GRA and mortgages

dodgyme · 23-03-2009 3:21pm #1

From todays indo->

AN alarming number of younger gardai are falling behind in their mortgage payments and are close to the breadline, it was claimed last night.

The GRA has now stepped in to negotiate directly with lending institutions in a bid to alleviate the hardship being felt by its members.

"They bought these houses not for speculation but to put a roof over their heads and I am shocked by the number of them who are turning to us for help.

Correct me if I am wrong but when a garda gets a mortgage they know how much to a large degree they will earn??

ixoy · 23-03-2009 3:41pm

dodgyme wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but when a garda gets a mortgage they know how much to a large degree they will earn??

I imagine we'll hear about the old pension levy (even if it's a relatively small deduction in net pay) being trotted out, with a bit about overtime for good measure...

TomRooney · 23-03-2009 4:00pm

to be quite honest.....SO WHAT!

what about all the plasterers, brickys,carpenters, and labourers with no job and no prospect of a job.

what about the soldiers in the army, who are taking pay cuts on duty money aswell as the pension levy.

the list is endless, the Gardai deserve no special treatment over any other worker in this country. besides the fact the Gardai already enjoy a good salary and job security they have nothing to complain about.

gurramok · 23-03-2009 4:05pm

Mortgages probably given out on the basis of huge overtime payments in the boom.

GRA don't tell you the full story.
http://www.gra.cc/mortgages06.shtml

GRA--Mortgages

Simply an €asier Way to Buy Property

You have two choices when purchasing your property – take the hard option which involves dealing with all the effort, frustration, endless phone calls, missed appointments, time off work and high costs traditionally associated with purchasing a home OR you can take the easy option through Penpro.

We search the market for the best mortgage for you, advise you throughout the process and manage the process on your behalf each step of the way from start to finish. We negotiate with the Lender, deal with the Valuers and Solicitors and can give you lots of tips along the way. In fact, we do all the work so you don’t have to.

Our complete home buying service is available to members and their families who are first-time buyers, trader uppers, investors or refinancing their existing mortgage

Another case of bailing out bad decisions by mortgage holders.

Victor_M · 23-03-2009 4:09pm

It's fairly comical all right, the GRA are putting on the best 'poor us' show of all the public service workers. At least they still have a job to pay the mortgage with. I can't believe they are even being entertained coming out with that sort of clap trap!

If any guard (or anyone for that matter) was within 6-9% of not being able to pay their mortgage they were irresponsible borrowing so much in the first place.

dodgyme · 23-03-2009 4:21pm

well apparently

"He said it was a great source of anger to the GRA that the Government has not called on lending institutions to "give people a break, either by allowing them a way out of fixed rate payments or by writing off 20pc of the mortgages"."

:rolleyes:

now I dont mind a policy of giving people breaks - but not because they are gardai?

Also I know personally atleast 5 gardai and I have never seen them ever with any injuries from the line of duty, a bit different to the ads recently displayed by the GRA across dublin?

Sleipnir · 23-03-2009 4:23pm

I'm going to ring my bank now and ask them to write off 20% of my mortgage. I could do with a 'break'.

sdanseo · 23-03-2009 4:26pm

I wouldn't class the Garda salary as good tbh; starts at €25k and takes 17 years to get to €47k. Not much better than entry-level CO in the civil service but with (I would have thought) less prospect for promotion.

A lot of Gardaí take the crappy salary because they love the job - I'd do the same tbh. Same goes for the army and a few other things like that.

That said, I wouldn't like to have to foot the bill if other PS workers didn't get a similar deal.

Permabear · 23-03-2009 4:27pm

This post has been deleted.

is_that_so · 23-03-2009 4:29pm

So what indeed. George Lee mentioned the other "Gardai" in his programme last night, with their multiple houses. Why don't the GRA ask them to help out with poor strapped Gardai? That aside this is yet another piece of sloppy tabloid journalism from our friends at the Indo.

snubbleste · 23-03-2009 4:54pm

sdonn_1 wrote: »

I wouldn't class the Garda salary as good tbh; starts at €25k and takes 17 years to get to €47k. Not much better than entry-level CO in the civil service but with (I would have thought) less prospect for promotion.

