Ireland & the Single Market post Brexit

fly_agaric · 08-01-2021 1:01pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

It's an absolute sh*tshow at the moment and complete silence from the government.

If you mean Irish government (Irish site & all that) they IMO really did their best to inform, advise, offer help etc. to business over last 4 years. What is there to say?

I posted on other thread yesterday (got deleted in the thread split) that if businesses are still having problems now despite all the warnings, maybe the government should have intervened directly to force changes given it must have been cheaper/easier for businesses to do nothing about the risk till the evil day comes. Too late for that to help with disruption in the short term though.

grayzer75 · 08-01-2021 1:05pm

Hurrache wrote: »

I'm in contact with someone on a Brexit team for a company and he regularly mentions how many of their trucks are stopped. It's happening, but certainly not at 5% of what it was previously.

1 truck missing from Lidl doesn't mean that there's only 5% of shipments getting through.

I said there is currently 5% of the usual movements getting through because nothing is moving.

I gave you one example of what's widely happening in the supermarkets.

I'm sitting in the transport office of a haulage company so I know first hand what is happening - the sh*t is about to hit the fan from the hauliers as they are losing moving hand over first without movements.

We would easily have 10 trucks per day tipping loads out of the UK, it's now Friday and we've had 3 all week.

Hurrache · 08-01-2021 1:07pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

We would easily have 10 trucks per day tipping loads out of the UK, it's now Friday and we've had 3 all week.

That would seem to the fault of your clients and the British government though?

Take a look at the jokers in M&S for example, they can't even get their goods into the north due to their monumental procrastination about being in any way proactive.

https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1347512234520539137

grayzer75 · 08-01-2021 1:09pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

If you mean Irish government (Irish site & all that) they IMO really did their best to inform, advise, offer help etc. to business over last 4 years. What is there to say?

I posted on other thread yesterday (got deleted in the thread split) that if businesses are still having problems now despite all the warnings, maybe the government should have intervened directly to force changes given it must have been cheaper/easier for businesses to do nothing about the risk till the evil day comes. Too late for that to help with disruption in the short term though.

Maybe if the Irish government had the ball to call out the UK over what's going on at the moment it would help. And contrary to what Revenue are saying, their systems are working very well either.

Hurrache · 08-01-2021 1:10pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

Maybe if the Irish government had the ball to call out the UK over what's going on at the moment it would help.

If anyone was following Brexit and the discussions involved, even in the slightest, they'd have seen the weekly, almost daily, criticism from the Irish government and state bodies about what it was going to lead to.

grayzer75 · 08-01-2021 1:12pm

Hurrache wrote: »

That would seem to the fault of your clients and the British government though?

Take a look at the jokers in M&S for example, they can't even get their goods into the north due to their monumental procrastination about being in any way proactive.

https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1347512234520539137

Our clients are the major supermarkets and distributors both sides of the Irish sea. The hauliers are being pushed very close to the edge on this and the first thing that will impact is the cost of transporting the goods into Ireland so you can expect price rises in the not to distant future if this continues.

Hurrache · 08-01-2021 1:12pm

That's Brexit for you, should be absolutely no news or surprise to anyone, particularly those in the industry.

grayzer75 · 08-01-2021 1:13pm

Hurrache wrote: »

If anyone was following Brexit and the discussions involved, even in the slightest, they'd have seen the weekly, almost daily, criticism from the Irish government and state bodies about what it was going to lead to.

I haven't heard a thing since the 1st of January now that we're in the middle of this mess.

fly_agaric · 08-01-2021 1:13pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

Maybe if the Irish government had the ball to call out the UK over what's going on at the moment it would help.

I'm not at coal face of this (as you seem to be given your posts) but I doubt it myself. The UK government does not seem to be in a cooperative & helpful mood of late. (well I say of late, but its been getting worse for years now of course)

Hurrache · 08-01-2021 1:17pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

I haven't heard a thing since the 1st of January now that we're in the middle of this mess.

