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Universal Basic Income?

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Comments

  • #52
    Sonny noggs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,523 ✭✭✭Sonny noggs


    sk8erboii wrote: »
    Whats this got to do with communism?

    Forcibly taking control of the means of production and expropriating private property etc? Ring any bells?


  • #53
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Sonny noggs wrote: »
    Forcibly taking control of the means of production and expropriating private property etc? Ring any bells?

    One of the reasons we see big players in Silicon Valley get behind UBI is because they know that the future is one of abundance with fewer-and-fewer jobs and increasing poverty which creates a major, systemic, problem for them.

    As political economist Mark Blyth said 'the Hamptons is not a defensible position. Eventually the people will come for you.'


  • #54
    Ubbquittious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,256 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    We are way ahead of the trend here having had dole for decades now. The whole "UBI" discussion is more relevant in places like the states where you are left to die a death if you lose your job


  • #55
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,830 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Greens proposing UBI in their election manifesto
    https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/2020/0125/1110817-green-party-manifesto/
    FF committed to setting up a commission to look into it
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fianna-fail-says-basic-income-model-could-help-counter-rise-of-the-robots-37668652.html

    Doubt it'll actually happen under the next government but could be on its way soon enough...


  • #56
    mariaalice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,620 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    One of the big issues with UBS that does not get much traction and would be a huge issue is: The vast majority do not have the skills, interest, talents, or ability to use endless free time they are not going to be making art, gardening communing with nature or whatever, the boredom will lead to a lot of drug-taking fudeing with their family, fighting and so on.

    The ones with all the skills and talent are the ones who will most likely to have interesting work in this future scenario.

    We could end up with a two-tiered society.


  • #57
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    mariaalice wrote: »
    One of the big issues with UBS that does not get much traction and would be a huge issue is: The vast majority do not have the skills, interest, talents, or ability to use endless free time they are not going to be making art, gardening communing with nature or whatever, the boredom will lead to a lot of drug-taking fudeing with their family, fighting and so on.
    The ones with all the skills and talent are the one who will most likely to have interesting work in this future scenario.
    We could end up with a two-tiered society.
    You have no faith in the endless demand for the 'want a bigger tv' human condition.

    Also, UBI benefits those with nothing the very most (the low skilled that will be looking at the scrapheap after mass automation). A Banker getting an extra 300pwk for nothing will just spend that on a big lunch and bottle of pop.

    But for the average sofa based cheesos grazer, it will open up a risk-free world of opportunity (they'll likely discover that, once they can process the simple logic behind it) even while stimulated/inspired by a 6-pack serving of dutch gold.


  • #58
    NIMAN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,007 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    I read one of the parties (think it was SF) had an increase of the dole to €245 per week in their manifesto.

    That's practically UBI there.
    A grand every 4 weeks for doing nowt.


  • #59
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    NIMAN wrote: »
    I read one of the parties (think it was SF) had an increase of the dole to €245 per week in their manifesto.

    That's practically UBI there.
    A grand every 4 weeks for doing nowt.


    Dole is not UBI


  • #60
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,220 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    Greens proposing UBI in their election manifesto
    https://www.rte.ie/news/election-2020/2020/0125/1110817-green-party-manifesto/

    Vote for us! Free money!


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  • #61
    Feisar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Feisar


    drillyeye wrote: »
    It might be a another attempt to be the best boy in the class by them, ie run a trial, but let it die after that.

    The problem, as I see it, first and foremost is that if a country were to actually implement it on national scale.....who wouldn't be tripping over themselves to get there?

    So if UBI is dead out the gates, then that means automation and increasing unemployment doesn't have a cure.

    We always think it'll be the menial jobs that go first, I'm in construction and paid from the neck up for the want of a better expression, it'd be easier replace me with a program than the lads on the tools.

    In the long run we'll either be living in a utopia or some sort of hell with a tiny percentage having everything and the rest of us existing on scraps.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • #62
    banie01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,935 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Feisar wrote: »
    We always think it'll be the menial jobs that go first, I'm in construction and paid from the neck up for the want of a better expression, it'd be easier replace me with a program than the lads on the tools.

    In the long run we'll either be living in a utopia or some sort of hell with a tiny percentage having everything and the rest of us existing on scraps.

    Massive amounts of automation work already underway in fields that were previously "safe" medical diagnostics, insurance claim handling, even legal pleadings are all being farmed out to Watson and Microsoft currently.

    The next industrial revolution will hurt the neck up employees far more than those on tools.


  • #63
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,830 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    biko wrote: »
    Vote for us! Free money!

    Well they're all offering that in one form or another. There's an argument that UBI could save money by streamlining the welfare state:
    In support of the idea, it must be pointed-out that the streamlining of an overly bureaucratised and expensive welfare system is something that the introduction of a basic income could potentially achieve.
    https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2019/0207/1028123-all-you-need-to-know-about-basic-income/


  • #64
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    banie01 wrote: »
    The next industrial revolution will hurt the neck up employees far more than those on tools.
    This 4thIR is (currently) kicking below neck industries such as retail and warehousing to pieces.


