Interdepartmental Higher Executive Officer 2020 - (Serving Civil Servants ONLY)

2ndcoming · 26-02-2021 1:53pm

doc22 wrote: »

But I'd say the CS 70+% of the CS are women:pac:

Not far off it, but 60% at HEO level isn't an issue. There are something like 73% proportion of CO's, but I think it's fair to say a higher proportion of female CO's have no interest in entering promotion competitions anyway.

Cossie44 · 26-02-2021 2:46pm

Sometimes I think I clicked the wrong thread when I look for an update on this comp

lucat · 26-02-2021 2:48pm

This thread has gone off topic a bit.

I have a question for anyone who has sat the SJT already. How accurate is the example given in the pre-test information booklet? Do you get the 6 options to rate from 'Highly Undesirable' to 'Highly Desirable'? This means you could give two statements the same rating if you wanted to.

2ndcoming · 26-02-2021 2:54pm

Cossie44 wrote: »

Sometimes I think I clicked the wrong thread when I look for an update on this comp

You'll be updated by PAS, but expect progress to be glacial. I went through an interdepartmental comp a good few years ago and it took a full calendar year from start to finish, and that was without the Covid complications.

Seriously, this is a discussion forum, coming here for updates is like looking for news on a local facebook group.

RC01 · 26-02-2021 3:09pm

lucat wrote: »

This thread has gone off topic a bit.

I have a question for anyone who has sat the SJT already. How accurate is the example given in the pre-test information booklet? Do you get the 6 options to rate from 'Highly Undesirable' to 'Highly Desirable'? This means you could give two statements the same rating if you wanted to.

Yes this is correct you can give two or more statements the same rating. It was quite straightforward, only one scenario's responses threw me a bit.

lucat · 26-02-2021 3:59pm

RC01 wrote: »

Yes this is correct you can give two or more statements the same rating. It was quite straightforward, only one scenario's responses threw me a bit.

Thanks, that's a relief! My default position would be that you can give the same rating but you shouldn't. Was that your impression? Or were there some that were obviously meant to be the same one?

RC01 · 26-02-2021 4:21pm

lucat wrote: »

Thanks, that's a relief! My default position would be that you can give the same rating but you shouldn't. Was that your impression? Or were there some that were obviously meant to be the same one?

I had one scenario where I gave three the same rating. I don't think they should all have different but that is just my view, I'm no expert and it's my first HEO competition.

Dublintigger · 26-02-2021 5:40pm

Hi Folks

Staying on track here - I have just completed the sample test in Sova, can I ask those who have done the online test - is the layout/format the same?

Or is the layout/ format the same as the Info booklet on page 9?

Also - when I did the test, there was no feedback as how I did in the sample? So how will I know if I am on the right path?

RC01 · 26-02-2021 5:49pm

Dublintigger wrote: »

Hi Folks

Staying on track here - I have just completed the sample test in Sova, can I ask those who have done the online test - is the layout/format the same?

Or is the layout/ format the same as the Info booklet on page 9?

Also - when I did the test, there was no feedback as how I did in the sample? So how will I know if I am on the right path?

Sorry I didn't do any tests ones so I'm not much help. All i can say is there is a scenario followed by a number of statements of actions you would take based on the scenerio. You rate each scenario with one of 6 options-
Highly undesirable, undesirable, slightly undesirable, slightly desirable, desirable, highly desirable. Best of luck.

lucat · 26-02-2021 6:00pm

Dublintigger wrote: »

Hi Folks

Staying on track here - I have just completed the sample test in Sova, can I ask those who have done the online test - is the layout/format the same?

Or is the layout/ format the same as the Info booklet on page 9?

Also - when I did the test, there was no feedback as how I did in the sample? So how will I know if I am on the right path?

I thought it's SHL this time, not Sova?

Dublintigger · 26-02-2021 6:06pm

RC01 wrote: »

Sorry I didn't do any tests ones so I'm not much help. All i can say is there is a scenario followed by a number of statements of actions you would take based on the scenerio. You rate each scenario with one of 6 options-
Highly undesirable, undesirable, slightly undesirable, slightly desirable, desirable, highly desirable. Best of luck.

Thank you.

Did anyone do the pre test samples?

redmgar · 26-02-2021 6:19pm

Was there any?

Kenevil · 26-02-2021 8:14pm

Dublintigger wrote: »

Thank you.

Did anyone do the pre test samples?