According to the CSO, the average weekly earnings for a Garda is €1,266 (€1,054 excl overtime) in March 2008. Yes, I know what the GRA site says..

Mr.Micro · 23-03-2009 5:00pm

I have never known a poor Garda in all my life, even when things were dire. No disrespect, but they will have to bear it like the rest of us and be glad that they have a permanent job. Too much spending money on other things? Interest rates at near zero.... no excuses. What are they going to do when the recovery starts and the rates rise very quickly?

thebman · 23-03-2009 5:28pm

20%! :eek: Where the hell does that figure come from?

Their salaries can't possibly have dropped by 20% so they are asking for more than they could get in the hope to get something.

Where exactly is this money going to come from? Just because you work in the police, does not mean you are entitled to keep your current standard of living.

Why the hell did they buy in the first place if they couldn't afford it. They knew they couldn't depend on overtime same as sales people should know they can't depend on commission.

TomRooney · 23-03-2009 10:19pm

my personel belief is this a classic example of the corruption that is endemic in this state.

such as the government being in bed with the elite classes and bankers.

which resulted in such actions as Gardai never being refused a mortage or at least it would be very rare.

i Know young Gardai who have 2 and 3 mortages all because the bank wouldnt refuse a Garda a mortage or so they have told me.

irish_bob · 23-03-2009 10:46pm

the list of sacred cows in this country grows

nurses
garda
????

silverharp · 23-03-2009 10:48pm

christ , my 4 year old is more stoic then these half wits. has anyone pointed out to them that on average their mortage rates will have being dropping since last year.

Mr.Micro · 23-03-2009 11:32pm

silverharp wrote: »

christ , my 4 year old is more stoic then these half wits. has anyone pointed out to them that on average their mortage rates will have being dropping since last year.

I did in post 12.:D

Godge · 24-03-2009 12:30am

sdonn_1 wrote: »

I wouldn't class the Garda salary as good tbh; starts at €25k and takes 17 years to get to €47k. Not much better than entry-level CO in the civil service but with (I would have thought) less prospect for promotion.

A lot of Gardaí take the crappy salary because they love the job - I'd do the same tbh. Same goes for the army and a few other things like that.

That said, I wouldn't like to have to foot the bill if other PS workers didn't get a similar deal.

I am fed up doing this. Look at this website.

http://www.gra.ie

Go to salary scales and you get the figures you mention. But then look at allowances and you will soon see how an average Garda makes it up to an average salary of 50k. Gardai are not badly paid, that is a myth (alongside the myth that teachers and nurses are badly paid). There is some mad belief that out there are thousands of administrative civil servants paid salaries of 90k upwards who should be targeted. In reality they make up less than 1% of the total. It is ordinary front-line staff like the three I mention who are going to have to bear the brunt of it if savings are to be made on public service pay.

Now, there are a few coining it - university professors with four day weeks and 15 weeks holidays earning in excess of 150k, judges who sit for about four months and who don't pay the pension levy, county councillors who get 50k for a part-time job. These should all suffer but there are not enough of them to make a difference to the big numbers.

K-9 · 24-03-2009 1:49am

dodgyme wrote: »

From todays indo->

AN alarming number of younger gardai are falling behind in their mortgage payments and are close to the breadline, it was claimed last night.

The GRA has now stepped in to negotiate directly with lending institutions in a bid to alleviate the hardship being felt by its members.

"They bought these houses not for speculation but to put a roof over their heads and I am shocked by the number of them who are turning to us for help.

Correct me if I am wrong but when a garda gets a mortgage they know how much to a large degree they will earn??

