Red ribbons on trees

Dyr · 19-05-2019 3:44pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Dublin is one of the smallest and least dense European capital cities. To say that Dublin is overpopulated hardly needs ridiculing -- but just to register this anyway, it is totally ridiculous.

Throw up the stats for density in European cities there, good man.

19-05-2019 4:14pm

Bambi wrote: »

Throw up the stats for density in European cities there, good man.

Dublin is a high-density European city within the canals, i.e within walking distance to the CBD. And that's great, but that's a fraction of the city's population.

To declare that Dublin is a dense city in any realistic sense is (and I hate broad terms like this, but it's appropriate here) ludicrous. As European capitals go, we are outstandingly flat, and continue to sprawl. This is a tiny capital, very sparsely populated in terms of density.

Can you elaborate on your comments about students being a burden towards congestion?

lawred2 · 19-05-2019 4:40pm

Make claim without evidence

Claim gets ridiculed

Claimant seeks evidence to disprove their claim

That's not really how it works.

Dyr · 19-05-2019 4:44pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Dublin is a high-density European city within the canals, i.e within walking distance to the CBD. And that's great, but that's a fraction of the city's population.

To declare that Dublin is a dense city in any realistic sense is (and I hate broad terms like this, but it's appropriate here) ludicrous. As European capitals go, we are outstandingly flat, and continue to sprawl. This is a tiny capital, very sparsely populated in terms of density.

Can you elaborate on your comments about students being a burden towards congestion?

Little hesitant there for someone who was so strident

Here I'll do it for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_cities_proper_by_population_density

Dublin city is measured as 40 + square miles but, by all means, keep scuttering on about sprawl and flatness to hide your blushes

lawred2 · 19-05-2019 4:47pm

Bambi wrote: »

Little hesitant there for someone who was so strident

Here I'll do it for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_cities_proper_by_population_density

Dublin city is measured as 40 + square miles but, by all means, keep scuttering on about sprawl and flatness to hide your blushes

40 square km is quite small

8km * 5km is 40 sqkm... Would that just be the area between the canals?

Apologies... I see you said sq miles..

aloyisious · 19-05-2019 4:51pm

super_furry wrote: »

They're being wrapped around trees that are along the new Bus Connects routes and that may or may not be cut down.

That might explain the ribbons on the trees in a private estate in Shankill Village, Co Dublin. The village is on the master plan for a quality bus corridor even though it has a roundabout, a narrow 2-lane street and a humpback bridge over the old Harcourt Line railway route.

19-05-2019 4:53pm

Bambi wrote: »

Little hesitant there for someone who was so strident

Here I'll do it for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_cities_proper_by_population_density

Dublin city is measured as 40 + square miles but, by all means, keep scuttering on about sprawl and flatness to hide your blushes

Ehh, yeah, you're totally right dude, Dublin is a densely packed city *

*within the canals.

Now that we have established that you are 100% and definitely correct about that, and certainly not deluded; would you like to elaborate on your statement about getting rid of students?

OneOfThem Stumbled · 19-05-2019 4:58pm

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Strictly speaking, no bus lane is necessary; this is about incentivising public transport and other clean transit alternatives to cars. Why is only an inbound bus-lane desirable? The people who travel into town for work and events usually return to the same point-of-origin at evening, do they not?

As someone who uses this route, rush hour traffic inbound is a much more significant issue than outbound in my experience. But closing off all traffic from Simmonscourt and Sandymount avenue to Merrion avenue would make more impact than any road widening ever could. However, doing that would throw up its own problems.

From that location, to the American embassy there's a total of seven traffic lights. Seven! That's only 3/4 of a kilometre. What's more, those traffic lights can take ages to change because of the volume of traffic coming into Ballsbridge. I'm not sure what exactly can be done to solve that problem, but scorched earth is unlikely to be the answer.

If all the trees in that area come down, the appearance of the area will be significantly degraded (which in itself is an asset, particularly an area that is quite a focus for international events and tourism, that particular spot on Google Maps is adjacent to two large hotels). That's quite a significant cost - and I can't really see that cost (never mind the actual monetary cost) being worth it.

hmmm · 19-05-2019 7:47pm

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

That's quite a significant cost - and I can't really see that cost (never mind the actual monetary cost) being worth it.

Something has to give here. Either we build better public transport for all the young families who have to buy in the outer suburbs, or we build higher density in the city - both of which are opposed by the wealthy residents of the inner suburbs.

