Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

man_no_plan · 13-05-2020 8:49pm

Millem wrote: »

The home ec journals have already been corrected by the SEC.

That's the point. It's either a fully estimated grade or it isn't.

If you take those marks and use them for 40% or whatever you only estimate the balance but a student in any other subject must be estimated on everything.

Out of interest, where did you hear the SEC were sending these projects back?

km79 · 13-05-2020 8:51pm

galaxual wrote: »

I'm absolutely mortified reading this thread.
I am a student, and I thought the idea was that the teachers give a professional estimate of what they think that specific student would have gotten in the leaving cert. Not looking at their summer and Christmas tests and basing it all off of those?

You probably should have read the FAQ info for students which has been available on the internet since the announcement so
Here you go I will save you having to look
https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2f07eb-leaving-cert-2020-information/#information-for-leaving-cert-students

Probably would have been quicker to find it than set up a boards account to let us know you were mortified that teachers would be basing their opinion on past exam results instead of ...............instead of what I am not sure?

History Queen · 13-05-2020 8:52pm

galaxual wrote: »

I'm absolutely mortified reading this thread.
I am a student, and I thought the idea was that the teachers give a professional estimate of what they think that specific student would have gotten in the leaving cert. Not looking at their summer and Christmas tests and basing it all off of those?

Well we have been asked to use available data to help us form our judgments. Going by the initial information shared with us, (we haven't got full guidance yet) we'll also be using professional judgement to put that data in context. Curious as to why you would be mortified at us using previous exam results and why you would prefer us to just come up with a number without using past results? Good to hear the student perspective.

man_no_plan · 13-05-2020 8:53pm

galaxual wrote: »

I'm absolutely mortified reading this thread.
I am a student, and I thought the idea was that the teachers give a professional estimate of what they think that specific student would have gotten in the leaving cert. Not looking at their summer and Christmas tests and basing it all off of those?

I don't think there's a need to be horrified. Teachers will estimate a grade but if it's not based on evidence it's just a guess, from thin air.

The whole point of assessment during school is to provide feedback to the teacher and student on progress to date. Looking at past performance is part of that.

I might as well give your grades now if you don't think that this should be part, and only part, of the process. Without that information an estimate is a guess, the estimate must rely on some data the teacher has.

The exact details will be available soon. The conversations here point to the fact that teachers want to get this right for their students.

man_no_plan · 13-05-2020 8:54pm

galaxual wrote: »

I'm absolutely mortified reading this thread.
I am a student, and I thought the idea was that the teachers give a professional estimate of what they think that specific student would have gotten in the leaving cert. Not looking at their summer and Christmas tests and basing it all off of those?

I don't think there's a need to be horrified. Teachers will estimate a grade but if it's not based on evidence it's just a guess, from thin air.

The whole point of assessment during school is to provide feedback to the teacher and student on progress to date. Looking at past performance is part of that.

I might as well give your grades now if you don't think that this should be part, and only part, of the process. Without that information an estimate is a guess, the estimate must rely on some data the teacher has.

The exact details will be available soon. The conversations here point to the fact that teachers want to get this right for their students.

r93kaey5p2izun · 13-05-2020 9:01pm

galaxual wrote: »

Idk... maybe the student's abilities and intelligence?

I have read that. I just hope none of my teachers are like the ones on here.
I hope my teachers know the type of student I am, and will grade me accordingly.

Your teachers will follow the guidelines and will have no input into the guidelines. Lobby the Minister or your local TD if you want teacher professional judgement not necessarily backed up by evidence to be the main factor in deciding your grade. At the moment the loudest voices (like the ones who called for predicted grades) are those denigrating teacher capabilities and professionalism, and insisting on access to concrete evidence of where the grade came from in order to launch a legal appeal.

History Queen · 13-05-2020 9:01pm

galaxual wrote: »

Idk... maybe the student's abilities and intelligence?

