Best air to water heat pump

ivorfa · 07-02-2019 8:12pm

Hi im in north Donegal built an ICF house about five years ago house is highly insulated built it on an insulated floating slab, triple glazed windows and velux is quadruple glazed attic is spray foamed. all the usual windows taped and airtightness membrane Have underfloor downstairs and upstairs underfloor heating has never come on upstairs since i moved in . Downstairs sits at 22deg upstairs 21 Average electricity bill is 120 euro that includes heating ,hot water and all the usual things oven tv fridge freezer etc would highly recommend air to water in a highly insulated house never had a days problem with it

Water John · 07-02-2019 8:31pm

That's really good. Putting UFH upstairs is probably not needed on a good airtight build. A few alu rads if you wanted insurance.

ivorfa · 07-02-2019 8:36pm

yeah if doing it again i wouldnt put any heating upstairs but you learn these things, but wouldnt change anything else

Borderbuster · 08-02-2019 9:38am

ivorfa wrote: »

Hi im in north Donegal built an ICF house about five years ago house is highly insulated built it on an insulated floating slab, triple glazed windows and velux is quadruple glazed attic is spray foamed. all the usual windows taped and airtightness membrane Have underfloor downstairs and upstairs underfloor heating has never come on upstairs since i moved in . Downstairs sits at 22deg upstairs 21 Average electricity bill is 120 euro that includes heating ,hot water and all the usual things oven tv fridge freezer etc would highly recommend air to water in a highly insulated house never had a days problem with it

thanks Ivor, information like this helps.
Is that 120 euro a month or 2 months?
Also, what make of heat pump did you go for? there are so many of them.
Do you miss the oil? the quick blast of heat? Id imagine North Donegal would be a bit colder.
that's a good tip about no UFH required for upstairs, I must price the aluminium rads.
yea house is going to be A3, a lot of money will be spent in insulation, 200mm cavity etc.
if I go for the heat pump, I will make provisions for future PV panel installation. the back of the house is facing South-South east.
what about the Mechanical Heat Recovery System?
thanks

ivorfa · 08-02-2019 2:48pm

That 120 euro is for two months,i wouldnt even bother wilh radiators a small heater would do on the very coldest of nights and i never even had to use any heating upstairs yet so wouldnt waste my money. The heat pump i used is by the name Waterkotte its a german brand and was supplied and fitted by a company called Nutherm and i highly recommend both heat pump and company that fitted it, i have no connection with either so not trying to sway you thats just my opinion should you need any more information or anyone wants to see my system feel free to message me and no dont miss oil at all lovely having a constant heat day and night and not coming home to a cold house, I also have mhrs def needed in an airtight house hadnt it running for the first few weeks but when it was it made such a difference house always seems fresh, all my windows are sealed except for bedrooms which i needed to open for fire regulations dont see the point in windows opening when you have mhrs and to date its working perfectly well

KCross · 08-02-2019 3:28pm

ivorfa wrote: »

That 120 euro is for two months

Any chance thats an estimated bill?

€120 sounds too good to be true for 2 months, considering that about €55 of that would be standing charge and PSO Levy which means you are only using a little over €1 a day in electricity to run the house. Thats quite low regardless of having a HP or not.

Water John · 08-02-2019 3:51pm

Def need the MHRV in a build such as yours.
A2W and UFH works totally different to oil. The house is kept at regular temp, all the time.

Borderbuster · 08-02-2019 4:03pm

Water John wrote: »

Def need the MHRV in a build such as yours.
A2W and UFH works totally different to oil. The house is kept at regular temp, all the time.

Water John, I wonder what the monthly average ESB bill would be.

Do you have one?

Water John · 08-02-2019 4:13pm

No, 1990 house that needs to be sealed, but worked in supplying the trade. Under €500 annual running cost if the job is done right.

ivorfa · 08-02-2019 10:52pm

just a wee rundown of my bills may -jul 127 euro
july-sept 121 euro
sept-nov 116
nov -jan 194
nov to jan only expensive one but that includes xmas oven never stopped these prices include everything vat etc and are readings not estimated

Borderbuster · 11-02-2019 9:45am

ivorfa wrote: »

just a wee rundown of my bills may -jul 127 euro
july-sept 121 euro
sept-nov 116
nov -jan 194
nov to jan only expensive one but that includes xmas oven never stopped these prices include everything vat etc and are readings not estimated

that's impressive indeed, considering for Nov - Jan, you had no additional oil bill. I reckon that bill could have been reduced further if you had PV panels too.

dots104 · 11-02-2019 12:19pm

Anyone have any experience with the Daikin Altherma - EAVH-D9WG. Looks like a nice neat solution with Integrated with domestic hot water.

ivorfa · 11-02-2019 4:38pm

I had considered pv panels but the money i would save i dont think i could justify the outlay and the payback prob to long things may change in the future as im thinking down the road of an electric car so that may change things

unkel · 14-02-2019 12:35am

ivorfa wrote: »

I had considered pv panels but the money i would save i dont think i could justify the outlay and the payback prob to long things may change in the future as im thinking down the road of an electric car so that may change things

Panels have just got very, very cheap. If you install a small system DIY and you buy your parts carefully, your payback time will be short

I have solar thermal (for heating the water), an EV as the only family car and I have gone from a small 600wp system fully DIY this time last year to a DIY 1.6kwp system last summer to a 3.8kwp system now (with the help of a roofer and an electrician)

Maria0680 · 14-02-2019 12:57pm

I too searching for the same kind of product. Any suggestion would be appreciated. Thanks,

Borderbuster · 14-02-2019 3:15pm

unkel wrote: »

Panels have just got very, very cheap. If you install a small system DIY and you buy your parts carefully, your payback time will be short

I have solar thermal (for heating the water), an EV as the only family car and I have gone from a small 600wp system fully DIY this time last year to a DIY 1.6kwp system last summer to a 3.8kwp system now (with the help of a roofer and an electrician)

can you not get a combo Panel that provides both Electrical and Solar energy? I would be wondering about having the space on the roof for all these panels.
Are free standing panels any good?

Water John · 14-02-2019 5:24pm

There is no diff between having panels on a roof or on the ground. Angle and direction are what are important.

sweet 78 · 18-08-2019 10:32pm

Just looking for information

I have a 12kw Panasonic inverter air to water heat pump.
Running on night rate but would like have with water on demand
Anybody have any idea what is the best way to run this my Bill's are fine so no problem there
I have 3 stats 300 litre tank that is time for 2 hours running at night and
Immersion to top it up
If anybody has advise could you please share

Coltrane · 19-08-2019 1:00pm

I’ve a 12kW NIBE 2040 (A2W) and am very happy with it.

Many warned me against because the house has a period section which is not all that well insulated (double glazed, dry lined ceilings/walls upstairs, insulated attic, insulated floor with UFH but uninsulated period brick facades) but so far so good (installation last summer, no shockingly high bills through the very cold winter).

One disappointment has been NIBE’s awful execution of the interaction with solar PV. They sell an accessory called an EME10 which is supposed to activate the HP when there’s enough sun. But it doesn’t work. So for now I’ve no way to use the cylinder or UFH as capacitors/batteries for surplus solar.

Noise from the fan can also be an issue on very cold nights if you place it near to bedroom windows.

Mr Q · 21-08-2019 10:59am

Coltrane wrote: »

I’ve a 12kW NIBE 2040 (A2W) and am very happy with it.

Many warned me against because the house has a period section which is not all that well insulated (double glazed, dry lined ceilings/walls upstairs, insulated attic, insulated floor with UFH but uninsulated period brick facades) but so far so good (installation last summer, no shockingly high bills through the very cold winter).

One disappointment has been NIBE’s awful execution of the interaction with solar PV. They sell an accessory called an EME10 which is supposed to activate the HP when there’s enough sun. But it doesn’t work. So for now I’ve no way to use the cylinder or UFH as capacitors/batteries for surplus solar.

Noise from the fan can also be an issue on very cold nights if you place it near to bedroom windows.

I also have a NIBE F2040 but an 8kw model. Have been looking into an EME to install with solar PV shortly, is it really that bad? The manual does state the first excess 1kw from the PV wont be used by the pump which makes no sense.

Also one issue i find with the NIBE is it uses 70 watts at all times even when not heating the house or DHW. Not impressive for something that is supposed to save energy.

Coltrane · 21-08-2019 2:01pm

Mr Q wrote: »

I also have a NIBE F2040 but an 8kw model. Have been looking into an EME to install with solar PV shortly, is it really that bad? The manual does state the first excess 1kw from the PV wont be used by the pump which makes no sense.

Also one issue i find with the NIBE is it uses 70 watts at all times even when not heating the house or DHW. Not impressive for something that is supposed to save energy.

My EME10 doesn't work at all, even at surpluses far higher than 1kW. I've a 5kWp array, frequently with surpluses of more than 3kW and the EME10 never kicks in. As I understood this is a 'known issue' at NIBE, as well as their Irish distributor (someone there told me he himself had been unable to get one to activate until about...6kW).

I don't have the same 70-Watt leakage, though.

randombar · 21-08-2019 2:34pm

Are prices of these coming down? Trying to figure out the ROI and it is still ridiculous. Even for a well insulated house.

7700kwh per year costing me €750 in Kerosene

Would save maybe €350 per year with HP.

Mr Q · 21-08-2019 3:13pm

Coltrane wrote: »

My EME10 doesn't work at all, even at surpluses far higher than 1kW. I've a 5kWp array, frequently with surpluses of more than 3kW and the EME10 never kicks in. As I understood this is a 'known issue' at NIBE, as well as their Irish distributor (someone there told me he himself had been unable to get one to activate until about...6kW).

I don't have the same 70-Watt leakage, though.

Even if i turn off the indoor unit on the front it is using about 45 watts. Do you have a VVM indoor unit?

Coltrane · 21-08-2019 3:35pm

Mr Q wrote: »

Even if i turn off the indoor unit on the front it is using about 45 watts. Do you have a VVM indoor unit?

Yes I have the VVM320 too. The combined always-on wattage between the 320 and the 2040 is maybe 20W. (Haven't checked in a while but do know that the 24-hour average always-on for the entire house is 52W).

Coltrane · 21-08-2019 3:48pm

GaryCocs wrote: »

Are prices of these coming down? Trying to figure out the ROI and it is still ridiculous. Even for a well insulated house.

7700kwh per year costing me €750 in Kerosene

Would save maybe €350 per year with HP.

You are absolutely right, they are extremely expensive. I'm not aware that prices are falling.

The SEAI grant is very hard to qualify for. My house fell short of their target even though I threw every insulating etc measure I could at it, short of insulating period facades/dry-lining into period coving. An installer told me that only six people in Ireland got the grant last year.

I do think you should factor the environmental damage of kerosene, though. You could wait for the state to increase tax on it, perhaps when it's too late to address climate change, or you could make a stab at estimating the cost to you of remediating the climate in future years.

I never fully got - and this is probably my fault - the point that HPs should only be used in well insulated houses. I get it that they work most efficiently at lower temperatures, and that uninsulated buildings need hotter burns to maintain comfort but that hasn't been an issue in my house which has 'good for a period house' levels of insulation etc. When I see such powerful and expensive heat sources being put into A-rated houses I do question the need. Passive houses can they say be heated with toasters!

MOTM · 22-08-2019 2:44pm

Coltrane wrote: »

The SEAI grant is very hard to qualify for. My house fell short of their target even though I threw every insulating etc measure I could at it, short of insulating period facades/dry-lining into period coving. An installer told me that only six people in Ireland got the grant last year.

While the target is tight, it is there for a reason. And there are a lot of houses ready to go:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_housing_planning_and_local_government/2019-05-15/3/

"Approximately 300,000 homes are heat pump ready as to their fabric. They do not have to do a deeper retrofit of their windows, walls or attics. They are ready to go."

randombar · 22-08-2019 3:14pm

MOTM wrote: »

While the target is tight, it is there for a reason. And there are a lot of houses ready to go:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_housing_planning_and_local_government/2019-05-15/3/

"Approximately 300,000 homes are heat pump ready as to their fabric. They do not have to do a deeper retrofit of their windows, walls or attics. They are ready to go."

But if the houses are so well insulated the heating costs are low irrespective of the source, so HP is saving less and less against other sources. Even with the grant you're still talking 7k for the heat pump. Condensing boiler is maybe 2.5k and probably would last longer. 4.5k is a big sum to try and recover.

Obviously I understand the environmental side of it but there are better more cost effective ways of doing your bit for the environment, PV, EV etc.

MOTM · 22-08-2019 3:29pm

GaryCocs wrote: »

But if the houses are so well insulated the heating costs are low irrespective of the source, so HP is saving less and less against other sources. Even with the grant you're still talking 7k for the heat pump. Condensing boiler is maybe 2.5k and probably would last longer. 4.5k is a big sum to try and recover.

Obviously I understand the environmental side of it but there are better more cost effective ways of doing your bit for the environment, PV, EV etc.

The market won't stay as is though. Fossil fuels are currently very cheap, and carbon tax is minimal. That won't last forever and the heat pump option starts to look more attractive when fuel costs ramp up. Neither will the current heat pump subsidy last forever. And that's before we even talk about potential ban of oil/gas boiler installation in the next decade and you have to move to heat pump or something else (wood fuels? Euuughhh).

I find it hard to see how PV can currently be cost effective without installing a battery given the lack of a microgen tariff. And the only EV's worthwhile at the moment (i.e. adequate range) ain't even remotely affordable for most people and certainly cost a hell of a lot more than a heat pump.

randombar · 22-08-2019 3:41pm

MOTM wrote: »

The market won't stay as is though. Fossil fuels are currently very cheap, and carbon tax is minimal. That won't last forever and the heat pump option starts to look more attractive when fuel costs ramp up. Neither will the current heat pump subsidy last forever. And that's before we even talk about potential ban of oil/gas boiler installation in the next decade and you have to move to heat pump or something else (wood fuels? Euuughhh).

I find it hard to see how PV can currently be cost effective without installing a battery given the lack of a microgen tariff. And the only EV's worthwhile at the moment (i.e. adequate range) ain't even remotely affordable for most people and certainly cost a hell of a lot more than a heat pump.

Rough figures for me were:

4kw array with 2.4kwh battery for 4k (great deal), saving 400py approx (ROI of 10 yrs)
161 24kwh leaf 11k from UK, saving 1200 py on petrol costs, 400 py on tax
(ROI of 6.8 yrs)
All depends on circumstances I know.

Coltrane · 22-08-2019 4:20pm

GaryCocs wrote: »

Rough figures for me were:

4kw array with 2.4kwh battery for 4k (great deal), saving 400py approx (ROI of 10 yrs).

Looks like a great quote.

Best air to water heat pump

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