This "urban village" crap has to stop. Go live in a proper village in the countryside if you want quiet streets and cute little bungalows surrounded by acres of greens spaces, there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who are being forced to commute for hours every day because of the selfishness of people in these areas.

OneOfThem Stumbled · 19-05-2019 8:27pm

hmmm wrote: »

Something has to give here. Either we build better public transport for all the young families who have to buy in the outer suburbs, or we build higher density in the city - both of which are opposed by the wealthy residents of the inner suburbs.

This "urban village" crap has to stop. Go live in a proper village in the countryside if you want quiet streets and cute little bungalows surrounded by acres of greens spaces, there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who are being forced to commute for hours every day because of the selfishness of people in these areas.

We need a children's hospital. Stop complaining about the location already.

recedite · 19-05-2019 9:35pm

I'll just point out that many of the more densely populated European cities manage to have both tree-lined streets and a good public transport system.

Cutting down the trees is easy and quick, but is it really going to improve "quality of life" for future generations?

lawred2 · 19-05-2019 9:40pm

recedite wrote: »

I'll just point out that many of the more densely populated European cities manage to have both tree-lined streets and a good public transport system.

Cutting down the trees is easy and quick, but is it really going to improve "quality of life" for future generations?

It might if public transport is improved and trees are replanted!

Do you think wide tree lined streets are gifts from God or something? These European cities you list didn't just wake up one morning with wide tree lined streets. They had to build them.

This is what has to happen here.

recedite · 19-05-2019 9:45pm

lawred2 wrote: »

It might if public transport is improved and trees are replanted!

Do you think wide tree lined streets are gifts from God or something?

Lets face it, they will never be replanted, not after the soil has been tarmacadamed over.
Tree lined streets are not a gift from God, they are the result of good town planning and the efforts of past persons who had foresight (our forebears).

Why must the traffic always increase? In every European country women are producing children at less than the replacement rate.

lawred2 · 19-05-2019 9:54pm

recedite wrote: »

Lets face it, they will never be replanted, not after the soil has been tarmacadamed over.
Tree lined streets are not a gift from God, they are the result of good town planning and the efforts of past persons who had foresight (our forebears).

Why must the traffic always increase? In every European country women are producing children at less than the replacement rate.

Right. So good town planning. Seems that you think that's a thing of the past! We now go with what we got or something like that... Can't apply good town planning from this point forward. That's just something they did in the past

A lot of these European cities were helped by war of course.

prinzeugen · 19-05-2019 11:02pm

jvan wrote: »

Lets face it, the majority of the road side trees that are due to be removed are getting to the end of their useful lives. This coupled with the fact that they aren't exactly growing in ideal soil conditions means that it would be more beneficial to plant more trees in our urban green spaces and set aside urban sites solely for trees and wildlife. I'd imagine given the choice that the birds would prefer not to live in nests in close proximity to double decker buses either.

??? Trees don't have a lifespan. Yes some may become dangerous and need to come down but are you suggesting we cut down every tree that is 50+ years old because they are no longer useful?

And what are the ideal soil conditions for tree growing? What makes a garden in Dublin unsuitable but a park ideal? And you are aware that its not just birds that live in trees?

Also large trees play a big part in damage limitation during bad weather. The dissipate wind & help the soil retain and absorb water.

Without large trees, streets would turn into windy, dry, dusty concrete wastelands. And areas would become more prone to flooding in wet weather.

prinzeugen · 19-05-2019 11:06pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Right. So good town planning. Seems that you think that's a thing of the past! We now go with what we got or something like that... Can't apply good town planning from this point forward. That's just something they did in the past

A lot of these European cities were helped by war of course.

It is a thing of the past unfortunately. Todays planners have not learned from the mistakes of the 50s & 60s.

lawred2 · 19-05-2019 11:15pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

It is a thing of the past unfortunately. Todays planners have not learned from the mistakes of the 50s & 60s.

What were these mistakes and what should have been learned from them?

prinzeugen · 19-05-2019 11:39pm

lawred2 wrote: »

What were these mistakes and what should have been learned from them?

Basically what looks good on paper never works. Take Glasgow, Ballymun and countless other schemes all over Europe such as this -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7043879/Good-riddance-Gomorrah-Residents-win-fight-demolish-Italys-notorious-housing-estate.html

Some planners still believe they can create a utopia when all attempts in the past have failed. Road widening has not been a great success either. Look at the NCR in London. Soulless concrete jungles that bred boredom and in-turn crime.

prunudo · 20-05-2019 7:05am

prinzeugen wrote: »

??? Trees don't have a lifespan. Yes some may become dangerous and need to come down but are you suggesting we cut down every tree that is 50+ years old because they are no longer useful?