I did pretests but like yourself no results from the shl one ðŸ€·*♀️

Dublintigger · 28-02-2021 6:08pm

lucat wrote: »

I thought it's SHL this time, not Sova?

I didnt get a link for the practice Lucat, thats why I did the Sova practice.

Dagner88 · 01-03-2021 12:14am

Did the 1(b) just there. Some questions I had same answer for one or two of them like others have mentioned previously. Hopefully I did enough to pass. Would anyone have a rough idea of how long we will have to wait before getting results for 1(a) and 1 (b)?

Dublintigger · 01-03-2021 8:04am

Dagner88 wrote: »

Did the 1(b) just there. Some questions I had same answer for one or two of them like others have mentioned previously. Hopefully I did enough to pass. Would anyone have a rough idea of how long we will have to wait before getting results for 1(a) and 1 (b)?

Well done - how did you find it and did it take you long to do it?
Any hints or tips that you can share?

Dagner88 · 01-03-2021 8:36am

Dublintigger wrote: »

Well done - how did you find it and did it take you long to do it?
Any hints or tips that you can share?

I did practice ones but they were a different format to what the test actually was so not sure if it was much use.
The scenarios are you as a manager so you have to think what scenarios are most desirable, desirable, slightly undesirable, etc., if you were already a heo. Hope this helps

Dublintigger · 01-03-2021 10:25am

Dagner88 wrote: »

I did practice ones but they were a different format to what the test actually was so not sure if it was much use.
The scenarios are you as a manager so you have to think what scenarios are most desirable, desirable, slightly undesirable, etc., if you were already a heo. Hope this helps

Thanks Dagan
I guess that means read the Q as if an HEO, understand the complexities and don't get bogged down in irrelevant details or act instinctively - be objective and act as an HEO.

caarp · 01-03-2021 5:57pm

In relation to the link that is in the email we received from PAS, can you access it more than once, as in, can I go look at the material today and then do the actual test tomorrow? Also, just wanted to double-check, is this test timed? MTIA.

Chase3 · 01-03-2021 6:01pm

When I clink the link, it asks me to create an account? Did they give login details?

eroc79 · 01-03-2021 6:36pm

Chase3 wrote: »

When I clink the link, it asks me to create an account? Did they give login details?

Same. The link brought me to a login page where I created an account and went from there.

Dagner88 · 01-03-2021 6:38pm

eroc79 wrote: »

Same. The link brought me to a login page where I created an account and went from there.

Same for me

Dublintigger · 01-03-2021 6:40pm

eroc79 wrote: »

Same. The link brought me to a login page where I created an account and went from there.

That is a little strange.....

Thanks for the heads up on that.

lucat · 01-03-2021 6:52pm

I just finished it. There seemed to be an awful lot of answers at an extreme end of the scale, or close to it! Anyone else find that?

Kenevil · 01-03-2021 7:40pm

Chase3 wrote: »

When I clink the link, it asks me to create an account? Did they give login details?

I created an account using my email linked to PAS i contacted PAS after to make sure it was the right thing they confirmed it is and that each persons link is specific to that person.

DarDee · 01-03-2021 9:01pm

caarp wrote: »

In relation to the link that is in the email we received from PAS, can you access it more than once, as in, can I go look at the material today and then do the actual test tomorrow? Also, just wanted to double-check, is this test timed? MTIA.

Not timed. You can go back in but it will bring you back to where you left off. You must answer a question to get to the next one.

redmgar · 01-03-2021 9:53pm

The email connected to your pas profile was prepopulated and you created a password.
The same for everyone?

redmgar · 01-03-2021 9:54pm

Then it just had 100% after the questions and you log out?

lucat · 01-03-2021 10:05pm

redmgar wrote: »

The email connected to your pas profile was prepopulated and you created a password.
The same for everyone?

It wasn't prepopulated for me. Doubt it matters though. I'm more concerned about the answers I selected tbh!

Ricosruffneck · 01-03-2021 11:18pm

redmgar wrote: »

The email connected to your pas profile was prepopulated and you created a password.
The same for everyone?

Was prepopulated for me, although I thought it was an auto fill by chrome, so deleted it and created my own.

Would be funny if they couldn't access my results. Not for me obviously.

Dublintigger · 02-03-2021 9:35am

redmgar wrote: »

Then it just had 100% after the questions and you log out?

It was the same for me as well.

