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Problem with bases.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭Wadi14


    Mach Two wrote: »
    The problem with the likes of Burris Steal QD rings and similar rings from what I could read was that they were not returning to zero. Or not as good as the Leopold Quick Release Bases.
    I am of course open to correction.

    Don't believe every thing you read as your having bother with your rings and the Burris seems to be working very well.

    Change them rings and base as there not working for you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mach Two


    If I have to I think I should be able to put a dovetail clamp/bracket on it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mach Two


    I have removed sight from rifle and put it on another rifle. It is grouping alright. No holes all over the place. I even adjusted the windage and bullet drop. Still held good groups. I also checked to see how centred it is. As I rotated it,it might move about 18 inches from centre when rotated at 30 yds.

    How good is this?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    You have eliminated two elements- the scope and the shooter.

    Now look at the rifle - check action screws, stock to action /barrel fit, mounts etc, etc.
    Also look at any similarities or not between one rifle and the other. Are scopes mounted at the same height, are you getting consistent cheek weld etc, if all check out then what evers left is the problem.
    "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
    Sherlock Holmes(1890)


  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mach Two


    It must be a mounts problem. The rifle was shooting very well before I changed the mounts. You said to centre the crosshairs. How much off centre can a sight move its reticle before problems occur. I hope to check the amount of clicks it will move in either direction.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭cookimonster


    555615.jpg

    Re Centreing the Reticle.

    Ok, sorry no time for computer graphics, drawings will have to do . A lot of assumptions and a bit of balistic heresy.

    Just pretend the scope has a full range of 80 clicks windage and elevation. That's 40 clicks to centre the reticle. Each click is 1/4 inch (I'm beyond middle aged).

    Diagram 1
    The scope reticle is centred and the is bore sighted, in this case is close as be damned to same point of aim (POA).

    Diagram 2
    First group on target at 100 yards is 2.5 inches up and 2.5 inches right from point of aim.

    Diagram 3
    That equates to 10 clicks up and 10 clicks right to zero POA and Ponit of Inpact. The scope reticle is now off centre. But there are 50/30 clicks adjustment to play around with.

    Diagram 4
    Shows you what you actually see in the eye piece, theres no discernable off centering.

    Diagram 5
    Shows extreme dialing / zero setting were the reticle has been dialed to the maximum values. On some scopes this can be noticeable (drawing depicts location of reticle in the housing not sight picture) with a poor ocular view, but not always. It can put strain on the erector system as well as drastically reducing useable adjustments in the scope.


    Now as I said, some assumptions were made, so imagine if the scope was not in line with the bore and you needed to dial in a good bit just to bore sight it then you are starting out with a limited amount of adjustments for zeroing. Think a standard scope on a 20MOA base this is going to shave a lot of adjustment off your elevation for standard hunting ranges of less then 200 yards. Your POI could be 12 or more inches above POA and you could have very little left in the way of adjustment on your dial.

    _______________________________________________________

    There's definitely something going on with the bases.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,031 ✭✭✭clivej


    Maybe your looking at the movies? And your expecting the same? Where the sniper gets the center fire break down rifle out of the suitcase, put it all together, swings on the scope and still gets the head shot at 200y.

    I have picatinny rails on all my rifles, medium priced good scopes, €400 on my rimfire rifles and €1200 on my center fire rifles. I have ALWAYS had to re-zero after taking a scope off and putting it back on. It's not out by a lot, maybe a couple of MOA but not good enough to go target shooting with and expect good results.

    Just think for a minute, back at school and the plastic protractor you used to measure angles with. That very small 1 degree mark from the zero line is sub-divided into 60 minutes segments. 1 MOA each segment. Each 1 minute is now sub-divided into 60 seconds.
    So now think that when 1 click of the turret = 1/4 MOA, that is 15 seconds of movement.
    Now think when you re-mount your scope it only has to be off just a very small amount to throw your original zero off quite a lot.

