Healthy baby aborted at 15 weeks

Dirkziggler · 17-05-2019 12:17pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Can people STF up about the repeal the 8th or not to repeal the 8th and just think about the poor family for a minute , Any of there family could be on here reading this

Its an awful tragic accident, and not time for people to sling mud at each other,

I said as much above this is a tragedy in itself and it’s being used to point score.

It’s scumbag behaviour

padd b1975 · 17-05-2019 12:36pm

elusiveoctopus wrote: »

"It was thought the baby had Trisomy18, also known as Edwards Syndrome, but a series of genetic tests later found that was not the case."

Maybe they should confirm the child had the disease before acting on it.

Not much to ask for in fairness.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-05-2019 12:47pm

This is really saddening. In figuring out whether or not a foetus has an FFA, they need to be as sure as is possible. The doctors must have thought that because two tests were positive for the condition, the third probably would be too.

In my unfortunately very vast experience of doctors, they makes mistakes ALL the frickin’ time and many can be quite blasé and cocksure when they shouldn’t be. You cannot be blasé about something like this.

bruschi · 17-05-2019 12:50pm

My own fault for clicking into the thread.

But the lack of empathy to the parents who actively wanted a child and have lost it due to medical negligence, the "told you so" comments about how this was to be expected to happen. That the parents have no right to complain about this.

Its actually disgusting some of the comments on here. They show a real sense of being glad to see this happened so they can get on their moral high horse again, regardless of facts that the 8th would have made little or no difference here. Point scoring over a couple having an abortion on what was actually a healthy baby.

Meanwhile a couple are grieving over a lost pregnancy they clearly wanted.

LorelaiG · 17-05-2019 1:03pm

Considering that there is no time restriction for time on a termination for FFA they (whoever 'they' are... the doctors, the parents) they really jumped the gun by not waiting on diagnostic test results to come back rather than relying on screening tests.

loveisdivine · 17-05-2019 1:12pm

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

People are making out here that a little collateral damage is grand. This is an innocent defenceless human being we're talking about. 1 mistake is too many.

By this logic the whole idea of medicine and surgeries etc should be made illegal. People have surgery every day, some of those people die. So does that mean we shouldn't ever operate on people because one death is too many?

take everything · 17-05-2019 1:13pm

bruschi wrote: »

My own fault for clicking into the thread.

But the lack of empathy to the parents who actively wanted a child and have lost it due to medical negligence, the "told you so" comments about how this was to be expected to happen. That the parents have no right to complain about this.

Its actually disgusting some of the comments on here. They show a real sense of being glad to see this happened so they can get on their moral high horse again, regardless of facts that the 8th would have made little or no difference here. Point scoring over a couple having an abortion on what was actually a healthy baby.

Meanwhile a couple are grieving over a lost pregnancy they clearly wanted.

Why do you say the eighth would have made no difference here.

Edgware · 17-05-2019 1:14pm

loveisdivine wrote: »

By this logic the whole idea of medicine and surgeries etc should be made illegal. People have surgery every day, some of those people die. So does that mean we shouldn't ever operate on people because one death is too many?

Ya twas only a foetus after all

mvl · 17-05-2019 1:15pm

LorelaiG wrote: »

Considering that there is no time restriction for time on a termination for FFA they (whoever 'they' are... the doctors, the parents) they really jumped the gun by not waiting on diagnostic test results to come back rather than relying on screening tests.

Was just thinking how difficult it can be to navigate through this process: medical staff involved on each of the procedures can range from GPs/consultants/nurses.
Really feel sorry for the parents, they may have been insufficiently guided ... but at the end of the day they should have known there are risks, this is more on them imo.
While I'd imagine in the hospital they have signed T&Cs before going ahead with the abortion, do wonder who on the medical side is responsible end to end for a pregnancy that does get terminated - any thoughts ?

kneemos · 17-05-2019 1:17pm

Edgware wrote: »

Ya twas only a foetus after all

God lovers rubbing their hands with delight.

mariaalice · 17-05-2019 1:20pm

bruschi wrote: »

My own fault for clicking into the thread.

But the lack of empathy to the parents who actively wanted a child and have lost it due to medical negligence, the "told you so" comments about how this was to be expected to happen. That the parents have no right to complain about this.

