Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Semi Auto Rifles contd

24

Comments

  • #52
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,077 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    I no exceptions. :rolleyes:

    Sometimes it is comic to hear them, but I really wish those interviews were recorded. :P

    NOTHING stopping you from requesting such...As it is a formal interview and it is commonly accepted practise in the world of law and commerce to openly record business meetings, and you are doing it for the exact same reason AGS do it themselves down in the dungeon...Er ...interview rooms.
    So long as both /all parties consent, and if requested you provide a copy of the interview tape and /or transcript as well.

    It also keeps things civil and professional and people in mind their P's and Q's. So they cant try and badger you into a reaction,to say you are unsuitable to be licensed.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #53
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Don't mind tape recorders, i'd be turning up with a solicitor. The way i was treated more than once by the gits, its the tack i would take.


  • #54
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    NOTHING stopping you from requesting such...As it is a formal interview and it is commonly accepted practise in the world of law and commerce to openly record business meetings, and you are doing it for the exact same reason AGS do it themselves down in the dungeon...Er ...interview rooms.
    So long as both /all parties consent, and if requested you provide a copy of the interview tape and /or transcript as well.

    It also keeps things civil and professional and people in mind their P's and Q's. So they cant try and badger you into a reaction,to say you are unsuitable to be licensed.

    I know exactly how that would go.
    Suddenly I would not be interviewed, the application would be turned down with the nebulous "no good and sufficient reason" argument, and it'd be court.
    I'd been told as much last renewal. :mad:
    tudderone wrote: »
    Don't mind tape recorders, i'd be turning up with a solicitor. The way i was treated more than once by the gits, its the tack i would take.

    Strongly considered that after the last one...
    Not informing AGS beforehand, but just turning up with one.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • #55
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,077 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Just looking at my renewal form here.Just ticking a box is not sufficient anymore. Big ol space there that needs filling in with their justification of refusal. Then of course you can also FOIA it.

    But if you have been treated like that, I would certainly pitch up with a legal eagle too. I'd also call their bluff on the court too,and go and file for a hearing if I was treated like that right after the interview.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #56
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Legal to do here or not ? You are not actually shooting while moving.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWrVU2DSJHU


  • #57
    BSA International
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭BSA International


    tudderone wrote: »
    Don't mind tape recorders, i'd be turning up with a solicitor. The way i was treated more than once by the gits, its the tack i would take.

    Been there myself.

    A buddy advised Super he was bringing a solicitor with him and Super refused to meet him. So he went alone. When buddy went in to the meeting there was the Super and a Sergeant on other side of table ......


  • #58
    BSA International
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭BSA International


    JB88, have a c/f pistol? Did you ever have one? Some have lost c/f pistols on strength of same announcement hanging over s/a rifles, I know of lads.

    Cass is right to advise people of possibility if losing them even if you don't think they will. When the c/f pistol ban was mooted there were many at the time saying much same as you are now. They were wrong.


  • #59
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    BSA International wrote: »
    Been there myself.

    A buddy advised Super he was bringing a solicitor with him and Super refused to meet him. So he went alone. When buddy went in to the meeting there was the Super and a Sergeant on other side of table ......

    Its a complete lack of professionalism on their behalf. They might not like licencing firearms, but its part of their duties. All they have to do is treat you with civility, and weigh up the merits of the application, and the applicant.

    Maybe its changed now, but the supers/chief's i met were all old duffers sitting it out for their pension. Part of the generation, who, like priests and bishops here, once they got the uniform on, thought they were the law.


  • #60
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    tudderone wrote: »
    Legal to do here or not ? You are not actually shooting while moving.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWrVU2DSJHU


    Cannot see the problem.
    Not vastly different from the PRS comps as far as movement goes.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Advertisement
  • #61
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,077 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    Cannot see the problem.
    Not vastly different from the PRS comps as far as movement goes.

    Apart from needing a bunch of 10 round mags and needing to do mag changes as well.Can't see a problem with it.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #62
    smmember20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    tudderone wrote: »
    Yes.

    So if you had it before 2008 you can even now make application for to have it licenced!!!


  • #63
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    smmember20 wrote: »
    So if you had it before 2008 you can even now make application for to have it licenced!!!