Guards are different to the rest of us.

Unfortunately my Dad would wonder why he was treated the same as everybody else in the 80/early 90's.

Useless GRA.

TheNog · 24-03-2009 3:22am

TomRooney wrote: »

to be quite honest.....SO WHAT!

what about all the plasterers, brickys,carpenters, and labourers with no job and no prospect of a job.

what about the soldiers in the army, who are taking pay cuts on duty money aswell as the pension levy.

the list is endless, the Gardai deserve no special treatment over any other worker in this country. besides the fact the Gardai already enjoy a good salary and job security they have nothing to complain about.

Actually there is one reason and it is one reason you will not find in any other job contract in the public or private sector. There is a clause in all Garda contracts that if we default on a loan, any loan be it credit union or mortgage, means instant dismissal from the force.
It is an old regulation that I believe the GRA is working on to have annulled. If its not successful not only will a family lose the roof over its head but the garda also loses his job and joins the dole queue.
TBH I cant see how this rule cannot be assigned to the bin.

dodgyme wrote: »

Also I know personally atleast 5 gardai and I have never seen them ever with any injuries from the line of duty, a bit different to the ads recently displayed by the GRA across dublin?

Just because you know 5 out of 14,000 doesnt really mean it never happens. Anyway an assault doesnt always cause injury either.

snubbleste wrote: »

According to the CSO, the average weekly earnings for a Garda is €1,266 (€1,054 excl overtime) in March 2008. Yes, I know what the GRA site says..

Got to love these statistics. The above one is an average over all the Force from regular uniformed right up to Commissioner. The commissioner himself think he earns about 190k. The problem is not with the high earners but the lower earners in AGS.

ArphaRima · 24-03-2009 3:32am

Just had a look at their salary scales. I certainly dont think that they are under-paid.
If gardai are falling behind on their mortgages, it's their fault. All investment carries risk.
Their salary remains unchanged. The pension levy is really feck-all, and nobody should ever buy anything on credit using their overtime/bonuses as a guide.

thebman · 24-03-2009 5:13am

TheNog wrote: »

Actually there is one reason and it is one reason you will not find in any other job contract in the public or private sector. There is a clause in all Garda contracts that if we default on a loan, any loan be it credit union or mortgage, means instant dismissal from the force.
It is an old regulation that I believe the GRA is working on to have annulled. If its not successful not only will a family lose the roof over its head but the garda also loses his job and joins the dole queue.
TBH I cant see how this rule cannot be assigned to the bin.

TBH I can't believe a Garda would be that reckless with his livelihood that he'd take a mortgage he couldn't afford if he didn't get overtime/bonuses/other or if he's basic salary reduced by 10%.

Bit of a massive risk to take do you no think? I'm not saying I wouldn't revoke the clause (although I'd like to know why it ever existed) but it was reckless to get involved to that extent based on overtime since it was most likely not going to last the length of time of the mortgage repayments.

gurramok · 24-03-2009 9:41am

TheNog wrote: »

Actually there is one reason and it is one reason you will not find in any other job contract in the public or private sector. There is a clause in all Garda contracts that if we default on a loan, any loan be it credit union or mortgage, means instant dismissal from the force.
It is an old regulation that I believe the GRA is working on to have annulled. If its not successful not only will a family lose the roof over its head but the garda also loses his job and joins the dole queue.
TBH I cant see how this rule cannot be assigned to the bin.

Uh oh, mass dismiissal of defaulters as the GRA themselves say half the gardai are up to their eyes in mortgage payments. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/young-gardai--struggling-to--pay-mortgages-1682427.html

gra wrote:

"They bought into the myth that was perpetuated and fed by government and bought at the peak of the boom,'' he said.

"This Government refused to pull the brakes on the greed of property developers and they are now left with huge mortgages.'

So are tens of thousands more in the same boat GRA.