    And now my head hurts, after all this thinking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,382 ✭✭✭1874


    I've considered using quick release mounts so I can have 2 different scopes for different uses from the same rifle. I might just alternate between removing and reattaching different scopes, but have each scope with their own mounts fixed on and ready to attach by a nut fixture rather than quick release, ie not remove the mounts off the scopes. I had thought a good quality quick release might be a viable option, but I'd always expect to have to do some work to zero again. Yours sounds off in a different way.

    I had problems when setting up the same rifle originally so I think I may have problems ahead, but know how to fix them.
    When I fitted existing mounts, no matter what I did, I couldn't get it zeroed and the scope adjustments were at their limits and still not sorting things (I didn't like being a bit off, let alone way off).
    I got fully adjustable mounts (windage & elevation), used a laser borsecope, centred the scope as cookimonster mentioned previously, that got me on target/paper, made small adjustments again and fine tuned with the scope, rifle was spot on after that.
    I only removed the scope recently as I put a picattinny rail on as part of a new buttstock, my problem now is, I can't find a fully adjustable 1" mounts to fit a picatinny rail and it would be my preference to torque up everything (need to acquire a suitable small torque screwdriver or wrench).


    In my experience, I needed the fully adjustable mounts, the laser boresighter helped a lot (done at short range indoors first). That would be my route to resolve.


  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mach Two


    Not really expecting to have a setup where I can remove my sights and expect a complete return to zero. Anything would be an improvement on my current setup of changing sights. The poi could be anywhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭minktrapper


    We seem to be up and running again. Any update on this.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mach Two


    Just a quick update on this. I have fired 4 different 3 shot groups. I removed the sight after each group and replaced it. Needless to say I am very happy with the results. I have marked the different groups as an indicator as to how well the rifle performed. The target was at a measured 50 yds. I am using Leupold Quick Release Bases.





  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Good result.

    Quick question. You said when you removed the sights and refitted it would shift left or right. Is it constantly holding that left favoring? Of did you shoot the groups then finish off zeroing by adjusting that last 15mm to the right?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mach Two


    I should have explained how I fixed the problem. The point of impact was moving because the sight was not sitting dead flat on the two bases. So I put a shim in to fill the gap. It was only 0.2mm but was sufficient to cause a problem.

    It would put you thinking as to how many sights are twisted/bent by only a fraction using traditional mounting systems.

    When I was finished I just moved the poi to the right. The photographs were just to show the repeatability of the quick release mounts I am using.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I found out some time back how little of a "fault" can make a big difference at the target when I had a similar problem and was given shimming brass. It was something like 0.25mm thick yet placing a piece front and back of my scope gave me, iirc, something like 12"+ of adjustment at 100yds, so I completely believe what you're saying.


    Well glad you got sorted and thanks for updating the thread.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 275 ✭✭keith s


    Was reading through this thread too.

    Sorry for the silly question, but when you said:

    "The point of impact was moving because the sight was not sitting dead flat on the two bases."

    Is that the bottom U of the two rings were not level with each other, so when the scope sat in two them it was not sitting dead square in them.

    Then putting the top of the rings on and tighting down bends the scope or at least puts strain on the tube?

    If so, where did the problem lie or start, is it with the receiver, the rail or the rings?

    Cheers



  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mach Two


    The picture of my rifle seems to have been lost in the change over. So here it is again. Also I have a photo of the quick release mount I have used.

    The mount had to be machined so as to fit the dovetail rail on the rifle. The rings are fitted to the sight so in order to remove the sight you also remove the rings. Essentially I am lifting the sight and the rings off as a single unit and leaving the bases behind. The problem was with the base of the rings not sitting flat on the two bases when downward pressure was applied. So when I locked one base down the other would be lifted off the base so that a gap would left. When downward pressure was applied on the second ring to lock it in I was actually bending the sight. So a shim had to be inserted to fill the gap.