And what are the ideal soil conditions for tree growing? What makes a garden in Dublin unsuitable but a park ideal? And you are aware that its not just birds that live in trees?

Also large trees play a big part in damage limitation during bad weather. The dissipate wind & help the soil retain and absorb water.

Without large trees, streets would turn into windy, dry, dusty concrete wastelands. And areas would become more prone to flooding in wet weather.

Of course trees have a life span. Certain species will grow longer than others. Planting a tree in a metre sq pocket of soil between concrete paths, tarmac roads and wall foundations is not ideal. Throw in all the services and pipeworks that are dug in close proximity to the roots its a wonder they survive at all. Nothing against trees in gardens or open spaces but the majority of our streets are too small to accommodate the type of trees that are currently planted there.

AndrewJRenko · 20-05-2019 7:19am

hmmm wrote: »

Felling the trees is required to create wider & safer bus and cycle routes

Or to be more specific, felling the trees is required to create wider and safer bus and cycle routes WHILE maintaining access for all of the private cars driven through there with four empty seats during rush hour.

Give the nimby tree enthusiasts a direct choice between their trees and their cars and see what they choose.

JustAThought · 20-05-2019 7:33am

This road already has a double bus lane and cycle paths - the uglification of the nation continues - lead by practices the nazi government would be proud of. CPO'ing elderly residents gardens and hacking down 100+ year old trees in one of the most beautiful roads and street in Dublin a week after a biodiversity crisis was announced. Just sickening.

lawred2 · 20-05-2019 7:33am

prinzeugen wrote: »

Basically what looks good on paper never works. Take Glasgow, Ballymun and countless other schemes all over Europe such as this -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7043879/Good-riddance-Gomorrah-Residents-win-fight-demolish-Italys-notorious-housing-estate.html

Some planners still believe they can create a utopia when all attempts in the past have failed. Road widening has not been a great success either. Look at the NCR in London. Soulless concrete jungles that bred boredom and in-turn crime.

"What looks good on paper never works"

That's quite simply a laughable contribution.

recedite · 20-05-2019 7:35am

A lot of the cars (most?) are coming in from the outer suburbs.
Before cutting down any more trees, I'd make a simple rule that any car carrying 4 or more people can use the existing bus lanes.
See how that works. If the bus lanes are still free flowing, reduce it to 3 or more people, and so on.
How often have you seen a taxi with only one, or even zero passengers, cruising around in the bus lanes. Why?

lawred2 · 20-05-2019 7:37am

recedite wrote: »

A lot of the cars (most?) are coming in from the outer suburbs.
Before cutting down any more trees, I'd make a simple rule that any car carrying 4 or more people can use the existing bus lanes.
See how that works. If the bus lanes are still free flowing, reduce it to 3 or more people, and so on.
How often have you seen a taxi with only one, or even zero passengers, cruising around in the bus lanes. Why?

I think that would be great. The US has many carpool lanes like this.

Would need to be a minimum 3 pax.

lawred2 · 20-05-2019 8:08am

I'd also add a congestion charge between the canals between 7 and 10 in the morning and 3 and 7 in the evening.

cgcsb · 20-05-2019 1:09pm

JustAThought wrote: »

The UN declares a climate emergency a month ago. even Irelands dud government declares a biodiversity emergency and not two weeks later they want to cut 800 trees in Shankhill (is that old forest in Irish) and hundreds of mature trees that took decades to grow in the southside for a temporary bus lane to be possibly replaced with pencil thin saplings in some areas only.

The slumification of our country continues.

Our children will not know what a mature tree looks like nor why were were so apothetic in the destruction of ourplanet.

Meanwhile diesel guzzling buses gain 5 minutes speed for government apathy & commercial greed.

Yet in third world slums & the likes of Korea and China where they have decimated their environment theyhave the army and volunteers out planting milluons of trees for future generations & to try and reverse the damage they have done.

You couldn't make it up.

Knacker Ireland -greedfirst.

My favourite aspect of this post is that you didn't over-react at all, and that's the main thing.

cgcsb · 20-05-2019 1:12pm

strandroad wrote: »

Don't believe everything you see on social media... Ribbon wrappers were questioned in some areas and admitted that they are marking all trees along the improved routes and also growing in affected gardens without actually validating that they are marked to be removed. It's very much like Dunville Avenues Berlin Wall, exaggeration clearly works.