    All guesswork here but I'm guessing that Tudder doesn't have it any more seeing as he said 'he knows where it is'. That probably means that he sold it but knows who has it now. The option to buy it back may not be there. And it's risky buying it back when there's no guarantee of getting the licence.

    On the other hand, if it's sitting in a gun dealer's safe, I'd certainly apply as an application costs nothing.


  • #64
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Tudderone, sorry for being nosey and tell me to sod off if you like but did you have the pistol licenced before November 2008 or did you just own it before then and never held a licence for it?


  • #65
    smmember20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    All guesswork here but I'm guessing that Tudder doesn't have it any more seeing as he said 'he knows where it is'. That probably means that he sold it but knows who has it now. The option to buy it back may not be there. And it's risky buying it back when there's no guarantee of getting the licence.

    On the other hand, if it's sitting in a gun dealer's safe, I'd certainly apply as an application costs nothing.

    So the value of having held a CF licence prior to 2008 is high, personally if he knows where it is, he could ask the lad if he could make an application for the gun as you probably know a gun can be licenced by more than one person, once the licence issues he can them make application for a substitution for another 9mm which I am sure there are no shortages of in dealers!!! Where there is a will there is a way!!!!!!


  • #66
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    smmember20 wrote: »
    So the value of having held a CF licence prior to 2008 is high, personally if he knows where it is, he could ask the lad if he could make an application for the gun as you probably know a gun can be licenced by more than one person, once the licence issues he can them make application for a substitution for another 9mm which I am sure there are no shortages of in dealers!!! Where there is a will there is a way!!!!!!

    There's a bit of an arugment going on as to whether or not centrefire pistols can be substituted. I've seen no official proof that it is legally allowed. I'm not saying it's not allowed, it's just that the vast majority of us have seen nothing official.


  • Advertisement
  • #67
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Tudderone, sorry for being nosey and tell me to sod off if you like but did you have the pistol licenced before November 2008 or did you just own it before then and never held a licence for it?

    Yeah had it licenced and shot it, its part of what gets up my nose about the gardai and licencing etc. I had it and other centrefire pistols for years, then the new rules came in and all of a sudden i wasn't to be trusted anymore.


  • #68
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    tudderone wrote: »
    Yeah had it licenced and shot it, its part of what gets up my nose about the gardai and licencing etc. I had it and other centrefire pistols for years, then the new rules came in and all of a sudden i wasn't to be trusted anymore.

    Sounds like you've good grounds to reapply to be honest.

    I'd be feeling sick if I was in your shoes to have been blackguarded by the Gardai back then.

    Might be worth an application seeing as the law seems to be on your side and the spotlight is on the behaviour of the Gardai much more so now than back in 2008.


  • #69
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Sounds like you've good grounds to reapply to be honest.

    I'd be feeling sick if I was in your shoes to have been blackguarded by the Gardai back then.

    Might be worth an application seeing as the law seems to be on your side and the spotlight is on the behaviour of the Gardai much more so now than back in 2008.

    I doubt i'd bother tbh, i have a .22 pistol and with the banning of practical shooting i don't see much point.


  • #70
    smmember20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    There's a bit of an arugment going on as to whether or not centrefire pistols can be substituted. I've seen no official proof that it is legally allowed. I'm not saying it's not allowed, it's just that the vast majority of us have seen nothing official.

    Are you a member of NASRPC through one of the clubs, in December 2017, the DOJ issued a statement to all FCP members including the NASRPC, this is the definitive statement related to the advices from the AG, I am sorry I cannot find my copy but it is there in black and white and tell me all the armchair solicitors are better thand the advice from the DOJ on foot of the advices from AG.


  • #71
    smmember20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    tudderone wrote: »
    I doubt i'd bother tbh, i have a .22 pistol and with the banning of practical shooting i don't see much point.

    Well indeed that's your choice.


  • Advertisement
  • #72
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,638 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    smmember20 wrote: »
    Are you a member of NASRPC through one of the clubs, in December 2017, the DOJ issued a statement to all FCP members including the NASRPC, this is the definitive statement related to the advices from the DPP, I am sorry I cannot find my copy but it is there in black and white and tell me all the armchair solicitors are better thand the advice from the DOJ on foot of the advices from DPP.

    The DPP had nothing to do with that.