I have read that. I just hope none of my teachers are like the ones on here.
I hope my teachers know the type of student I am, and will grade me accordingly.

I'm sure they do. Don't worry about something you can't control. But I still don't understand why you wouldn't want them to use information from exams where your level of understanding was actually tested?

And I don't know what we have done to offend you. We're all hoping to do the best for our students using a flawed system that has been forced on us.

Millem · 13-05-2020 9:03pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

That's the point. It's either a fully estimated grade or it isn't.

If you take those marks and use them for 40% or whatever you only estimate the balance but a student in any other subject must be estimated on everything.

Out of interest, where did you hear the SEC were sending these projects back?

They are worth 20%.

Dylan94 · 13-05-2020 9:04pm

galaxual wrote: »

Idk... maybe the student's abilities and intelligence?

I have read that. I just hope none of my teachers are like the ones on here.
I hope my teachers know the type of student I am, and will grade me accordingly.

So you think that your teachers can give you an accurate grade, without thinking about your past grades? Based on what, your personality?

I predict some low grades coming

rainbowtrout · 13-05-2020 9:09pm

Ah lads ignore the troll, I've just had a PM from him spouting the same crap. It's probably LC2020 as a re-reg. Just report.

man_no_plan · 13-05-2020 9:17pm

Isn't it a poor reflection on the state of the Department of Education that we are almost a week out from the announcement (the announcement being in the Irish Times) and we still haven't a notion what is going on.

If they had to work all say Saturday and Sunday and until 11 or 12 at night until this was concluded that's what they should have done it seems like nobody is doing anything. It's shockingly poor.

Where is Malcolm Tucker when you need him, he could be quoted repeatedly at this stage.

skippy1977 · 13-05-2020 9:21pm

galaxual wrote: »

Idk... maybe the student's abilities and intelligence?

I have read that. I just hope none of my teachers are like the ones on here.
I hope my teachers know the type of student I am, and will grade me accordingly.

I had a student last year who was very able and intelligent. In fact I think they were one of the best Maths student's in the school, they got an A in the Junior Cert. They completely switched off for much of the senior cycle however and their results slipped way down below the average of the class. Going on their term tests, summer, Christmas etc their average was in the mid 50's and in the mock they scored in the 40's.

Their ability and intelligence WAS H1, H2....the results I had didn't back that up.
I am genuinely interested in what you would given them ...and if it was a H1 or H2 for their ability and intelligence...who of the other students in my class should I place them above....can you see the problem teachers have here...it sounds cold...but it's an impossible situation...like of course you want the teachers to grade you on your intelligence and ability...I'm assuming you are quite intelligent and able...I'm also guessing you work and that your results somewhat reflect this ability?? The majority of teachers will see this....but if you have failed every exam in 5th and 6th year do you want your teacher to grade you on your Drumcondra Test...

...btw the girl got a H6.....but it could easily have gone the other way and she could have scored much higher. There is no right answer to this...

man_no_plan · 13-05-2020 9:22pm

galaxual wrote: »

Calling me a 'troll' for voicing my concerns.
And these are the people deciding our grades... what a shambles

I think you're being called a troll because that's the post you respond to rather than the ones addressing your issue.

If you want to be taken seriously you have to engage with the responses rather than just complain about it.

Anyway, voicing your concerns on here is about as much use to you as lighting candles. Look how many teachers have been voicing concerns here for weeks and to in avail. You are unlikely to be heard. Call the ISSU they represent all students, apparently.

twomonkeys · 13-05-2020 9:22pm

galaxual wrote: »

Idk... maybe the student's abilities and intelligence?

I have read that. I just hope none of my teachers are like the ones on here.
I hope my teachers know the type of student I am, and will grade me accordingly.

What on earth do you think the teacher uses to know your “abilities and intelligence” in the first place??? Of course they use past exams and tests to figure this out.

Millem · 13-05-2020 9:25pm

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Do they have to be recorrected cos the SEC isn't getting involved in grading?

