Pistol red dot.

Cass · 10-11-2019 12:56am #1

Having copped on to an obvious mistake that has kept me from mounting a red dot to my pistol i have now started to look for one.

I see some that are cheap, and i mean really cheap, and i'd hesitate to go for it. I then see others than are in the hundreds of euro (400+) which is simply more than i'm willing to spend. Others seem to fall into the 75 to 180 euro mark which is about as comfortable as i would be in terms of spending. I know the low budget is going to limit my options, hence the thread.

So i need some suggestions and a little feed back.

It's going on a Sig P226, centrefire.

Few other questions.

I've shot a couple of pistols (all unrestricted) where the red dot is mounted or the pistol is designed in such a way that the red dot does not move. IOW the slide is separate to the mounting point so would a red dot hold up under the work of the slide.
Are some like scopes. Caliber specific.
What brands and models would you recommend.
Anything else i should be on the look out for (MOA adjustment, certain type of glass, certain type of red dot, etc).

Hack12 · 10-11-2019 8:40am

Vortex Venom 3 MOA is an amazing red dot. The 6 MOA I find to big on target.

There is two options with the settings so you can either leave the dot as is or set it that it adjusts automatically depending on the light conditions.

Some of the cheap red dots are not up to centrefire recoil and crack. I've seen the venom on pistols, shotguns, rimfire and centrefire rifles and it never fails.

Also a lifetime warranty with Vortex so it's great value over time.

Cass · 10-11-2019 12:28pm

What kinda money am i looking at?

Also the 3MOA/6MOA. From what you've said it seems that is the size of the red dot. That is interesting i thought they referred to adjustment. So the smaller one is better to avoid blocking out the target picture but what kind of adjustment have they?

freddieot · 10-11-2019 2:38pm

This is the one I have. Used it on my GP K22 (using a mount via the light rail) and sighted it in yesterday on my Beretta 1301, all with no issues. It fits a pic rail etc. so easy to mount. Box has the dot with rail and a height extender thing in case you want to co-witness on a rifle platform.

https://www.optics-trade.eu/en/vortex-crossfire-red-dot.html

Very reasonable money for what you get. I'd stick with Vortex, Trijicon or even some of the more expensive brands and only cry once etc.

Cass · 10-11-2019 3:28pm

My pistol has a compensator on it which means it takes up the rail under the pistol. Also as the front sight in mounted on the compensator and not the slide it means if i were to remove the compensator i'd lose the front sight (which is unimportant when using a red dot i know), but also the last 1" as the compensator makes up the final inch.

I know that sounds weird, but my barrel is 5.5" long and the slide is 4.5". I tried sourcing a new slide, but that is so complicated as to be unworkable.

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I seen a custom made mount from Sig and a few other suppliers(all the same design) but they were all over €250 for the mount alone or part of a kit, plus it's unworkable for me as it means removing the compensator.

6034073

Then it dawned on me (should have been as obvious as the nose on my face, but i didn't cop on to it) if i remove the rear sight, but a red dot mount then i have the ability to mount a red dot, keep the compensator and aid in my shooting as i'm finding it harder to focus on the sights. Could be eye sight, light, or just lack of practice, but i've wanted one for a while and now seems to be the time to try it.

This sort of mount would allow me to keep the compensator, remove the rear sight, and mount the red dot.

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My other concern, as said above, is how do they hold up to being constantly "slammed" forward and back with the working of the slide?

Peppa Cig · 10-11-2019 5:07pm

freddieot wrote: »

This is the one I have. Used it on my GP K22 (using a mount via the light rail) and sighted it in yesterday on my Beretta 1301, all with no issues. It fits a pic rail etc. so easy to mount. Box has the dot with rail and a height extender thing in case you want to co-witness on a rifle platform.

https://www.optics-trade.eu/en/vortex-crossfire-red-dot.html

Very reasonable money for what you get. I'd stick with Vortex, Trijicon or even some of the more expensive brands and only cry once etc.

Any pics of it on K22?

Thanks

freddieot · 10-11-2019 8:07pm

Peppa Cig wrote: »

Any pics of it on K22?