  • #73
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,077 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Advice from the attorney general methinks .

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #74
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    smmember20 wrote: »
    Are you a member of NASRPC through one of the clubs, in December 2017, the DOJ issued a statement to all FCP members including the NASRPC, this is the definitive statement related to the advices from the DPP, I am sorry I cannot find my copy but it is there in black and white and tell me all the armchair solicitors are better thand the advice from the DOJ on foot of the advices from DPP.

    I was a member of the NASRPC but not any more. Maybe I will again, some day.

    With respect, and this is in no way a dig at you, the law as it stands seems to ban giving out licences for centrefire pistols that weren't licenced before November 2008 so until I see absolute proof that it's legal to substitute centrefire pistols I'll go with what the law seems to say. In other words, if the Gardai give you a licence for a centrefire pistol, that licence isn't valid so you would be in possession of an unlicenced firearm.

    Again, apologies if it looks like I am attacking you; I'm not. But I wouldn't hang my coat on an unseen statement from the DOJ as they have made many errors in the past, not least the recent case they lost along with Revenue over the importation of a stock and some spare parts. If I saw the statement then maybe I'd change my attitude but given that it isn't widely distributed, I've nothing to go on.


  • #75
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,077 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    I'd want to see it in writing from;
    The attorney general, the DOJ,and the Cheif Commish stating that this is official,and such an action will be done without let or hindrance in the process.
    As well as a clear process on how this is to be done that has to be accepted by the persona designates of Cheif Supers or DC judges.
    IOW this has to be as easily done as a substitution lic of any other firearm.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #76
    smmember20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    Witcher wrote: »
    The DPP had nothing to do with that.

    Absolutely correct apologies I got the DPP mixed up with the AG!

    Sorry


  • #77
    smmember20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    I'd want to see it in writing from;
    The attorney general, the DOJ,and the Cheif Commish stating that this is official,and such an action will be done without let or hindrance in the process.
    As well as a clear process on how this is to be done that has to be accepted by the persona designates of Cheif Supers or DC judges.
    IOW this has to be as easily done as a substitution lic of any other firearm.

    I really can't understand this attitude, if you were a member of any organsiation who was a member of the FCP in December 2017 they were circulated with the communication from Justice (ask them for a copy), of course if you have no association with any member organsiation of the FCP then what can I say..................


  • #78
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    smmember20 wrote: »
    I really can't understand this attitude, if you were a member of any organsiation who was a member of the FCP in December 2017 they were circulated with the communication from Justice (ask them for a copy), of course if you have no association with any member organsiation of the FCP then what can I say..................

    Given that many shooting organisations have done solo runs in the past, there's a reason that there is a little distrust in the shooting community. And it goes without saying that there's general distrust of the autorities too given the way the shooting community has been treated in the past (temporary custody order etc).

    Call me the 'Doubting Thomas' but I'd like to see the actual document and have very robust legal advice that the document has any legal standing before I'd be going and substituting my (hypothetical) centrefire pistol.


  • #79
    tudderone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Some manufacturers, SIG and some others i believe, will sell you a new pistol with your serial number on it, if you return to them the original pistol, which they keep or destroy. Just thought i'd chuck that in to muddy the waters a bit.


  • #80
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    I did a little bit of digging. :D

    I haven't seen the exact document(s) but apparently there was communication from the DOJ some time in 2017 regarding the substitution of centrefire pistols.

    It begins roughly like this........and I acknowledge that I may not have it verbatim but............'Although a contrary argument can be made, our legal advice is that, on balance, a Court is likely to find that section bla bla bla of bla bla bla doesn't act as a bar to substituting restricted short firearm under section bla bla bla.

    There's a few things there that scare me.

    1. It's based on legal advice that the DOJ got. Legal advice isn't always correct. See recent case with Revenue on the importation of a stock and parts.

    2. The DOJ admit that a contrary argument can be made. Again, not something you want to see happen before a judge.

    3. 'on balance' are words that you don't really want to see in legal advice as it means that things aren't 100% black and white. So it's a gamble with the odds in your favour, but a gamble nonetheless.

    There's another worrying part of that same DOJ communication.

    It says that you may be able to substitute your pistol and get licenced on another pistol but once the licence on your substitute pistol expires, it can't be renewed as it wasn't licenced before November 2008.

