler farms are. I wish teagasc had found the wettest farm in the whole lot of them and set up their research farm there, At least the results would have applied to the lads farming in these areas.

Beef General Thread

Comments