Dublintigger · 02-03-2021 9:51am

Hi folks
I have just finished the stage 1(b) – it seem straightforward so I hope I have done enough.
My recommendations to anyone who still has to do the assessment, read the question more than once and then pick you answers as per highly desirable to undesirable.
I had to create an account – took less than 2 mins to do it.
There was no pre-test example before the test to ‘warm up’
At the end of the questions – all I got was 100% completed and log out – no notification (as of yet) that my assessment answers had been received.
I wasn’t asked to ID myself and I don’t think the assessment was recorded…. Which I thought was strange, did anyone have that same experience.

eroc79 · 02-03-2021 10:49am

Dublintigger wrote: »

Hi folks
I have just finished the stage 1(b) – it seem straightforward so I hope I have done enough.
My recommendations to anyone who still has to do the assessment, read the question more than once and then pick you answers as per highly desirable to undesirable.
I had to create an account – took less than 2 mins to do it.
There was no pre-test example before the test to ‘warm up’
At the end of the questions – all I got was 100% completed and log out – no notification (as of yet) that my assessment answers had been received.
I wasn’t asked to ID myself and I don’t think the assessment was recorded…. Which I thought was strange, did anyone have that same experience.

Exactly the same.
I don't think it's really a test you can cheat on but it did mention that you could be asked to do a similar test again under supervision.

Dublintigger · 02-03-2021 11:03am

eroc79 wrote: »

Exactly the same.
I don't think it's really a test you can cheat on but it did mention that you could be asked to do a similar test again under supervision.

Ah - that makes sense - thanks Eroc79.
I wouldnt have the nerve to cheat on it.....

cw67irl · 02-03-2021 12:18pm

Can the test be taken on an Ipad? I had planned on taking them over lunch in the office but im off...

UpBack1234 · 02-03-2021 1:19pm

cw67irl wrote: »

Can the test be taken on an Ipad? I had planned on taking them over lunch in the office but im off...

I wouldn't recommend doing this on a tablet or mobile device. Mobile OS's in general tend to be less reliable with these types of interactive tests.

UpBack1234 · 02-03-2021 1:26pm

Dublintigger wrote: »

That is a little strange.....

Thanks for the heads up on that.

Yes this was quite confusing - I just created an account assuming that the link in my public jobs message was unique although this isn't made clear at all from the familiarisation material. Also at the end of the test it just reverts to the home screen and there's no clear "test is now complete/successfully submitted" type message which also threw me a bit. Not PAS's best designed competition so far.

Dublintigger · 02-03-2021 1:50pm

UpBack1234 wrote: »

Yes this was quite confusing - I just created an account assuming that the link in my public jobs message was unique although this isn't made clear at all from the familiarisation material. Also at the end of the test it just reverts to the home screen and there's no clear "test is now complete/successfully submitted" type message which also threw me a bit. Not PAS's best designed competition so far.

Totally agree.....

caarp · 02-03-2021 2:16pm

UpBack1234 wrote: »

Yes this was quite confusing - I just created an account assuming that the link in my public jobs message was unique although this isn't made clear at all from the familiarisation material. Also at the end of the test it just reverts to the home screen and there's no clear "test is now complete/successfully submitted" type message which also threw me a bit. Not PAS's best designed competition so far.

I haven't done my test yet either, so thanks for the heads up indeed. That would have thrown me off too. Fair play.

Kittykat6 · 02-03-2021 5:34pm

UpBack1234 wrote: »

Yes this was quite confusing - I just created an account assuming that the link in my public jobs message was unique although this isn't made clear at all from the familiarisation material. Also at the end of the test it just reverts to the home screen and there's no clear "test is now complete/successfully submitted" type message which also threw me a bit. Not PAS's best designed competition so far.

Same here.

caarp · 02-03-2021 6:00pm

Do you have to scan around your room like the last time? I need to know if I need to clean my kitchen table or not

UpBack1234 · 02-03-2021 6:02pm

caarp wrote: »

Do you have to scan around your room like the last time? I need to know if I need to clean my kitchen table or not

No. You can take this one in your jammies no problem

caarp · 02-03-2021 6:09pm

Brilliant. Kitchen would require a bit of a clean up.

The_E · 02-03-2021 9:16pm

A huge proportion of the job of HEO is being able to lead an effective team that achieves the best results for the organisation and empowers those on their team to grow and progress on a professional and personal level. This is leadership.

I am staggered at some of the comments on this thread in regard to gender and the perceived threat of "reverse sexism" when both in terms of the Civil Service and wider society there is a lack of female engagement in senior roles. There is plenty of information out there to support this. Structural discrimination is very obviously real and rebalancing the playing field when the rules are stacked against someone is the only practical way to achieve the meritocracy people seem to be advocating for. When the deck is stacked, it cannot be a true meritocracy.