Thanks

No, never bothered, and now the Vortex is on the Shotgun but this is the link to the supplier website (lots of pics). Looks good on the X-Trim

https://www.umtactical.com/store/p3/UM3_Sight_Mount.html

freddieot · 10-11-2019 8:10pm

Cass, I've seen a few reflex sights mounted the way you mention. I'd wonder if they can stand up to the recoil unless you pay big bucks. Have a word with Grizz. He was using one last Saturday at the Bullseye.

Wadi14 · 10-11-2019 11:54pm

https://www.optics-trade.eu/en/vortex-venom-red-dot.html, they are for sale in Ireland but as you know Irish RFD don't put prices up on the web site just incase they might sell it too cheap by mistake.
I have 2 red dots a reflex 3 moa and a Multi Dot tube 2,4,6 and 8 moa. the reflex is Chinese and the tube is Delta optical which is made in the bushnell factory, both work well but only used on rimfire.
When it comes to dot size I use 2moa for precision comps the dot is small and a bit harder to find if your shooting timed practices, for timed I used 3 or 4 moa. The 6 or 8 moa dots would be used more for IPSC or steel shooing where time is of the essence basically blanking a big area of a target and firing.
One other thing that is helpful when shooting a quality red dot sight is the dot does not have to be centered in the glass if your zeroed and have the red dot on the target it will hit the target.
And by the way Cass if you still want to shoot your open sights, buy one of these
https://eyepalusa.com/ there's a guy in England selling them and they work.

Peppa Cig · 11-11-2019 7:55am

Are under Rail mounted lasers permitted in comps?

Guessing not.

Wadi14 · 11-11-2019 11:49am

In Gallery rifle and pistol events laser sights that project a beam of light onto the target are not permitted.

Grizzly 45 · 11-11-2019 1:41pm

I bought 3 different types to try on my Glock and Ruger.22.

Sutter GMBH generic red dot [Chinese copy] 50 euros
Sutterg GMBH 4 pattern X hair adjustable brightness sight Generic Chinese copy 30 euros
Doctor Optics copy 30 euros Wish.com from China.

In the lead sofar the generic Red dot from Sutter.
Why?It has an automatic beightness adjuster on the red dot,and activates once it has it's hood removed.So no forgetting to switch it on or off. It is now on my Ruger .22 and works fine there.Had it on the Glock,but the locking mount screw gave way to recoil and over tightning,sending the sight off for a flight a year ago on the pistol range.Sorted it by peening the bolt where it comes thru the mounting grip,but it is happier on the .22

Sutter[Generic] 4 pattern adjustable. Red coloured patterns.,Simple dot,X hair,Xhair and circle combined,roundel pattern they wash out in bright sunlight or on bright target boards.
Even on a grey day like today,I just tried it as I type this and it is impossible to pick up anyway fast any of the sight pics.
Maybe,it' better in green?I dunno,but It's meh on this one from me

Doctor optics copy.
JUNK! Didnt get a chance to zero it last month,and withdrew from the shoot,as the first test at 30 meters didnt even print on the board.! Zeroed it off a bench @15 and was getting passable zero groups,notwithstanding my eyesight and not shooting off a proper pistol rest.

This month,shots were all over the place,literally over the board,left,right,nothing on paper.The lazer has twisted itself out of alingement and isn't even showing on the screen,which chipped after four 9mm shots.

So it seems I'll be in the same market as you for somthing abit more expensive than Chinese rubbish.That stuff is fine for .22,airsoft,and air rifles.they dont seem to have the material build or strength for anything higher caliber,and neither are their electronics up to scratch to handle recoil above .22

Cass · 11-11-2019 5:42pm

That is the stuff i need to know. Recoil is going to be an issue and the cheap stuff is never a good idea, but its grand (for me

) that someone else took the chance on them.

Need to look at better stuff but without incurring the cost of a new pistol.

Grizzly 45 · 11-11-2019 10:17pm

I might try the Ivans stuff.They are copying our technology as well,but knowing them their electronics and sights are going to be rugged,without the high western price tag.
This looks like a copy of what I have from the Chinese on the Ruger. The Russkies rate this for CF, at 110 euros and
15 euros shipping to Ireland...How bad?

https://grey-shop.ru/Tactical-Modules/Russian-Army-Sights/Vomz-Red-Dot-Pilad-1x20M

clivej · 11-11-2019 10:25pm

Hi Cass,
I have red dot sights on both my restricted Shotguns and my Grand Power K22 XTrim.