TheNog, do you have an issue to what the GRA have done pimping huge mortgages to their members in the bubble?

molloyjh · 24-03-2009 2:52pm

Ok now maybe people need to explain a few things to me here that I'm just not getting. Do you all have a problem with the GRA representing their members in some way or that they are not representing anyone else? The GRA will speak for the Gardai, but that doesn't mean they are looking for special treatment for the Gardai alone, just that they can't speak for anyone else.

A lot of people are having issues with their mortgages and the idea of allowing people on fixed rates move to variable rates has been floated a few times, and not just by the GRA, so I don't see what the issue is here either.

As for the "sacred cow" comment, and again maybe I'm biased as I have a former Garda as a father and a nurse for a sister, but given the roles they play in our society I would place those kinds professions in a higher status than most others. Compare a Gardas impact on a persons life to a bank tellers for example. I can't figure out why people have such an issue with the thought of these people being looked after in some ways given the risk many put themselves at on a daily basis. It smacks to me of begrudgery.

Of course then there is the comment regarding Gardai not being injured. My father considers himself very lucky to only have suffered a broken nose in his 30 odd years, but maybe that's because he knew the guy who burned to death in Tallaght trying to prevent someone topping themselves.

The more comments I read on these boards and the more I hear people on the street or TV or face to face the more disgusted I'm becoming with the sheer amount of begrudgery, which is equally mixed often times with some wierd sense of personal entitlement, on display. I've never been a fan of unions and can understand a lot of the criticisms they are coming under, but it always seems to deteriorate into attacks on the members/professions they represent.

is_that_so · 24-03-2009 3:17pm

I think you'll find you've answered some of your questions in that last paragraph. We are all blinkered to others' problems to a greater or lesser degree and we all have our own sense of entitlement. As far as I am concerned Gardai, nurses or whoever were in their right mind when getting mortgages and have to pay them back in their entirety. TBH I can't see how criticising the GRA for trying to get 20% off mortgages is begrudgery. More like a stroke in my view. If you signed for it, you pay it back which goes for every last one of us who took out a mortgage. As regards the GRA, I can't say I'd be too impressed if they were representing me.

ArphaRima · 24-03-2009 3:21pm

Do the GRA and their members deserve special entitlement over other members of society? No.

jimmmy · 24-03-2009 3:25pm

fluffer wrote: »

Just had a look at their salary scales. I certainly dont think that they are under-paid.
If gardai are falling behind on their mortgages, it's their fault.

Well said. Our Gardai are actually overpaid compared to their counterparts abroad, and those in private industry at home. Plus interest rates have fallen big time. The GRA trying to make soup of the poor underpaid Gardai is something to be noted by the ordinary taxpayer and voter. I know some Gardai who went on fancy holidays recently , without the cares or worries that the rest of us have, struggling to survive and pay their wages . Shame on the GRA.

thebman · 24-03-2009 3:29pm

molloyjh wrote: »

Ok now maybe people need to explain a few things to me here that I'm just not getting. Do you all have a problem with the GRA representing their members in some way or that they are not representing anyone else? The GRA will speak for the Gardai, but that doesn't mean they are looking for special treatment for the Gardai alone, just that they can't speak for anyone else.

A lot of people are having issues with their mortgages and the idea of allowing people on fixed rates move to variable rates has been floated a few times, and not just by the GRA, so I don't see what the issue is here either.

Nobody deserves help with their mortgage. You signed for it, you pay for it that is how the system works. The taxpayers that didn't fook up their lives shouldn't pay for the homes of the ones that did.

Moving to Variable rate is up to the banks and government. Not saying I'm against it, I don't care either way.

As for the "sacred cow" comment, and again maybe I'm biased as I have a former Garda as a father and a nurse for a sister, but given the roles they play in our society I would place those kinds professions in a higher status than most others. Compare a Gardas impact on a persons life to a bank tellers for example. I can't figure out why people have such an issue with the thought of these people being looked after in some ways given the risk many put themselves at on a daily basis. It smacks to me of begrudgery.