There's been plenty of comment, but the reality is that it's all on the British government and those who have been unprepared.

grayzer75 · 08-01-2021 1:19pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

I'm not at coal face of this (as you seem to be given your posts) but I doubt it myself. The UK government does not seem to be in a cooperative & helpful mood of late. (well I say of late, but its been getting worse for years now of course)

The UK have given themselves a transition period until July to work out their end of it whereas the EU went hard on the rules from the 1st of Jan that's why it's a mess.

There needs to be a lot more noise out of Dublin on this - aimed at the EU and UK or there'll be a lot of hauliers go to the wall.

grayzer75 · 08-01-2021 1:20pm

Hurrache wrote: »

There's been plenty of comment, but the reality is that it's all on the British government and those who have been unprepared.

That's no good for Irish hauliers or consumers - one will go out of business and the other will have limited choice on the supermarket shelves.

08-01-2021 1:21pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

The UK have given themselves a transition period until July to work out their end of it whereas the EU went hard on the rules from the 1st of Jan that's why it's a mess.

There needs to be a lot more noise out of Dublin on this - aimed at the EU and UK or there'll be a lot of hauliers go to the wall.

???

A50 ended last year, we had a 1 year transition period. The UK refused to ask for another (it was not in the gift of the EU to offer).

The customs requirements have been visible to all and plain to see for a long time now. This falls squarely at the feet of those who refused the acknowledge reality.

Hurrache · 08-01-2021 1:22pm

It's ****ty, but was telegraphed for years as a reality of Brexit.

grayzer75 · 08-01-2021 1:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

???

A50 ended last year, we had a 1 year transition period. The UK refused to ask for another (it was not in the gift of the EU to offer).

The customs requirements have been visible to all and plain to see for a long time now. This falls squarely at the feet of those who refused the acknowledge reality.

No a transition from the EU but a transition on documentation and declarations of goods entering the UK.

The requirements didn't become clear until the 1st of Jan and they're still not fully clear on certain movements e.g. groupage transiting through Dublin and onwards to NI - that's very very cumbersome at the moment.

The UK don't care about freight moving this way that's why they didn't prepare so we need Dublin to start making more noise about that.

Hurrache · 08-01-2021 1:28pm

There's been plenty of Irish state campaigns, ranging from news and radio, print media, social media, internet.
e.g.
https://www.gov.ie/en/campaigns/b2c18-getting-ireland-brexit-ready
https://www.dfa.ie/brexit/getting-ireland-brexit-ready/

The Irish state and government can't be found to be at fault.

There's even a checklist for hauliers
https://revenue.ie/en/online-services/services/customs/customs-roro-service.aspx

08-01-2021 1:30pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

No a transition from the EU but a transition on documentation and declarations of goods entering the UK.

The requirements didn't become clear until the 1st of Jan and they're still not fully clear on certain movements e.g. groupage transiting through Dublin and onwards to NI - that's very very cumbersome at the moment.

The UK don't care about freight moving this way that's why they didn't prepare so we need Dublin to start making more noise about that.

The UK had signalled years ago that it was leaving the SM and CU and was becoming a 3rd Country.

No trade deal was ever to change any of that! It had been flagged well in advance, hence the headlines regarding the UK hiring 50k customs officers etc.

Any company which has ignored this is going to suffer. We've had years of ads from Government, Government initiatives to "Get Brexit Ready", Government Grants and Brexit specific loans.

The unprepared ignored all of these and still blame govt?

grayzer75 · 08-01-2021 1:32pm

Hurrache wrote: »

There's been plenty of Irish state campaigns, ranging from news and radio, print media, social media, internet.
e.g.
https://www.gov.ie/en/campaigns/b2c18-getting-ireland-brexit-ready
https://www.dfa.ie/brexit/getting-ireland-brexit-ready/

The Irish state and government can't be found to be at fault.