Its actually disgusting some of the comments on here. They show a real sense of being glad to see this happened so they can get on their moral high horse again, regardless of facts that the 8th would have made little or no difference here. Point scoring over a couple having an abortion on what was actually a healthy baby.

Meanwhile a couple are grieving over a lost pregnancy they clearly wanted.

The master of the Rotunda was on th raido this morning its unlikely to be medical negligence no test is perfect there is alway a small marging of error that is why they do more than one test they can do up to 3 tests yet it still will not be a certainty Yeah some of the comment here are really odd.

It is a bit worring that people do not seem to understand this.

Edgware · 17-05-2019 1:25pm

mariaalice wrote: »

The master of the Rotunda was on th raido this morning its unlikely to be medical negligence no test is perfect there is alway a small marging of error that is why they do more than one test they can do up to 3 tests yet it still will not be a certititanty. Yeah some of the comment here are really odd.

It is a bit worring that people do not seem to understand this.

Very "worring"

Timberrrrrrrr · 17-05-2019 1:26pm

take everything wrote: »

Why do you say the eighth would have made no difference here.

They would have got the same diagnosis, they would have still decided on abortion, they would have had to travel to the UK for it. The end result would have still been the same.

jam_mac_jam · 17-05-2019 1:27pm

Wow pro life people seem really happy about the death of a foetus. That's not very Christian.

listermint · 17-05-2019 1:28pm

mariaalice wrote: »

The master of the Rotunda was on th raido this morning its unlikely to be medical negligence no test is perfect there is alway a small marging of error that is why they do more than one test they can do up to 3 tests yet it still will not be a certititanty. Yeah some of the comment here are really odd.

It is a bit worring that people do not seem to understand this.

Not often ive agreed with you in the past on range of issues , but this is 100% accurate.

There is no such thing as a foolproof test.

The courts are making an absolute balls of the Cancer Issues presently. And this case here may be similar.

People can only act on the information at hand. And it has to be accepted by everyone that medical tests give best known results, but in the world of genetics and medicines there is no 100%.

If we cant accept those facts then the whole system just collapses.

17-05-2019 1:31pm

mariaalice wrote: »

The master of the Rotunda was on th raido this morning its unlikely to be medical negligence no test is perfect there is alway a small marging of error that is why they do more than one test they can do up to 3 tests yet it still will not be a certititanty. Yeah some of the comment here are really odd.

It is a bit worring that people do not seem to understand this.

In fairness, what's more "worrying" is a doctor being asked for legal advice on national radio.

The same thing happened recently with TV and radio doctors completely misunderstanding that the "absolute confidence" test for screening is not referring to scientific absolute confidence. As you'd expect, it's a legal measurement.

I don't think anybody thinks this isn't going to end up before the courts, nor should anyone be surprised by the comments of the Master of the Rotunda.

JeffKenna · 17-05-2019 1:33pm

RIP to the little baby and my thoughts are with the parents. Hopefully they can recover from this tragedy.

mariaalice · 17-05-2019 1:36pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

In fairness, what's more "worrying" is a doctor being asked for legal advice on national radio.

The same thing happened recently with TV and radio doctors completely misunderstanding that the "absolute confidence" test for screening is not referring to scientific absolute confidence. As you'd expect, it's a legal measurement.

I don't think anybody doubts this isn't going to end up before the courts, nor should anyone be surprised by the comments of the Master of the Rotunda.

He was not asked for a legal opnion.

kowloon · 17-05-2019 1:36pm

LorelaiG wrote: »

Considering that there is no time restriction for time on a termination for FFA they (whoever 'they' are... the doctors, the parents) they really jumped the gun by not waiting on diagnostic test results to come back rather than relying on screening tests.

I get the quicker is better mentality, but only, like you say, if the certainty isn't compromised.

It would be nice if people didn't jump on the **** the parents bandwagon.

suicide_circus · 17-05-2019 1:37pm

if we expect 100% successful medical diagnoses on pain of legal action we are quickly going to have no health service.

BorneTobyWilde · 17-05-2019 1:37pm

Sad case, of course they'll now be multi millionaires and hopefully use that wealth to bring attention to this case and in doing so save others from the same faith of losing a perfectly healthy child.

Mrsmum · 17-05-2019 1:38pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Wow pro life people seem really happy about the death of a foetus. That's not very Christian.