The red dot sights on the shot guns are both cheapo's from EBay at £15 each. Very heavy recoil and never let me down yet and I managed to win (pump) and come 3rd (semi) at the NASRPC Nationals this year, using slugs. White cover is to keep the rain off as the dot will haze in the wet. BUT you must super glue the front reflex glass in place or it will move.

The red dot on my handgun is a Shield 3 MOA at £250. It has the correct 'Tee' mount for the K22 with a 10 MOA plastic battery cover underneath. A great sight for you and military grade.
The rear sight is removed and replaced with the Tee mount.
Available on EBay.
Custom trigger fitted.

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dc99 · 11-11-2019 11:14pm

Hi,
I have Docter RD on my Xesse IPSC and also the Vortex Venom on my Ruger Mk IV, both you would know do NOT have a reciprocating slide.

These were both around €230 or so (or was it pounds for the Vortex- ( https://www.uttings.co.uk/p124176-vortex-venom-red-dot-top-load/#.XcnVNtXgphE) I brought the 3moa version - 6 moa is available on this page as well.

Some things to remember is that most of them do not come with a mounting plate - the version I got of the Venom DOES have a Picatinny mtg. included with it.

The Docter Sight I had to pay another €70-00 approx for one the had an 11mm mount that fits onto the barrel sleeve on my Hammerli. (remember the IPSC version has a steel barrel shroud/outer part).

The build quality on both is very good and robust - the Vortex is covered by a lifetime replacement /repair warrenty (world wide?)
They are manufactured to withstand use on firearms and I would not hesitate to mount either on a slide - Check out Youtube and you might see some (heres one of a German fitting a vortex on and x5).

From my research the better makes are robust to take the centre fired versions and should handle the shock loads from the slide....going on stuff n YouTube.

Its worth noting that it would be better to mount the RD as low as possible i.e. not on a picatinny fitting above the slide. If you purchase a cheap knock off - they will not go the distance.

Another thing to know about RD's is that if you have an astigmatism condition in your eyes it will have an effect on how you perceive the dot. You will not see a clear dot you will see a starburst pattern, or a "bunch of grapes" pattern or some other thing. I have this in my eyes and it does not bother me too much. If I look through the distance part of my varifocals it becomes clearer.

Another thing to note is there is a transition adjustment you will need to make to bring the pistol up and on target.
You will need to practice coming up on target and acquiring the dot - yes acquiring the dot, then the target. you need to see where the dot is -cause that's where the round will land. the dot does not need to be in the centre of the little window (ie.e head position not in line- but no matter what if you have the gun and red dot sighted in that's where the round will land...if you follow.
My Docter has auto brightness and that is fine (I have it maybe 4 years now and i still haven changed the battery. The venom is new and has both auto and user defined functions.

So the MOA - this is the size of the dot -as an experienced shooter - you know that the MOA is the minute of angle at what 100feet ? (or is it yards??) well that's the size of the dot at the same distance - it will cover 3 Minutes of Angle at the 100 feet or yards. (I am deffo no expert but do understand it - I just can ream it off so I know I'm wrong in some of my measurements quoted here).

Now your shooting in 25m competitions so the dot will cover more of the intended target than it would at the 100. Most of the advice I' managed to see on YT says that for pistol shooting you go for the bigger dot - but that's NOT for competition shooting - thought it should be easier to Acquire the bigger dot - but it will be larger on the target. BOTH my RD's are 3moa (actually I think my Docter one is 3.5...)

For adjustment there is generally no adjustment on the size of the dot (not in my price range anyway) - you have the normal windage and vertical adjustment.

Sorry for rambling on, but I hope there is some info here that helps? (must go and look up the MOA distance thing is it 100 yrds or feet??)

Cass · 11-11-2019 11:52pm

@dc99 - Excellent information and answers most of my questions including the one about handling the action of the slide.

I have no data to support this but i'm assuming the "recoil" felt by the C/F pistols would be greater than the rimfires even though it's not actually recoil. Its the operation of the slide, but as said i'd imagine its slightly greater for C/F pistols than rimfire given the case load. So by all accounts above the cheaper may work, but only for a limited time which means go the extra bit and buy once - cry once.

I see one shop in particular selling the Vortex RD. No price, as usual, but its interesting you say you didn't get a slide mount as i'll need one to mount he RD where the rear sight sits. There are plenty to choose from and all seem nice and flat against the slide. It's just a matter of making sure the mount allows for the mounting of whatever RD i go for.