That's the crux of it, they are actually just ribboning all the trees, regardless of which ones are for the chop. Even in parts where the road is already wide enough, they have their ribbons up.

cgcsb · 20-05-2019 1:13pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Trees can be replanted.. as nimby arguments go this is by up there as one of the weakest

The residents should be told, ok, no tree cutting, we'll take away the car lanes instead. Await reaction.

cgcsb · 20-05-2019 1:15pm

OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

How would widening roads help in this location? I commute through this route and am somewhat dismayed by how long it takes sometimes, and that's entirely due to the number of junctions there are.

This is an example of the location. The traffic at this spot is due to that junction. There is a dedicated bus lane on inbound traffic (which is all that is necessary). The trees in this location currently all have red ribbons on them. If there is an extra lane placed here it will not improve the situation at all as the delays are caused by that intersection.

Let's not get into the territory of "we need a children's hospital, therefore criticism be damned".

The trees with the ribbons on them aren't actually for the chop though. The ribbons are the work of opposition politicians.

cgcsb · 20-05-2019 1:20pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

Basically what looks good on paper never works. Take Glasgow, Ballymun and countless other schemes all over Europe such as this -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7043879/Good-riddance-Gomorrah-Residents-win-fight-demolish-Italys-notorious-housing-estate.html

Some planners still believe they can create a utopia when all attempts in the past have failed. Road widening has not been a great success either. Look at the NCR in London. Soulless concrete jungles that bred boredom and in-turn crime.

You are conflating gratuitous road widening of the UK in the 60s with road widening that is specifically to accommodate sustainable modes of transport.

cgcsb · 20-05-2019 1:22pm

recedite wrote: »

A lot of the cars (most?) are coming in from the outer suburbs.
Before cutting down any more trees, I'd make a simple rule that any car carrying 4 or more people can use the existing bus lanes.
See how that works. If the bus lanes are still free flowing, reduce it to 3 or more people, and so on.
How often have you seen a taxi with only one, or even zero passengers, cruising around in the bus lanes. Why?

Are you going to enforce that?

Skatedude · 20-05-2019 1:45pm

Del2005 wrote: »

We can always plant more trees. We can't keep pushing Dublin out, which removes more land from nature(ish), and we need proper public transport so people have a viable alternative to the car but our roads aren't big enough to accommodate buses. So we either remove a few trees and encourage public transport or like the metro let a vocal minority destroy the benefit for many.

But yeah we'll end up saving a few trees by creating loads of pollution elsewhere.

Won't work, they can knock down every tree in the city and add another thousand buses, but they still assume we all only work mon to fri in the city centre , many,many thousands still need to get to work when public transport doesn't run.

recedite · 20-05-2019 4:39pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Are you going to enforce that?

What, me personally? No.
I'm just making a sensible suggestion.
Then I expect to sit back and watch "the powers that be" continue on their own destructive way.

cgcsb · 20-05-2019 4:57pm

recedite wrote: »

What, me personally? No.
I'm just making a sensible suggestion.
Then I expect to sit back and watch "the powers that be" continue on their own destructive way.

It was a rhetorical question. There is no practical way to enforce it. It's a dull yankee concept anyway and it would mean cars slowing down buses.

prinzeugen · 20-05-2019 9:33pm

cgcsb wrote: »

You are conflating gratuitous road widening of the UK in the 60s with road widening that is specifically to accommodate sustainable modes of transport.

The result is the same though. Concrete jungles with masses of streetlights rather than trees.

lawred2 wrote: »

"What looks good on paper never works"

That's quite simply a laughable contribution.

What is laughable about it? Its fact. If they worked why are the majority of them now demolished?

recedite · 20-05-2019 10:01pm

cgcsb wrote: »

It was a rhetorical question. There is no practical way to enforce it. It's a dull yankee concept anyway and it would mean cars slowing down buses.

How would it not be enforceable?
If you drive in a bus lane, sooner or later you will be pulled over by a Garda, possibly the one in an unmarked car driving behind you.
The 3 passengers would be your free pass. Its not exactly rocket science.

AndrewJRenko · 20-05-2019 10:45pm

recedite wrote: »

How would it not be enforceable?
If you drive in a bus lane, sooner or later you will be pulled over by a Garda, possibly the one in an unmarked car driving behind you.
The 3 passengers would be your free pass. Its not exactly rocket science.

Head down Camden St, Wexford St, Aungier St and George's St any day during rush hour and see how well existing legislation for keeping bus lanes clear is enforced.

recedite · 20-05-2019 10:54pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Head down Camden St, Wexford St, Aungier St and George's St any day during rush hour and see how well existing legislation for keeping bus lanes clear is enforced.