No. I heard they are apparently getting sorted out as we speak and should be at schools sometime next week. The marks will be on them.

Comer1 · 13-05-2020 9:45pm

Millem wrote: »

No. I heard they are apparently getting sorted out as we speak and should be at schools sometime next week. The marks will be on them.

Source for this information?

joebloggs32 · 13-05-2020 10:18pm

Comer1 wrote: »

Source for this information?

I also have heard that they will be sent back to the schools.

joebloggs32 · 13-05-2020 10:24pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ah lads ignore the troll, I've just had a PM from him spouting the same crap. It's probably LC2020 as a re-reg. Just report.

I got blocked on Twitter by LC2020 for having the temerity to hold a point of view contrary to theirs.
It was the first time anyone blocked me since I joined 9 years ago!

If we were not to look at past results to help predict future results we may aswell roll out a lottery machine and draw the grades out of that.
I know there is context to with some results. For instance I had one guy score H1 or H2 across all exams bar 1 where he got H5. However he was out sick for over two weeks before that exam, so my professional judgement would say to ignore the outlier.

Treppen · 13-05-2020 11:17pm

galaxual wrote: »

I'm absolutely mortified reading this thread.
I am a student, and I thought the idea was that the teachers give a professional estimate of what they think that specific student would have gotten in the leaving cert. Not looking at their summer and Christmas tests and basing it all off of those?

Well you're in luck buddy.

Under the data protection act i assume you can prevent schools from using your data, as the nature of it's use has changed from what was originally agreed.

Here's what the department of Education Says about data protection. It's pretty standard and would apply to any business or school i would Imagine! (I have zero legal training except having watched Jake and the Fatman in the 1980's )

4.2 Personal data can only be collected for specific, explicit and legitimate
purposes
.
The Department will collect and process personal data only for the purposes for which it is collected and purposes which are compatible with those purposes. The Department staff must be alert to requests for processing of personal data for purposes for which it was not collected, no matter how related the processing may appear. Processing should only continue after an assessment of the impact of the new processing. This assessment may be done as a data protection impact assessment, please see section 6.6 below.

https://www.education.ie/en/The-Department/Data-Protection/data-protection-policy.pdf

Down to the 6.6 they refer to...

6.6 Data protection impact assessments
The Department will implement procedures and documentation whereby all new types of processing, in particular using new technologies, that result in a high risk to the rights and freedoms of its data subjects shall carry out a data protection impact assessment. As part of this process, a copy of the impact assessment shall be shared with the Department’s’ Data Protection Officer.
Where the Department is unable to identify measures that mitigate the high
risks identified then the Department will consult with the Data Protection
Commissioner prior to the commencement of processing.

This could be classed as a "high Risk to the rights and freedoms of " you.
Also they will be taking your grades and doing "new types of processing" by placing them against other data (school past performance, national norms etc.)

Did the Department "carry out a data protection impact assessment. As part of this process, a copy of the impact assessment shall be shared with the Department’s’ Data Protection Officer."

It would come under GDPR too but I ain't got no time for that.

r93kaey5p2izun · 13-05-2020 11:26pm

I think the calculated grades is an opt in process - presumably permission to use attainment data held for that purpose will be part of the opting in procedure?

Treppen · 13-05-2020 11:33pm

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

I think the calculated grades is an opt in process - presumably permission to use attainment data held for that purpose will be part of the opting in procedure?

Good point.
So schools would have to ask for permission before going ahead and sending away any grades to the Department?

Would that consent then be automatically carried over to the Department? Or maybe if you want your grade you have to accept the Terms and Conditions first!

r93kaey5p2izun · 13-05-2020 11:38pm

Treppen wrote: »

Good point.
So schools would have to ask for permission before going ahead and sending away any grades to the Department?

Would that consent then be automatically carried over to the Department? Or maybe if you want your grade you have to accept the Terms and Conditions first!