Am i right in assuming that while all mounts are based on the same design some will suit some brands but not others? Compare it to a rail for a Tikka or Savage with their angled and rounded actions needing a specific type of rail to say a Remington, or Howa with their "direct fit" style?

dc99 · 12-11-2019 12:28am

I found the mounting plate the hardest to acquire. I fully intended to remove the rear sight from my Mk IV hunter - which is mounted on a dovetail cut. (Again lots are a dovetail cut - but are they all the same??)
I did know from YT and the inter web, that the Burris made a number of mounts to fit their Fastfire RD to different pistols. And the drip hole pattern also matched the Vortex. I eventually found a reasonable one on EBay in the us that was ok to sell/send to me.

There are a few types or hole patterns for different makes (If you look at the Tandemkross retail site they make a universal mounting plate for a couple of rim fire pistols, but more importantly they have a comparison chart for the different makes that may help you when sourcing the set (mtg plate to rd).)
So your correct in different mtgs - except its the fitting to the slide (of your P226) and the drill hole pattern fort he RD (before I confuse myself and you - the holes are predrilled and also you will have protrusions to locate on the underside of the RD.

Other things to consider is that some RD’s require you to remove the RD to change the battery (which could be anywhere from once a year to once every couple of years....so not really an issue :-) Others have a top loading battery compartment.

One other thing occurs to me is the better makes will stand up to the riggers of the action and also - importantly hold zero.

I am shooting with a few guys that have brought the cheaper models and fitting them on to pistols that don’t have slides (like the sig or a 1911) and they seem to function fine over a period of time... but as i say with a slide the forces are greater etc.

Anything else occurs to you let me know - I spent a long time trying to find out as much as i could on rd’s. So i might have an answer.

I have the vortex venom link in my previous - for Uttings that is where i purchased mine from too.

clivej · 12-11-2019 9:10am

dc99
Another thing to note is there is a transition adjustment you will need to make to bring the pistol up and on target.
You will need to practice coming up on target and acquiring the dot - yes acquiring the dot, then the target. you need to see where the dot is -cause that's where the round will land

I found the best way to 'Find' the red dot and target is to look at the red dot in the 45 degree position and then bring the pistol up to the target whilst still looking at the red dot. NOT to be looking at the target and then bring the pistol up.

Works for me.

clivej · 12-11-2019 9:22am

CASS

I have this saddle mount (somewhere) that you can have to try out on ur handgun if you want.
See how the front sight can slide under the saddle mount.
I also have a red dot sight here as well if you want to give them a try

I can post it over

mnt-sa-605222-3.jpg

BattleCorp · 12-11-2019 10:06am

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Sutter GMBH generic red dot [Chinese copy] 50 euros

I bought this red dot (I think it was this one anyway) based on a link you provided in a previous thread. I'm not giving out, I find it an ok sight. It holds zero very well, no issues. It is only mounted on a .22 pistol though. It's very easy to see the red dot and the battery is lasting very well.

Two negatives though.

I find the red dot too big. It obscures too much of the target making. It easily covers the 9 and 10 ring so I don't know exactly where I am aiming. I'd prefer if the red dot was much smaller.

The second problem is only a problem on a spilling wet day. When the pistol is holstered, the lense housing is perfectly shaped to hold water so when you unholster and bring up the pistol, you are looking out through a puddle of water. Luckily for us rain is very rare here in Ireland.

dc99 · 12-11-2019 10:16am

clivej wrote: »

I found the best way to 'Find' the red dot and target is to look at the red dot in the 45 degree position and then bring the pistol up to the target whilst still looking at the red dot. NOT to be looking at the target and then bring the pistol up.

Works for me.

I do this most of the time too.just to get the wrist alignment correct.

Cass · 12-11-2019 1:11pm

clivej wrote: »

I have this saddle mount (somewhere) that you can have to try out on ur handgun if you want.
See how the front sight can slide under the saddle mount.
I also have a red dot sight here as well if you want to give them a try

I can post it over

A very generous offer Clivej and its much appreciated.

My problem with that type of mount, and the reason i had to look for custom ones, is the compensator on the front of the pistol.

The compensator mounts via the rail on the pistol lower. The compensator also provides two other functions.