That's grand so, we'll ignore the fact that the Irish hauliers are stuck in the the middle of one side who thinks everything is rosie with nothing else to do and the other who doesn't give a ****e what happens with regard to Irish hauliers or consumers because they got their Brexit.

fly_agaric · 08-01-2021 1:34pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

The UK have given themselves a transition period until July to work out their end of it whereas the EU went hard on the rules from the 1st of Jan that's why it's a mess.

There needs to be a lot more noise out of Dublin on this - aimed at the EU and UK or there'll be a lot of hauliers go to the wall.

There may need to be more support from our government to Irish hauliers (I don't know) but as regards the EU, the UK refused the real + agreed with EU extension they could have availed of, during a global disease pandemic too, purely for domestic political reasons. They are just ignoring rules and letting things slide on their side till July (if they need to to keep imports moving) afaik.

swampgas · 08-01-2021 1:36pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

That's grand so, we'll ignore the fact that the Irish hauliers are stuck in the the middle of one side who thinks everything is rosie with nothing else to do and the other who doesn't give a ****e what happens with regard to Irish hauliers or consumers because they got their Brexit.

The hauliers are stuck in the middle, but this is all on the UK govt and the UK suppliers not being ready. They voted for it, they got it.

Like a lot of other people, the hauliers are more collateral damage in England's identity crisis and culture war with the EU.

08-01-2021 1:36pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

That's grand so, we'll ignore the fact that the Irish hauliers are stuck in the the middle of one side who thinks everything is rosie with nothing else to do and the other who doesn't give a ****e what happens with regard to Irish hauliers or consumers because they got their Brexit.

I don't understand what you think the Government can do here? Like what actual changes do you think that they could do which would improve things?

Not a "talk to Brussels" type of answer, but an actual tangible change that they could make?

Hurrache · 08-01-2021 1:36pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

That's grand so, we'll ignore the fact that the Irish hauliers are stuck in the the middle of one side who thinks everything is rosie with nothing else to do and the other who doesn't give a ****e what happens with regard to Irish hauliers or consumers because they got their Brexit.

Nobody on the Irish side thinks anything is rosie, like I said, they've been saying for years it won't be.

grayzer75 · 08-01-2021 1:38pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

There may need to be more support from government (I don't know) but as regards the EU, the UK refused the real + agreed with EU extension they could have availed of, during a global disease pandemic too, purely for domestic political reasons. They are just ignoring rules and letting things slide on their side till July (if they need to to keep imports moving) afaik.

We are are feeling the impact of the UK not getting ready for exports of foodstuffs to Ireland and they couldn't care less about us or rules from what I've seen. They have no where near enough vets to seal trailers and they can't attract any more from the EU.

grayzer75 · 08-01-2021 1:48pm

Apologies if I'm coming across sharp at times but it's been a horrendous week this week aargh lol.

08-01-2021 1:50pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

Apologies if I'm coming across sharp at times but it's been a horrendous week this week aargh lol.

the frustration is obvious!

fly_agaric · 08-01-2021 1:56pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

Apologies if I'm coming across sharp at times but it's been a horrendous week this week aargh lol.

No problem, I sympathise (not that it is much good to you).

Gerry T · 08-01-2021 2:13pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

Most of EU to Ireland still comes through UK as there is nowhere near enough capacity on direct routes and the landbridge is quicker/cheaper.

There won't be much movement from Irl to UK very soon as all the trailers are sitting in the UK at them moment.

Dublin port had major works to take the MV Celine and sister ship Laureline. The Celine has 8km of lane space and the Laureline 5.5Km, the Celine being the worlds largest short sea RoRo ship. Then DFDS has 2 sailings a day 6 days a week to Dunkirk that's just started. There's many more changes with some ships just moving from delivering to a UK port to an EU one. From what I've read we have moved 80% of our shipping direct to the EU.
The problem is UK exports, it seems their not in any way prepared, there are little to no queues at their ports but their trucks aren't leaving because of customs issues. Ireland just happens to be the UK's 5th largest export country with 10% of all their exports coming here, Irish importers really need to look at switching supplier as this mess is only going to get far worse as volumes at UK ports increase.
But very little Irish exports are using the landbridge.