The Civil Service should be leaders on this and if it means I don't get a job I genuinely feel that is still the optimum outcome for the organisation, the wider Civil Service and for society. I would expect people wanting to join middle management in the Civil Service to be distinctly aware of the challenges facing people and want to work to fix them, even at the expense of personal gain.

I am really surprised at the level of vitriol directed at both the concept and at other posters on this thread.

Cossie44 · 02-03-2021 9:25pm

The_E wrote: »

A huge proportion of the job of HEO is being able to lead an effective team that achieves the best results for the organisation and empowers those on their team to grow and progress on a professional and personal level. This is leadership.

I am staggered at some of the comments on this thread in regard to gender and the perceived threat of "reverse sexism" when both in terms of the Civil Service and wider society there is a lack of female engagement in senior roles. There is plenty of information out there to support this. Structural discrimination is very obviously real and rebalancing the playing field when the rules are stacked against someone is the only practical way to achieve the meritocracy people seem to be advocating for. When the deck is stacked, it cannot be a true meritocracy.

The Civil Service should be leaders on this and if it means I don't get a job I genuinely feel that is still the optimum outcome for the organisation, the wider Civil Service and for society. I would expect people wanting to join middle management in the Civil Service to be distinctly aware of the challenges facing people and want to work to fix them, even at the expense of personal gain.

I am really surprised at the level of vitriol directed at both the concept and at other posters on this thread.

I couldnt agree more, I'm just here for that 49k tho personally $$$

doc22 · 02-03-2021 10:58pm

The_E wrote: »

A huge proportion of the job of HEO is being able to lead an effective team that achieves the best results for the organisation and empowers those on their team to grow and progress on a professional and personal level. This is leadership.

I am staggered at some of the comments on this thread in regard to gender and the perceived threat of "reverse sexism" when both in terms of the Civil Service and wider society there is a lack of female engagement in senior roles. There is plenty of information out there to support this. Structural discrimination is very obviously real and rebalancing the playing field when the rules are stacked against someone is the only practical way to achieve the meritocracy people seem to be advocating for. When the deck is stacked, it cannot be a true meritocracy.

The Civil Service should be leaders on this and if it means I don't get a job I genuinely feel that is still the optimum outcome for the organisation, the wider Civil Service and for society. I would expect people wanting to join middle management in the Civil Service to be distinctly aware of the challenges facing people and want to work to fix them, even at the expense of personal gain.

I am really surprised at the level of vitriol directed at both the concept and at other posters on this thread.

Not sure I agree if a man scores equal with a women in interview that the women should get the job due to structural discrimination and the man should be happy about it....

ahnowbrowncow · 03-03-2021 12:18am

The_E wrote: »

A huge proportion of the job of HEO is being able to lead an effective team that achieves the best results for the organisation and empowers those on their team to grow and progress on a professional and personal level. This is leadership.

I am staggered at some of the comments on this thread in regard to gender and the perceived threat of "reverse sexism" when both in terms of the Civil Service and wider society there is a lack of female engagement in senior roles. There is plenty of information out there to support this. Structural discrimination is very obviously real and rebalancing the playing field when the rules are stacked against someone is the only practical way to achieve the meritocracy people seem to be advocating for. When the deck is stacked, it cannot be a true meritocracy.

The Civil Service should be leaders on this and if it means I don't get a job I genuinely feel that is still the optimum outcome for the organisation, the wider Civil Service and for society. I would expect people wanting to join middle management in the Civil Service to be distinctly aware of the challenges facing people and want to work to fix them, even at the expense of personal gain.

I am really surprised at the level of vitriol directed at both the concept and at other posters on this thread.

A rather disingenuous argument but I’m not really surprised on this subject.

You're commenting on a HEO competition thread, where female to male employees in the civil service were nearly 3:2 in 2018.
Plus, with the civil service being an equal opportunities employer I’d be interested if you could provide tangible evidence for your claim of structural discrimination in the civil service, rather than just relying on your emotive language.

You claim that the goal is true meritocracy but that’s a contradiction when you’re in favour of positive discrimination to apparently ‘balance the playing field’. Are you in favour of such balancing for CO, EO and HEO/AO grades were females vastly outnumber their male colleagues?