Acts as the remaining inch of the slide which the barrel sits into
Carries the front site.

Now the front sight is not an issue when using a red dot, but i've never fired the pistol without the compensator and i'm not sure if i should.

The saddle mounts that are made for my exact model are designed with longer screws that allow the compensator to remain in place and attach the saddle mount through the compensator attachment holes and all of it to the lower rail.

I thought for a long time this is the only way i could mount something, but then it dawned on me, and it's blatantly obvious to everyone else, that all i had to do was remove the rear sight, place a mount in its place then fit the red dot.

This allows the compensator to remain in place and use the red dot.

As i said above i considered removing the compensator and getting a new 5.5" slide, but when i found out what i had to do to accomplish this it simply wasn't worth it.

On a side note i've the same problem with finding a holster. I had a lovely one from Sig for this exact model, but it was loaned, without my knowledge, to someone and i never seen it again. The compensator prevent me from buying a generic one and no other holster works right so i'm using a cheap one. Not because of price but the cheapy, airsoft type ones, are the only ones i can get to fit me pistol.

Might give that chap from Kydex Ireland a shout and see what he can do for me.

BattleCorp · 12-11-2019 1:16pm

Cass wrote: »

A very generous offer Clivej and its much appreciated.

My problem with that type of mount, and the reason i had to look for custom ones, is the compensator on the front of the pistol.

The compensator mounts via the rail on the pistol lower. The compensator also provides two other functions.
Acts as the remaining inch of the slide which the barrel sits into

Carries the front site.

Now the front sight is not an issue when using a red dot, but i've never fired the pistol without the compensator and i'm not sure if i should.

The saddle mounts that are made for my exact model are designed with longer screws that allow the compensator to remain in place and attach the saddle mount through the compensator attachment holes and all of it to the lower rail.

I thought for a long time this is the only way i could mount something, but then it dawned on me, and it's blatantly obvious to everyone else, that all i had to do was remove the rear sight, place a mount in its place then fit the red dot.

This allows the compensator to remain in place and use the red dot.

As i said above i considered removing the compensator and getting a new 5.5" slide, but when i found out what i had to do to accomplish this it simply wasn't worth it.

On a side note i've the same problem with finding a holster. I had a lovely one from Sig for this exact model, but it was loaned, without my knowledge, to someone and i never seen it again. The compensator prevent me from buying a generic one and no other holster works right so i'm using a cheap one. Not because of price but the cheapy, airsoft type ones, are the only ones i can get to fit me pistol.

Might give that chap from Kydex Ireland a shout and see what he can do for me.

Would a ghost holster not work?

Cass · 12-11-2019 1:33pm

I looked and tried a few, but the damn compensator rears its ugly head every time. Its why i wanted to buy a new slide.

It makes the distance from the barrel/bore to the underside of the compensator/pistol lower longer than normal. I considered buying one, and then welding/cutting and adapting it to work but with price tags of €100 to €200 i was not comfortable cutting them up and would rather spend that type of money on a fitted one.

On the slide issue, just FYI, i was told by DoJ and An Gardaí that i had to:

Remove my old slide and mark it as defective
Send it to the manufacturer and have them confirm it's defective
Get the import and other paperwork to import the new slide

So while compensator can be a PITA at times (only when it comes to accessories, not functionally) the above process means i'd lose my current slide, the compensator would be useless, and the gun would no longer be what i bought.

IOW i cannot have "spare parts" for my pistol because, you know, after 30 years of shooting and giving up every personal detail of my life to be legal and licensed i still cannot be trusted. :rolleyes:

Grizzly 45 · 12-11-2019 9:08pm

The red dot sights on the shot guns are both cheapo's from EBay at £15 each. Very heavy recoil and never let me down yet and I managed to win (pump) and come 3rd (semi) at the NASRPC Nationals this year, using slugs. White cover is to keep the rain off as the dot will haze in the wet. BUT you must super glue the front reflex glass in place or it will move.

Clive,can I ask how do you find these sights in bright daylight?Thiis is the exact same sight that I have described in my post as item 2,and I find even on a grey day in Ireland that it is almost impossible to pick up the sight rings?Also is it a red or green sight picture?
TIA.
Grizz.

clivej · 13-11-2019 2:24pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Clive,can I ask how do you find these sights in bright daylight?Thiis is the exact same sight that I have described in my post as item 2,and I find even on a grey day in Ireland that it is almost impossible to pick up the sight rings?Also is it a red or green sight picture?
TIA.
Grizz.

