Frugality and Irish Society

Questioning sacred Cows wrote: »

An awful lot of Irish people have no real concept of properly managing money because they never had any until the Celtic Tiger years. Countries that have been wealthy for many generations generally are better at managing money.

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

This is genuinely one of the greatest self-owns I've seen on this forum.

In accusing me of not knowing what cognitive bias means, you've revealed that you're the one who doesn't know what it means. There's probably no need to give a definition, as I'm sure you've just been googling it.

Throughout the thread, I've been trying to discuss trends. There's little point in discussing historical anomalies, or outliers (Google it)

This article from The Guardian provides a good oversight of research in this area, and the works of Weber; a lot of the former is available on Google Scholar.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/oct/31/economics-religion-research

steddyeddy wrote: »

You call the recessions in the UK outliers simply because it goes against your theory, not because it of the actual data. The UK has been in recessions in the 1920s, 1930s (great depression), 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and then 2008. You'll notice a similar trend in the US.
I don't think Catholic values deteriorate an economy to the point you think it does (i.e being one of the reasons Spain is in recession). The reason I don't find it compelling is that the far more severe recessions were in Protestant economies. Germany suffered even more than the UK during the great depression.

North America is Protestant and rich and the South America Catholic and poor. In Europe, with its nuances, it happens the same. Even in the Southern Hemisphere; compare Australia with the Philippines. If you consult the list of the ten countries with the highest income per capita, the ten with the highest social welfare, the ten most democratic, the ten most transparent or the ten least corrupt, you will see that seven or eight are Protestants. Protestantism generates freedom and prosperity. Let's see now why:

1) EDUCATION. With the Protestant Reformation of the sixteenth century, the theologian Martin Luther raised the need for people to read the Bible, and for this a great literacy campaign had to be done to instruct an uneducated people. But in the Catholic countries with which the priest knew how to read, it was more than enough. Thus, in the eighteenth century in England and the Netherlands, literacy reached 70% of the population, while in Spain or Portugal it did not even reach 10%.

2) SCIENCE. The reformed countries, devoted to reading the Bible, began to take an interest in the study of the world, of nature and of the stars, inspired no doubt by books such as Genesis, Psalms and other sacred texts. No wonder that in these nations began to emerge scientists like mushrooms. But in the countries of southern Europe, the Inquisition burned scientists in the middle of the plaza for heretics and used their works to swell their catalog of forbidden books.

3) LIE. For the protestants the lie is a very serious sin since it is mentioned in the Ten Commandments next to the homicide, the adultery or the robbery. Thus, in Germany, a politician usually resigns if it is shown that he has lied. In the United States, you can go to prison if you deliver a check with no funds. But in Catholic countries, such as Italy or Malta, it is a venial sin, a peccadillo, therefore lying floods politics, administration and finances and you can not trust anyone.

4) THEFT. In the reformed countries it was clearly understood that robbery was very serious, that all men were equal and that therefore private property was an inalienable right of all men, but in countries of the Counter-Reformation, much more attached to the Old Regime , private property was a privilege of the Crown, the nobility and the Catholic Church. Not in vain did communism triumph in Catholic Cuba. No one would have supported Fidel Castro in Canada.

5) ETHICS AT WORK. While in Catholic countries work is a punishment from God - when Adam is expelled from paradise - and manual crafts have less prestige than intellectuals, in Protestants work is not bad: in fact, Adam was already working in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:15); Being a sweeper is as worthy as being a surgeon and working with excellence and ethically is also a way to honor the Lord. Max Weber summed it up: work, savings and effort.

6) CAPITALISMO. For the Catholic Church wealth is a stigma and poverty a sign of humility and simplicity. Protestantism, on the other hand, understands that the problem is not money in itself but the love of money (1 Timothy 6:10) and that in fact being rich is not incompatible with being a good believer; there are the cases of José, Moisés, Daniel or Job, among others. It is no coincidence that capitalism, banking and business have reached their maximum expression in the countries of the Reformation.

7) DEMOCRACY. In the Protestant nations, there was a commitment to freedom and democracy, and a separation of the legislative, executive and judicial powers. Switzerland stands out, with its enviable direct democracy. By contrast, the countries of southern Europe and the Ibero-American republics were drowned in a myriad of absolutist monarchies, fascism, civil wars and coups that condemned them to poverty and backwardness. The Vatican is still the last theocracy in Europe.