This has been said a few times now and I strongly object to it. It's the very same as saying pro repeal people were absolutely delighted by Savita 's death as a means of giving weight to their cause. Both of these cases, on opposite ends of the spectrum, are dreadful and no one, but no one takes delight in either case.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-05-2019 1:39pm

Ricosruffneck wrote: »

I support abortion.

But i'm curious, in this instance if the 8th hadn't been changed would the baby have been aborted (in Ireland)?

What are the facts? without getting emotive over what has happened here please.

You mean would it have been covered by POLDPA? I’m not sure, anyone know?

jam_mac_jam · 17-05-2019 1:40pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Sad case, of course they'll now be multi millionaires and hopefully use that wealth to bring attention to this case and in doing so save others from the same faith of losing a perfectly healthy child.

multi millionaires? How is that going to happen?

Still waters · 17-05-2019 1:41pm

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

The 8th amendment would have given a legal right to life to this poor defenceless innocent human life, and prevented his or her killing. Sad but true. All the right on lefty liberal 'woke' brigade : are you proud now?

theres rules against putting into a reply about what I really think about people like you, I'd hate to be banned because of what I should say but wont

d8491prj5boyvg · 17-05-2019 1:41pm

Its not a baby, it's a foetus, what does it matter?

mariaalice · 17-05-2019 1:42pm

Very warey of the legal profession in Ireland not saying they all have issues far from.

However.

I looked up something about the cervical smear test, all of sudden I started gettin 'adverst' on my facebook from solicitors practices with helpfull 'information' on uderstanding bowel screaing and cervical screaming.

jam_mac_jam · 17-05-2019 1:43pm

Mrsmum wrote: »

This has been said a few times now and I strongly object to it. It's the very same as saying pro repeal people were absolutely delighted by Savita 's death as a means of giving weight to their cause. Both of these cases, on opposite ends of the spectrum, are dreadful and no one, but no one takes delight in either case.

One of the first comments was this is the case we have been waiting for. So sounds like delight to me.

I agree with you on Savita though, I thought some of it was in very bad taste.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-05-2019 1:43pm

mariaalice wrote: »

No medical test is definitive, its the quest for and the belief in certainty that is the heart of the problem.

Every risk in life can not be eliminated but somehow we are evolving a society when we think we can take the risk out of everything.

True but we should endeavour to minimise risk as much as we can. That’s a never-ending and noble goal.

Brian? · 17-05-2019 1:45pm

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

The 8th amendment would have given a legal right to life to this poor defenceless innocent human life, and prevented his or her killing. Sad but true. All the right on lefty liberal 'woke' brigade : are you proud now?

Very proud. Thanks.

The decision made by this family is none of my or your business. That’s what over 60% of people in Ireland voted for.

LorelaiG · 17-05-2019 1:45pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

You mean would it have been covered by POLDPA? I’m not sure, anyone know?

No, it wouldn't have. POLDPA was only if the threat was to the life of the mother while the foetus still had a heartbeat.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 17-05-2019 1:46pm

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

People are making out here that a little collateral damage is grand. This is an innocent defenceless human being we're talking about. 1 mistake is too many.

I’ve got terminal cancer because a careless doctor hand-waved me away. That doctor is still practicing. There will always be human casualties of human error in medicine. Happens all the time unfortunately.

Charles Ingles · 17-05-2019 1:47pm

We should match on the dail and demand another referendum before it's too late

Timberrrrrrrr · 17-05-2019 1:51pm

Charles Ingles wrote: »

We should match on the dail and demand another referendum before it's too late

:rolleyes:

Off you go.

amcalester · 17-05-2019 1:53pm

Charles Ingles wrote: »

We should match on the dail and demand another referendum before it's too late

As is your right, but I very much doubt politicians would be willing to touch this issue considering the landslide result.

There was more than 35 years between the referenda installing and removing the 8th, so I think you're in for a long battle.

fits · 17-05-2019 2:09pm

This is awfully sad. I’m a carrier with 50% risk of passing on a serious chromosomal abnormality to a foetus so I have looked into this a bit. No one would go for a cvs test without good reason so I would guess that the abnormality showed up in a harmony test and was confirmed in the cvs. This was due to the mosaicism so it is really unfortunate but not really anyone’s fault. The probability of that happening must be absolutely tiny. Heartbreaking for the couple concerned though. My thoughts go out to them.

Faugheen · 17-05-2019 2:12pm

Charles Ingles wrote: »

We should match on the dail and demand another referendum before it's too late

2/10 must try harder.

