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How about get a degree where there are jobs instead of crying about it.

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    #32
    Assetbacked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,969 ✭✭✭Assetbacked


    imme wrote: »
    I sensed attention seeking or someone trying to get a regular column in the Irish Times.

    This man every kind of opportunity, every kind of service and every form of education in rural counties.

    The emigration generation series is mainly about those looking to get a leg up and therefore does involve some spite about having to leave in the first place? It is entitlement and such personalities get attracted to superficial places like London and New York but ultimately they end up whinging and coming back; why? Because Ireland isn't the crap place they want it to be in order to justify running away run from their own insecurities.


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    #33
    Arghus
    Registered Users Posts: 14,368 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    The point of the article is that a lot of people who emigrated don't see the point of moving back because of issues with rent, lack of housing, amongst other things. That applies to people who work in all sorts of industries.

    The sense of entitlement thing is a bit overstated. At the end of the day he did emigrate and find work elsewhere. But maybe you didn't get further than the first sentence before imploding with rage. As usual, some quare amount of projecting going on in this thread.


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    #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 7,712 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    All I hope is that they stay wherever they went.


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    #35
    Nermal
    Registered Users Posts: 2,617 ✭✭✭Nermal


    thenightman wrote: »
    This lad sounds happy enough

    someone hasn't read the article, clearly doesn't have a masters in literature


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    #36
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    People have always had to move to places like London for work, especially for people with less practical qualifications.

    It's just that now, even trying to avoid the articles is hard work because they're cited around the clock in every forum you read as part of the outrage wars.


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    #37
    JustAThought
    Registered Users Posts: 5,323 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    Some of the subjects classified as Arts which you can study in combinations:

    Maths
    Economics
    Business,Economics,Social Science (BESS)
    Languages - European, Asian, Russian
    Literature / English
    History
    Geography

    Hardly a tosspots list.


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    #38
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    2009 wasn't a great year anywhere, in the mid-west Dell was after announcing that it was closing the factory BUT there was loads of minimum wage jobs available. My guess is that John thought a minimum wage in Clare was below him because he had a Masters but that was ok in London.Probably didn't help that he was straight out of college with little experience.


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    #39
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,669 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Assetbacked wrote: »
    The emigration generation series is mainly about those looking to get a leg up and therefore does involve some spite about having to leave in the first place? It is entitlement and such personalities get attracted to superficial places like London and New York but ultimately they end up whinging and coming back; why? Because Ireland isn't the crap place they want it to be in order to justify running away run from their own insecurities.

    I've only read a few of these articles, but they all went to anglophone cities, work as waiters or in shoos and then complain that they can't move back to Ireland.


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    #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Arghus wrote: »
    As usual, some quare amount of projecting going on in this thread.

    particularly from the scalded arts grads, who seem determined to ignore the fact this fella went to a national paper whinging his personal-satisfaction degree choice hasnt made him rich yet


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    #41
    Arghus
    Registered Users Posts: 14,368 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    particularly from the scalded arts grads, who seem determined to ignore the fact this fella went to a national paper whinging his personal-satisfaction degree choice hasnt made him rich yet

    Yes, particularly from the scalded arts grads...

    Don't let the outrage take over your life.

    Bit more to the article than that.


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    #42
    893bet
    Registered Users Posts: 8,793 ✭✭✭893bet


    Playwright John O’Donovan’s new play Flights is on at the Project Arts Centre in Dublin until February 8th, and has its London premiere on February 11th to 29th at Omnibus Theatre.


    He done ok. It’s a global economy. He was never gonna stay in Clare.


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    #43
    chrissb8
    Registered Users Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭chrissb8


    Oranage2 wrote: »
    I see the guy added in mental health, depression and homelessness, it seems like everyone in Ireland now suffers with at least one of these things. I'm surprised he didn't throw in allergic to gluten.



    Ps. I know mental health, depression and homelessness are real and they're serious problems but it seems like everyone now has self diagnosed depression or homeless because they live at home.

    It's almost like these people are waiting for change to come to them instead of changing themselves. How I see it anyway.

    Complain loads about a situation, yeah ok, I get it's tough but what are you going to do about it?

    Because you are the only person who can change it.

    I think when anyone shouts mental health these days it's such a delicate topic we just kind of have to accept it.

    Maybe you're just going through a rough time instead and it's a part of life like happiness is? People need to learn to find inner strength and overcome these "problems" aka life. Because there will be many more hurdles in life and you gotta build resiliance and healthy coping mechanisms. Talk to your friends and family but know that you are the only one who can change a situation you're in.