Pablo Escobar · 08-01-2021 2:26pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

No a transition from the EU but a transition on documentation and declarations of goods entering the UK.

The requirements didn't become clear until the 1st of Jan and they're still not fully clear on certain movements e.g. groupage transiting through Dublin and onwards to NI - that's very very cumbersome at the moment.

The UK don't care about freight moving this way that's why they didn't prepare so we need Dublin to start making more noise about that.

That's not true. The UK made it clear that they were leaving the Customs Union 4 years ago. And the fact that the protocol (which is now a year old) kept NI in the CU meant that this was clear. It has nothing to do with the deal.

FreudianSlippers · 08-01-2021 2:26pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't understand what you think the Government can do here? Like what actual changes do you think that they could do which would improve things?

Not a "talk to Brussels" type of answer, but an actual tangible change that they could make?

Frustration aside, which is understandable from grayzer75, I do believe that if one is going to blanket blame the Irish Government for this they could have an answer to this question even remotely.

ancapailldorcha · 08-01-2021 2:29pm

Mod: Please do not just paste links. A post has been removed.

grayzer75 · 08-01-2021 2:30pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Frustration aside, which is understandable from grayzer75, I do believe that if one is going to blanket blame the Irish Government for this they could have an answer to this question even remotely.

Oh I'm not blaming the Irish government, the blame lies squarely in Whitehall but I'd like to see Irish government ministers challenging their counterparts on what's happening here and now.

At the end of the day the big fallout will have to be paid for by the Irish consumers as the haulage costs rise and rise as a result of the British mismanagement of the process.

grayzer75 · 08-01-2021 2:33pm

Pablo Escobar wrote: »

That's not true. The UK made it clear that they were leaving the Customs Union 4 years ago. And the fact that the protocol (which is now a year old) kept NI in the CU meant that this was clear. It has nothing to do with the deal.

You try moving food groupage from the UK to NI via ROI and come back to me - it's not working because nobody seems to know what the process is. You will get a different answer depending on who you talk to.

Hurrache · 08-01-2021 2:43pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

Oh I'm not blaming the Irish government, the blame lies squarely in Whitehall but I'd like to see Irish government ministers challenging their counterparts on what's happening here and now.

There were negotiations for years in advance on this. It's what the tory government want, even though it has a detrimental affect on their own business, nothing is going to change that.

grayzer75 wrote: »

it's not working because nobody seems to know what the process is. to.

It's here
https://revenue.ie/en/online-services/services/customs/customs-roro-service.aspx
https://revenue.ie/en/customs-traders-and-agents/brexit/advice-for-truck-drivers/index.aspx

View · 08-01-2021 3:02pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

Oh I'm not blaming the Irish government, the blame lies squarely in Whitehall but I'd like to see Irish government ministers challenging their counterparts on what's happening here and now.

At the end of the day the big fallout will have to be paid for by the Irish consumers as the haulage costs rise and rise as a result of the British mismanagement of the process.

The solution to the latter issue was and is for importers here to replace products from the U.K. with products from the rest of the EU, with the latter arriving into Ireland via direct shipping from the rest of the EU (ie not via the U.K. landbridge).

It is unreasonable to expect consumers and businesses here to pick up the tab for headaches (and costs) arising for importers who ignored what was coming down the tracks.

And, yes, the government should have had, and should continue to have, those importers into government offices to make it clear they would be/will be hit by massive fines if they attempt to pass on any such increased costs due to Brexit because they insist on importing from the U.K.

FreudianSlippers · 08-01-2021 3:09pm

View wrote: »

The solution to the latter issue was and is for importers here to replace products from the U.K. with products from the rest of the EU, with the latter arriving into Ireland via direct shipping from the rest of the EU (ie not via the U.K. landbridge).