    So what are the options then?........substitute it back for your original pistol before it expires and hope the Gardai process that substitution in a timely fashion? Or do you let it expire and put it in storage with a gun dealer while you apply for a new licence on your old pistol?

    It's messy at best, and not legal at worst.


  • #81
    smmember20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Given that many shooting organisations have done solo runs in the past, there's a reason that there is a little distrust in the shooting community. And it goes without saying that there's general distrust of the autorities too given the way the shooting community has been treated in the past (temporary custody order etc).

    Call me the 'Doubting Thomas' but I'd like to see the actual document and have very robust legal advice that the document has any legal standing before I'd be going and substituting my (hypothetical) centrefire pistol.

    Grand ask for it from your FCP rep and stop belly aching!


  • Advertisement
  • #82
    smmember20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I did a little bit of digging. :D

    I haven't seen the exact document(s) but apparently there was communication from the DOJ some time in 2017 regarding the substitution of centrefire pistols.

    It begins roughly like this........and I acknowledge that I may not have it verbatim but............'Although a contrary argument can be made, our legal advice is that, on balance, a Court is likely to find that section bla bla bla of bla bla bla doesn't act as a bar to substituting restricted short firearm under section bla bla bla.

    There's a few things there that scare me.

    1. It's based on legal advice that the DOJ got. Legal advice isn't always correct. See recent case with Revenue on the importation of a stock and parts.

    2. The DOJ admit that a contrary argument can be made. Again, not something you want to see happen before a judge.

    3. 'on balance' are words that you don't really want to see in legal advice as it means that things aren't 100% black and white. So it's a gamble with the odds in your favour, but a gamble nonetheless.

    There's another worrying part of that same DOJ communication.

    It says that you may be able to substitute your pistol and get licenced on another pistol but once the licence on your substitute pistol expires, it can't be renewed as it wasn't licenced before November 2008.

    So what are the options then?........substitute it back for your original pistol before it expires and hope the Gardai process that substitution in a timely fashion? Or do you let it expire and put it in storage with a gun dealer while you apply for a new licence on your old pistol?

    It's messy at best, and not legal at worst.
    So it looks like you have seen the actual document so why all the **llox!

    Bottom line it is possible to substitute a CF pistol!!! So lets drop the complications.


  • #83
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    smmember20 wrote: »
    So it looks like you have seen the actual document so why all the **llox!

    I wasn't rude to you so I'd ask you to repay me the compliment.

    I haven't seen the document, I was told what it contained.

    But putting that aside, do you still think it's 100% legal to substitute centrefire pistols. You don't think there are any merits in my arugments?


  • #84
    smmember20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I wasn't rude to you so I'd ask you to repay me the compliment.

    I haven't seen the document, I was told what it contained.

    But putting that aside, do you still think it's 100% legal to substitute centrefire pistols. You don't think there are any merits in my arugments?

    Rude I don't think so! But pretending to not know the content appears to be how you were playing it, no apologies I am afraid.

    Do I think it 100% legal to substitute a CF pistol, yes I did it april 2020 and would not be so confident if not being someone of many who has sucessfully done same, PS in firness do you actually own a CF pistol?


  • #85
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    smmember20 wrote: »
    Do I think it 100% legal to substitute a CF pistol, yes I did it april 2020 and would not be so confident it not being someone of many who has sucessfully done same, PS in firness do you actually own a CF pistol?

    You mightn't believe me but best of luck with it. I hope it works out for you.

    I don't own a centrefire pistol as I came to the sport a few years outside of the cut-off date. If I could licence one, I'd get one tomorrow.

    By the way, I don't have to own a centrefire pistol to have an opinion on legislation. I loosely work with legislation and I don't like when things are not black and white, and I know for a fact that legal advice sometimes isn't correct.

    My point is that when push comes to shove, it's legislation that counts and not legal advice.

    If you got an awkward Minister or Commissioner, I wouldn't like to be the test case if the Dept. decided to go after you.



    That said, the legal advice may well be correct, but it isn't legislation


  • #86
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,077 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    smmember20 wrote: »
    I really can't understand this attitude, if you were a member of any organsiation who was a member of the FCP in December 2017 they were circulated with the communication from Justice (ask them for a copy), of course if you have no association with any member organsiation of the FCP then what can I say..................