    A quick look at the uk's economy shows the worst year in retail for a quater of a century, CBI shows 3rd flat month in a row, and 57,000 jobs to be shed from 2019. The BRC said 10,000 were lost in the first 3wks of 2020 alone.


  • #65
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    The Govn't of the US are considering issuing $1,000 to each american in this crisis. Seems they have been talking with Andrew Yang about how they may do this. It even may not be a once off.


  • #66
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Water John wrote: »
    The Govn't of the US are considering issuing $1,000 to each american in this crisis. Seems they have been talking with Andrew Yang about how they may do this. It even may not be a once off.


    Lol, looks like the Donald stole his policy, All he has to do is run it (1k pm) until election day, and he'll walk it (again).



    The term 'Freedom Dividend' does have a nice ring about it.


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  • #67
    Geuze
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,753 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    drillyeye wrote: »

    Its similar to the dole, but with 2 very important differences. First of all, there is absolutely no expectation to work. Secondly, it would be close to average industrial wage, say, 30 grand a year.
    .

    Your point on migration is fair.

    Please note, proposed UBI is approx 13k per year.

    Average earnings are 37k pa.

    Average earnings for FT workers are 46-47k.


  • #68
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Its not cloud 9 thinking. A lot of countries already have experimented with it.

    saudi Arabia has a citizen account program that is basically this. There have been experiments in experiments in Canada, Finland, India and Namibia.

    I actually think its more important and could be more life changing in third world countries than here.

    I would be in favor of it though.


  • #69
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,345 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Can someone explain the difference between UBI and where we have long term dole recipients who also get housing benefits. So they basically don't need anything else.


  • #70
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    Can someone explain the difference between UBI and where we have long term dole recipients who also get housing benefits. So they basically don't need anything else.

    Dole recipients are unemployed.

    People who work will receive UBI...it won't be means tested. Everyone will get it.


  • #71
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    You also dismantle a whole system. No person checking are you trying for work, no nonsense training courses, no grey economy.


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  • #72
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Water John wrote: »
    You also dismantle a whole system. No person checking are you trying for work, no nonsense training courses, no grey economy.


    She won't be happy!



  • #73
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    It's what should have happened 10 years ago during the crash. Put spending money in peoples hands. David McWilliams was right.


  • #74
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Water John wrote: »
    It's what should have happened 10 years ago during the crash. Put spending money in peoples hands. David McWilliams was right.
    It actually did. Only for banker people.


  • #75
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Brilliant to see Basic Income being introduced for 55K arts and culture sector workers, €200/250/week.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/basic-income-arts-workers-5269012-Nov2020/

    I believe that like Haughey's tax free writer status, it can fuel the arts.


  • #76
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,830 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Water John wrote: »
    Brilliant to see Basic Income being introduced for 55K arts and culture sector workers, €200/250/week.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/basic-income-arts-workers-5269012-Nov2020/

    I believe that like Haughey's tax free writer status, it can fuel the arts.

    Only being discussed as yet...


  • #77
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Water John wrote: »
    Brilliant to see Basic Income being introduced for 55K arts and culture sector workers, €200/250/week.
    https://www.thejournal.ie/basic-income-arts-workers-5269012-Nov2020/

    I believe that like Haughey's tax free writer status, it can fuel the arts.
    Brilliant.

    TBH ....i think the UBI ...it will bring more honesty to the welfare system.

    I mean you are allowed to work with it. And well ..some people are supplementing their welfare with mixers ...most just odd things. But i mean with UBI ...they wouldnt have to LIE about it at least.


  • #78
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    It's being brought to Cabinet. This is not done unless an action is being decided.
    Cabinet meetings are not chat rooms.


  • #79
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Water John wrote: »
    It's being brought to Cabinet. This is not done unless an action is being decided.
    Cabinet meetings are not chat rooms.
    ugh ...then it will never happen. :(


  • #80
    Water John
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Then we'll wait and see.


  • #81
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Water John wrote: »
    Then we'll wait and see.




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  • #82
    victor8600
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭victor8600


    I am a well paid professional and it's likely that I will have to pay more tax to support the UBI. But I am all for it. As ILoveYourVibes said, it allows people to get into the odd jobs without losing the welfare money.


  • #83
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,830 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    I wonder do the Greens see this as a pilot for a truly universal BI...


  • #84
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Loafing Oaf wrote: »
    I wonder do the Greens see this as a pilot for a truly universal BI...
    They can't see they get too much shut eye!:pac:


  • #85
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,202 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    victor8600 wrote: »
    I am a well paid professional and it's likely that I will have to pay more tax to support the UBI. But I am all for it. As ILoveYourVibes said, it allows people to get into the odd jobs without losing the welfare money.
    Yeah and certain jobs are very unstable. I mean you get two weeks jobs etc.

    Partic in the arts ..and hospitality actually.


  • #86
    victor8600
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭victor8600


    ILoveYourVibes wrote: »
    Yeah and certain jobs are very unstable. I mean you get two weeks jobs etc.

    Partic in the arts ..and hospitality actually.

    Exactly. If people in unstable jobs have to sign in/sign off the Social Welfare, how much their time is wasted on the needless bureaucracy?


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