It is unreasonable to expect consumers and businesses here to pick up the tab for headaches (and costs) arising for importers who ignored what was coming down the tracks.

And, yes, the government should have had, and should continue to have, those importers into government offices to make it clear they would be/will be hit by massive fines if they attempt to pass on any such increased costs due to Brexit because they insist on importing from the U.K.

I will say one thing, although Ireland is a small market, I would have anticipated someone at Amazon would have said "maybe it's not that they like buying these things from the UK" and would have set up some way for Irish consumers to be directed to an EU site, or at least made that process to purchase from an EU Amazon easier.

paul71 · 08-01-2021 3:29pm

grayzer75 wrote: »

You try moving food groupage from the UK to NI via ROI and come back to me - it's not working because nobody seems to know what the process is. You will get a different answer depending on who you talk to.

I would dare to say that groupage from the UK is finished in the form we are accustomed to it. Small and medium firms in the UK do not have the software or expertise to deal with the requirements for exports outside their new customs union (England, Wales and Scotland).

Hurrache · 08-01-2021 3:38pm

It's a mess Europe wide, the common denominator being the UK
https://twitter.com/Joe_Mayes/status/1347463862510092295

Stuff like this is still happening

a customer sent them a pallet of manufactured goods to go to France, but didn't provide any accompanying documents, because they didn't think anything needed to be done differently

...

As one logistics source put it: Britain is suddenly having to put customs paperwork on all of its fast-moving, cross-channel trade with the EU, overnight. And the system is already creaking

An Ciarraioch · 08-01-2021 4:01pm

Missed this yesterday, but Cork-Zeebrugge just launched its service, which should ease the pressure on Rosslare:

https://twitter.com/PortofCork/status/1347136361107750914

BorneTobyWilde · 08-01-2021 4:01pm

Can a truck travel empty going out of Ireland with out the need for customs declaration ?

Hurrache · 08-01-2021 4:02pm

There's nothing to declare for so probably yes, but it makes no financial sense to do so.

L1011 · 08-01-2021 9:11pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Missed this yesterday, but Cork-Zeebrugge just launched its service, which should ease the pressure on Rosslare:

https://twitter.com/PortofCork/status/1347136361107750914

It launched in either 2019 or 2020; this is just an additional sailing.

Unaccompanied con-ro (containers and moving vehicles) means that its not targeting much of the same business as Rosslare.

Rosslare is a ro-ro (moving vehicles only) port and the traditional traffic was accompanied - driver travels with truck.

I don't think any ports other than Dublin, Rosslare and Cork have linkspans for ro-ro - well, Dun Laoghaire did but I think its gone and we're not going back to bringing port traffic in to the town centre.

Waterford Port said they'd build one if the landbridge became unattractive - now's your time lads!

Podge_irl · 08-01-2021 9:23pm

A lot of customs duties would be VAT as that is levied where the product is consumed. However there is an EU-wide VAT scheme. They are not tariffs.

fly_agaric · 08-01-2021 9:31pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

A lot of customs duties would be VAT as that is levied where the product is consumed. However there is an EU-wide VAT scheme. They are not tariffs.

Here be dragons and all that (+ now going far away from Brexit), but I think VAT is an entirely separate tax. Like Customs it is largely defined at the EU level, but really nothing to do with the Customs duty/tariffs. There is VAT on imports to the EU (so Irish VAT on the stuff coming from UK for us).

https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/goods-and-services-to-and-from-abroad/imports/when-is-vat-payable-on-importation.aspx

Podge_irl · 08-01-2021 9:59pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

Here be dragons and all that (+ now going far away from Brexit), but I think VAT is an entirely separate tax. Like Customs it is largely defined at the EU level, but really nothing to do with the Customs duty/tariffs. There is VAT on imports to the EU (so Irish VAT on the stuff coming from UK for us).