    I have thru the club membership automatic membership with the NASRPC...Who quite frankly,i consider having been asleep at the wheel for the last two major events.The high cap mag ban, the ban on possession of converted assault rifles in Sept 2019...We have had literally crickets on these two topics from this organisation before,or during this event. I had to go and meet personally as the PRO of Firearms United Network Ireland with the DOJ on Dec1st 2109 to get some clarity on this issue.

    So forgive me if I come across a tad cynical, that I dont hold very much faith in this organisation that is supposed to represent target shooting,but missed the memo about those two topics that affects some of its members and one of its growing disciplines...

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #87
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    NASRPC...Who quite frankly,i consider having been asleep at the wheel for the last two major events.The high cap mag ban, the ban on possession of converted assault rifles in Sept 2020...

    Agree completely, utterly useless.
    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    We have had literally crickets on these two topics from this organisation before,or during this event. I had to go and meet personally as the PRO of Firearms United Network Ireland with the DOJ on Dec1st 2109 to get some clarity on this issue.

    Did you actually get some clarity?
    I know the wording of both is rather dire and unworkable, but did you get anything beyond the usual fobbing off when you enquired?

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • #88
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,077 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »

    Did you actually get some clarity?
    I know the wording of both is rather dire and unworkable, but did you get anything beyond the usual fobbing off when you enquired?

    Nothing concrete, and maybe an oral agreement to include in the new Garda guidelines, that 20 round rifle mags if irreparably blocked to 10 rounds would be considered complicit with the act on the basis of the HC precedent of the .22 pistol mags... Wouldn't hold my breath or bet the farm on it tho.:(

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #89
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Nothing concrete, and maybe an oral agreement to include in the new Garda guidelines, that 20 round rifle mags if irreparably blocked to 10 rounds would be considered complicit with the act on the basis of the HC precedent of the .22 pistol mags... Wouldn't hold my breath or bet the farm on it tho.:(

    Interesting, I would have thought that any mags restricted to 10 rounds would have been allowable. Given not just the 22 pistol precedent but also tubular mags on shotgun and 22s being restricted in such a way being legal.
    A la the 30 round pmag you can replace the baseplate of which limits them to 10 rounds.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • #90
    jb88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 475 ✭✭jb88


    smmember20 wrote: »
    Grand ask for it from your FCP rep and stop belly aching!

    Never ask the Gardai for legal advice, their job is to prosecute not judge


  • Advertisement
  • #91
    smmember20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    I have thru the club membership automatic membership with the NASRPC...Who quite frankly,i consider having been asleep at the wheel for the last two major events.The high cap mag ban, the ban on possession of converted assault rifles in Sept 2019...We have had literally crickets on these two topics from this organisation before,or during this event. I had to go and meet personally as the PRO of Firearms United Network Ireland with the DOJ on Dec1st 2109 to get some clarity on this issue.

    So forgive me if I come across a tad cynical, that I dont hold very much faith in this organisation that is supposed to represent target shooting,but missed the memo about those two topics that affects some of its members and one of its growing disciplines...

    For many years I have seen the organisation go though many phases of development and also rough patches, unfortunatley as with all voluntary organisations it is difficult to sustain high levels of representation as there is a personal cost always to be paid and yes I have seen individuals burn out and fall by the wayside, not the least as a result of sustained abuse by some members of the shooting community.

    I see from your post it is easy to be cynical and easy to stand back and make statements just like the above statement, forgive me but I have never seen your goodself step forward to work on any association that represents shooting interests.

    The evolution of this thread astounds me I simply added my positive experience related to an achievement by a consolidated effort of a number of associations to clarify the legal postion around substitutions which was done and there is detailled enquiry by folks who don't even have a CF pistol........... I despair!


  • #92
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    smmember20 wrote: »
    I see from your post it is easy to be cynical and easy to stand back and make statements just like the above statement, forgive me but I have never seen your goodself step forward to work on any association that represents shooting interests.

    Would the below not qualify?
    Literally part of what you quoted in your reply. :confused:
    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    I had to go and meet personally as the PRO of Firearms United Network Ireland with the DOJ on Dec1st 2109 to get some clarity on this issue.