  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mach Two


    Out of curiosity where did you put the shims to give the adjustment.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Between the scope tube and the inside of the ring. Bottom on the rear ring and top on the front. Didn't leave it there long, it was a simple test. I then tried under the rings and while this was more secure I could only use either the front or back, not both. So had to double up on shims which presented a secure mounting to the rail issue.

    Very soon after I bought my first 20moa rail. About 13 years ago now.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mach Two


    Would putting a shim between the tube and the ring not affect the tightening of the rings on to the tube.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Yup, hence the reason I only tested it. It prevented a secure tightening of the rings from the point of view that the ring was not clasping the scope tube, but rather the shim. It added additional pressure when tightening the rings which could have lead to crimping the scope tube, plus the shim would allow a certain amount of "slippage" of the scope in the rings if not fully tightened.

    So tighten normally and I rish crimping, don't tighten fully and I risk the scope being loose in the rings.

    The shim on the bases worked better and I could get, iirc, up to three shims in (at 0.25mm per shim) at a time, but it got to the point after say three where the rings would sit up higher on the rail and I'm back facing proper/secure mounting of the ring on the rail.

    As said above these were all trial and error missions. I had only just started into long range stuff so it was all new to me. The 20moa rial eliminated all that with no mounting/secure issues.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mach Two


    And where would you put a shim on the base?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    At first I put it under the rings, between it and the rail. That was what caused the problem above.

    Then I cut three shims, rounded them to the action, drilled a small hole through all three, placed them directly onto the action, and aligned them all so the rail would screw down through the shims into the action. This worked the best of all three methods. The only "issue" which wasn't that much, but an issue none the less, was the "reach" of the screw. While the total depth of the shim was small something about it seemed to prevent a constant locking of the rail/action screw. IOW I was constantly checking that the screw did not come loose.

    Perhaps it was the "burr" from the drilled hole. In hindsight there may not have been a need to drill the shims and place them over the screw hole, but I wanted to make sure the shims wouldn't move so used the screw as an anchor point.

    As said above I done all this because at the time the Savage FTR had just come out, and there were no inclined MOA rails for it. Plenty of 0moa rails and for Remington, plus other, actions. Then I found a company in Canada, Richard Near, and they offered 20 and 30moa rails, custom made, for the Savage. Ordered one and 10 days later it arrived. Job done.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mach Two


    So you did not have a dovetail rail on the action. I was wondering how you could put a shim under the rings.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Not with my Savage FTR It was a drilled and tapped receiver/action, much like other centre fire rifles, but did not come with a rail or a pre-fabricated dovetail.

    I done all the above while using a two piece base system. Then bought a 0moa rail designed for it, and eventually the 20moa rail. It was a process of learning, trial & error, and most importantly trying to get something that would get me shooting.

    I bought my Savage immedately after they came out. It was so new there were no accessories available here for them, so needs must.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 714 ✭✭✭Mach Two


    And how did you find the rifle. As in accuracy,trigger and general feel.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    The rifle itself? Unbelievable. One of the best, out of the box, factory rifles I have ever shot. Accurate, crisp trigger pull (even though some people would later swap out the trigger I preferred it's own) and generally an excellent rifle. Only thing that compared to it was an RPA I had which cost over 2 grand more than the Savage, just for the rifle.

    Only gripes would be the palm swell/handgrip. Not enitrely suitable for someone with smallish hands, but they made it to suit everyone so no complaints really.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭minktrapper


    What happened them with the Savage Bmag in the new Winchester Super Magnum Rimfire. I never handled one but is supposed to be a disaster.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    No idea. Wouldn't have been a seller here I'd imagine. Never seen one nor held one.

    Glancing at reviews it seems a bad stock, bad barrel, poor quality in general. But as I said, no personal experience with them.

    I can vouch for their other rifles having shot or owned the model 12 Palma, BTVS R93 17hmr thumbhole, their absolutely brilliant BVSS model 12 in 243 (unreal rifle), Model 10 FCP in 308, even their 223 range like the Axis. For €600 it was a cheap gun with a poor stock but overall a decent rifle.

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