I assume it will be part of the centralised mechanism for confirming your level. If you participate in that process you will be agreeing to the calculated grades model and the use of your data as laid out in the guidelines.

Comer1 · 14-05-2020 10:35am

joebloggs32 wrote: »

I also have heard that they will be sent back to the schools.

I really would like to see a source for this.

If SEC can have no part in this, then any marking that they have done cannot be used in the predictive grading process.

What of students who opt out of the predictive grading process in favour of waiting to sit the exams, is it going to be possible to filter out their project work so that it won't be returned to schools.

What about students who decide to sit the exams if not happy with their predicted grades? Surely the SEC would not accept those projects being sent back again?

Sending back project work to the school seems very messy and I'd be surprised to see it happen, but then anything is possible with the way this is being run.

km79 · 14-05-2020 10:41am

Comer1 wrote: »

I really would like to see a source for this.

If SEC can have no part in this, then any marking that they have done cannot be used in the predictive grading process.

What of students who opt out of the predictive grading process in favour of waiting to sit the exams, is it going to be possible to filter out their project work so that it won't be returned to schools.

What about students who decide to sit the exams if not happy with their predicted grades? Surely the SEC would not accept those projects being sent back again?

Sending back project work to the school seems very messy and I'd be surprised to see it happen, but then anything is possible with the way this is being run.

This is the second time I’ve seen reference to students opting out of predictive grading
Have I missed something?
I understood we were doing it for all students ?
And if they are not happy they will opt in for exams ?
Not sure why any student would opt out for predictive Mark if it is an option
It’s a free hit for them

Comer1 · 14-05-2020 10:56am

km79 wrote: »

This is the second time I’ve seen reference to students opting out of predictive grading
Have I missed something?
I understood we were doing it for all students ?
And if they are not happy they will opt in for exams ?
Not sure why any student would opt out for predictive Mark if it is an option
It’s a free hit for them

I can't give a source or confirm that it's true. Our principal said it during an online staff meeting yesterday.

I don't know why a student would opt out as they can sit the exam after and accept the better of the two grades.

rainbowtrout · 14-05-2020 11:33am

Comer1 wrote: »

I really would like to see a source for this.

If SEC can have no part in this, then any marking that they have done cannot be used in the predictive grading process.

What of students who opt out of the predictive grading process in favour of waiting to sit the exams, is it going to be possible to filter out their project work so that it won't be returned to schools.

What about students who decide to sit the exams if not happy with their predicted grades? Surely the SEC would not accept those projects being sent back again?

Sending back project work to the school seems very messy and I'd be surprised to see it happen, but then anything is possible with the way this is being run.

They couldn't send them back if there is to be an appeals process for any student that sits the exam. I don't know if the Home Ec projects can be appealed, but I'm presuming they can given that they are sent away to be marked.

rainbowtrout · 14-05-2020 11:36am

Comer1 wrote: »

I can't give a source or confirm that it's true. Our principal said it during an online staff meeting yesterday.

I don't know why a student would opt out as they can sit the exam after and accept the better of the two grades.

To be honest, I think there's quite a few principals going on solo runs over all of this. Rather than just saying to their staff 'I don't have an answer to that, I'll ask, or wait until we get more guidance' they are just making stuff up.

amacca · 14-05-2020 12:35pm

Anyone think schools might be dealing with a big increase in Leaving Cert students asking to repeat 6th yr.

History Queen · 14-05-2020 12:40pm

amacca wrote: »

Anyone think schools might be dealing with a big increase in Leaving Cert students asking to repeat 6th yr.

Possibly, but if that happens there'll be much more competition for places in college next year which will make points inflate and lead to even more disappointment and disadvantage.

wirelessdude01 · 14-05-2020 12:47pm

amacca wrote: »

Anyone think schools might be dealing with a big increase in Leaving Cert students asking to repeat 6th yr.

Think that is a dead cert.

Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

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