8) SEPARATION CHURCH-STATE. While in the Protestant nations it was sought to divide the powers so that they are counterweighted, the Catholic Church tries until the date of which the civil power is put under the religious one. Thus, Holland soon allowed freedom of worship, in Scandinavia parliamentarism developed and the United States was born as a lay state. On the other hand, until very recently in Spain Francisco Franco was walking under a pallium and even today in Mexico the bishop commands.

9)EMPIRE IF THE LAW. For the theologian John Calvin, the law-that is, the Bible-had primacy, but for Catholics the primacy fell to an institution (the Catholic Church), out of which there is no salvation and which was responsible for interpreting the Bible. For the Reformation all citizens are equal, while for the Catholic Church not only all were not equal, but there were even some who were exempt from complying with the law (for example, with the famous bulls)

10) BIBLICAL VALUES. In short, Protestant nations have bent on biblical and Catholic principles for human traditions, many of which are not only extra-biblical but even openly unbiblical. It is the contrast between the values of the Book versus the values of rites, processions and images. It is the blessing for a people to be attached to the Word versus misery, the hecatomb and desolation that always await God.

POST SCRIPTUM

Catholic countries are generally poor and the few who are rich constitute the exception that confirms the rule. And, interestingly, they are the least Catholic of all. Thus, Ireland, Belgium, Luxembourg, Liechtenstein or Austria are very developed countries but they are thanks to the influence of the Protestant neighboring states. Similarly, France or Monaco are rich to a large extent because the French Revolution and secularism greatly limited the power of the Catholic Church there.

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think Irish people as a group have some kind of need to fill up a pit of despair or emptiness within themselves, be it conscious or unconscious, with all forms of 'enjoyment' eg alcohol, constant shopping. We want, want, want all the time and we keep filling up with temporary thrills. It's because we're very insecure and lacking in self esteem imo. People from other countries I think are able to get joy from simpler living. They manage to feel defined by who they are rather than what they have. Very small example but a French lady I know will invite you to her house for lunch and make a big deal about basically some crusty bread and a glass of wine. She is so relaxed she pulls it off beautifully. In reverse no Irish person would invite a guest for lunch and give them a slice of bread. And then there's the whole Danish hygge where if I understand it properly is all about embracing cosy simple pleasures. It's not enough for us here in Ireland to have enough, we want more all the time. Not everyone obviously but I definitely think success in Ireland is measured very much by how much you own.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Apples and Oranges

The UK is 12 times larger.

Ireland, a country of less than 5 million people, (3 mil smaller than London) has a national debt of 198 billion euro.

All Public service institutions are economic black holes. We're not managing well, we're struggling just like we always have.

odyssey06 wrote: »

Finland, Sweden, Iceland all have higher suicide rates than Ireland.
Now I can't rule out our figures being dodgy... but it doesn't suggest we are the Most Empty People Ever.

We do seem to have a lot of people like Una Mullaly, who only seem to be happy telling us why we're miserable.

We'd probably be happier still if we could be left alone to live our own lives in 'honour, decency, affection, in pleasure', to quote John McGahern.

4ensic15 wrote: »

Nil.

odyssey06 wrote: »

I dunno... I certainly wouldnt be getting one but they drive those cars in Germany too. Could be company cars... could be some sort of hire purchase or car loans.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Even then it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Ireland was much much poorer under British, Protestant rule than it is now. Look at the part of Ireland under British, Protestant rule and compare our economies.

Mrsmum wrote: »

I think Irish people as a group have some kind of need to fill up a pit of despair or emptiness within themselves, be it conscious or unconscious, with all forms of 'enjoyment' eg alcohol, constant shopping. We want, want, want all the time and we keep filling up with temporary thrills. It's because we're very insecure and lacking in self esteem imo. People from other countries I think are able to get joy from simpler living. They manage to feel defined by who they are rather than what they have. Very small example but a French lady I know will invite you to her house for lunch and make a big deal about basically some crusty bread and a glass of wine. She is so relaxed she pulls it off beautifully. In reverse no Irish person would invite a guest for lunch and give them a slice of bread. And then there's the whole Danish hygge where if I understand it properly is all about embracing cosy simple pleasures. It's not enough for us here in Ireland to have enough, we want more all the time. Not everyone obviously but I definitely think success in Ireland is measured very much by how much you own.

OleRodrigo wrote: »

PhilOssophy wrote: »

Its too short to waste it sitting in a cubicle to justify wasting money was my point! Maybe have another read.....

Nonsense. Sitting in a cubicle is called employment. Spending money is essential to economic vibrancy.