Hi Grizz,
It is the cheapo sights your thinking of ????

I've never had a problem using them in all the years. Had one on my AW93 handgun (years ago now) and 1 on each of my shotguns. There are brightness settings and I always use the top high setting, red and green dot, with 4 reticle types
I hear ppl on the line in comps. saying they can't see their red dots but not for me.
Just lately I've cut out old credit cards to shape to use as a rain cover held on with duct tape, but have yet to try them out. They could also keep the sun off the sights.

I must have inbuilt 'IR' eyes.........

Cass · 17-11-2019 4:42pm

Been perusing the interweb for various makes and models and i like the look and price of the Hawke range. They have everything from €130 to €230 in a range of dot sizes, brightness, etc. and all are pistol/all caliber rated.

The only drawback on this is they are all weaver based red dots. Every other brand is or seems to be direct mount or via a mount plate. Now i've found many mounts that will easily work on the Sig, but none are Weaver or picatinny.

So does anyone know of any adaptor or mount that has a weaver or picatinny base that can be attached via the "groove" for the rear sight and without any gunsmithing. I'm not opposed to having the gun worked on, but with so many options that don't require gunsmithing (a permanent change to the gun) i'd much sooner look at fitting a base than gunsmithing.

Cass · 09-12-2019 12:29pm

So i'm trying to order a reflex sight, grips and perhaps a few more accessories.

Seems Sightark are a reasonable price and depending on the model are well up to the job. Have to wait till after Christmas before ordering (i was told it "might" be a present) but either way i'll have something to report on in January.

Any other suggestions feel free to post.

Cass · 27-12-2019 3:12pm

Bit of an update.

I ordered the grips, Hogue, and they arrived. Completely change the feel of the pistol and gives an immediate and noticeable better grip, control and aim of the pistol.

With Christmas, etc. i never got around to ordering a red dot/reflex so am now focusing on getting it sorted in the coming weeks. Have settled on the Vortex Venom, as recommended by dc99. The Viper is the ame price, but i've read reviews on the low mounting position being only for cut slides so i'll stick to the venom..

Now onto my question. dc99 also went into detail about a mounting plate, but can someone point me to the correct one for a Sig P226. I've seen plenty of them, but my concern is they won't "fit" with the mounting points of the Venom. Any links would be appreciated.

dc99 · 27-12-2019 9:58pm

Hi Cass,

As a help if yoiu look at he following page; https://www.tandemkross.com/Shadow-Mount-V20-for-SW22®-Victory™-_p_509.html

You can see the main RD players drill patterns or mtg holes for RD’s (I thought there would be more that this initially) I know you are mtg it on a Sig P226 and I am assuming its on a standard 226 slide (not cut to take a plate) in place off the Dove tail cut where the existing rear sight is placed.

Then go to the Burris Optic site (https://www.burrisoptics.com/mounting-systems/mounts-and-bases/fastfire-mounts) I know for a fact that the Venom fits the mount pattern for the Burris Fast fire II as it is a Burris FF mtg plate I used for my Venom on my Ruger Mk IV. Double check it on the first link on the Tandemkross page.

Do not go by the picture on the Burris page - it does not seem to change no matter which fire arm you choose in the drop down. (410327 is the part number listed for the sig p226.) So if you can source a Burris mtg plate you have the correct part number for it now to confirm you are wondering the correct plate.
So the hard part is finding someone willing to ship you a mtg to Ireland - unless you have contacts etc. (I managed to get mine on ebay from the US...Fecking ITAR!!)

However there are many mounts made for the different RD manufactures - also be very aware there there are locating knobs on most of them to like I have 4 knobs - one on each corner of the mtg plate to help locate the RED Dot correctly and then 2 screw holes to clamp through the RD body, the plate and into the small dove tail plate (once tightened it clamps the small dove tail plate into the dove cut)
I also sourced this from the vortex site https://vortexoptics.com/amfile/file/download/file_id/792/product_id/1653/ its the dims fo the holes etc. so if you can source a different mtg plate for the Venom - you can confirm the mtg pattern.
Hope this helps a bit?

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Pistol red dot.

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Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County