What you’ve described as best for the organisation is pure fallacy as no one on this thread was arguing against that. People were discussing the selection criteria and the possibility of positive discrimination being implemented.
I’m sure most would agree that what is best for the organisation is that the best candidate is successful, rather than their genitalia being a deciding factor, as happens with gender quotas.

Dublintigger · 03-03-2021 10:38am

The_E wrote: »

A huge proportion of the job of HEO is being able to lead an effective team that achieves the best results for the organisation and empowers those on their team to grow and progress on a professional and personal level. This is leadership.

I am staggered at some of the comments on this thread in regard to gender and the perceived threat of "reverse sexism" when both in terms of the Civil Service and wider society there is a lack of female engagement in senior roles. There is plenty of information out there to support this. Structural discrimination is very obviously real and rebalancing the playing field when the rules are stacked against someone is the only practical way to achieve the meritocracy people seem to be advocating for. When the deck is stacked, it cannot be a true meritocracy.

The Civil Service should be leaders on this and if it means I don't get a job I genuinely feel that is still the optimum outcome for the organisation, the wider Civil Service and for society. I would expect people wanting to join middle management in the Civil Service to be distinctly aware of the challenges facing people and want to work to fix them, even at the expense of personal gain.

I am really surprised at the level of vitriol directed at both the concept and at other posters on this thread.

To be honest, I don’t think your post (this post) is on the right forum/thread for discussion and, if you search on Boards, I am sure you will find the appropriate platform to express your views – which you are perfectly entitled to.

This forum/platform, as I see it, is for HEO applicants looking for advice and hints in the current competition - for example letting participants know that they will be asked to create an account before they start Stage 1(b) and the general gist of the assessment.

However, I do agree that what is best for the organisation/ CS is that the best candidate, regardless of their gender or ethnicity, is successful.

Uncle Pierre · 03-03-2021 11:09am

I don't want to sidetrack this thing too much more, but in my own way, I'm staggered that somebody else would be staggered in the way they outline above.

I reckon any job should go to the best candidate, whether they're male or female or anything else. And if it's deemed important enough to hold a numerical test in the first stage at all, then the scores of that test should be counted.

I don't know what the maximum scores in these tests are, but let's say it's 100, with a pass mark of 50. A man or woman who scores 90 on verbal, 90 on numerical, and 60 on SJT (for a total of 240) should rank higher than a man or woman who scores 80 on verbal, 50 on numerical, and 75 on SJT (for a total of 205). But by disregarding the numerical score, they don't. Somebody who performed significantly worse overall ends up higher on the order of merit.

I'd suggest that if numerical scores are not going to be counted, then don't hold the numerical tests as 1(a) at all. Just do the verbal and SJT at that stage instead, give people their scores and ranking, and then tell those above the cut-off point that the next stage is a numerical test where they just have to achieve a pass mark.

There'd be less admin (and therefore probably less cost) because fewer people would be doing the test, and those doing it wouldn't be under so much pressure if they knew it didn't actually matter whether they scored 95 or "only" scored 55.

03-03-2021 11:48am

The_E wrote: »

I am staggered at some of the comments on this thread in regard to gender and the perceived threat of "reverse sexism" when both in terms of the Civil Service and wider society there is a lack of female engagement in senior roles. There is plenty of information out there to support this. Structural discrimination is very obviously real and rebalancing the playing field when the rules are stacked against someone is the only practical way to achieve the meritocracy people seem to be advocating for. When the deck is stacked, it cannot be a true meritocracy.

Absolute rubbish.

The sheer hypocrisy in claiming that you want to achieve a true meritocracy while discriminating against those who actually merit being awrded the position is off the charts.

If women fare poorly at maths, or poorer than men at least, then by all means, investigate the reasons why and take steps to counter that.*** The aim should be to bring the non-performing gender up and help them so they're up to the task. Don't punish the people who can perform the task already.

If there was a competition for a [insert female dominated profession, such as primary teaching] position and maths scores counted double because they were trying to encourage more male teachers and redress the huge imbalance there, there'd be murder. And rightly so. Discrimination is abhorrent, no matter which way you discriminate. Using flawed science such as the 'gender pay gap' is no reason to hobble half of the country when it comes to applying for a job.

Anyway, the suggestion that this is the reason behind the maths scores not counting is just that.....a suggestion, which renders this whole argument as moot.

(perhaps it's because their maths teacher was a woman who got the job ahead of better qualified male? :pac:)

Interdepartmental Higher Executive Officer 2020 - (Serving Civil Servants ONLY)

Comments