Berserker · 17-05-2019 2:12pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

multi millionaires? How is that going to happen?

If the couple in question decide to take legal action.

jam_mac_jam · 17-05-2019 2:13pm

Charles Ingles wrote: »

We should match on the dail and demand another referendum before it's too late

Off you go so? Or maybe you won't bother?

mariaalice · 17-05-2019 2:14pm

Berserker wrote: »

If the couple in question decide to take legal action.

They are they had their solicitors on the one o clock news.

Gimme A Pound · 17-05-2019 2:21pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Sad case, of course they'll now be multi millionaires and hopefully use that wealth to bring attention to this case and in doing so save others from the same faith of losing a perfectly healthy child.

Super example of faux sympathy.

Plumbthedepths · 17-05-2019 2:21pm

Charles Ingles wrote:

We should match on the dail and demand another referendum before it's too late

Craw thumpers r us.

Charles Ingles · 17-05-2019 2:48pm

Faugheen wrote: »

2/10 must try harder.

We usually agree on most topics faugheen , are you not in agreement with me on this issue?

17-05-2019 3:10pm

mariaalice wrote: »

He was not asked for a legal opnion.

Well according to your post, he offered it.

A medical doctor is not qualified to go on the radio and speculate about a medical negligence case, any more than a solicitor is qualified to hold forth on traumatic injuries

The couple have appointed a really eminent solicitor, and I doubt they appreciate the Master of the Rotunda speculating like that on national radio.

I mean, I'm sure the same goes for this thread, except that it's a different platform and we're not in positions of influence.

evil_seed · 17-05-2019 3:18pm

Ricosruffneck wrote: »

I support abortion.

But i'm curious, in this instance if the 8th hadn't been changed would the baby have been aborted (in Ireland)?

What are the facts? without getting emotive over what has happened here please.

You're in the wrong place asking that question

Ricosruffneck · 17-05-2019 3:20pm

evil_seed wrote: »

You're in the wrong place asking that question

Having read the responses since.

I agree with you.

Gazzmonkey · 17-05-2019 3:28pm

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

Doesn't change the fact the 8th would have prevented this healthy baby's killing. The truth hurts sometimes.

If you're into dead babies, there's about 800 of them in Tuam as far I know.

Certainly some where dispatched by Nuns and other devote religious folk.

mariaalice · 17-05-2019 3:39pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Well according to your post, he offered it.

A medical doctor is not qualified to go on the radio and speculate about a medical negligence case, any more than a solicitor is qualified to hold forth on traumatic injuries

The couple have appointed a really eminent solicitor, and I doubt they appreciate the Master of the Rotunda speculating like that on national radio.

I mean, I'm sure the same goes for this thread, except that it's a different platform and we're not in positions of influence.

Perhaps I was not explaining it very well he did not say it was unlikely to be medical negligence that was my interpretation of wha he was saying, his main point is that no test perfect and no test can offer certainty and in cases of fetal abnormality that is why they do more that one test and that the test has to be contextualised along with other screening such as ultrasound.

SusieBlue · 17-05-2019 3:40pm

Jaster Rogue wrote: »

Doesn't that just prove our laws were correct and theirs wrong?
Our former laws would not have resulted in the slaughter of an innocent little baby. Theirs would.

Edit meant to quote post about travelling to uk

No, because they could have travelled to the UK for a termination as the many thousands before them did anyway so the 8th would have prevented nothing.

17-05-2019 3:43pm

mariaalice wrote: »

his main point is that no test perfect and no test can offer certainty and in cases of fetal abnormality that is why they do more that one test and that the test has to be contextualised along with other screening such as ultrasound.

He said:

“When the CVS test is taken two different samples are sent, one for a rapid result which comes back within 48 hours and the other which can take up to two weeks and it is 100%.

Also interesting that he's seen previous cases of the CVS giving a rapid positive, but they waited for the final result

He said he was aware of one case in the Rotunda where an abnormality was identified in the rapid CVS test, but there was no indication in the ultrasound and when the result came through in two weeks the result was normal.

https://www.echolive.ie/nationalnews/Master-of-Rotunda-hospital-Diagnosis-of-fatal-foetal-abnormality-difficult-to-interpret-952aea83-c322-4930-bedf-1e1f91eb6ec2-ds

Healthy baby aborted at 15 weeks

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