    Or are we talking physically seeing in person? ;)

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • #93
    smmember20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    otmmyboy2 wrote: »
    Would the below not qualify?
    Literally part of what you quoted in your reply. :confused:



    Or are we talking physically seeing in person? ;)

    Firearms United Network Ireland

    So what did they publish after the meeting, if the PRO is all knowing then why am I being quizzed.

    Can I ask where are they now and who actually is a member?

    Sorry it is easy to generate a name and a function but sustaining same is a real job!


  • #94
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    smmember20 wrote: »
    The evolution of this thread astounds me I simply added my positive experience related to an achievement by a consolidated effort of a number of associations...
    Nope. You first appeared in a nearly 4 year old thread signing the praises of a group that has submitted secret proposals to have rimfire pistols further restricted, ban semi auto rifles and attack other aspects of shooting sports all on their own volition with no consultation or notification to the other shooting groups.
    ........ to clarify the legal postion around substitutions which was done.........
    Nope.

    You have called it everything from advice to a statement to authorisation and when asked the most basic of questions surrounding actual legal status your reply is "find out yourself".
    ...... and there is detailled enquiry by folks who don't even have a CF pistol........... I despair!
    That is an argument from authority as though those without a C/F pistol are somehow not entitled to have an opinion or input. I have a C/F pistol and you have repeatedly refused to answer my question simply telling me to find out myself. Same for others.

    So other than a self gratifying pat on the pat you have achieved absolutely nothing and then claim to "despair" when people don't kneel and flagellate themselves before the altar of the SC, as you seemingly have done?
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



  • #95
    otmmyboy2
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,594 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    smmember20 wrote: »
    Firearms United Network Ireland

    So what did they publish after the meeting, if the PRO is all knowing then why am I being quizzed.

    Can I ask where are they now and who actually is a member?

    Sorry it is easy to generate a name and a function but sustaining same is a real job!

    I read it at the time, was a hell of a lot more than I ever heard from any other shooting org in Ireland about the SI:
    https://www.facebook.com/FirearmsUnitedIreland/posts/3775958839153804

    Not affiliated but FUNI is the Ireland branch of https://firearms-united.com/

    Worldwide pro-firearms advocacy group, particularly active in Europe.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • #96
    smmember20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    Cass wrote: »
    Nope. You first appeared in a nearly 4 year old thread signing the praises of a group that has submitted secret proposals to have rimfire pistols further restricted, ban semi auto rifles and attack other aspects of shooting sports all on their own volition with no consultation or notification to the other shooting groups.

    Nope.

    You have called it everything from advice to a statement to authorisation and when asked the most basic of questions surrounding actual legal status your reply is "find out yourself".


    That is an argument from authority as though those without a C/F pistol are somehow not entitled to have an opinion or input. I have a C/F pistol and you have repeatedly refused to answer my question simply telling me to find out myself. Same for others.

    So other than a self gratifying pat on the pat you have achieved absolutely nothing and then claim to "despair" when people don't kneel and flagellate themselves before the altar of the SC, as you seemingly have done?

    wow I stand totally slapped down, I simply applied what was in the public domaine and substituted my CF, sorry if I ahve not been all enlightening to detail that is aleady published!


  • Advertisement
  • #97
    yubabill
    Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭yubabill


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    I did a little bit of digging. :D

    I haven't seen the exact document(s) but apparently there was communication from the DOJ some time in 2017 regarding the substitution of centrefire pistols.

    It begins roughly like this........and I acknowledge that I may not have it verbatim but............'Although a contrary argument can be made, our legal advice is that, on balance, a Court is likely to find that section bla bla bla of bla bla bla doesn't act as a bar to substituting restricted short firearm under section bla bla bla.

    There's a few things there that scare me.

    1. It's based on legal advice that the DOJ got. Legal advice isn't always correct. See recent case with Revenue on the importation of a stock and parts.

    2. The DOJ admit that a contrary argument can be made. Again, not something you want to see happen before a judge.

    3. 'on balance' are words that you don't really want to see in legal advice as it means that things aren't 100% black and white. So it's a gamble with the odds in your favour, but a gamble nonetheless.

    There's another worrying part of that same DOJ communication.