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    #44
    creditcarder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭creditcarder


    Kitty6277 wrote: »
    Because not everyone has an interest/ability to do well in the business/IT/engineering courses


    Get a trade skill. Move out of Dublin and work on the minimun wage (When you have the memories of home it can be a good life imo). Transfer your skills to open your own business. Find work where you are that you can take home. Learn another skill that you can work from home.



    I can see where they are coming from as I grew up in a small town in the centre, so I can see what they mean by being forced out, but there are other options.


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    #45
    creditcarder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭creditcarder


    banie01 wrote: »
    An arts degree and a master's in Literature!
    Well done...

    The foresight to realise that such esoteric qualifications are of fúck all use in gaining somewhat local employment in a rural part of Co Clare...

    Well that doesn't say much for an arts degree is shaping one for actual adulthood!


    Get a PGCE and you can maybe work in Britain/Ireland. I mean there are options.


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    #46
    Arghus
    Registered Users Posts: 14,368 ✭✭✭✭Arghus


    chrissb8 wrote: »
    It's almost like these people are waiting for change to come to them instead of changing themselves. How I see it anyway.

    Complain loads about a situation, yeah ok, I get it's tough but what are you going to do about it?

    Because you are the only person who can change it.

    I think when anyone shouts mental health these days it's such a delicate topic we just kind of have to accept it.

    Maybe you're just going through a rough time instead and it's a part of life like happiness is? People need to learn to find inner strength and overcome these "problems" aka life. Because there will be many more hurdles in life and you gotta build resiliance and healthy coping mechanisms. Talk to your friends and family but know that you are the only one who can change a situation you're in.

    The guy did change his situation. He moved to London and took unpaid internship work in the industry he wanted to work in - and now he's a playwright. He's not saying his life is shyte.

    Honestly, do people actually read the articles they give out about?

    Also, there's no way he wrote the title or the sub heading for the article. That's the work of a sub editor somewhere in The Irish Times.


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    #47
    Pinch Flat
    Registered Users Posts: 7,761 ✭✭✭Pinch Flat


    He's probably fluent in a language as well. Latin perhaps.


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    #48
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,392 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Basically a plug for his play.


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    #49
    Kitty6277
    Registered Users Posts: 6,204 ✭✭✭Kitty6277


    creditcarder wrote: »
    Get a trade skill. Move out of Dublin and work on the minimun wage (When you have the memories of home it can be a good life imo). Transfer your skills to open your own business. Find work where you are that you can take home. Learn another skill that you can work from home.



    I can see where they are coming from as I grew up in a small town in the centre, so I can see what they mean by being forced out, but there are other options.

    That still doesn’t mean that will suit everyone. Not everyone wants to work in a trade, not everyone wants to open a business. I don’t agree with the notion of “get a degree just because there’s jobs in it”. Obviously you want to be able to work and use your degree but there’s no point in studying something you hate and then going on to work in a job you hate.

    Now while I’m not saying yer man should have expected to get a job with his literature MA in rural Clare, the point I took from it was that he couldn’t even have gotten a job in his home country, that it was easier for him to move away, and that’s not right either.


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    #50
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,709 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Homelander wrote: »
    What a braindead article, reminds me of that tosspot fool whinging about how Belfast wasn't the same as New York and blaming everyone but herself for finding herself back there.

    Wow, rural Co. Clare doesn't offer people with degrees in Literature the same opportunities as one of the biggest metropolises in the world, mind-blowing.

    There have been a few articles in the IT from people who went away and then came back without doing any research and then were shocked when things weren't falling into place for them, they are eejits but this guy I actually empathize with. He was pro-active moved away even though he'd rather stay, recovered from his depression and found a way to do what he enjoys.

    His crime not finding a soul destroying office job and giving up, Let's throw rocks at him!

    I know many people who are working in soul destroying office jobs because they can't find their way back into the Arts after the recession left them jobless, for them it was an absolute joy to work in a creative space or to help people engage with their own creativity and learning quite a few have suffered from periods of depression/ felt down and trapped in a meaningless loop of an existence.


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    #51
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    Those type of art degrees are for folk from wealthy families, who will do an interest subject in university and then take over the running of the family profession.

    Folk like Prince William or Greta Thunberg (if she ever goes to school again) who will do their thing and then inherit the family dynasty.

    A fancy dan degree in Classics or History of Art is not for the Average Joe from a housing estate.


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    #52
    creditcarder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭creditcarder


    Kitty6277 wrote: »
    That still doesn’t mean that will suit everyone. Not everyone wants to work in a trade, not everyone wants to open a business. I don’t agree with the notion of “get a degree just because there’s jobs in it”. Obviously you want to be able to work and use your degree but there’s no point in studying something you hate and then going on to work in a job you hate.