But sure the Gardai have issued thousands of genuine tickets for that.... oh wait.

AndrewJRenko · 20-05-2019 11:00pm

recedite wrote: »

But sure the Gardai have issued thousands of genuine tickets for that.... oh wait.

They really haven't. Levels of enforcement are negligible. Garda cars drive past trucks and vans delivering all the time.

recedite · 22-05-2019 12:00am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

They really haven't. Levels of enforcement are negligible. Garda cars drive past trucks and vans delivering all the time.

I'm not totally familiar with the road, but I know its a busy city centre shopping street. And shops gotta get stocked somehow.
Also when there are lots of side lanes and alleys, and some guy is driving with his indicator on, who's to say whether he is turning off the main road or not?
Lots of chancers will do that for a while before their actual turn.

Your typical bus corridor is more like a long radial route in from the suburbs. Its a more straightforward situation. Either you are in a vehicle that is legal in that lane, or you are not.

prinzeugen · 22-05-2019 1:22am

Thread being made "cyclist" again.

Fairness to the cyclists that shouted "red light" at the other cyclists that went through green pedestrian lights. 6+.

Anyway, I would rather be stuck on a bus, watching squirrels jumping between trees than zipping down a featureless concrete ****ole.

cgcsb · 22-05-2019 1:18pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

Anyway, I would rather be stuck on a bus, watching squirrels jumping between trees than zipping down a featureless concrete ****ole.

Ah stop

Cuddlesworth · 22-05-2019 1:37pm

recedite wrote: »

How would it not be enforceable?
If you drive in a bus lane, sooner or later you will be pulled over by a Garda, possibly the one in an unmarked car driving behind you.
The 3 passengers would be your free pass. Its not exactly rocket science.

You get pulled over. You get issued a 60 Euro fine. You drive on. A lot of the cars you see in those lanes don't care about a 60 quid fine, they depreciate faster then 60 euros a day. And they get caught maybe once a month.

cgcsb · 22-05-2019 1:41pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

You get pulled over. You get issued a 60 Euro fine. You drive on. A lot of the cars you see in those lanes don't care about a 60 quid fine, they depreciate faster then 60 euros a day. And they get caught maybe once a month.

€60 per offence, enforced by anpr would be pretty dissuasive though.

PhilOssophy · 22-05-2019 1:51pm

The hypocrisy of these people is unreal.
"Save our trees, I care about the environment", now hang on while I reverse my Range Rover out of the drive so I can drop my little tubby to school 1/2 a mile down the road before heading to the airport to fly off to my villa.....

recedite · 22-05-2019 4:38pm

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

You get pulled over. You get issued a 60 Euro fine. You drive on. A lot of the cars you see in those lanes don't care about a 60 quid fine, they depreciate faster then 60 euros a day. And they get caught maybe once a month.

There are people who collect large numbers of parking tickets the same way.

But all this stuff is so easily fixed. Just double the amount of the fine with every ticket. Until the end of the year, then start again next year with a clean slate.
Where there's a will, there's a way.

ZeroThreat · 22-05-2019 4:41pm

AMKC wrote: »

I say save the trees. Don't let them be cut down. Lets chain ourselves to them. Who's with me?

I am.

Save our whoary oaks!!!!!

AndrewJRenko · 22-05-2019 9:04pm

recedite wrote: »

There are people who collect large numbers of parking tickets the same way.

But all this stuff is so easily fixed. Just double the amount of the fine with every ticket. Until the end of the year, then start again next year with a clean slate.
Where there's a will, there's a way.

And/or add penalty points to each ticket. 2 points per ticket would add up fairly quickly.

hmmm · 22-05-2019 9:10pm

PhilOssophy wrote: »

The hypocrisy of these people is unreal.

It's just a strategy to keep the outer suburb plebs out. They're happy to have the wealth which comes from having lots of people working, but they are not willing to facilitate them getting to work, or getting home at a reasonable hour, in any way. Tarquin and Seochra don't care about Mary and Pavel who only get to see their kids for 3 hours a day.

It's up to our politicians to have a backbone, but unfortunately they are all pandering to the rich residents of the inner suburbs.

PhilOssophy · 23-05-2019 9:09am

I don't begrudge anybody their wealth as its generally hard earned and they have worked hard to get there, but go live in the sticks if you don't want traffic or capital projects to inconvenience you.

Red ribbons on trees

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