    It says that you may be able to substitute your pistol and get licenced on another pistol but once the licence on your substitute pistol expires, it can't be renewed as it wasn't licenced before November 2008.

    So what are the options then?........substitute it back for your original pistol before it expires and hope the Gardai process that substitution in a timely fashion? Or do you let it expire and put it in storage with a gun dealer while you apply for a new licence on your old pistol?

    It's messy at best, and not legal at worst.

    The answer is in the form of a question - is the new 3-year licence a renewal or is it a re-application?

    A renewal means the licence is ongoing......I tend to think they changed the system to a formal re-application every 3 years.


  • #98
    yubabill
    Registered Users Posts: 335 ✭✭yubabill


    Speaking of semi autos, Martin Callinan the former AGS Commissioner has been investigated regarding a smear campaign against Maurice McCabe and a file is going to the DPP.

    The investigating tribunal rejected his denial of knowledge of the campaign.

    You might remember all the stories in red top media here about gun crime, firearm theft and other stories painting us in a bad light just prior to AGS seeking a ban on CF semi autos.

    I submitted to the dail committee that AGS were forbidden to advocate for legislation, which was studiously ignored.

    Don't know who was behind the red top shooting stories, btw, but they were full of new AGS statistics at the time and the perspectives were fairly slanted against us.


  • #99
    smmember20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 161 ✭✭smmember20


    Cass wrote: »
    Nope. You first appeared in a nearly 4 year old thread signing the praises of a group that has submitted secret proposals to have rimfire pistols further restricted, ban semi auto rifles and attack other aspects of shooting sports all on their own volition with no consultation or notification to the other shooting groups.

    It is strange how you can make appaently factual statements with no basis in fact, the significant issue about the potential to ban S/A rifles arose out of significant pressure brought to bear by AGS in which they sought a ban on S/A rifles, I know it to be a fact that the SC along with its associated groups arranged a show and tell at Harbour House in which there was a demonstration at that range of all of the sporting firearms used, to the then Minister FF and her officials.
    Prior to the visit to HH the Minister & Justice officials visited Garda HQ where they were shown the blackest S/A with so many accesories that the DOJ officials couldn't pick it up.
    At the round table discussion in HH at which I can tell you I was present, the Minister indicated some concern about S/A rifles due to the negative publicity that they had attracted and she stated at that meeting that there may be a consideration to cap S/A rifles if in their view there was an excessive ploferation of them, this was also stated realted to .22 pistols by the Minsiter.
    Fact: There were no proposals by SC or its affilaited organsiations of which all major shooting organisations were members at that time to ban S/A rifles, it came from AGS and articulated by DOJ, it was a cap not a ban, and indeed it has never come to pass!
    Further restrications on rimfire pistols, I can assure you the SC prevented a total ban on .22 pistols, take that any way you want!
    And as for attacks on shooting sports remember SC was a group of affiliated shooting associations, nothing was done on their own volition but in concensus.
    You may wish to try to rewrite the past but we are where we are
    No S/A rifle Bans
    .22 Pistols licenced when members of a recognised club
    Can't see any attacks on other aspects of shooting sport evident.
    No doubt my response will attacks a hail of abuse!


  • #100
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    smmember20 wrote: »
    It is strange how you can make appaently factual statements with no basis in fact,
    Which ones are fiction?
    the significant issue about the potential to ban S/A rifles arose out of significant pressure brought to bear by AGS in which they sought a ban on S/A rifles,
    As i said earlier in this thread, post #27, the so called sports coalition sent in a secret proposal saying they would seek a cap on the licensing of all semi auto centrefires except for those pre-1950. I even posted a link to the sports coalition's website where they say it:
    Cass wrote:
    I am not advocating for the limitation or "capping" of licenses (that was the sports coalitions doing).

    The so called sports coalition also called for banning of currently licenseable 22lr pistols that did not meet thei new criteria. Again from their own website:
    In relation to the .22 handguns which are currently licensed, this matter must be resolved by a new S.I. before the 2015 renewal date. The terms of resolution could restrict the licensing of such firearms to .22 calibre short firearms suitable for competition under ISSF rules (which include Olympic competitions), but with a barrel length of NOT LESS than 5 inches, and NOT LONGER than 30cm and with a magazine capacity NOT EXCEEDING 10 rounds.