Well though sh** they aren't at a higher status. I can't understand why they (or you) consider themselves better than everyone else when they are doing a job they offered to do, same as everyone else (well not the people who were unfortunate enough to lose theirs). Your suggestion is insulting at best. Nobody forced anyone to join the police force and there are plenty of other people willing to join.

Its a job, they aren't doing it for free!

molloyjh · 24-03-2009 3:39pm

jimmmy wrote: »

Well said. Our Gardai are actually overpaid compared to their counterparts abroad, and those in private industry at home. Plus interest rates have fallen big time. The GRA trying to make soup of the poor underpaid Gardai is something to be noted by the ordinary taxpayer and voter. I know some Gardai who went on fancy holidays recently , without the cares or worries that the rest of us have, struggling to survive and pay their wages . Shame on the GRA.

I know people from all walks of life that went on "fancy holidays" recently too. So what!? The Gardai get a good chunk of their money from overtime, and most of them work hard enough for it doing a job that you and I probably wouldn't have the balls to do. A Garda's basic isn't all that great at all and while the GRA (like other unions) are playing that up more than they should be that's no reason for the rest of us to get snotty with the Gardai in general.

And heaven forbid you pay their wages when they protect you and yours. Do you take that attitude with bankers or shop assistants given that your custom pays their wages?

molloyjh · 24-03-2009 3:46pm

thebman wrote: »

Nobody deserves help with their mortgage. You signed for it, you pay for it that is how the system works. The taxpayers that didn't fook up their lives shouldn't pay for the homes of the ones that did.

Moving to Variable rate is up to the banks and government. Not saying I'm against it, I don't care either way.

For the record I wasn't expressing a personal opinion really. I'm not too far from yours truth be told. I have a hard time straying from the "you made your bed" position.

thebman wrote: »

Well though sh** they aren't at a higher status. I can't understand why they (or you) consider themselves better than everyone else when they are doing a job they offered to do, same as everyone else (well not the people who were unfortunate enough to lose theirs). Your suggestion is insulting at best. Nobody forced anyone to join the police force and there are plenty of other people willing to join.

Its a job, they aren't doing it for free!

I'm not saying they are "better" per se, but there are higher paid and easier jobs out there. Yet these people make the choice to put themselves in harms way and we get the benefit. Surely we should appreciate that choice more than that of someone who decides to sit at a PC in an office all day contributing to some companies bottom line and nothing more (which is what I've been doing!).

jimmmy · 24-03-2009 3:53pm

molloyjh wrote: »

I know people from all walks of life that went on "fancy holidays" recently too.

"all" walks of life ? I know many a person ( who are not in the public sector) who has not had a holiday in the past 2 years and may never again.

molloyjh wrote: »

The Gardai get a good chunk of their money from overtime,

Thats part of the scandal, the huge overtime rates.

molloyjh wrote: »

and most of them work hard enough for it doing a job that you and I probably wouldn't have the balls to do.

They work - thats their job. There are harder jobs in the world. I have sometimes seen them do their shopping / pricing around for personal stuff while in uniform / being paid. As regards "the balls to do", speak for yourself, do not speak for others.

molloyjh wrote: »

A Garda's basic isn't all that great at all

lol lol Its among the best in the world.

molloyjh wrote: »

and while the GRA (like other unions) are playing that up more than they should be that's no reason for the rest of us to get snotty with the Gardai in general.

Nobody is snotty with the Gardai, just the audacity of the GRA if they are putting on the poor mouth in this time of deflation / world economic crises.

molloyjh wrote: »

And heaven forbid you pay their wages when they protect you and yours.

Thats their job, to protect people.

molloyjh wrote: »

Do you take that attitude with bankers or shop assistants given that your custom pays their wages?

Do you know how much Guards get when they take early retirement in guaranteed pay ?

GRA and mortgages

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