    Now while I’m not saying yer man should have expected to get a job with his literature MA in rural Clare, the point I took from it was that he couldn’t even have gotten a job in his home country, that it was easier for him to move away, and that’s not right either.


    Soldier on.



    I mean there are options? You have to balance the benefits of living in your culture vs the life that you will be living. Eh, maybe it's because I'm a dude but working in a job that I don't want to work in is the norm for me :P


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    #53
    Always Tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Always Tired


    I studied fine art. I never intended to work in some tedious corporate slave wage job. I knew I would probably be pretty poor as a result of following my passion. (Never thought it would be this bad, but costs of living has risen so much that it IS quite challenging to make ends meet at times.)

    I don't expect there to be a job in my field in the small town I live in. I live here because it's cheap. I've been on the dole now 3 years, and for around 5 of the last 8 since graduating in 2011.

    I would happily do something like work in a cafe or shop, but where I live there is still a severe lack of even those types of jobs. Only places ever hiring is a few hotels and takeaways and my experience in those was generally awful, work ridiculous hours when it suits them, get none when it doesn't, low pay, 75% of your colleagues speaking in some language other than English most of the time. Treated like absolute crap. Once you have either quit or got fired from the 3 or 4 of them in town there's nothing else left.

    I'm now almost finished my 2nd stint of Jobpath. They havent referred me to a single job. They don't have any. I can't move for family reasons, and moving to Dublin or London or where the jobs are doesnt appeal to me. I love cities but the rents are insane so I just visit when I want to enjoy some culture, see art, go to gigs, etc.

    I've stopped being bitter about the economy. It was my own fault for pursuing something unpractical. But I don't regret it. I made some adjusments. I quit smoking and drinking years ago, and I buy paints etc. with the money saved. I've had my art displayed in 4 different countries, I've had 2 pieces of my writing published in literary mags the last couple years (doesnt sound like much but it's hard to get selected even for small publications). I don't make any money off my creative endeavours, any I do get goes back which is rare into the work, but I have gotten the stuff out there and a few people enjoyed them. That's good enough for me.

    I did a stint in a medical device factory for a year as a contractor. They forced us onto 12 hr shifts, and then let us go when it suited them. You had to stick the same pieces of plastic together over and over. I hated it, and despite the good pay my health was ruined by the crazy shifts, going to bed at 9 am, try and sleep during the daytime and go back in for 8 pm

    For some, to get made permanent in this job would have been a dream come true. Me, I saw the people who had been at this craic for donkeys years and they seemed completely institutionalized, their life revolved around this place, the gossip, the company, and they all had this grey, shapeless, lifeless look to them.

    I'd honestly rather not end up like that, even if that means not having a flash car or big house.
    And for myself, I kind of have to do creative stuff because I'm not good at anything else, I can't hack boring work that doesnt engage me, I can't kiss up to managers who are almost always dullards or bullies, I don't want to wear a dumb uniform, have my activities timed, and be expected to bend over backwards for some company that doesnt care a jot about me at the end of the day. Most of all, if I don't engage with my creative pursuits I just feel bad, depressed, dissatisfied. I think a lot of creative people are like that.

    And that's why some people study these non practical things OP.


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    #54
    Always Tired
    Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭Always Tired


    I know my last post was long enough but I just want to add that people who think like the OP annoy me a little because they are so narrow minded they can't understand it, and don't even try.

    I mean, I can understand easily why one would choose to be an engineer or IT guy, etc. It offers money, which equals security. If I could do that, why wouldn't I? It would be much easier than to try and struggle as an artist. (Not saying engineering or IT is easy, just easier to make money at for people who are inclined that way) It would certainly, as OP suggests, be preferable to not being able to make money off the only things I am good at, and at the same time unable to deal with the torturous conditions inflicted upon front line workers in unskilled jobs like retail, call centres, hotels/restaurants (all of which I have done for at least 2 years each btw.)

    This isn't the first time boards has had a thread like this, with people scoffing about creative people being entitled, wasters, etc. But do you lot not see how you could also be scoffed at for your choices? Because clearly the money and security provided to you by your practical degree or job hasn't made you happy. It hasn't softened your heart. Some of you dont even appear grateful for what you have, spending a large amount of time begrudging people with far less than you for whatever they have, gnashing your teeth about people on the dole stealing your tax and silly shìte like that.

    Maybe instead of asking why the artists didn't study a 'jobby' degree, ask yourself why you don't do something creative. It might make you less vindictive and petty!