    At the round table discussion in HH at which I can tell you I was present, the Minister indicated some concern about S/A rifles due to the negative publicity that they had attracted and she stated at that meeting that there may be a consideration to cap S/A rifles if in their view there was an excessive ploferation of them, this was also stated realted to .22 pistols by the Minsiter.
    Fact: There were no proposals by SC or its affilaited organsiations of which all major shooting organisations were members at that time to ban S/A rifles, it came from AGS and articulated by DOJ, it was a cap not a ban, and indeed it has never come to pass!
    Yes there was. Its on their website. I linked to it earlier in this thread and just above.

    Also i don't know who is feeding you information but tell them to fact check. You say all major shooting bodies were affiliated members, no they were not. At the time it consisted of two RFDs, a gun range (singular) and a previous chair of another shooting body.
    Further restrications on rimfire pistols, I can assure you the SC prevented a total ban on .22 pistols, take that any way you want!
    They, as i pointed out yet AGAIN, called for harsher restrictions in terms of what you could license in 22lr (pistols). Again its on their website right now. Go look. Thankfully nothing came of their proposal for further restrictions.
    And as for attacks on shooting sports remember SC was a group of affiliated shooting associations, nothing was done on their own volition but in concensus.
    Nope.

    They attacked semi auto rifles, 22lr pistols and while their mouth was warm they took a crack at banning night shooting.
    You may wish to try to rewrite the past but we are where we are
    Deflection doesn't work on me.

    The so called sports coalition have all these proposals on THEIR WEBSITE. So if you don't believe me just go read their website.
    No S/A rifle Bans
    not for the want of trying by the sc.

    Funny that within 6 months of the proposal by the so called sports caolition the Minister made her statement in the Dáil regarding her intention to ban semi auto rifles from that date on. Odd that, i mean its like something or someone gave her the idea that the shooting community would be behind such a move, you know, via a proposal they submitted, that is still on their website.

    Am i being too subtle here?
    .22 Pistols licenced when members of a recognised club
    Again not for the want of trying by the sc who propsed to further restrict 22lr pistols by barrel length and design. Again on their website.
    Can't see any attacks on other aspects of shooting sport evident.
    They attempted to ban night time shooting. I mean when you have hunt sabs like Tierney praising you, you know you've done messed up. Link above. In case the link is too much trouble i'll try pictures:

    417671.JPG
    No doubt my response will attacks a hail of abuse!
    Not abuse, facts.

    You see real facts are links to websites, quotes from articles/persons involved and documented evidence. NOT writing the word "Fact:" before stating something.

    As with the substitution issue you have fallen so far short of reaching a point as to be ignored completely. I don't know who is feeding you your information or where you're getting it from but start by reading the so called sports coalitions website. Its there in black and white. They never denied they done these things so why do you?
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



  • #101
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,077 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    smmember20 wrote: »
    Firearms United Network Ireland

    So what did they publish after the meeting, if the PRO is all knowing then why am I being quizzed.

    Can I ask where are they now and who actually is a member?

    Sorry it is easy to generate a name and a function but sustaining same is a real job!

    For your information... This is the Irish fledgeling branch of a registered EU NGO advisor & pressure group.
    https://firearms-united.com/de/fight-the-future/#
    https://firearms-united.com/de/
    https://www.facebook.com/FirearmsUnitedNetwork/?__xts__[0]=68.ARC1UGhKGh4s60zl05hixtoGhFJG38qfRHK42F_jDDMWQH9TiM0RCaoluMDbURd2keKYitDLd4A3kaHzyOY92t4TCM17iInkWAaM8pRgoSmyj9Np9Mrw76NodS_A4zI6InCv_JuC38MJQoG4tjhTwtNWs4JXc-cD8eTcQdCYAb4VKvgQePHNfGWxEHu3Vp7Uec0VGtDtMYLOKIaHU7Q8r-g9r-JQ6JstLdgjjwCvOKhZKIQHeeTSKs8CufWxFwAJY5UtekuN1UsiHX3TRxG2G1xDTiCoVXVDtIu2YVhXJB5jA4oNDtD9


    While we are about it...What organisation if any, do you represent here???
    And if you do repersent one what exactly did your lot do about those two points?...Asking for a friend.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Advertisement
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement