Best air to water heat pump

air

The SEAI publish a fairly comprehensive fuel price comparison pdf each year, they may have them archived somewhere for download.
Failing that the CER website would be a good place to look.
Aside from the potential cost benefits, a heat pump would eliminate any risk of fuel oil theft or leakage. It also lets you get rid of the tank and eliminates fuel deliveries.
Obviously one of the biggest downsides is lack of heating in a power outage!

Latro

air wrote: »

Obviously one of the biggest downsides is lack of heating in a power outage!

Same as with oil,gas or even backboiler stove.

air

Latro wrote: »

Same as with oil,gas or even backboiler stove.

True, but a lot easier/cheaper to run any of those in an outage than a heat pump

Latro

air wrote: »

True, but a lot easier/cheaper to run any of those in an outage than a heat pump

I don't have a generator and I suspect that you don't have one either same as 99% of home owners.

air

Getting totally OT, but you suspect wrong. I have at least 4 different fully independent ways I could keep my CH going in an outage.
It would be almost trivial to keep a CH circulation pump and oil or gas boiler going in an outage with a 12V battery and inverter for anyone with a bit of know how.
A heat pump is realistically going to require a very large generator or the grid.
I'm very much pro heat pumps regardless, for the record.

Mack05

Hi all ‘still’ Looking to invest in a Air to Water unit and have been recommended to go for the Thermodynamic Solar Panels with the Air to Water unit,
Has anyone any advice, recommendations or prices on these systems?
Thanks.

Water John

Be sure to fit MHRV, cost €5K approx. A friend of mine put it in, even didn't put an extractor on the cooker, not sure I would do that, but the healthy fresh air feel is worth the money. That and the A2W with a split dual heating system is what I would use. Wouldn't bother with panels.

Mack05

Water John wrote: »

Be sure to fit MHRV, cost €5K approx. A friend of mine put it in, even didn't put an extractor on the cooker, not sure I would do that, but the healthy fresh air feel is worth the money. That and the A2W with a split dual heating system is what I would use. Wouldn't bother with panels.

Built the house in 2006 with holicore so I don’t think the MHRV is an option,
Was told the Thermodynamic Solar Panels would be cheaper to run during the summer for Hot Water, instead of using the Air to Water as the Heating is not needed because the house is so well insulated.

Water John

The saving on hot water from solar panels is in the order of €170/year. The capital cost don't justify them. They in fact don't have a lifetime payback.

Borderbuster

ArraMusha wrote: »

I'm in a new house for over a year now, and i used to read these forums for advice, so I'll pass on my experiences.
We have a heat pump and MHRV.
It was a huge decision at the time, ie. to go oil and PV or a heatpump and I can say now that I was most amazed by the thermal efficiency of the house( insulation and air tightness) built to modern building regs. The heatpump is set to come on during nightrate, so its off during the day. In Feb or march 2018 when we had the snow, it was below zero outside all day, the kitchen temp. was 21C at 8am and never dropped a degree all day!!!
The max electricity bill for all zone heating including domestic hot water and all other electicity was €180 for two months (during that cold spell). So go with the best insulation you can afford, 200mm cavity is what I have, the best air tightness your builder (or yourself) are capable of installing, and a good quality heatpump model (with local support). Think of the 20 year overall cost..(up front capital + running cost) and enjoy the warmth 24/7.

Hi Arramusha, great honest assessment. im at the exact same stage as you were at, initially. Is the heat pump still going well?
what model did you go for?
whats your average esb bill?

my head is wrecked as to go for a air-source heat pump or solar & oil. My house is currently being built. Im at the slab stage so I need to make up my mind in the next few months.
Its spec'd for ber A3 rating. 200 mm cavity, beads filled. getting air tightness test etc.
its going to be a modern house, but im still of the mindset 'what no oil??, no radiators??'
heads wrecked.
Advise would be appreciated. Ive been to viewing houses with the system already in, but the 2 houses I have viewed - they were associated with the installer so a bit biased.

House in North Monaghan.

thanks

ivorfa

Hi im in north Donegal built an ICF house about five years ago house is highly insulated built it on an insulated floating slab, triple glazed windows and velux is quadruple glazed attic is spray foamed. all the usual windows taped and airtightness membrane Have underfloor downstairs and upstairs underfloor heating has never come on upstairs since i moved in . Downstairs sits at 22deg upstairs 21 Average electricity bill is 120 euro that includes heating ,hot water and all the usual things oven tv fridge freezer etc would highly recommend air to water in a highly insulated house never had a days problem with it

Water John

That's really good. Putting UFH upstairs is probably not needed on a good airtight build. A few alu rads if you wanted insurance.

ivorfa

yeah if doing it again i wouldnt put any heating upstairs but you learn these things, but wouldnt change anything else

Borderbuster

ivorfa wrote: »

Hi im in north Donegal built an ICF house about five years ago house is highly insulated built it on an insulated floating slab, triple glazed windows and velux is quadruple glazed attic is spray foamed. all the usual windows taped and airtightness membrane Have underfloor downstairs and upstairs underfloor heating has never come on upstairs since i moved in . Downstairs sits at 22deg upstairs 21 Average electricity bill is 120 euro that includes heating ,hot water and all the usual things oven tv fridge freezer etc would highly recommend air to water in a highly insulated house never had a days problem with it

thanks Ivor, information like this helps.
Is that 120 euro a month or 2 months?
Also, what make of heat pump did you go for? there are so many of them.
Do you miss the oil? the quick blast of heat? Id imagine North Donegal would be a bit colder.
that's a good tip about no UFH required for upstairs, I must price the aluminium rads.
yea house is going to be A3, a lot of money will be spent in insulation, 200mm cavity etc.
if I go for the heat pump, I will make provisions for future PV panel installation. the back of the house is facing South-South east.
what about the Mechanical Heat Recovery System?
thanks

ivorfa

That 120 euro is for two months,i wouldnt even bother wilh radiators a small heater would do on the very coldest of nights and i never even had to use any heating upstairs yet so wouldnt waste my money. The heat pump i used is by the name Waterkotte its a german brand and was supplied and fitted by a company called Nutherm and i highly recommend both heat pump and company that fitted it, i have no connection with either so not trying to sway you thats just my opinion should you need any more information or anyone wants to see my system feel free to message me and no dont miss oil at all lovely having a constant heat day and night and not coming home to a cold house, I also have mhrs def needed in an airtight house hadnt it running for the first few weeks but when it was it made such a difference house always seems fresh, all my windows are sealed except for bedrooms which i needed to open for fire regulations dont see the point in windows opening when you have mhrs and to date its working perfectly well

KCross

ivorfa wrote: »

That 120 euro is for two months

Any chance thats an estimated bill?

€120 sounds too good to be true for 2 months, considering that about €55 of that would be standing charge and PSO Levy which means you are only using a little over €1 a day in electricity to run the house. Thats quite low regardless of having a HP or not.

Water John

Def need the MHRV in a build such as yours.
A2W and UFH works totally different to oil. The house is kept at regular temp, all the time.

Borderbuster

Water John wrote: »

Def need the MHRV in a build such as yours.
A2W and UFH works totally different to oil. The house is kept at regular temp, all the time.

Water John, I wonder what the monthly average ESB bill would be.

Do you have one?

Water John

No, 1990 house that needs to be sealed, but worked in supplying the trade. Under €500 annual running cost if the job is done right.

ivorfa

just a wee rundown of my bills may -jul 127 euro
july-sept 121 euro
sept-nov 116
nov -jan 194
nov to jan only expensive one but that includes xmas oven never stopped these prices include everything vat etc and are readings not estimated

Borderbuster

ivorfa wrote: »

just a wee rundown of my bills may -jul 127 euro
july-sept 121 euro
sept-nov 116
nov -jan 194
nov to jan only expensive one but that includes xmas oven never stopped these prices include everything vat etc and are readings not estimated

that's impressive indeed, considering for Nov - Jan, you had no additional oil bill. I reckon that bill could have been reduced further if you had PV panels too.

dots104

Anyone have any experience with the Daikin Altherma - EAVH-D9WG. Looks like a nice neat solution with Integrated with domestic hot water.

ivorfa

I had considered pv panels but the money i would save i dont think i could justify the outlay and the payback prob to long things may change in the future as im thinking down the road of an electric car so that may change things

unkel

ivorfa wrote: »

I had considered pv panels but the money i would save i dont think i could justify the outlay and the payback prob to long things may change in the future as im thinking down the road of an electric car so that may change things

Panels have just got very, very cheap. If you install a small system DIY and you buy your parts carefully, your payback time will be short

I have solar thermal (for heating the water), an EV as the only family car and I have gone from a small 600wp system fully DIY this time last year to a DIY 1.6kwp system last summer to a 3.8kwp system now (with the help of a roofer and an electrician)

Maria0680

I too searching for the same kind of product. Any suggestion would be appreciated. Thanks,

Borderbuster

unkel wrote: »

Panels have just got very, very cheap. If you install a small system DIY and you buy your parts carefully, your payback time will be short

I have solar thermal (for heating the water), an EV as the only family car and I have gone from a small 600wp system fully DIY this time last year to a DIY 1.6kwp system last summer to a 3.8kwp system now (with the help of a roofer and an electrician)

can you not get a combo Panel that provides both Electrical and Solar energy? I would be wondering about having the space on the roof for all these panels.
Are free standing panels any good?

Water John

There is no diff between having panels on a roof or on the ground. Angle and direction are what are important.

sweet 78

Just looking for information

I have a 12kw Panasonic inverter air to water heat pump.
Running on night rate but would like have with water on demand
Anybody have any idea what is the best way to run this my Bill's are fine so no problem there
I have 3 stats 300 litre tank that is time for 2 hours running at night and
Immersion to top it up
If anybody has advise could you please share

Coltrane

I’ve a 12kW NIBE 2040 (A2W) and am very happy with it.

Many warned me against because the house has a period section which is not all that well insulated (double glazed, dry lined ceilings/walls upstairs, insulated attic, insulated floor with UFH but uninsulated period brick facades) but so far so good (installation last summer, no shockingly high bills through the very cold winter).

One disappointment has been NIBE’s awful execution of the interaction with solar PV. They sell an accessory called an EME10 which is supposed to activate the HP when there’s enough sun. But it doesn’t work. So for now I’ve no way to use the cylinder or UFH as capacitors/batteries for surplus solar.

Noise from the fan can also be an issue on very cold nights if you place it near to bedroom windows.

Mr Q

Coltrane wrote: »

I’ve a 12kW NIBE 2040 (A2W) and am very happy with it.

Many warned me against because the house has a period section which is not all that well insulated (double glazed, dry lined ceilings/walls upstairs, insulated attic, insulated floor with UFH but uninsulated period brick facades) but so far so good (installation last summer, no shockingly high bills through the very cold winter).

One disappointment has been NIBE’s awful execution of the interaction with solar PV. They sell an accessory called an EME10 which is supposed to activate the HP when there’s enough sun. But it doesn’t work. So for now I’ve no way to use the cylinder or UFH as capacitors/batteries for surplus solar.

Noise from the fan can also be an issue on very cold nights if you place it near to bedroom windows.

I also have a NIBE F2040 but an 8kw model. Have been looking into an EME to install with solar PV shortly, is it really that bad? The manual does state the first excess 1kw from the PV wont be used by the pump which makes no sense.

Also one issue i find with the NIBE is it uses 70 watts at all times even when not heating the house or DHW. Not impressive for something that is supposed to save energy.

Coltrane

Mr Q wrote: »

I also have a NIBE F2040 but an 8kw model. Have been looking into an EME to install with solar PV shortly, is it really that bad? The manual does state the first excess 1kw from the PV wont be used by the pump which makes no sense.

Also one issue i find with the NIBE is it uses 70 watts at all times even when not heating the house or DHW. Not impressive for something that is supposed to save energy.

My EME10 doesn't work at all, even at surpluses far higher than 1kW. I've a 5kWp array, frequently with surpluses of more than 3kW and the EME10 never kicks in. As I understood this is a 'known issue' at NIBE, as well as their Irish distributor (someone there told me he himself had been unable to get one to activate until about...6kW).


I don't have the same 70-Watt leakage, though.

randombar

Are prices of these coming down? Trying to figure out the ROI and it is still ridiculous. Even for a well insulated house.

7700kwh per year costing me €750 in Kerosene

Would save maybe €350 per year with HP.

Mr Q

Coltrane wrote: »

My EME10 doesn't work at all, even at surpluses far higher than 1kW. I've a 5kWp array, frequently with surpluses of more than 3kW and the EME10 never kicks in. As I understood this is a 'known issue' at NIBE, as well as their Irish distributor (someone there told me he himself had been unable to get one to activate until about...6kW).


I don't have the same 70-Watt leakage, though.

Even if i turn off the indoor unit on the front it is using about 45 watts. Do you have a VVM indoor unit?

Coltrane

Mr Q wrote: »

Even if i turn off the indoor unit on the front it is using about 45 watts. Do you have a VVM indoor unit?

Yes I have the VVM320 too. The combined always-on wattage between the 320 and the 2040 is maybe 20W. (Haven't checked in a while but do know that the 24-hour average always-on for the entire house is 52W).

Coltrane

GaryCocs wrote: »

Are prices of these coming down? Trying to figure out the ROI and it is still ridiculous. Even for a well insulated house.

7700kwh per year costing me €750 in Kerosene

Would save maybe €350 per year with HP.

You are absolutely right, they are extremely expensive. I'm not aware that prices are falling.


The SEAI grant is very hard to qualify for. My house fell short of their target even though I threw every insulating etc measure I could at it, short of insulating period facades/dry-lining into period coving. An installer told me that only six people in Ireland got the grant last year.


I do think you should factor the environmental damage of kerosene, though. You could wait for the state to increase tax on it, perhaps when it's too late to address climate change, or you could make a stab at estimating the cost to you of remediating the climate in future years.


I never fully got - and this is probably my fault - the point that HPs should only be used in well insulated houses. I get it that they work most efficiently at lower temperatures, and that uninsulated buildings need hotter burns to maintain comfort but that hasn't been an issue in my house which has 'good for a period house' levels of insulation etc. When I see such powerful and expensive heat sources being put into A-rated houses I do question the need. Passive houses can they say be heated with toasters!

MOTM

Coltrane wrote: »

The SEAI grant is very hard to qualify for. My house fell short of their target even though I threw every insulating etc measure I could at it, short of insulating period facades/dry-lining into period coving. An installer told me that only six people in Ireland got the grant last year.

While the target is tight, it is there for a reason. And there are a lot of houses ready to go:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_housing_planning_and_local_government/2019-05-15/3/

"Approximately 300,000 homes are heat pump ready as to their fabric. They do not have to do a deeper retrofit of their windows, walls or attics. They are ready to go."

randombar

MOTM wrote: »

While the target is tight, it is there for a reason. And there are a lot of houses ready to go:

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/joint_committee_on_housing_planning_and_local_government/2019-05-15/3/

"Approximately 300,000 homes are heat pump ready as to their fabric. They do not have to do a deeper retrofit of their windows, walls or attics. They are ready to go."

But if the houses are so well insulated the heating costs are low irrespective of the source, so HP is saving less and less against other sources. Even with the grant you're still talking 7k for the heat pump. Condensing boiler is maybe 2.5k and probably would last longer. 4.5k is a big sum to try and recover.

Obviously I understand the environmental side of it but there are better more cost effective ways of doing your bit for the environment, PV, EV etc.

MOTM

GaryCocs wrote: »

But if the houses are so well insulated the heating costs are low irrespective of the source, so HP is saving less and less against other sources. Even with the grant you're still talking 7k for the heat pump. Condensing boiler is maybe 2.5k and probably would last longer. 4.5k is a big sum to try and recover.

Obviously I understand the environmental side of it but there are better more cost effective ways of doing your bit for the environment, PV, EV etc.

The market won't stay as is though. Fossil fuels are currently very cheap, and carbon tax is minimal. That won't last forever and the heat pump option starts to look more attractive when fuel costs ramp up. Neither will the current heat pump subsidy last forever. And that's before we even talk about potential ban of oil/gas boiler installation in the next decade and you have to move to heat pump or something else (wood fuels? Euuughhh).

I find it hard to see how PV can currently be cost effective without installing a battery given the lack of a microgen tariff. And the only EV's worthwhile at the moment (i.e. adequate range) ain't even remotely affordable for most people and certainly cost a hell of a lot more than a heat pump.

randombar

MOTM wrote: »

The market won't stay as is though. Fossil fuels are currently very cheap, and carbon tax is minimal. That won't last forever and the heat pump option starts to look more attractive when fuel costs ramp up. Neither will the current heat pump subsidy last forever. And that's before we even talk about potential ban of oil/gas boiler installation in the next decade and you have to move to heat pump or something else (wood fuels? Euuughhh).

I find it hard to see how PV can currently be cost effective without installing a battery given the lack of a microgen tariff. And the only EV's worthwhile at the moment (i.e. adequate range) ain't even remotely affordable for most people and certainly cost a hell of a lot more than a heat pump.

Rough figures for me were:

4kw array with 2.4kwh battery for 4k (great deal), saving 400py approx (ROI of 10 yrs)
161 24kwh leaf 11k from UK, saving 1200 py on petrol costs, 400 py on tax
(ROI of 6.8 yrs)
All depends on circumstances I know.

Coltrane

GaryCocs wrote: »

Rough figures for me were:

4kw array with 2.4kwh battery for 4k (great deal), saving 400py approx (ROI of 10 yrs).

Looks like a great quote.

unkel

MOTM wrote: »

And the only EV's worthwhile at the moment (i.e. adequate range) ain't even remotely affordable for most people

How do you define affordable?

I paid €25k for my Hyundai Ioniq EV in 2017. Roughly the same as a diesel Skoda Octavia auto with a decent spec (but nowhere near as good as the spec on my Ioniq)

From then on the Octavia owner would spend thousands a year on fuel alone, the Ioniq owner just hundreds. And everything else is cheaper too. Tax, insurance, maintenance, tolls, parking, you name it.

MOTM

When I was thinking of the "adequate" range, I was thinking of the likes of the Kona...which are not old enough yet to be affordable

I guess if someone has to change their car anyway, and if they'd go for a newer diesel/petrol, then it won't be that much more of a stretch to go EV, and the difference will pay for itself.

However, if someone's boiler has only a few years left, then I think it is a good time to avail of the grant while it is there and get a heat pump....

Bobeagleburger

Is underfloor heating fundamental to these systems? I'd love to go down the heat pump route but the costs may not be worth it yet if it means ripping up floors

air

6 wrote: »

Is underfloor heating fundamental to these systems? I'd love to go down the heat pump route but the costs may not be worth it yet if it means ripping up floors

It's not fundamental but it improves the efficiency quite a lot. The greater surface area of the heat emitter (the whole floor) means you can run the heat pump at a lower flow temperature for the same heat output which means it has less work to do and thus uses less energy.

Another aspect is the impact on perceived comfort levels. We tend to need more heat when we are sedentary, which also happens to be when we are close to the floor - sitting etc. So with UFH you're closer to the heat source when you need heat the most.
Also the surface temperature of the entire floor is warmer which gives the perception of higher absolute temperature.
Finally since there is a single evenly distributed heat source as opposed to a point heat source (radiatior) you eliminate any convection currents or draughts which again increases perceived comfort levels.
The upshot of all this is that you can heat your home to a lower absolute air temperature with a seemingly magical higher perceived comfort level.

This means that you use less energy again as heat losses through the fabric of the house are reduced due to the lower temperature differential between inside and outside.

mcbert

Does installing UFH in a kitchen for example require the existing kitchen be replaced? Or can the floor area be dug up without damaging cabinets etc?

Water John

UFH in an existing house is usually part of a major renovation. One would cut the concrete floor about 100mm from the walls and then dig down with a minidigger or manual. Min you'll need 100/150 mm sub floor, 150 mm insulation, 75mm screed. Its a good bit of work.
BTW you put vertical insulation around the perimeter to isolate the screed, about 25mm.

Wigglytester

I had a Thermia Atec (Danfoss DHP AQ) installed about 7 years ago, got Electric bill for €1600 for Nov \ Dec 2021 followed by €600 for Jan. Turns out refrigerant leaked from the evaporator which caused the unit to switch to electric heating elements.

Had the installers back to investigate the 'Low pressure alarm' (€220) informed be the evaporator had leaked. Quote for new evaporator plus install €2600.

Contacted distributor as to why a passive component had failed after 6-7 Years service on a piece of equipment designed to last 15-20 years, not fit for purpose, not prepared to do anything.

Called a refrigeration guy I know who identified the leak, repaired and regassed (€470). See pic attached of leak.

So in short avoid Thermia, had I repaired the manufacturers fault with the approved installer the failure would have cost in the region of €4500 including excess electricity. Would have bought a lot of oil for that over the last 7 years...