https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/goods-and-services-to-and-from-abroad/imports/when-is-vat-payable-on-importation.aspx

Fair enough, I'm incredibly far from an expert. But I think what most people end up calling customs duty will in fact just be an incorrect name for VAT. That's certainly what I end up paying every time I import things into Switzerland. People end up calling everything paid to import as customs just cause of poor nomenclature.

paul71 · 08-01-2021 10:06pm

fly_agaric wrote: »

Here be dragons and all that (+ now going far away from Brexit), but I think VAT is an entirely separate tax. Like Customs it is largely defined at the EU level, but really nothing to do with the Customs duty/tariffs. There is VAT on imports to the EU (so Irish VAT on the stuff coming from UK for us).

https://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/goods-and-services-to-and-from-abroad/imports/when-is-vat-payable-on-importation.aspx

Correct, if you are importing something from the uk you "potentially" could be paying 1. VAT 2. A tariff 3. Excise duty 4. An administration fee if you are using an agent

What you pay will depend on the type of goods and its origin.

If you are a VAT registered entity you can reclaim the VAT element on your VAT return, the other 3 items are cost of purchase and cannot be reclaimed.

(Sorry to the Mods if the posts belong in the other thread)

Ogham · 08-01-2021 10:07pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Fair enough, I'm incredibly far from an expert. But I think what most people end up calling customs duty will in fact just be an incorrect name for VAT. That's certainly what I end up paying every time I import things into Switzerland. People end up calling everything paid to import as customs just cause of poor nomenclature.

THis might help (sorry if it's already been posted)
https://www.moneyguideireland.com/irish-customs-duty-on-uk-online-purchases.html

embraer170 · 08-01-2021 10:16pm

L1011 wrote: »

It launched in either 2019 or 2020; this is just an additional sailing.

Unaccompanied con-ro (containers and moving vehicles) means that its not targeting much of the same business as Rosslare.

Rosslare is a ro-ro (moving vehicles only) port and the traditional traffic was accompanied - driver travels with truck.

I don't think any ports other than Dublin, Rosslare and Cork have linkspans for ro-ro - well, Dun Laoghaire did but I think its gone and we're not going back to bringing port traffic in to the town centre.

Waterford Port said they'd build one if the landbridge became unattractive - now's your time lads!

I would say the immigration/customs infrastructure for ro-ro is probably more of a barrier than a linkspan.

BonnieSituation · 08-01-2021 10:18pm

looksee wrote: »

Leave.eu may have moved their registered address to Waterford but they haven't changed that information on their webpage. Possibly wisely.

Meanwhile 2 out of 2 orders that I thought I was ordering stuff from Ireland and it turns out its coming from a distribution centre / premises in the UK. And in both cases was dismally delayed, with a lack of communication from either firm. How long before Irish suppliers are obliged to specify that goods are in fact being ordered/shipped from the UK when they advertise stuff for sale here?

yagan wrote: »

That's really frustrating. I stopping ordering stuff from the UK back in November but have been looking at similar stuff advertised an .ie site, but now you've made me double check.

Happened me with an order with Screwfix.ie before Christmas. I had assumed it was coming from an Irish centre until the shipping ID was sent to me. No indication at any point that it would be fulfilled in the West Midlands.

Definitely will be more careful going forward.

fly_agaric · 08-01-2021 10:42pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

Fair enough, I'm incredibly far from an expert.

As said, nor I. It gets into the weeds of taxation and customs bureaucracy no one really wants to (or should have to) consider unless they need to for their job. Suppose thanks to Brexit a lot more people will be exposed to it whether they like it or not! Maybe Brexit has an educational/self improvement dividend I hadn't appreciated!

Imreoir2 · 08-01-2021 10:52pm

embraer170 wrote: »

I would say the immigratio/customs infrastructure for ro-ro is probably more of a barrier than a linkspan.

Plenty of empty space around Waterford port, so no restrictions on new infrastructure if needed.

Ireland & the Single Market post Brexit

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