    The most valuable resource we have is our time. So if someone wants to use it to be creative instead of doing something they arent suited to, it makes perfect sense to me. And likewise, if someone wants to work for some big company doing dull and thankless tasks and playing office politics because it allows for them to have a lot of money, I can see the appeal to that too. It certainly feels great to have lots of money. It solves a lot of problems, allows you to fill a lot of desires. I just know it's not for me.

    It would be nice if there were more opportunities for artists outside of the cities. Especially considering the cities are not really affordable to artists now. But unfortunately we need less of the attitude displayed in the OP for that to happen.


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    #55
    diusmr8a504cvk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,959 ✭✭✭diusmr8a504cvk


    I think people should do what makes them happy.


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    #56
    Raconteuse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Raconteuse


    I could never have done business studies or computer science. But my tendencies are a combination of the creative with the practical - I need structure. So I did an arts degree followed by a practical postgrad (yet still plenty of room for creativity and expression). Never been out of work apart from a stint freelancing (which did not suit me).


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    #57
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,281 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    Basically a plug for his play.

    At this stage most of the Irish Times is a plug for something, so best of luck to him.


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    #58
    Fccwontletmebe
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 75 ✭✭Fccwontletmebe


    Always Tired wrote: »
    I know my last post was long enough but I just want to add that people who think like the OP annoy me a little because they are so narrow minded they can't understand it, and don't even try.

    I mean, I can understand easily why one would choose to be an engineer or IT guy, etc. It offers money, which equals security. If I could do that, why wouldn't I? It would be much easier than to try and struggle as an artist. (Not saying engineering or IT is easy, just easier to make money at for people who are inclined that way) It would certainly, as OP suggests, be preferable to not being able to make money off the only things I am good at, and at the same time unable to deal with the torturous conditions inflicted upon front line workers in unskilled jobs like retail, call centres, hotels/restaurants (all of which I have done for at least 2 years each btw.)

    This isn't the first time boards has had a thread like this, with people scoffing about creative people being entitled, wasters, etc. But do you lot not see how you could also be scoffed at for your choices? Because clearly the money and security provided to you by your practical degree or job hasn't made you happy. It hasn't softened your heart. Some of you dont even appear grateful for what you have, spending a large amount of time begrudging people with far less than you for whatever they have, gnashing your teeth about people on the dole stealing your tax and silly shìte like that.

    Maybe instead of asking why the artists didn't study a 'jobby' degree, ask yourself why you don't do something creative. It might make you less vindictive and petty!

    The most valuable resource we have is our time. So if someone wants to use it to be creative instead of doing something they arent suited to, it makes perfect sense to me. And likewise, if someone wants to work for some big company doing dull and thankless tasks and playing office politics because it allows for them to have a lot of money, I can see the appeal to that too. It certainly feels great to have lots of money. It solves a lot of problems, allows you to fill a lot of desires. I just know it's not for me.

    It would be nice if there were more opportunities for artists outside of the cities. Especially considering the cities are not really affordable to artists now. But unfortunately we need less of the attitude displayed in the OP for that to happen.

    Get a car and commute to work. It’s not that difficult.

    Ah sure we should all go on the dole now should we?

    This is exactly the attitude I hate, happy to be on the dole draining the system but poor me doesn’t like working. It’s a cop out.

    Sorry OP But been on the dole refusing to work seriously annoys me.

    A burden on the state and just seems like your ultra lazy.

    If someone is physically able to work they should be working.


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    #59
    Church on Tuesday
    Registered Users Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Church on Tuesday


    Better Than Christ wrote: »
    Emigrating in search of work is 'entitlement culture' now, is it?

    Fucking hell, I've seen some stupid threads on here...

    You will see many, many more.


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    #60
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Julio Wailing Page wrote: »
    I think people should do what makes them happy.

    I agree. Just as soon as they cop on to thenselves, grow the feck up and get a job to pay their way. And no bitching from them in the meantime. Soft as a baked bean sheite. Whiney people who can’t stick a bit of real work because they’re not conditioned to pull their own weight in life. A good oul’ war and conscription, for example, would help put us back on track. A bit of a cull would be helpful at this stage because these drips do nothing to promote a resilient gene pool.


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    #61
    An Ri rua
    Registered Users Posts: 4,475 ✭✭✭An Ri rua


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Quite. An arts degree was never intended to be monetised. It is study for study's sake. And all the better for it. But really only for gentlemen of independent means, or for a few who are needed to become the tutors, or the masters in a public school, to boys of that class. The problem arises when people enrole in them who will later have to find gainful employ, rather than taking a grand tour to enhance their learning and then taking up their position in society. The former are really more suited to the manual trades, which provide ample work opportunity to that class.
    I must say that there's a whiff of the vulgar about this. Steady on. No need to monetise the thing chap.


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